Another nail in the MACC morale coffin.
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That's probably becuase the NATS Intranet is a company owned site and they might not like the apple cart upset by staff 
The private NATS Forum here on PPRuNe is not company run or influenced so there is some modicum of 'free speech' there
The private NATS Forum here on PPRuNe is not company run or influenced so there is some modicum of 'free speech' there
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I have seen some very unfavourable comments on the Intranet and as far as I can see none have been removed or posters admonished for stating their position. If people feel NATS is that bad they should try working in the real commercial world!
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Gonzo is correct - the sub-roster is a dream, 4 days a week (or 28 hours), no weekends, and the potential to work at least 4 AAVA's a month for at least £2000 extra before tax - and there are 10 people/month doing that!
Looking at that a different way, those 10 people COULD be working 400 hours/month, a difference of 120 hours or 3 ATCO's! Don't knock it guys!
Looking at that a different way, those 10 people COULD be working 400 hours/month, a difference of 120 hours or 3 ATCO's! Don't knock it guys!
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I and several colleagues have posted some disparaging remarks about the current pension debacle on the Intranet.
Oddly enough they were not favourable to the management, and were actually quite derogatory, mainly in the hope that it would elicit some response (I despair at what appears to be a lack of passion over this issue in particular from the management who are trying to cut benefits yet trot out the same mundane half truths to justify their stance).
To be fair, the comments have not been pulled and no boll
king issued. However that just further amplifies my belief that management believe they can ge away with anything regardless of facts or the feelings of those it will affect and that they believe they can just steamroller the eomplyees!
Oddly enough they were not favourable to the management, and were actually quite derogatory, mainly in the hope that it would elicit some response (I despair at what appears to be a lack of passion over this issue in particular from the management who are trying to cut benefits yet trot out the same mundane half truths to justify their stance).
To be fair, the comments have not been pulled and no boll
king issued. However that just further amplifies my belief that management believe they can ge away with anything regardless of facts or the feelings of those it will affect and that they believe they can just steamroller the eomplyees!
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Sub Rosters are not all the same, some are not good and people cannot wait to get off them back to the normal watch roster. They can be far more tiring due to the times of shifts so whilst Heathrows may be good others are dire.
I seem to remember that it was agreed a few years back between both management and unions that everyone should be able to take 3 cycles leave during the designated summer months, perhaps my memory is failing me or it has been changed .
I seem to remember that it was agreed a few years back between both management and unions that everyone should be able to take 3 cycles leave during the designated summer months, perhaps my memory is failing me or it has been changed .
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Lots of interesting stuff here but I'm still waiting for Mahaba to come back and justify the original post. Maybe he's on the sub roster working all of those AAVAs. 
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Why would The Red Barron get excited about the MACC sub-roster? Allegedly it was agreed by the unions to match staff attendances to traffic levels. Now, according to the Eurocontrol complexity document, MACC comes in at No.5, (TC No.1), LACC at No.28 ( Way down there). Surely the staff at this fairly complex unit (EGCC) should enjoy enhanced relief to cope with what must be intense weekday traffic levels? Also in a profession where safety is paramount, we cannot afford to have fatigued ATCOs on duty?
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Why would The Red Barron get excited about the MACC sub-roster? Allegedly it was agreed by the unions to match staff attendances to traffic levels. Now, according to the Eurocontrol complexity document, MACC comes in at No.5, (TC No.1), LACC at No.28 ( Way down there). Surely the staff at this fairly complex unit (EGCC) should enjoy enhanced relief to cope with what must be intense weekday traffic levels? Also in a profession where safety is paramount, we cannot afford to have fatigued ATCOs on duty?
Spot on Zooker. So how come it has already been suggested that those on the roster-and apparently there are up to 10 of them at any time-just use it to maximise AAVAs at what obviously is a busy and complex unit. I guess fatigue goes out of the window where cash is concerned?
I still also can't understand why apparently the 5th most complex and busiest unit in Europe hardly ever puts on a regulation(except for S29, 1st thing in the morning for about an hour)
You guys really must be the best. 
or my Watch Supervisors have a lot to learn about regulations.
Spot on Zooker. So how come it has already been suggested that those on the roster-and apparently there are up to 10 of them at any time-just use it to maximise AAVAs at what obviously is a busy and complex unit. I guess fatigue goes out of the window where cash is concerned?
I still also can't understand why apparently the 5th most complex and busiest unit in Europe hardly ever puts on a regulation(except for S29, 1st thing in the morning for about an hour)
You guys really must be the best. or my Watch Supervisors have a lot to learn about regulations.
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MACC Morale
Hey 250kts, (Even the name sounds like a restriction)!
Check this out:-
NATS was recently voted "THE WORLD's BEST ANSP" (by its peers).
Its core values are:- Safety, Service, value, People.
Safety is No.1, Numero Uno. It's what it's all about.
Manchester, (MACC, EGCC or whatever) allegedly recently won an award for safety.
SAYS IT ALL.
For many years, Manchester has been providing an ATC service which can only be described as TOP DRAWER.
Their lack of slot restrictions may be due to a lack of aeros, but listening to these folks working I suspect it is more likely due to sheer professionalism.
Finally, in the "real commercial world", I suspct there are many who put in less hours than the MACC sub-roster team, without their safety accountabilities, and for far greater remuneration.
Check this out:-
NATS was recently voted "THE WORLD's BEST ANSP" (by its peers).
Its core values are:- Safety, Service, value, People.
Safety is No.1, Numero Uno. It's what it's all about.
Manchester, (MACC, EGCC or whatever) allegedly recently won an award for safety.
SAYS IT ALL.
For many years, Manchester has been providing an ATC service which can only be described as TOP DRAWER.
