SID v. radar departure question
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SID v. radar departure question
The other day I departed from Friedenshafen (EDNY), on one of the show days so quite busy, SEP, for the UK, on an IFR (airways) flight plan filed (and CFMU approved) for FL150. ATC was busy mixing VFR and IFR deps, getting everybody off as fast as they could.
The departure clearance was something like "1 whisky departure, squawk 2665".
This caught me a little by suprise, since the arrival was a RV ILS, the departures were obviously RV (via Zurich) so while I had all the SIDs on my kneeboard, I wasn't expecting one of them. I also wasn't expecting one that took me in the exact opposite direction to (and didn't join up with) the filed route!
So it looks like ATC sometimes give you a SID to get you going for a bit, knowing that you will be handed over to a radar unit soon.
Q1: Is this the case where the radar is being provided by another airport's ATC (as in this case) or could it happen anywhere even where there is radar on the airport?
The SID takes you out on the runway track till 4D from the VOR (there is no DME on the EDNY ILS, as far as I could tell) and then you turn left, right back towards another VOR, something like 079 inbound.
When I was handed over to Zurich, I was told "climb FL 80". I read it back as "climb FL80 on the heading" and this was not queried.
Q2: Should I have flown the SID, climbing to FL 80?
I know that e.g. Jersey want you to fly the SID, climbing to the assigned level as you track it. But in this case Zurich clearly did not want me to track the SID assigned by EDNY. I assumed they would probably want me to just hold the heading since the radar service was being provided by a different ATC unit.
Is this a genuine ambiguity, sloppy ATC, or a sloppy pilot?
The departure clearance was something like "1 whisky departure, squawk 2665".
This caught me a little by suprise, since the arrival was a RV ILS, the departures were obviously RV (via Zurich) so while I had all the SIDs on my kneeboard, I wasn't expecting one of them. I also wasn't expecting one that took me in the exact opposite direction to (and didn't join up with) the filed route!
So it looks like ATC sometimes give you a SID to get you going for a bit, knowing that you will be handed over to a radar unit soon.
Q1: Is this the case where the radar is being provided by another airport's ATC (as in this case) or could it happen anywhere even where there is radar on the airport?
The SID takes you out on the runway track till 4D from the VOR (there is no DME on the EDNY ILS, as far as I could tell) and then you turn left, right back towards another VOR, something like 079 inbound.
When I was handed over to Zurich, I was told "climb FL 80". I read it back as "climb FL80 on the heading" and this was not queried.
Q2: Should I have flown the SID, climbing to FL 80?
I know that e.g. Jersey want you to fly the SID, climbing to the assigned level as you track it. But in this case Zurich clearly did not want me to track the SID assigned by EDNY. I assumed they would probably want me to just hold the heading since the radar service was being provided by a different ATC unit.
Is this a genuine ambiguity, sloppy ATC, or a sloppy pilot?
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since the arrival was a RV ILS, the departures were obviously RV
A1. Basic pre-flight planning. If there is a SID, or a STAR, expect it until you get told otherwise. Doesn't matter who provides what from where - if it's published, it could be used.
A2. Were you placed on a heading - or still on the SID? If the former then you should have checked in with your level climbing to and the heading assigned. If not - then you should have checked in with the SID designator and level climbing to. You effectively placed yourself on a heading without an instruction from ATC.
Sorry, but - sloppy planning, piloting and R/T from yourself that could have led to an incident.
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 25th Apr 2007 at 14:56.
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I should have made it clearer that Zurich had obviously expected me to fly the heading while climbing.
If not, why not query a) my readback and b) my not turning along the SID.
They gave me the climb instruction before I had reached the 4D point on the SID.
I have no doubt they had intended this, since the initial heading and the following headings picked up my filed route.
If not, why not query a) my readback and b) my not turning along the SID.
They gave me the climb instruction before I had reached the 4D point on the SID.
I have no doubt they had intended this, since the initial heading and the following headings picked up my filed route.
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Sloppy flying to me;
• Just because you were given RV to the ILS does not mean you would expect the same on departure?? Look at LHR every one gets RV ILS does every one do a RV departure?? NO
• You should continue on the SID until told other wise or the centre line of the airway it links into regardless of you being cleared higher level wise.
• The Zurich controller did not expect you on a heading he just did not hear the wrong read back?
10 D
• Just because you were given RV to the ILS does not mean you would expect the same on departure?? Look at LHR every one gets RV ILS does every one do a RV departure?? NO
• You should continue on the SID until told other wise or the centre line of the airway it links into regardless of you being cleared higher level wise.
