ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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Full support from the green team
Time for crisis management to come to an end and sort this once and for all. Still feel you should take a great big bloody advertisement out in the national press and tell the general public why it has come to this juncture.
Time for crisis management to come to an end and sort this once and for all. Still feel you should take a great big bloody advertisement out in the national press and tell the general public why it has come to this juncture.
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The Sleeping Giant Rumbles
160tothemarker, here's what it's all about:
(for you and any non aviation people reading!-including the press- or new comers)
The IAA as a whole is, amongst other things, responsible for the safe provision of ATS. read more here: http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/about.asp#1
This works right down the chain. Management are responsible for planning and implementation of ANS. Engineering are responsible for the installation and maintenance of Nav Aids and Radar associated equipment etc. Training staff are responsible for keeping ATC up to date on new SARPS etc. I could go on but the buck stops with the Air Traffic Controller.
The Air traffic Controller is ultimately responsible for making sure, in laymans terms, that two aircraft don't smash into eachother (or any other terrible occurence that results in an unavoidable loss of life).
We in ATC staff in Ireland have a joke that every publication from the IAA, be it Staff Notice, new SARP etc, has a tagline at the end of it to divert culpability, i.e "Nothing precludes the Air Traffic Controller from using his/her own initiative to ensure the safety of........etc". This is not a joke. This is a fact. A simple "if it was a dog it would bite you, any which way you look at it" fact.
No amount of information will change the public's, press' or other business interest's view of an accident/incident, despite AAIU or AAIB reports.
Uberlingen isn't just famous for its pipe organs. See: http://hcid.soi.city.ac.uk/research/...ameraReady.pdf
Look what unsafe practises did to those innocent lives, not to mention the unfortunate controller or business associated. And guess where the finger will be pointed if there is a next time. AT ME.
We at the IAA, ATC staff and IMPACT Union members, believe there is a genuine safety case in the undermanaged and overused overtime system which is allowed to fill the gaps in an understaffed company. Note, this is all voluntary overtime, the only kind in the IAA. Before controller fatigue (due to lack of breaks or number of hours worked), Sector Capacity Overloading (due to lack of available staff in the face of no flow control and no Sector Capacity studies despite requests), software shutdown in the soon to be introduced single person sectors which have no capacity study done ("It'll never fail," it has several times)
or some other fore-seen or unfore-seen contributary factor leads to the unspeakable; something needs to be done.
Over the course of the last few years The IAA have gotten full co-operation from their staff as they introduced new software, airspace, rosters, productivity, reduced numbers etc., the list goes on. We have taken a promise that we will be financially "looked after" in the future for all these changes, in the face of huge increases in traffic loads. To illustrate "looked after" the IAA offered us -5% (yes, that is a minus). This is an issue that is being pursued separately.
This is not about money, the current industrial action up to and including next weeks 24 hr stoppage is because of the Controllers DUTY OF CARE to him/herself, his/her employer, aircraft under his/her control and the flying public. The same DUTY OF CARE that stops me coming in to work intoxicated etc. The same DUTY OF CARE that makes me value my job, my fellow controllers jobs, my pilots and their passengers lives and the property of many international companies.
Therefore, I am proud to walk out on Thursday, exercising my right to let nothing preclude me from using my own initiative to ensure the safety of all aircraft and passengers who use Irish Controlled Airspace.
To the travelling public: Sorry for the inconvenience, but this is for you as well as us.
To Mike O' Leary: Show us who is greedy. You won't be charged for flights planned on next Thursday and you won't have to pay for fuel, probably won't have to pay the staff either. So refund your passengers money if they don't fly.
To the IAA: Don't say you didn't see it coming. It's not "biting the hand that feeds you" it's "reaping what you sow".
For those who are interested I earned just over 84k last year. This includes:
*my base salary
*my shift allowance for unsociable hours
*my extra increment for expert duties (which i carried out)
*all payments for working bank holidays including Christmas Day, that's 5 in a row now
*all call-ins, that's overtime
*lump sums due to me for the national pay deal (which my employer had to be taken to court to be enforced to pay me)
In return for this I have:
*provided 12 months work to the best of my ability
*had 0 uncertified sick days
*1 certified absence of 3 days
*took 1 day Force Majeure due to hospitalisation of a child
*received 31 days leave (27 taken so far, 22 of which are block leave) 31 might sound high but if any 9-5'ers are listening that's what you get when you add in bank holidays, I don't get them.
Any pension contributions i get are earned due to a stressfull job and shift work that's medicaly proven to shorten my lifespan, saving the company in the long run.
