Annoying RT
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[PEDANT] Should be "Contact agency, frequency/channel"[/PEDANT]
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I'm afraid I totally disagree. Saying "Continue Approach" supplies just as much situational awareness to other crews on the frequency as saying "Continue to Breath". Other crews are totally clueless about the position of this particular aircraft other than it's "out there somewhere".
Finally on this subject - my bugbear! If we're quiet, you check in at 10 miles, nothing's going on...you will probably get a "continue approach", not a landing clearance. Why? Because at 2 miles, you'll ask "can you confirm we are cleared to land". Thanks for getting confirmation - I'm not against that at all, but invariably it gets us jumping up with binoculars wondering what you've seen on the runway! If I just give you a continue, then a clearance at 4 miles, I don't get the raised heart rate! I often wonder why the flight deck get a placard for the cabin crew to set "cabin ready take off / landing", but there isn't one to say "cleared to land" when landing clearance is received...
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P L E A S E PLEASE please
wait until we've got it on the ground and can talk to you before going ahead...having been a controller in a former life, it's like someone asking if you want tea just as you're using the "surface wind is XXX at XX knots, runway XX you're cleared to land" ploy to stretch a small gap into a larger one...Thank you muchly
wait until we've got it on the ground and can talk to you before going ahead...having been a controller in a former life, it's like someone asking if you want tea just as you're using the "surface wind is XXX at XX knots, runway XX you're cleared to land" ploy to stretch a small gap into a larger one...Thank you muchly
"XXX, continue approach, 1 to depart. After landing vacate at the end, your stand occupied".
"YYY cleared for takeoff"
"XXX cleared to land, wind blah"
A/c now at around 1/2 mile, stand screen flashes into life with a new stand, or GMC start the one on your stand.
"XXX no need to acknowledge, you may vacate at C1, stand changed"
To a pilot, is that useful, or not? Bear in mind, I've not had anyone ignore it and roll to the end anyway
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we don't use the phrase Channel (or Canal in French) in RT anymore
Not even with 8.33 spacing?
In the land of retirement now, but was quoting last ICAO doc I had available
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Hi Lon,
Hope retirement is fun
It was the case that ''Channel' was in the phraseology, but it was removed when everyone went to using 6 digits for frequencies. For most of the civilised world, this was in November 2005. For the UK, it was May 2006.
Hope retirement is fun
It was the case that ''Channel' was in the phraseology, but it was removed when everyone went to using 6 digits for frequencies. For most of the civilised world, this was in November 2005. For the UK, it was May 2006.
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Things change quickly. that was a suggestion made on day 1 of 8.33 ops. I didn't think it would ever make it through Montreal.
On the whole. Still miss the people and the actual job. NOT the b/s I was supposed to distribute on behalf of management.
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Slink:
With more and more airfields busy with traffic and the TWR controller unaware of anything that occurs on the apron, I always appreciate the times when an extra effort is made with regard to taxying / parking!
With more and more airfields busy with traffic and the TWR controller unaware of anything that occurs on the apron, I always appreciate the times when an extra effort is made with regard to taxying / parking!
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Hold Short ?
Time to get this thread going again
"Hold Short"
This crops up in central europe, mostly german & french speeking countries.
ATC: "Hold short runway 28"
(given to an aircraft cleared to the holding point 28)
How short is short. 3 meters or 30 meters. Is it permission to move past the holding point surface markings and get a little bit closer to the runway?
ATC: "Hold short taxiway Lima"
Same again. OK I'll keep 3cm short of the taxiway.
Its bull****
Then there is ...
ATC: "Standby short" (mostly heard in switzerland and germany)
OK - what does this mean ???
Maybe we should define how long a standard "standby" is and what units we measure it in. Minutes, fuel burn or $ or £ or euro-things.
Then when we know how long a standard standby is, then we could usefully work out how long "Standby short" is.
ATC please stop using local rubbish and keep it standard
"Hold Short"
This crops up in central europe, mostly german & french speeking countries.
ATC: "Hold short runway 28"
(given to an aircraft cleared to the holding point 28)
How short is short. 3 meters or 30 meters. Is it permission to move past the holding point surface markings and get a little bit closer to the runway?
ATC: "Hold short taxiway Lima"
Same again. OK I'll keep 3cm short of the taxiway.
Its bull****
Then there is ...
ATC: "Standby short" (mostly heard in switzerland and germany)
OK - what does this mean ???
Maybe we should define how long a standard "standby" is and what units we measure it in. Minutes, fuel burn or $ or £ or euro-things.
Then when we know how long a standard standby is, then we could usefully work out how long "Standby short" is.
ATC please stop using local rubbish and keep it standard
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which spacing or channel ????
There s an ICAO phraseology for that
*Advise 8.33 eqipped * ,he replies- *Affirm 8.33* or *Negative 8.33*or exempted ....
Same for RVSM you say
*Confirm RVSM approved*,pilot replies* Affirm or Negative RVSM *
Really annoying to listen to*advice 8.33 spacing capability*and the pilot goes *say it again?*,and again and again...
There s an ICAO phraseology for that
*Advise 8.33 eqipped * ,he replies- *Affirm 8.33* or *Negative 8.33*or exempted ....
Same for RVSM you say
*Confirm RVSM approved*,pilot replies* Affirm or Negative RVSM *
Really annoying to listen to*advice 8.33 spacing capability*and the pilot goes *say it again?*,and again and again...