• The Zurich controller did not expect you on a heading he just did not hear the wrong read back?
10 D
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I should have made it clearer that Zurich had obviously expected me to fly the heading while climbing.
If not, why not query a) my readback and b) my not turning along the SID.
They gave me the climb instruction before I had reached the 4D point on the SID.
I have no doubt they had intended this, since the initial heading and the following headings picked up my filed route.
You're making assumptions and second guessing - two things which have no place in a Controlled, IFR environment.
The departure clearance was something like "1 whisky departure, squawk 2665".
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Thank you for a decent constructive non-aggressive question - bookworm 
The dep was ALGOI 1W so initial heading was 240.
I have tried to contact both Zurich and EDNY ATC by phone to ask what their usual procedures are, but without success. I got Zurich but not the area controllers. Of course I know one flies the SID and climbs as instructed ON THE SID, or to the SID's max level if specified (in this case it is 5000ft) if no level is given.
The contact was transferred to Zurich well before I reached the 4D mark i.e. well before the left turn on the SID.
My suspicion is that when Zurich gave me the climb instruction they said something else like "continue" and I took that as "continue heading" and read it back accordingly, slowly and clearly as I always do, and the absence of a query on an otherwise non-busy channel seemed to confirm this was either OK with them, or they would have given me some similar heading anyway so they let it go. They weren't busy so they could have yelled at me very easily. Anyway, that's what readbacks are for, to pick up mistakes.
The dep was ALGOI 1W so initial heading was 240.
I have tried to contact both Zurich and EDNY ATC by phone to ask what their usual procedures are, but without success. I got Zurich but not the area controllers. Of course I know one flies the SID and climbs as instructed ON THE SID, or to the SID's max level if specified (in this case it is 5000ft) if no level is given.
The contact was transferred to Zurich well before I reached the 4D mark i.e. well before the left turn on the SID.
My suspicion is that when Zurich gave me the climb instruction they said something else like "continue" and I took that as "continue heading" and read it back accordingly, slowly and clearly as I always do, and the absence of a query on an otherwise non-busy channel seemed to confirm this was either OK with them, or they would have given me some similar heading anyway so they let it go. They weren't busy so they could have yelled at me very easily. Anyway, that's what readbacks are for, to pick up mistakes.
The dep was ALGOI 1W so initial heading was 240.
It would make much more sense if it were an ALAGO 4W.
I appreciate that things were busy at EDNY, but if ATC gives you an IFR clearance that doesn't connect with your filed route, as I suspect is the case here, then you really need to question that on the ground.
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Originally Posted by IRpilot2006
Thank you for a decent constructive non-aggressive question - bookworm
Rather than worry about people being "aggressive" (not my intent I can assure you, and on re-reading my posts I'm at a loss to find any aggression there) maybe you should read, analyse your performance, learn from those with more experience (and of course your own mistakes) and move on.
My previous posts still stand, Bookworms latest, I think, adds to them nicely.
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Route back to the UK started off with a DCT to TRA, which is in the opposite direction to the SID.
Good point about questioning this on the ground. I didn't because one could not get a word in on the EDNY ground frequency, it took 5-10 mins just to get the call in to get the dep clr, and also the dep clr said 'contact Zurich on XXX.XX immediately after departure unless advised' so I just assumed they are getting everybody off on some SID that gets everybody out of the way, only to be handed over to Zurich radar... no problem.
Probably a combination of factors resulting on confusion. Nobody is perfect, well almost nobody
One learns. Maybe EDNY gave me somebody else's SID, and Zurich had the right one all along.
Good point about questioning this on the ground. I didn't because one could not get a word in on the EDNY ground frequency, it took 5-10 mins just to get the call in to get the dep clr, and also the dep clr said 'contact Zurich on XXX.XX immediately after departure unless advised' so I just assumed they are getting everybody off on some SID that gets everybody out of the way, only to be handed over to Zurich radar... no problem.
Probably a combination of factors resulting on confusion. Nobody is perfect, well almost nobody
One learns. Maybe EDNY gave me somebody else's SID, and Zurich had the right one all along.
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Hi IRPilot
I fly IFR quite regularly and 9 times out of 10 will get radar vectored to the ILS (unless i'm unlucky ) but I have NEVER been given a radar vectored departure. You may be confusing this with what happens in the UK quite frequently where upon tranfer to departure control you will be given radar vetors for separation NOT to facilitate your routing.