Hope this clears the air. I am never going to stand down on this issue untill the IAA are forced to give us the Staff we need. And if they need to pay us ridiculous sums for overtime it's because they still need us to volunteer for it.
THORISGOD Thanks you for your patience, this took a bloody hour to write.
(for you and any non aviation people reading!-including the press- or new comers)
The IAA as a whole is, amongst other things, responsible for the safe provision of ATS. read more here: http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/about.asp#1
This works right down the chain. Management are responsible for planning and implementation of ANS. Engineering are responsible for the installation and maintenance of Nav Aids and Radar associated equipment etc. Training staff are responsible for keeping ATC up to date on new SARPS etc. I could go on but the buck stops with the Air Traffic Controller.
The Air traffic Controller is ultimately responsible for making sure, in laymans terms, that two aircraft don't smash into eachother (or any other terrible occurence that results in an unavoidable loss of life).
We in ATC staff in Ireland have a joke that every publication from the IAA, be it Staff Notice, new SARP etc, has a tagline at the end of it to divert culpability, i.e "Nothing precludes the Air Traffic Controller from using his/her own initiative to ensure the safety of........etc". This is not a joke. This is a fact. A simple "if it was a dog it would bite you, any which way you look at it" fact.
No amount of information will change the public's, press' or other business interest's view of an accident/incident, despite AAIU or AAIB reports.
Uberlingen isn't just famous for its pipe organs. See: http://hcid.soi.city.ac.uk/research/...ameraReady.pdf
Look what unsafe practises did to those innocent lives, not to mention the unfortunate controller or business associated. And guess where the finger will be pointed if there is a next time. AT ME.
We at the IAA, ATC staff and IMPACT Union members, believe there is a genuine safety case in the undermanaged and overused overtime system which is allowed to fill the gaps in an understaffed company. Note, this is all voluntary overtime, the only kind in the IAA. Before controller fatigue (due to lack of breaks or number of hours worked), Sector Capacity Overloading (due to lack of available staff in the face of no flow control and no Sector Capacity studies despite requests), software shutdown in the soon to be introduced single person sectors which have no capacity study done ("It'll never fail," it has several times)
or some other fore-seen or unfore-seen contributary factor leads to the unspeakable; something needs to be done.
Over the course of the last few years The IAA have gotten full co-operation from their staff as they introduced new software, airspace, rosters, productivity, reduced numbers etc., the list goes on. We have taken a promise that we will be financially "looked after" in the future for all these changes, in the face of huge increases in traffic loads. To illustrate "looked after" the IAA offered us -5% (yes, that is a minus). This is an issue that is being pursued separately.
This is not about money, the current industrial action up to and including next weeks 24 hr stoppage is because of the Controllers DUTY OF CARE to him/herself, his/her employer, aircraft under his/her control and the flying public. The same DUTY OF CARE that stops me coming in to work intoxicated etc. The same DUTY OF CARE that makes me value my job, my fellow controllers jobs, my pilots and their passengers lives and the property of many international companies.
Therefore, I am proud to walk out on Thursday, exercising my right to let nothing preclude me from using my own initiative to ensure the safety of all aircraft and passengers who use Irish Controlled Airspace.
To the travelling public: Sorry for the inconvenience, but this is for you as well as us.
To Mike O' Leary: Show us who is greedy. You won't be charged for flights planned on next Thursday and you won't have to pay for fuel, probably won't have to pay the staff either. So refund your passengers money if they don't fly.
To the IAA: Don't say you didn't see it coming. It's not "biting the hand that feeds you" it's "reaping what you sow".
For those who are interested I earned just over 84k last year. This includes:
*my base salary
*my shift allowance for unsociable hours
*my extra increment for expert duties (which i carried out)
*all payments for working bank holidays including Christmas Day, that's 5 in a row now
*all call-ins, that's overtime
*lump sums due to me for the national pay deal (which my employer had to be taken to court to be enforced to pay me)
In return for this I have:
*provided 12 months work to the best of my ability
*had 0 uncertified sick days
*1 certified absence of 3 days
*took 1 day Force Majeure due to hospitalisation of a child
*received 31 days leave (27 taken so far, 22 of which are block leave) 31 might sound high but if any 9-5'ers are listening that's what you get when you add in bank holidays, I don't get them.
Any pension contributions i get are earned due to a stressfull job and shift work that's medicaly proven to shorten my lifespan, saving the company in the long run.
Hope this clears the air. I am never going to stand down on this issue untill the IAA are forced to give us the Staff we need. And if they need to pay us ridiculous sums for overtime it's because they still need us to volunteer for it.
