Holding Helicopters
"Their reasoning behind rotary phobia was that the college uses helicopters as 'problems' if they want to upset a student's flow. After a bit this becomes understandably deep-rooted and the knee jerk reaction is rather negative."
I think that this is a little unfair - however, what was done just a few years ago, certainly at CATC, was to introduce helicopters into the scenarios far too early (IMHO), and although to you and me it would be no problem - in fact, it could be perfectly straightforward if you appreciate the advantages of the helicopter's performance compared with the rest (aeroplanes) - to the trainees, it was often too much, too soon, therefore could be perceived as deliberately introduced problems (e.g. read the data, know the aircraft types and appreciate which is a helicopter for a start!) .
I think that this is a little unfair - however, what was done just a few years ago, certainly at CATC, was to introduce helicopters into the scenarios far too early (IMHO), and although to you and me it would be no problem - in fact, it could be perfectly straightforward if you appreciate the advantages of the helicopter's performance compared with the rest (aeroplanes) - to the trainees, it was often too much, too soon, therefore could be perceived as deliberately introduced problems (e.g. read the data, know the aircraft types and appreciate which is a helicopter for a start!) .
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At Aberdeen we have to use orbit instead of hold for circuit low time pilots.I think it was introduced as part of stall/spin awareness,but it looks like light helis could well use this procedure.
I had to laugh about the college using helis as problems.Perhaps some of the instructors could come up to ISZ to see how it's done in the real world.50% of our traffic is problems.
I had to laugh about the college using helis as problems.Perhaps some of the instructors could come up to ISZ to see how it's done in the real world.50% of our traffic is problems.
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Not just low-time ATCOs who may not understand that "hold" does not mean "hover" in the air. Some years ago a colleague of mine with a CAA Flight Ops Inspector on board was given absolute rocks by the FOI for not hovering when asked to hold on a heli-route at 800ft. It was at NIGHT too!
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Have to agree with 2 Sheds. However, the underlying theme of "low-time ATCOs" having little appreciation of aircraft types/performance cannot possibly have anything to do with a reduction of the training time, the reduction of flying time, the reduction or elimination of "in the field experience", or the removal of the requirement to do the Aerodrome course for Approach and Area students..........Can it?
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View from a cockpit
Interesting thread this. I’ve been invited over from the Rotorheads forum for a look.
It is quite understandable that non-pilots are unaware of the limitations of helicopters, even if it is a little alarming that this includes ATCOs. As a plank driver who saw the rotary light, I was amazed to discover that helicopter pilots who zoomed along at low level before pulling up into a climb weren’t doing it for fun but actually needed to. What every helicopter pilot knows is that, while helicopters can hover, they really don’t like it at all. The type that I fly typically requires about 65% of available power to cruise at 120 kts, 80% to sit in a low hover and cannot hover out of ground effect at all unless about a ton below max all-up weight. Asking it to do so would rapidly lead to a situation analogous to a fixed wing being in a deep stall, virtually out of control and needing several thousand feet to recover.
As mentioned above, we can be very flexible in forward speed. Depending on type, minimum speed for comfortable control (and flight manual minimum for IMC flight) will range from 40 kts for a light single up to 70 kts for some heavies. Maximum speed may be in excess of 160 kts for some of the latter.
If you have the flexibility and time (and I appreciate that you may have neither), offering an early speed reduction would usually be preferred over a late hold.
OA
It is quite understandable that non-pilots are unaware of the limitations of helicopters, even if it is a little alarming that this includes ATCOs. As a plank driver who saw the rotary light, I was amazed to discover that helicopter pilots who zoomed along at low level before pulling up into a climb weren’t doing it for fun but actually needed to. What every helicopter pilot knows is that, while helicopters can hover, they really don’t like it at all. The type that I fly typically requires about 65% of available power to cruise at 120 kts, 80% to sit in a low hover and cannot hover out of ground effect at all unless about a ton below max all-up weight. Asking it to do so would rapidly lead to a situation analogous to a fixed wing being in a deep stall, virtually out of control and needing several thousand feet to recover.
As mentioned above, we can be very flexible in forward speed. Depending on type, minimum speed for comfortable control (and flight manual minimum for IMC flight) will range from 40 kts for a light single up to 70 kts for some heavies. Maximum speed may be in excess of 160 kts for some of the latter.
If you have the flexibility and time (and I appreciate that you may have neither), offering an early speed reduction would usually be preferred over a late hold.