NO!!! you should always EXPECT to fly the WHOLE procedure!
You MUST carry on with the published SID for which you have been cleared unless given another lateral clearance. Yes certainly, OK, the controller did not pick up your incorrect read back, but 'Climb FL80 on the heading' is not correct RT phraseology (I dont think) and if they had wanted you to maintain heading, they would have said 'Maintain Present Heading, Climb FL80'
Never do something in the air that you could do on the ground first e.g Working out where you will go from the end of the SID to beginning of filed route!
-edited for typos
Q1: Is this the case where the radar is being provided by another airport's ATC (as in this case) or could it happen anywhere even where there is radar on the airport?
) but I have NEVER been given a radar vectored departure. You may be confusing this with what happens in the UK quite frequently where upon tranfer to departure control you will be given radar vetors for separation NOT to facilitate your routing.
So it looks like ATC sometimes give you a SID to get you going for a bit, knowing that you will be handed over to a radar unit soon.
Q2: Should I have flown the SID, climbing to FL 80?
Is this a genuine ambiguity, sloppy ATC, or a sloppy pilot?
-edited for typos
Probably a combination of factors resulting on confusion. ... Maybe EDNY gave me somebody else's SID, and Zurich had the right one all along.
Since all IFR airports in Germany are in controlled airspace (or their version of class F), there's always a SID, and you'll always be allocated that in your departure clearance. More often than not, after departure radar will shortcut that or give you a heading.
My last departure with Zurich involved a climb, a revocation of the climb to an intermediate level, and then a further climb, all while flying a strange teardrop horizontally (a ZUE departure from 27 at LSZH). It certainly required more concentration than average!
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IRPilot,
A question, for you... you're probably right from what has been discussed on here, perhaps an incorrect SID issued, but what would you have done if you'd gone RT fail transferring between TWR and Radar?
As for the ATCO on radar, i suspect they probably noticed you on a heading rather than the SID and just got on with it, thankful that nothing untoward happened. Apportioning blame is pretty pointless but I would be a bit bemused if an aircraft helped itself to a heading!! Perhaps some questioning would have been appropriate but as other threads go on about here, most agree that it's unprofessional to criticise fellow professionals on the RT (myself included).
Ultimately a good learning point (and seemingly yet another missed readback in there somewhere).
WW
A question, for you... you're probably right from what has been discussed on here, perhaps an incorrect SID issued, but what would you have done if you'd gone RT fail transferring between TWR and Radar?
As for the ATCO on radar, i suspect they probably noticed you on a heading rather than the SID and just got on with it, thankful that nothing untoward happened. Apportioning blame is pretty pointless but I would be a bit bemused if an aircraft helped itself to a heading!! Perhaps some questioning would have been appropriate but as other threads go on about here, most agree that it's unprofessional to criticise fellow professionals on the RT (myself included).
Ultimately a good learning point (and seemingly yet another missed readback in there somewhere).
WW
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I did expect to fly the whole SID and the reason I didn't wonder (loudly) where the hell it is taking me is that I was expecting radar vectors sooner or later. I've had a radar departure at certain large East European airports, with vectors given within a minute of takeoff. Anyway, a SID is not a radar departure.
Not checking that the SID connects to my filed route was a big mistake.
I would have started to query the route when approaching the end of the SID, when a near-180 turn would have been needed to get onto the filed route. Not being familiar with that airport (or Germany really, except enroute) I assumed that they assigned that silly SID due to the heavy departing traffic, for separation of IFR and the much more heavy VFR traffic.
Re comms failure, I should know the rules for German airspace but don't..... In the UK, it is the last assigned heading for 7 minutes and then revert to filed route, no? In the USA, it is the clearance, then the EFC (which doesn't exist in Europe) then filed route. In this case, I would have flown the SID to the end, climbing 5000ft, then turned towards TRA which was the filed route. But I have a battery powered radio anyway, for this kind of eventuality. What should one have done in this case? The SID is the clearance so you have to fly it whole. Do you then fly the last heading of that SID for 7 more mins? What if there is terrain?
A good lesson in several ways.
Not checking that the SID connects to my filed route was a big mistake.
I would have started to query the route when approaching the end of the SID, when a near-180 turn would have been needed to get onto the filed route. Not being familiar with that airport (or Germany really, except enroute) I assumed that they assigned that silly SID due to the heavy departing traffic, for separation of IFR and the much more heavy VFR traffic.