THORISGOD Thanks you for your patience, this took a bloody hour to write.
Last edited by thorisgod; 23rd Feb 2008 at 03:33. Reason: forgot something
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thorisgod,
Good, straight, illuminatng post. The sad fact is that, despite being in layman's terms, you will have lost most of Joe Public and the Hack's after the second paragraph. Call me cynical but neither the public nor (most of) the press see or care to see past the soundbites.
Hang tough guys and don't worry too much about winning the PR battle.
Good, straight, illuminatng post. The sad fact is that, despite being in layman's terms, you will have lost most of Joe Public and the Hack's after the second paragraph. Call me cynical but neither the public nor (most of) the press see or care to see past the soundbites.
Hang tough guys and don't worry too much about winning the PR battle.
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Fatigue
The following is extracted from an article titled “The Runway and You” by Ian Wigmore, published in Eurocontrol’s “Hindsight No 6”, January 2008 pp. 22-24.
-----------
“Seatle/Tacoma International Airport, July 8, 2001
A controller issued a taxi clearance to a Boeing MD-80 to cross a runway 34R at the same time that a Boeing 767 was on short finals to the same runway. The pilots in the landing aircraft reported applying maximum braking to avoid a collision with the crossing aircraft, and the 767 stopped only 810 feet short of the MD-80. On the night of the incident, the controller was working his third shift in 2 days, with an 8-hour rest period between shifts. The day before the incident, he had worked from 1400 to 2200, slept between 4 and 5 hours at home, worked from 0555 to 1355 the day of the incident, slept 3 hours at home and then returned to work the incident shift, which began at 2245. The controller stated that he tried to avoid midnight shifts whenever possible because of fatigue; at the time of the incident he was feeling tired, in part because he knew he “… had to be up all night long on a double quick turn around.”
Denver International Airport, September 25, 2001
A Boeing 757 departed runway 08 in night-time VMC. Runway 08 had been closed because of construction workers and equipment operating near its departure end and, during takeoff, the aircraft passed within 32 feet of lights that had been erected to illuminate the construction area. The controller handling the 757 was aware of the runway closure and had instructed the crew to taxi to a different runway. However, after the crew requested takeoff on runway 08, the controller agreed and instructed the crew to taxi and takeoff from the closed runway. The controller had worked a shift at the tower from 0530 until 1330 the day before the incident and then had a 9 hour rest period during which she obtained between 60 and 90 minutes of sleep. She then returned to work the incident shift, which began at 2230. When asked why the incident occurred, the controller stated that she was “… probably tired, not alert enough.”
LOS ANGELES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, AUGUST 19, 2004
A controller cleared a Boeing 737 to taxi onto and take off from runway 24L at the same time that a Boeing 747 had been cleared to land on the same runway and was on a short finals. The pilots in the landing aircraft saw the 737 taxi onto the runway and discontinued their approach about 12 seconds before the impending collision would have occurred, passing approximately 200 feet above the 737 during the go-around. The controller had worked a shift the previous evening from 1530 until 2330, then went home and slept between 5 and 6 hours before returning to work the incident shift, which began at 0730.The controller described the portion of his shift before the incident as a “hard day’ and attributed his error, in part, to fatigue.
CHICAGO OHARE
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, MARCH 23, 2006
A controller cleared an Airbus A320 to cross runway 4L and, less than 15 seconds later, cleared a Boeing 737 to take off on the same runway. The pilots in the departing 737 observed the A320 moving toward the runway, rejected the takeoff, and stopped before reaching the taxiway intersection where the A320 was to cross. The controller had worked an 8-hour shift the previous day until 2130 and was then off duty for 9 hours. Because of commuting and personal activities, he slept only about 4 hours before returning to work for the incident shift, which began at 0630. He reported that he felt “semi-rested” during his shift but was “not as sharp as he could have been.” He stated that the second shift had been a quick turnaround with “no coffee.”
The effects of fatigue on controller performance have been under study in USA for many years, and the issue was raised again following the fatal accident involving a Comair CRJ-100 which crashed while attempting to take off from the wrong runway at Lexington Blue Grass airport on August 27, 2006. During its investigation, the NTSB learned that the air traffic controller who cleared the accident aircraft for takeoff had worked a shift from 0630 to 1430 the day before the accident, then returned 9 hours later to work the accident shift from 2330 until the time of the accident at 0607 the next morning. The controller stated that his only sleep in the 24 hours before the accident was a 2-hour nap the previous afternoon between these two shifts. In its final report on this accident, the NTSB concluded that the controller did not detect the flight crew’s attempt to take off on the wrong runway because, instead of monitoring the airplane’s departure, he performed a lower-priority administrative task that could have waited until he transferred responsibility for the airplane to the next ATC facility. The extent to which fatigue was a factor in the controller’s decision could not be established.”