Their lack of slot restrictions may be due to a lack of aeros, but listening to these folks working I suspect it is more likely due to sheer professionalism.
Finally, in the "real commercial world", I suspct there are many who put in less hours than the MACC sub-roster team, without their safety accountabilities, and for far greater remuneration.
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Mmmmm, Manchester probably had the best improved safety record because it was bloody awful before ... and that comes from the presentation given by their safety team. Top drawer ?? I'd say equal or better now.
They are doing good things these days, and their culture is up there with the best of them. So, well done to those who have helped make the change. It had to be or else we may have been looking at something more serious.
And I don't mean looking at a mobile phone whilst a runway incursion is taking place .....
They are doing good things these days, and their culture is up there with the best of them. So, well done to those who have helped make the change. It had to be or else we may have been looking at something more serious.
And I don't mean looking at a mobile phone whilst a runway incursion is taking place .....
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28 hour week? 6 days leave to get 2 weeks off?
People in the real world work 40+ hour weeks for an average of c. £23k and it takes 10 days leave to get 2 weeks off. They have to turn up when their working day starts and they have to stay till their day is over.
I can see why morale is so low right enough.... Get a grip.
People in the real world work 40+ hour weeks for an average of c. £23k and it takes 10 days leave to get 2 weeks off. They have to turn up when their working day starts and they have to stay till their day is over.
I can see why morale is so low right enough.... Get a grip.
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Zooker,
250 kts is actually used for safety reasons so not a restriction at all
But you say "but listening to these folks working" suggests that you don't actually work there and are actually not really qualified to comment on the subject of ATC working practices.
You are correct in what you say about the award but need to read the comments from Pprune Radar.
They are part of an organisation which provides a "top drawer" service-full stop.
Not sure what you mean by the "real commercial world" though.
Me Me. It is only 28 hours for the weeks they are on the roster. They will have to make up the hours to a normal 35 hours week elsewhere in the year.
250 kts is actually used for safety reasons so not a restriction at all
But you say "but listening to these folks working" suggests that you don't actually work there and are actually not really qualified to comment on the subject of ATC working practices.
You are correct in what you say about the award but need to read the comments from Pprune Radar.
They are part of an organisation which provides a "top drawer" service-full stop.
Not sure what you mean by the "real commercial world" though.
Me Me. It is only 28 hours for the weeks they are on the roster. They will have to make up the hours to a normal 35 hours week elsewhere in the year.
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OK Knots, Listen Up:-
250kts is a speed restriction. Heard it on the R/T today. "Standard speed restriction 250 kts" Safety or not it's a restriction no less, as is a level restrriction or a heading restriction.
If the sub roster is "a perfectly legitimate roster within the normal working practice rules" well that's all right then.
I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment.
I may have even heard HD in the 80s, -a great honour Sir.
Taking my scanner, binos and well-thumbed Graham Duke to the top of Mt Belzoni I can often hear the transmissions from the Costa Del Swanwick. And what do I hear? Yawnsville! Contrast this with the MACC frequencies or the myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital.
It is amazing how often the voices change. Also I note you often do 2 frequencies at a time. I suppose the theory is "We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!
Finally, Me Me. Most people start and finish work at the appointed times.
I would like to see a flight crew sneak off before the end of their duty. Even 'Goldenballs' (Mr Beckham to you), has to stay until the end of his shift.
250kts is a speed restriction. Heard it on the R/T today. "Standard speed restriction 250 kts" Safety or not it's a restriction no less, as is a level restrriction or a heading restriction.
If the sub roster is "a perfectly legitimate roster within the normal working practice rules" well that's all right then.
I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment.
I may have even heard HD in the 80s, -a great honour Sir.
Taking my scanner, binos and well-thumbed Graham Duke to the top of Mt Belzoni I can often hear the transmissions from the Costa Del Swanwick. And what do I hear? Yawnsville! Contrast this with the MACC frequencies or the myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital.
It is amazing how often the voices change. Also I note you often do 2 frequencies at a time. I suppose the theory is "We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!
Finally, Me Me. Most people start and finish work at the appointed times.
I would like to see a flight crew sneak off before the end of their duty. Even 'Goldenballs' (Mr Beckham to you), has to stay until the end of his shift.
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I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment.
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Hey Zooker,
Thanks for the laugh.
No pity felt from here though-just a shame you aren't in the business, unable to visit a major unit in any official capacity and therefore unlikely ever to become remotely knowledgeable about anything to do with ATC, except from what you pick up on your airband.
And as for your comment ""We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!"-T**SER!!
You also say "I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment." That's a bit like saying I've seen B777s overflying and heard them too so I am in a position to comment on the cause of last weeks' accident.
Oh by the way the "myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital." are being controlled by who??-I'll let you answer the question yourself.
Never mind-now maybe you should get back to doing some more under lining in your books!!
Thanks for the laugh.
No pity felt from here though-just a shame you aren't in the business, unable to visit a major unit in any official capacity and therefore unlikely ever to become remotely knowledgeable about anything to do with ATC, except from what you pick up on your airband.
And as for your comment ""We're No.28, if we do 2 freqs together we'll be No.14, -Only 9 below Manchester!"-T**SER!!
You also say "I have listened to the R/T for many years and feel well placed to comment." That's a bit like saying I've seen B777s overflying and heard them too so I am in a position to comment on the cause of last weeks' accident.
Oh by the way the "myriad of dancing lights often seen in the skies above our capital." are being controlled by who??-I'll let you answer the question yourself.
Never mind-now maybe you should get back to doing some more under lining in your books!!
Last edited by 250 kts; 24th Jan 2008 at 10:29.