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GT3, Gonzo, LnL, 2 sheds, at the risk off sounding argumentative it still strikes me you are all saying 'spotters' are better than non-spotters, is that what you believe? And on the point off education can you give me an example off when this extra knowledge helped you out off an unusual situation? 2 sheds, are we to take it that we should all have an indepth knowledge off how the military work in order to do our jobs? LnL, finally at no point did I say non spotters are poorer controllers merely it did not make a difference, I don't think that is an arrogant viewpoint!
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Whoa!
No, spotters or not doesn't come into it.
Without wishing to speak for the others, what I think we are saying is that an ATCO who takes a wider interest in ATC, and wider still the rest of aviation, will make a more rounded ATCO.
Someone who is keen to go on fam flights, keen to chat to flight crew if and when they visit, keen to go on visits to neighboring units to discuss mutual problems etc. Someone who is keen to learn how different airlines operate their a/c, and why etc etc.
No, spotters or not doesn't come into it.
Without wishing to speak for the others, what I think we are saying is that an ATCO who takes a wider interest in ATC, and wider still the rest of aviation, will make a more rounded ATCO.
Someone who is keen to go on fam flights, keen to chat to flight crew if and when they visit, keen to go on visits to neighboring units to discuss mutual problems etc. Someone who is keen to learn how different airlines operate their a/c, and why etc etc.
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And on the point off education can you give me an example off when this extra knowledge helped you out off an unusual situation?
Or what about the same people who won't even consider that an aircraft coming in with hydralic failure could well end up gouging two grooves in the runway, not to mention the damage to the aircraft, because the gear doors won't be retracted.
Many people think this is basic but it happens a lot.
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2 sheds, are we to take it that we should all have an indepth knowledge off how the military work in order to do our jobs?
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Bratback - I'm certainly not advocating hiring only spotters! I have no interest in "collecting" tail numbers or registrations, I have no model aircraft (not that there's anything wrong with that!) and my bookshelves have only a small aviation section. But at least I have an aviation section!
Where does in-depth knowledge that isn't in the MATS/MANOPS/local orders matter? Okay, let's say a pilot requests direct "high key". It isn't taught at the College... Old Q codes aren't taught anymore (and QFU isn't rude)... Why are the pilots of a 747-400 busier than the pilots of a 747-200 when an engine fails? Why do 777 jockeys complain when given "160 knots to 4 miles"? Why do you have to give speed reductions really early to A330-200 crews? Why do some Beech 1900 operators have a 180kt speed limit below FL100? Why would most crews prefer on orbit downwind followed by a 10 mile final instead of no orbit and a 16 or 18 mile final? Why is a smooth landing on a wet runway a really bad idea?
Maybe bratback can answer all of the above without reference to books or even having to think much about it. If so, I'm glad. But there are those who don't have the answers at their fingertips and who have no interest in gaining such knowledge.
Where does in-depth knowledge that isn't in the MATS/MANOPS/local orders matter? Okay, let's say a pilot requests direct "high key". It isn't taught at the College... Old Q codes aren't taught anymore (and QFU isn't rude)... Why are the pilots of a 747-400 busier than the pilots of a 747-200 when an engine fails? Why do 777 jockeys complain when given "160 knots to 4 miles"? Why do you have to give speed reductions really early to A330-200 crews? Why do some Beech 1900 operators have a 180kt speed limit below FL100? Why would most crews prefer on orbit downwind followed by a 10 mile final instead of no orbit and a 16 or 18 mile final? Why is a smooth landing on a wet runway a really bad idea?
Maybe bratback can answer all of the above without reference to books or even having to think much about it. If so, I'm glad. But there are those who don't have the answers at their fingertips and who have no interest in gaining such knowledge.
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VDH, I would ask questions off your TRUCE set up if you have valid controllers unable to understand the implications of a hydraulic problem or other situations considered 'basic.' Injs, it sounds like you work at a unit which deals with military regularly in which case surely completion of the UTP should cover these aspects. LnL, no I do not have the answers to all these questions, some but not all, but tell me where the harm is in asking a pilot to tell you his requirements if it's an unusual suituation, better to give them what they need than think we know, the rest you learn through experience and keeping up to date with current developments. Maybe I am being pedantic but I don't think professionalism is the the same as having an interest and anyone who does our job should be professional or leave the job its not a past time, and on that note I am off to look up some answers!
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Bratback - there's no harm at all in asking a pilot if there's time. You just reminded me of an example where time was lacking years ago. I was working tower (ah, the heady days when I could look out of a window!) and a SF34 had just departed. As they passed the upwind end of the runway at about 300', they called "mayday, compressor failure".