---------
Typical turnarounds on the current Dublin roster include
1400-2230/0830-1800 or
1400-2230/0700-1400
and night duties are preceded as follows,
0630-1400/2330-0700 or
0600-1400/2330-0700.
These duties are part of a 5/3 roster.
One of the recent proposed rosters (6/3, 6/3, 7/2 sequence) included a turnaround of 0600-1200/2130-0800.
Draw your own conclusions.
Yours.
FoxyTotty
-----------
“Seatle/Tacoma International Airport, July 8, 2001
A controller issued a taxi clearance to a Boeing MD-80 to cross a runway 34R at the same time that a Boeing 767 was on short finals to the same runway. The pilots in the landing aircraft reported applying maximum braking to avoid a collision with the crossing aircraft, and the 767 stopped only 810 feet short of the MD-80. On the night of the incident, the controller was working his third shift in 2 days, with an 8-hour rest period between shifts. The day before the incident, he had worked from 1400 to 2200, slept between 4 and 5 hours at home, worked from 0555 to 1355 the day of the incident, slept 3 hours at home and then returned to work the incident shift, which began at 2245. The controller stated that he tried to avoid midnight shifts whenever possible because of fatigue; at the time of the incident he was feeling tired, in part because he knew he “… had to be up all night long on a double quick turn around.”
Denver International Airport, September 25, 2001
A Boeing 757 departed runway 08 in night-time VMC. Runway 08 had been closed because of construction workers and equipment operating near its departure end and, during takeoff, the aircraft passed within 32 feet of lights that had been erected to illuminate the construction area. The controller handling the 757 was aware of the runway closure and had instructed the crew to taxi to a different runway. However, after the crew requested takeoff on runway 08, the controller agreed and instructed the crew to taxi and takeoff from the closed runway. The controller had worked a shift at the tower from 0530 until 1330 the day before the incident and then had a 9 hour rest period during which she obtained between 60 and 90 minutes of sleep. She then returned to work the incident shift, which began at 2230. When asked why the incident occurred, the controller stated that she was “… probably tired, not alert enough.”
LOS ANGELES INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, AUGUST 19, 2004
A controller cleared a Boeing 737 to taxi onto and take off from runway 24L at the same time that a Boeing 747 had been cleared to land on the same runway and was on a short finals. The pilots in the landing aircraft saw the 737 taxi onto the runway and discontinued their approach about 12 seconds before the impending collision would have occurred, passing approximately 200 feet above the 737 during the go-around. The controller had worked a shift the previous evening from 1530 until 2330, then went home and slept between 5 and 6 hours before returning to work the incident shift, which began at 0730.The controller described the portion of his shift before the incident as a “hard day’ and attributed his error, in part, to fatigue.
CHICAGO OHARE
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT, MARCH 23, 2006
A controller cleared an Airbus A320 to cross runway 4L and, less than 15 seconds later, cleared a Boeing 737 to take off on the same runway. The pilots in the departing 737 observed the A320 moving toward the runway, rejected the takeoff, and stopped before reaching the taxiway intersection where the A320 was to cross. The controller had worked an 8-hour shift the previous day until 2130 and was then off duty for 9 hours. Because of commuting and personal activities, he slept only about 4 hours before returning to work for the incident shift, which began at 0630. He reported that he felt “semi-rested” during his shift but was “not as sharp as he could have been.” He stated that the second shift had been a quick turnaround with “no coffee.”
The effects of fatigue on controller performance have been under study in USA for many years, and the issue was raised again following the fatal accident involving a Comair CRJ-100 which crashed while attempting to take off from the wrong runway at Lexington Blue Grass airport on August 27, 2006. During its investigation, the NTSB learned that the air traffic controller who cleared the accident aircraft for takeoff had worked a shift from 0630 to 1430 the day before the accident, then returned 9 hours later to work the accident shift from 2330 until the time of the accident at 0607 the next morning. The controller stated that his only sleep in the 24 hours before the accident was a 2-hour nap the previous afternoon between these two shifts. In its final report on this accident, the NTSB concluded that the controller did not detect the flight crew’s attempt to take off on the wrong runway because, instead of monitoring the airplane’s departure, he performed a lower-priority administrative task that could have waited until he transferred responsibility for the airplane to the next ATC facility. The extent to which fatigue was a factor in the controller’s decision could not be established.”