OA
Asking an R22 to hover with one onboard shouldn't be a problem. However, if this event happened in the last few weeks, there's not been much wind around - so a lowtimer would be a little more tense.
To most rotary pilots a hold is a hold. If we're in a tight spot we have to hover - if we have space we can keep airspeed. If we have headwind, we already have some forward airspeed.
In reality, a hold on the perimeters of LHR is a hover - but there has to an element of predicting when to move. As AlanM says, they need you at LHR to be ready to cross - and that means airspeed in advance. So (believe it or not) we look up finals for the approaching traffic and take a guess which gap we'll be given - and then start a slow move. If the clearance doesn't come at the obvious time, we go back to a hover or turn.
Trouble is - that's when sod's law kicks in and you get a clearance.
'course it could be they're playing a game with us......
To most rotary pilots a hold is a hold. If we're in a tight spot we have to hover - if we have space we can keep airspeed. If we have headwind, we already have some forward airspeed.
In reality, a hold on the perimeters of LHR is a hover - but there has to an element of predicting when to move. As AlanM says, they need you at LHR to be ready to cross - and that means airspeed in advance. So (believe it or not) we look up finals for the approaching traffic and take a guess which gap we'll be given - and then start a slow move. If the clearance doesn't come at the obvious time, we go back to a hover or turn.
Trouble is - that's when sod's law kicks in and you get a clearance.
'course it could be they're playing a game with us......
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I thought the procedure in the AIP for crossing LHR said orbit, not hover.
Yep, just looked it up..
AIP EGLL AD 2.22 refers:
Yep, just looked it up..
AIP EGLL AD 2.22 refers:
Note 1: It is essential that helicopters execute the holding manoeuvre in an orbit and not in the hover.
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If you would kindly look at the response I have placed on rotor heads.
The helicopter in question, can rapidly turn nasty. A student would not have the time to shout for help. This lack of understanding nearly developed into a loss of life.
The helicopter in question, can rapidly turn nasty. A student would not have the time to shout for help. This lack of understanding nearly developed into a loss of life.
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This lack of understanding nearly developed into a loss of life.
OR
Lack of teaching by the instructor?
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For an ATCO to gain a Unit Endorsement on his/her licence requires intimate knowledge of ATC procedures and techniques. It is not necessary (nor feasible) to have an intimate knowledge of a/c performance and characteristics of many diverse a/c types, even though it is obviously desirable for ATCOs to continue to learn and broaden their knowledge in this regard by fam flights, liaison trips etc.
That's why pilots train......to gain an intimate knowledge of the performance and characteristics of their own aircraft.
Yes, an unfortunate situation, of course, but I hope someone will see what lessons there are in regards of the training this pilot received.
That's why pilots train......to gain an intimate knowledge of the performance and characteristics of their own aircraft.
Yes, an unfortunate situation, of course, but I hope someone will see what lessons there are in regards of the training this pilot received.
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I love the fact that certain persons here are so quick to blame the instruction, and are totally overlooking the human factors element.
1) Student pilots are, on the whole, operating at the limits of mental capacity (especially helicopter students)
2) Student pilots, at ATC controlled airfields, are told to do what ATC tells them.
Maybe certain ATCO's who have been so quick to criticise should realise that the flying world is not solely populated by professional pilots who fly into the one and only place that said ATCO's have probably ever worked.
There's a bigger world out there guys - think out of the box for a change.
1) Student pilots are, on the whole, operating at the limits of mental capacity (especially helicopter students)
2) Student pilots, at ATC controlled airfields, are told to do what ATC tells them.
Maybe certain ATCO's who have been so quick to criticise should realise that the flying world is not solely populated by professional pilots who fly into the one and only place that said ATCO's have probably ever worked.
There's a bigger world out there guys - think out of the box for a change.
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Chili, I wasn't criticising anyone. I was just making the point that the lessons on the ATC side (though I hesitate to call it that) in this case are seemingly clear; more familiarisation on the types of a/c and types of flying that those aircraft conduct.
The lessons of the training of helicopter pilots should also be examined. Lets not assign blame, we can all learn from incidents (or near incidents) like this.
I have also worked at an airfield where extensive flying training took place, albeit not for a prolonged period.