I can almost guarantee that somebody, somewhere, likely in a centre or tower near you, would be thinking "what's a compressor?" Knowing that it's a big spinny bit in the engine which, if it fails can lead to a punctured fuselage and tanks and possibly a fire, I offered them a visual circuit, either direction and immediate landing clearance. The funny (after the event) thing was that it wasn't actuallya compressor failure at all. It was a compressor stall which makes a loud bang and certainly is enough to make it worth having an engineer look at the engine, but with much less serious consequences.
There was a case of a C150 pilot many moons ago calling mayday for a "power unit failure" while over water. The ATCO sat scratching his *ss for a second or five before realising that meant an engine failure.....
I'm not for a minute advocating seeing this profession as a pastime. I AM advocating having enough interest to read the odd professional journal, talk to pilots when you get the chance, take fam flights and simply be interested enough to want to be a better ATCO. Besides, the more interested you are, the more you'll enjoy it! Enjoying your job is nothing to be ashamed of!
I can almost guarantee that somebody, somewhere, likely in a centre or tower near you, would be thinking "what's a compressor?" Knowing that it's a big spinny bit in the engine which, if it fails can lead to a punctured fuselage and tanks and possibly a fire, I offered them a visual circuit, either direction and immediate landing clearance. The funny (after the event) thing was that it wasn't actuallya compressor failure at all. It was a compressor stall which makes a loud bang and certainly is enough to make it worth having an engineer look at the engine, but with much less serious consequences.
There was a case of a C150 pilot many moons ago calling mayday for a "power unit failure" while over water. The ATCO sat scratching his *ss for a second or five before realising that meant an engine failure.....
I'm not for a minute advocating seeing this profession as a pastime. I AM advocating having enough interest to read the odd professional journal, talk to pilots when you get the chance, take fam flights and simply be interested enough to want to be a better ATCO. Besides, the more interested you are, the more you'll enjoy it! Enjoying your job is nothing to be ashamed of!
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LnL, I think we are kind off talking around the same thing but my point is that enjoying your job and wishing to be as good at it as possible is not the same as having an interest in aviation it's merely being a professional who is lucky enough to like their chosen job. Before I started this job I had no interest in aviation, outside work I still have little or no interest, if it does not affect my day to day working life then no interest at all. If I left this job I would cease to have any interest in aviation at all, and whilst this may sound like a bad boast it's not meant that way, I am merely trying to point out that having an interest should not be a requirement before being allowed to enter the selection process- it does not make you a poorer or better controller. My original point that the inference that those without an interest in aviation are neither as good nor as professional is one I still believe to be held by many and one which I still believe to be incorrect and if not arrogant then certainly verging on it. Sorry if I am going on but I don't believe you would like your ability/professionalism questioned just because you have an interest in aviation.
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bratback - I did not refer to spotters in fact I said "people with an interest in aviation helps you" if you read into that differently then there is nothing I can do to stop that.
For examples of where my knowledge has helped me, there would be plenty, but one example was when a fellow controller noted something that was hanging out of the back of the 767s tail. It was the tail skid which I was able to inform them, no problem with the a/c as may have been thought.
One of my good friends is a 747-400 SFO and I often ask him about his a/c and some of the seemingly minor things that occur and why they do it. Its interesting to me and I personally feel it makes me a more rounded ATCO.
For examples of where my knowledge has helped me, there would be plenty, but one example was when a fellow controller noted something that was hanging out of the back of the 767s tail. It was the tail skid which I was able to inform them, no problem with the a/c as may have been thought.
One of my good friends is a 747-400 SFO and I often ask him about his a/c and some of the seemingly minor things that occur and why they do it. Its interesting to me and I personally feel it makes me a more rounded ATCO.
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GT3 if you are going to quote yourself then please quote what you wrote, 'I have a keen interest in aviation' and 'an interest in aviation is key to the role of an ATCO' from which became, 'people with an interest in aviation helps you'. The latter implies it's no big deal but the former claims it's key to the role, right up their with being able to keep aircraft apart! Also when asking for examples I was looking for things that could not be gained through TRUCE, a UTP or asking a pilot/other controllers. So far the best example has been LnL and the SF34 but I would like to think any valid controller faced with an aircraft declaring a mayday due to a failure of any description in his/her circuit would get it down asap and on any runway available, pilots don't declare mayday lightly, but maybe I have too much faith in my colleague.
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bratback - you mentioned spotters and my name in one of your posts. Granted I did not correctly quote myself but to be fair neither post says you need to be a spotter. Yes ANY atco faced with a mayday would do their best to help but that is not what is being discussed here, there was talk about knowledge of aviation making you a more rounded controller - something which does not appear in training or TRUCE.
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I think that the term Aviation Interest can cover a multitude of things.It can be anything from spotting,GA flying,gliding,microlights,aeromodelling etc etc.
Is this interest include drinking with pilots and talking 10000ft talk?
It's too general to say that an Aviation interest helps.Everyone is different.Having a pilot whinging at me,because he was number 21 today is not that interesting.Half of Aviation interests have nothing to do with ATC,and long may that continue.