---------
Typical turnarounds on the current Dublin roster include
1400-2230/0830-1800 or
1400-2230/0700-1400
and night duties are preceded as follows,
0630-1400/2330-0700 or
0600-1400/2330-0700.
These duties are part of a 5/3 roster.
One of the recent proposed rosters (6/3, 6/3, 7/2 sequence) included a turnaround of 0600-1200/2130-0800.
Draw your own conclusions.
Yours.
FoxyTotty
Last edited by FoxyTotty; 23rd Feb 2008 at 09:41.
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Thanks Fox totty
For neutrals who maybe reading this thread its situatons like FT has published that we are trying to avoid.
This dispute is about safety first and foremost...as someone has eluded we as atcos have a duty of care to all those who use our service..for this reason we will strike next thursday in the hope that the IAA will quit looking at the "bottom line"
and live up to their own customer charter and help us to operate a SAFE expiditous and orderly flow of traffic...we must take a stand now before a situation like Uberlingen re-occurs in Irish airspace....
yours
54N15W
"What price a life?"
For neutrals who maybe reading this thread its situatons like FT has published that we are trying to avoid.
This dispute is about safety first and foremost...as someone has eluded we as atcos have a duty of care to all those who use our service..for this reason we will strike next thursday in the hope that the IAA will quit looking at the "bottom line"
and live up to their own customer charter and help us to operate a SAFE expiditous and orderly flow of traffic...we must take a stand now before a situation like Uberlingen re-occurs in Irish airspace....yours
54N15W
"What price a life?"
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Small Gesture of Defiance
As one of the 363,900 "overpaid and underworked" Public Servants that MOL likes to bash repeatedly Norby has decided that he will NEVER fly rIAAnair ( love that comicaliam) EVER AGAIN and would call on his colleagues in ATC (worldwide) and indeed Public Servants everywhere to do the same.
Norby WILL NOT be doing overtime irrespective of how much money is on offer until IAA management apologise unequivocally for the slander and libel that ATCO's have been subjected to and until whoever it is in management that breached the confidentiallity rules of the IR process is named and dealt with.
Norby WILL NOT be doing overtime irrespective of how much money is on offer until IAA management apologise unequivocally for the slander and libel that ATCO's have been subjected to and until whoever it is in management that breached the confidentiallity rules of the IR process is named and dealt with.
Last edited by norby; 23rd Feb 2008 at 11:56. Reason: spelling
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rIAAnair
Sorry Norby,
But I will continue to use Ryanair. They are a business model to be admired even if they have not got a drop of humanity. They have opened up routes of travel that were previously beyond most people, myself included. Hurting them financialy only hurts Joe Public.
Also I have already booked holiday flights this summer, just have to get the leave. My wife would kill me if I boycotted.
But I will continue to use Ryanair. They are a business model to be admired even if they have not got a drop of humanity. They have opened up routes of travel that were previously beyond most people, myself included. Hurting them financialy only hurts Joe Public.
Also I have already booked holiday flights this summer, just have to get the leave. My wife would kill me if I boycotted.
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It seems that the Labour court will be making a request to Impact to postpone the industrial action scheduled for next thursday until the negotiations are finished. Seemingly they feel that talks with effectively a gun pointed at management's head would impede the process.
I for one hope that impact tell them where to go. For long enough has the process been drawn out by management's delay tactics. No harm in a little added incentive. It might make them move a little faster in trying to resolve the problem.
I for one hope that impact tell them where to go. For long enough has the process been drawn out by management's delay tactics. No harm in a little added incentive. It might make them move a little faster in trying to resolve the problem.
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Chiglet,
I know but that is just Dee Mac.
------
thorisgod,
While I commend your honnesty, you once again shot yourself on the foot bu saying things like;
That will really boots your position with the 9 to 5 worker who has to either accept no pay for a bank holiday or take one of the statutary leave days they get.
What you say is common practice in other providers but it is not something that you want to hang a "we are not well treated" explanation to the general public on.
Going to single sector staffing will free up how many people?
-----------
Radar,
The problem is that every stoppage has been because someone went sick and no one would come in to cover their shift. The public have not had many examples of people ot doing overtime and the place closing down even when no one went sick.
Thus the public perception is that the system can work (not at full capacity perhaps) without overtime and that it takes someone to go sick and at the exact same time someone else to exercise their right not to do overtime to close it down.
Regards,
DFC
I know but that is just Dee Mac.
------
thorisgod,
While I commend your honnesty, you once again shot yourself on the foot bu saying things like;
*received 31 days leave (27 taken so far, 22 of which are block leave) 31 might sound high but if any 9-5'ers are listening that's what you get when you add in bank holidays, I don't get them.