That's certainly not what I was told to do when I was learning at a controlled airfield. Before I went solo (fixed wing), and during the subsequent solo consolidation hours I was under no illusion that if anything was out of the ordinary at all or I didn't feel 100% happy, to let ATC know, or ask for plain language clarification. Indeed, the day I went solo, Concorde was operating pleasure flights to the Bay from the same aerodrome. I wouldn't have thought twice about saying 'no' to ATC if they'd asked me to do something I was unsure about, even if it meant delaying Concorde.
This is perhaps one of the lessons that I was referring to. If student pilots are indeed being taught to blindly follow ATC instructions without first ensuring they understand the implications to their own aircraft, then I would suggest that needs investigating.
If student [helicopter] pilots are operating to the limits of mental capacity to the extent that they get themselves into dangerous situations, then perhaps the training syllabus should be looked at? Minimum hours? synthetic training aids?
The lessons of the training of helicopter pilots should also be examined. Lets not assign blame, we can all learn from incidents (or near incidents) like this.
I have also worked at an airfield where extensive flying training took place, albeit not for a prolonged period.
Student pilots, at ATC controlled airfields, are told to do what ATC tells them.
This is perhaps one of the lessons that I was referring to. If student pilots are indeed being taught to blindly follow ATC instructions without first ensuring they understand the implications to their own aircraft, then I would suggest that needs investigating.
If student [helicopter] pilots are operating to the limits of mental capacity to the extent that they get themselves into dangerous situations, then perhaps the training syllabus should be looked at? Minimum hours? synthetic training aids?
LTE ? Vortex ring ? Deadman's Curve ? These aren't ATC issues and you shouldn't let them cloud your judgement. For the record, LTE was invented by Bell to cover-up the bad design of a their tail rotor, vortex ring is also known as settling with power and DC applies to any helicopter which is upto 400ft AGL with little or no airspeed.
There all sorts of eddys and currents around an airfield at low level. For instance, an airfield tends to be in open countryside - so the buildings cause immense turbulence to a smooth airflow going over the countryside. Chuck in some wayward vortices from aircraft and you have soup of distraction for a helicopter pilot trying to hold a hover.
Not much power in hand, unfamiliar surroundings, high tension through worrying about encroaching into the wrong area, rapid fire tower ATC.......and so the soup gets even more distracting.
And suddenly our lowtimer isn't doing the primary job : "keep flying the aircraft" is the mantra.
A busy commercial airport is no place for a low-level, low time student helicopter pilot on a solo - unless they've been there dual before.
Same day, same wx, same turbulence, same helicopter - experienced pilot with airport familiarity. No problem.
There all sorts of eddys and currents around an airfield at low level. For instance, an airfield tends to be in open countryside - so the buildings cause immense turbulence to a smooth airflow going over the countryside. Chuck in some wayward vortices from aircraft and you have soup of distraction for a helicopter pilot trying to hold a hover.
Not much power in hand, unfamiliar surroundings, high tension through worrying about encroaching into the wrong area, rapid fire tower ATC.......and so the soup gets even more distracting.
And suddenly our lowtimer isn't doing the primary job : "keep flying the aircraft" is the mantra.
A busy commercial airport is no place for a low-level, low time student helicopter pilot on a solo - unless they've been there dual before.
Same day, same wx, same turbulence, same helicopter - experienced pilot with airport familiarity. No problem.
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Jim Ball,
I think that the main problem is lack of ATCO awareness in this particular incident.At Aberdeen which has one or two helis,any Atco will tell you that what that controller said about hovering on base leg,was not a good idea.We can they you all the quirks of different marks of the same heli,and even different company ops.One of the very basic things you learn in the Tower there is any heli (AS3B to R22)can't/won't/shouldn't hold on a base leg in a hover.I had to correct an ''expert instructor'' at the college who said that many years ago.I said if it was the old S61 full of big fat heavy oillies,it would be lucky to stay in the air on one engine even at 50kts.
I think Atco's should have a basic understanding of how to deal with helis.It would seem that this is missing.
I think that the main problem is lack of ATCO awareness in this particular incident.At Aberdeen which has one or two helis,any Atco will tell you that what that controller said about hovering on base leg,was not a good idea.We can they you all the quirks of different marks of the same heli,and even different company ops.One of the very basic things you learn in the Tower there is any heli (AS3B to R22)can't/won't/shouldn't hold on a base leg in a hover.I had to correct an ''expert instructor'' at the college who said that many years ago.I said if it was the old S61 full of big fat heavy oillies,it would be lucky to stay in the air on one engine even at 50kts.
I think Atco's should have a basic understanding of how to deal with helis.It would seem that this is missing.