Re comms failure, I should know the rules for German airspace but don't..... In the UK, it is the last assigned heading for 7 minutes and then revert to filed route, no? In the USA, it is the clearance, then the EFC (which doesn't exist in Europe) then filed route. In this case, I would have flown the SID to the end, climbing 5000ft, then turned towards TRA which was the filed route. But I have a battery powered radio anyway, for this kind of eventuality. What should one have done in this case? The SID is the clearance so you have to fly it whole. Do you then fly the last heading of that SID for 7 more mins? What if there is terrain?
A good lesson in several ways.
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IRPilot,
may I take the opportunity to say 'well done' on having the compunction to come onto this site to try to find out what was going on.
As previously stated, you should have queried the SID on the ground if it seemed to take you in the opposite direction and did not join up with your route.... it was possibly a mistake on the controllers part, you did state it was busy, but the next controller (probably radar) would not have expected you to pop up on the track you did, so it was inherently unsafe.
If someone (an ATCO) is slack enough to say to you "continue", without stating what you are continuing, either question it or continue on whatever you were doing... in this case I think that from what you have said you should have been tracking 079 to another Nav Aid on the SID.
Never try to second guess what someone is thinking, or indeed what they mean... if in doubt, get clarification... believe me, the ATCO will be grateful you did, and it could save you from a nasty.
However, once again, well done on having the get up and go to ask instead of just letting it slide - if only more 'non professional' (I assume in your case), flyers did the same, it would help us and them
may I take the opportunity to say 'well done' on having the compunction to come onto this site to try to find out what was going on.
As previously stated, you should have queried the SID on the ground if it seemed to take you in the opposite direction and did not join up with your route.... it was possibly a mistake on the controllers part, you did state it was busy, but the next controller (probably radar) would not have expected you to pop up on the track you did, so it was inherently unsafe.
If someone (an ATCO) is slack enough to say to you "continue", without stating what you are continuing, either question it or continue on whatever you were doing... in this case I think that from what you have said you should have been tracking 079 to another Nav Aid on the SID.
Never try to second guess what someone is thinking, or indeed what they mean... if in doubt, get clarification... believe me, the ATCO will be grateful you did, and it could save you from a nasty.
However, once again, well done on having the get up and go to ask instead of just letting it slide - if only more 'non professional' (I assume in your case), flyers did the same, it would help us and them
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ATC clearance out of EDNY
I also flew the TRA 1W departure on Sunday afternoon out of EDNY.
I have just been in a similar position to your good self in the past and now know to have hard copies of all published SIDs in the cockpit as well as the G1000 ready to accept the SID and transition (which helps a schmuck like me a whole lot!) I also have the airport diagram including apron parking diagram to hand just in case I get cleared to somewhere not immediately obvious.
EDNY gave me an IFR clearance despite being very busy (and me having been unable to book one over the internet during the previous days) and Zurich gave me DCT TRA from the leg of the SID I was then following.
I always have the SIDs in front of me ready to shuffle through when I have copied the clearance and quickly brief it on the way to the runway holding point. After departure passing 1000ft I then engage the A/P and supervise it as it follows the SID legs (it flies them far more accurately than I can hand fly them) just to make sure it doesn't get any funny ideas.
Those ground controllers
can really catch a pilot out with the SID in the clearance so I always ask for clarification if I can't find the likely one.
My advice: If in doubt just ask, and be prepared with the SIDs in your hand.
SB
I have just been in a similar position to your good self in the past and now know to have hard copies of all published SIDs in the cockpit as well as the G1000 ready to accept the SID and transition (which helps a schmuck like me a whole lot!) I also have the airport diagram including apron parking diagram to hand just in case I get cleared to somewhere not immediately obvious.
EDNY gave me an IFR clearance despite being very busy (and me having been unable to book one over the internet during the previous days) and Zurich gave me DCT TRA from the leg of the SID I was then following.
I always have the SIDs in front of me ready to shuffle through when I have copied the clearance and quickly brief it on the way to the runway holding point. After departure passing 1000ft I then engage the A/P and supervise it as it follows the SID legs (it flies them far more accurately than I can hand fly them) just to make sure it doesn't get any funny ideas.
Those ground controllers
can really catch a pilot out with the SID in the clearance so I always ask for clarification if I can't find the likely one.My advice: If in doubt just ask, and be prepared with the SIDs in your hand.
SB