What you say is common practice in other providers but it is not something that you want to hang a "we are not well treated" explanation to the general public on.
Going to single sector staffing will free up how many people?
-----------
Radar,
Overtime cannont be eliminated totally. You cannot do manpower plannig to the point where every eventuality is covered. When you rely on it as a matter of course rather than to deal with force majeur ....... you have a real problem. Then again, that's been said often enough already on this thread.
Thus the public perception is that the system can work (not at full capacity perhaps) without overtime and that it takes someone to go sick and at the exact same time someone else to exercise their right not to do overtime to close it down.
Regards,
DFC
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D'OH
Mrs. Norby has just reminded him that he too has rIAAnair flights booked for summer so unless he can arrange alternative transport his boycott won't start til then (in the interests of domestic peace)
Thorisgod
I have no problem with that (see above) I'm doing what I feel is right for me.
" They are a business model to be admired even if they have not got a drop of humanity"
Might be good as a passenger if you can ignore the deceptions, hidden costs, the rudeness and the F**K you attitude to customer services but the flip side is the dictatorial "money is God" management style, low pay, no union recognition and high staff turn over.
I'm probably not alone in thinking That the IAA admire this business model too and as we see, the pair of them are well and truly in bed together and I'm sick of the pair of them screwing US!
Thorisgod
I have no problem with that (see above) I'm doing what I feel is right for me.
" They are a business model to be admired even if they have not got a drop of humanity"
Might be good as a passenger if you can ignore the deceptions, hidden costs, the rudeness and the F**K you attitude to customer services but the flip side is the dictatorial "money is God" management style, low pay, no union recognition and high staff turn over.
I'm probably not alone in thinking That the IAA admire this business model too and as we see, the pair of them are well and truly in bed together and I'm sick of the pair of them screwing US!
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DFC why are you not giving out about Aerlingus's proposed strike action on monday. This surely is upsetting the public too. Surely you should offer up your comments to there Management as you seem to be highly experienced in IR troubleshooting.
I'm also adding you to my ignore list as your ill-informed posts don't actually add to the topic more incite other posters as has been seen in other topics you have commented on. Must be nice to be so well liked on these forums.
You ask questions you don't listen to the informed answer's you get.
You whine on about how you know this and that i for one think your GOD himself as you seem to know so much about everything either that or your my wife who also knows everything.
It could have been so different if you had actually taken the time to learn more about what has been going on rather than ranting on about what your opinion of what is going on. The two are so far apart its unreal.
How many staff will we gain in Dublin with the proposed change to single man sectors THE ANSWER IS NONE. As we haven't currently got the staff to open FIS or Holding as it is so the two that would be freed up will just move sideways to open these positions that at the moment with Dual man sectors are meant to be open. And don't say this will be a better use of manpower as management want to add in departure controllers and a two holding controllers so we still need two more staff per shift to cover that.
I for one am not looking forward to single man sectors as the number of times i have been saved by having the extra pair of eyes watching the sector is invaluable. The distraction of having all those phone calls on top of your current role will detract from the controllers concentration.
I'm also adding you to my ignore list as your ill-informed posts don't actually add to the topic more incite other posters as has been seen in other topics you have commented on. Must be nice to be so well liked on these forums.
You ask questions you don't listen to the informed answer's you get.
You whine on about how you know this and that i for one think your GOD himself as you seem to know so much about everything either that or your my wife who also knows everything.
It could have been so different if you had actually taken the time to learn more about what has been going on rather than ranting on about what your opinion of what is going on. The two are so far apart its unreal.
How many staff will we gain in Dublin with the proposed change to single man sectors THE ANSWER IS NONE. As we haven't currently got the staff to open FIS or Holding as it is so the two that would be freed up will just move sideways to open these positions that at the moment with Dual man sectors are meant to be open. And don't say this will be a better use of manpower as management want to add in departure controllers and a two holding controllers so we still need two more staff per shift to cover that.
I for one am not looking forward to single man sectors as the number of times i have been saved by having the extra pair of eyes watching the sector is invaluable. The distraction of having all those phone calls on top of your current role will detract from the controllers concentration.
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FoxyTotty,
Interesting examples.
Only having a 2 hour nap in the time between that early shift and starting a night shift shows that the controller operated while unfit.
That was the controller's decision and unless you want the IAA to go home and tuck you up in bed then ATCO's have to take responsibility for either;
Ensuring that the obtain suficient sleep so as to start shif suficiently rested.
or
Don't start shift.
It is a safety issue.