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Hold Short --- How short is short ?
Read the origional text
So the ATC says hold short runway 36.
I elect to hold 3 meters from the runway edge.
That’s short of the runway
I am NOT told this will not give enough wing tip clearance from the aircraft using the runway, which may not stay on the centerline, and may veer to one side, who's wing may then hang over the runway edge by more than 3 meters.
Bang!
That’s the sound the wing tip makes as it slices through my cockpit.
As a pilot the only thing I need to know is that I am as instructed "holding short of the runway"
So how short is short ?
Its just not good R/T and there are many pilots out there that will not know how close they are allowed to get to the runway.
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No it's not.
When you are told to hold short of Echo you hold short of the sign that tells you you are about to cross Echo.
When you are told to hold short of Runway 27L you hold short of the sign that says '27L', where the wigwags/guard ambers are, if you've not been told to hold at a specific point.
It's all in ICAO PANS/ATM Doc4444.
When you are told to hold short of Echo you hold short of the sign that tells you you are about to cross Echo.
When you are told to hold short of Runway 27L you hold short of the sign that says '27L', where the wigwags/guard ambers are, if you've not been told to hold at a specific point.
It's all in ICAO PANS/ATM Doc4444.
Last edited by Gonzo; 27th Feb 2010 at 06:06.
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I read your question and referred to it. As Gonzo says, there is plenty of hold short in ICAO DOC 4444, so it seems rather lack of knowledge than poor RT. One can advocate that it is a poor phraseology to have and that ICAO should change it, but not that it's poor RT to use while rules are as they stand ATM.
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use of 'Channel'
Maybe not in civvy life, but is 'channel' not still used for military aircraft which are 'studded' for home base.
Channel 1 - Ground
Channel 2 - TWR
Channel 3 - App etc
Channel 1 - Ground
Channel 2 - TWR
Channel 3 - App etc
For me, one of the most irritating and totally unnecessary word is " fully ready". Still hear it all the time both from ATC and crew. Listen guys, you are either ready or not. If you report "ready" that should mean nothing else than that you are ready! Get rid of the "fully"!
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"FULLY ready" is a heap of habitual nonsense as Avman says. "FULLY ready" with the doors wide open and the tug not connected is doubly crap, not least naive. Look to your left and right guys as we on adjacent stands are shaking our heads in disbelief
"4321 THE squawk" ....thats another embarrassing attempt to sound "cool". Being asked to squawk is an instruction, but many pilots don't want to read it back as "squawk 4321 G-ABCD." Why?
"G-ABCD WITH YOU" = stating-the-obvious crap.
"COPIED / ready to COPY G-ABCD" = CB radio crap.
"OK, join left base etc." = over-relaxed crap.
"To tower eighteen one, G-ABCD" = cringeworthy crap.
"G-ABCD ready." = ready for what? cryptic crap.
"Tower G-ABCD WITH YOU () FULLY ESTABLISHED ON THE GLIDE ( ) at erm.....errrr....four point five DEE " = long winded unnecessary crap.
"LAND G-ABCD" = over stern crap. (this is a clearance and should be read back as such including the words CLEARED TO..., it's not a demand from ATC that you must land at all costs.)
"We have him on TCAS" = useless crap.
God why do these n**bers think this makes any difference to the controller?
RT is surely one of the most repetitive and therefore easiest part of a commercial pilots life so why do so many people disregard it as secondary to just about everything else? In the last two UK airlines Ive worked for the TRI / TRES have demonstrated some of the worst RT I have ever heard! If good RT practice cant be demonstrated from the top of the trainig tree in airlines then Im afraid controllers its never going to get any better. The fact is preccious few pilots care and those that do are tarred with the nit picking brush.
"4321 THE squawk" ....thats another embarrassing attempt to sound "cool". Being asked to squawk is an instruction, but many pilots don't want to read it back as "squawk 4321 G-ABCD." Why?
"G-ABCD WITH YOU" = stating-the-obvious crap.
"COPIED / ready to COPY G-ABCD" = CB radio crap.
"OK, join left base etc." = over-relaxed crap.
"To tower eighteen one, G-ABCD" = cringeworthy crap.
"G-ABCD ready." = ready for what? cryptic crap.
"Tower G-ABCD WITH YOU (
) FULLY ESTABLISHED ON THE GLIDE ( ) at erm.....errrr....four point five DEE " = long winded unnecessary crap."LAND G-ABCD" = over stern crap. (this is a clearance and should be read back as such including the words CLEARED TO..., it's not a demand from ATC that you must land at all costs.)
"We have him on TCAS" = useless crap.
God why do these n**bers think this makes any difference to the controller?RT is surely one of the most repetitive and therefore easiest part of a commercial pilots life so why do so many people disregard it as secondary to just about everything else? In the last two UK airlines Ive worked for the TRI / TRES have demonstrated some of the worst RT I have ever heard! If good RT practice cant be demonstrated from the top of the trainig tree in airlines then Im afraid controllers its never going to get any better. The fact is preccious few pilots care and those that do are tarred with the nit picking brush.
Last edited by Dreadful; 27th Feb 2010 at 10:58.
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anotherthing, not sure if that also changed with the intro of "channel" for 8.33 as the last few Boscome's we've had went to "Stud 6" instead. Can't find any documents to support though....