Since the IAA have had people working and early, then short rest followed by a night for decades, it is very hard to turn round now and say that it is dangerous. Furthermore, when asked the staff said that they preferred to have a short rest in the middle provided they got more time off at the end.
Having 9 hours off and only sleeping 4 due to commuting and personal activities. - Living too far away from work?
NATS had the posibility of such problems - people travelling long distances home after night shifts. These people had moved in advance of the Swanwick opening. The answer - Hotel available if you want it. Simple answer. Put the onus straight back n the ATCO to turn up fully rested and not to risk motorway driving while fatigued.
I must admit that 6 on and 3 off is one of the better systems I have seen - with most of the night shift moving to various day shifts to bolster the day staff requirements. Much study into different systems never really came up with much better in terms of numbers and both management and staff satisfaction.
Regards,
DFC
Interesting examples.
Only having a 2 hour nap in the time between that early shift and starting a night shift shows that the controller operated while unfit.
That was the controller's decision and unless you want the IAA to go home and tuck you up in bed then ATCO's have to take responsibility for either;
Ensuring that the obtain suficient sleep so as to start shif suficiently rested.
or
Don't start shift.
It is a safety issue.
Since the IAA have had people working and early, then short rest followed by a night for decades, it is very hard to turn round now and say that it is dangerous. Furthermore, when asked the staff said that they preferred to have a short rest in the middle provided they got more time off at the end.
Having 9 hours off and only sleeping 4 due to commuting and personal activities. - Living too far away from work?
NATS had the posibility of such problems - people travelling long distances home after night shifts. These people had moved in advance of the Swanwick opening. The answer - Hotel available if you want it. Simple answer. Put the onus straight back n the ATCO to turn up fully rested and not to risk motorway driving while fatigued.
I must admit that 6 on and 3 off is one of the better systems I have seen - with most of the night shift moving to various day shifts to bolster the day staff requirements. Much study into different systems never really came up with much better in terms of numbers and both management and staff satisfaction.
Regards,
DFC
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rIAAnair (thanks comicaliam)
It's quite obvious that ryanair and the IAA are in bed together, but Adee thinks the many leaks are caused by a real bedspring 
Adee wonders what odds Paddy Power would give on an IAA exec finding a comfy place on the ryanair board in the not too distant future?
WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.....WE'RE WATCHING......
Adee wonders what odds Paddy Power would give on an IAA exec finding a comfy place on the ryanair board in the not too distant future?
WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE.....WE'RE WATCHING......
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DFC et al, we all know that the 6 and 3 roster in the UK is a very different roster, it takes 10 days to do a cycle. There are two periods of 24hrs off during the cycle between the E's and L's, and between the L's and N's. This pattern also involves your first duty being a E duty which mucks up your last rest day.
Personally speaking I would love to see IAA mismanagement try to implement such a work friendly (to an extent) roster. I am sure it is tough to work 6 duties on but almost 4 days off is good recompense, NATS also has a decent safety regulator who isnt in bed with mismanagement and protects the staff and the travelling public from abuses.
The IAA is getting a bargain having a 5 and 3 roster which takes 8 days to complete a cycle compared to a 6 and 3 which takes 10 days.
Personally speaking I would love to see IAA mismanagement try to implement such a work friendly (to an extent) roster. I am sure it is tough to work 6 duties on but almost 4 days off is good recompense, NATS also has a decent safety regulator who isnt in bed with mismanagement and protects the staff and the travelling public from abuses.
The IAA is getting a bargain having a 5 and 3 roster which takes 8 days to complete a cycle compared to a 6 and 3 which takes 10 days.
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DFC reminds me of a guy who escorted me around Swanwick on a visit there once. His business card had the modest title "ATC Expert". Turns out he'd never been a controller.
To the rest of you, wish you all the best with your plight.
From past experience in a former life, I would caution against 2 things though.
1. Forget the full page adds trying to get the public on side - it doen't matter what you say you will not get any meaningful approval from them. It is human nature for them to think that you want something they are not getting. Continue your consistent but firm action.
2. Not sure about your Industrial Relations Commission's powers but be prepared for the Commissioner to rule that you can be expected to work a "reasonable" amount of overtime. When our Association asked for a ruling on "reasonable", the Commissioner set it at one additional shift per month.
As for rIAAnair's business model - thats the reason pilots, controllers and other aviation workers are in his sort of predicament. The MOL's of the world convince the travelling public that they can go on their annual leave for 2 pound fifty then thump the ANSP table edmanding cuts to staffing and costs so thar he can line his pockets.
To the rest of you, wish you all the best with your plight.
From past experience in a former life, I would caution against 2 things though.
1. Forget the full page adds trying to get the public on side - it doen't matter what you say you will not get any meaningful approval from them. It is human nature for them to think that you want something they are not getting. Continue your consistent but firm action.
2. Not sure about your Industrial Relations Commission's powers but be prepared for the Commissioner to rule that you can be expected to work a "reasonable" amount of overtime. When our Association asked for a ruling on "reasonable", the Commissioner set it at one additional shift per month.
As for rIAAnair's business model - thats the reason pilots, controllers and other aviation workers are in his sort of predicament. The MOL's of the world convince the travelling public that they can go on their annual leave for 2 pound fifty then thump the ANSP table edmanding cuts to staffing and costs so thar he can line his pockets.
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Single Sectors
DFC, I will gladly work single person sectors when a proper safety case has been completed and definitive sector capacities are decided upon.
I will also welcome any staff this frees up (probably not much) as instead of 7 2man sectors we will now have 2 2man sectors and 8 to 10 single man sectors.
This a SAFETY issue. You might like to fly under unsafe conditions but no-one else does.
I will also welcome any staff this frees up (probably not much) as instead of 7 2man sectors we will now have 2 2man sectors and 8 to 10 single man sectors.
This a SAFETY issue. You might like to fly under unsafe conditions but no-one else does.
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Fao Dfc
rather than ignore you DFC i'm going to try and educate you, starting with your last post. There have been plenty of responses to your previous posts.
I agree obviously that the IAA aren't needed to tuck me up in bed, however life isn't always as simple as i've to work i'm going to sleep for X hours. Unless i don't marry and don't have children there's bound to be something to get in the way of full 10 hours kip between early and night duty. It's all part of the work life balance that controllers are requesting.
Granted i can see the logic of don't work if your too tired on safety grounds but everyones tired all the time these days thanks to being overworked and understaffed, not sure how long i'd have a job if i regularly trotted out the i'm too sleepy line.
Also the fact that we're up at 3 in the morning working ful tilt probably messes up the circadian rhythem so we're F**ked either way.
The reason the early followed by short rest followed by night is a problem more so now than "decades" ago is due to the huge increase in traffic. Perhaps in your vast experience in all aspect of everything everywhere would have alerted you to this occurance.
Are you sure you're not management??? it is decades since i've seen them look at a radar screen let alone work one.
"Having 9 hours off and only sleeping 4 due to commuting and personal activities. - Living too far away from work?"
Are you seriously suggesting that we all live next door to work?? there's a feckin' airport there in most cases how would we sleep with that noise??? ?I'd always be to tired for work.
Also not very work life balance friendly making all familial decisions based on my work?? what if the missus works miles away? Although if you're living "decades" ago maybe womens lib hasn't reached your kneck of the woods yet.
And as for a sleeping in Hotels, who pays?? the IAA wouldn't. We'd certainly need Ryanair/IAA* wages for that. Anyway again they're S**T and beside an airport.
* it worked for sinn fein/ IRA why not just amalgamate them???
I agree obviously that the IAA aren't needed to tuck me up in bed, however life isn't always as simple as i've to work i'm going to sleep for X hours. Unless i don't marry and don't have children there's bound to be something to get in the way of full 10 hours kip between early and night duty. It's all part of the work life balance that controllers are requesting.
Granted i can see the logic of don't work if your too tired on safety grounds but everyones tired all the time these days thanks to being overworked and understaffed, not sure how long i'd have a job if i regularly trotted out the i'm too sleepy line.
Also the fact that we're up at 3 in the morning working ful tilt probably messes up the circadian rhythem so we're F**ked either way.
The reason the early followed by short rest followed by night is a problem more so now than "decades" ago is due to the huge increase in traffic. Perhaps in your vast experience in all aspect of everything everywhere would have alerted you to this occurance.
Are you sure you're not management??? it is decades since i've seen them look at a radar screen let alone work one.
"Having 9 hours off and only sleeping 4 due to commuting and personal activities. - Living too far away from work?"
Are you seriously suggesting that we all live next door to work?? there's a feckin' airport there in most cases how would we sleep with that noise??? ?I'd always be to tired for work.
Also not very work life balance friendly making all familial decisions based on my work?? what if the missus works miles away? Although if you're living "decades" ago maybe womens lib hasn't reached your kneck of the woods yet.
And as for a sleeping in Hotels, who pays?? the IAA wouldn't. We'd certainly need Ryanair/IAA* wages for that. Anyway again they're S**T and beside an airport.
* it worked for sinn fein/ IRA why not just amalgamate them???