Is this interest include drinking with pilots and talking 10000ft talk?
It's too general to say that an Aviation interest helps.Everyone is different.Having a pilot whinging at me,because he was number 21 today is not that interesting.Half of Aviation interests have nothing to do with ATC,and long may that continue.
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Wish I hadn't started this spotters vs non spotters debate 
I was just curious about NATS advertising a 85K job on XFM radio, that was it.
Usually highly specialised professions are not advertised on commercial radio, in fact you will only hear about telesales, call centres or part time IKEA jobs.
I went through flight training before applying for NATS (no it wasn't part of the preparation
) and it made the whole process a lot easier, so that the dreaded interview became a relaxed chat about stuff I knew inside out. So yeah, I would like to think that having an interest helps. And I swear I've never taken a photo of an airplane in my entire life !
regards
I was just curious about NATS advertising a 85K job on XFM radio, that was it.
Usually highly specialised professions are not advertised on commercial radio, in fact you will only hear about telesales, call centres or part time IKEA jobs.
I went through flight training before applying for NATS (no it wasn't part of the preparation
) and it made the whole process a lot easier, so that the dreaded interview became a relaxed chat about stuff I knew inside out. So yeah, I would like to think that having an interest helps. And I swear I've never taken a photo of an airplane in my entire life ! regards
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Bratback, if I may pose a question to you........
Candidate "A" and Candidate "B" both applying for an ab-initio position have exactly the same scores/results from their selection process. Candidate "A" has an interest in aviation, Candidate "B" does not. Who gets the job?
Candidate "A" and Candidate "B" both applying for an ab-initio position have exactly the same scores/results from their selection process. Candidate "A" has an interest in aviation, Candidate "B" does not. Who gets the job?
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Jerricho, by the way you pose the question it would imply NATS selection process in which case if both meet the criteria both are offered a place on a course. If non NATS then it would come down to the iterviewer, it is a fact that most job interviews are decided on first impressions, if all else equal. Just because someone shares an interst with you does not mean you necessarily will like them and believe they will fit in with your team, something that is viewed as important throughout ATC.
If I may pose a question to you, the same candidates, same scores, both male, Candidate A also has multiple ear piercings, a nose ring,and multicoloured hair, Candidate B has no piercings and a regular hair style, in our working environment who do you think the board would give the job to now?
On a personal note when I went for my interview and was asked why I wanted to do the job I replied because it looked challenging and the money was good. Subsequently I have validated at any unit I have been at, held positions of LCE and watch manager amongst others, but am basically being told by some on here that because I previously did not have an interest in aviation I should not have been allowed to even apply, that is what I find offensive and arrogant. On the argument of whether it makes you a better controller it's an impossible argument to solve but I would ask when the last time an incident board cited lack of inerest in aviation as a causal factor as opposed to controller judgement. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an interest in aviation in this job but provided you keep up to date with matters which affect you the converse is also true.
If I may pose a question to you, the same candidates, same scores, both male, Candidate A also has multiple ear piercings, a nose ring,and multicoloured hair, Candidate B has no piercings and a regular hair style, in our working environment who do you think the board would give the job to now?
On a personal note when I went for my interview and was asked why I wanted to do the job I replied because it looked challenging and the money was good. Subsequently I have validated at any unit I have been at, held positions of LCE and watch manager amongst others, but am basically being told by some on here that because I previously did not have an interest in aviation I should not have been allowed to even apply, that is what I find offensive and arrogant. On the argument of whether it makes you a better controller it's an impossible argument to solve but I would ask when the last time an incident board cited lack of inerest in aviation as a causal factor as opposed to controller judgement. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an interest in aviation in this job but provided you keep up to date with matters which affect you the converse is also true.
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Bratback,
Sorry, can you point out that bit to me?
but am basically being told by some on here that because I previously did not have an interest in aviation I should not have been allowed to even apply
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Actually Bratback, it was a general, all encompassing scenario anywhere in the world, not just specific to NATS. Agreed, just because somebody does share the same interest as you doesn't mean you will like them, but it certainly provides common ground to start from. One thing I have certainly learnt in this job is you can pick up a hell of a lot of useful information from experienced bods sitting around you, especially from the old dinosaurs recounting war stories of "....and this one time, at controller camp......."
I've read back through the thread, and not one single post hints at or implies that yourself, or any other person who has donned a headset in anger should not have been allowed in based on the premise raised.....you've drawn that inference in a very defensive manner, and your "offence" is certainly unwarranted. No one here is trying to to start a pissing match about ability or professionalism, just a friendly little discussion regarding opinions (all be it a horrendous thread drift
)
To echo the opinions of other controllers here, I believe an interest in aviation can certainly aid in your performing a service (NOTE: I am not referring to anyone's professionalism or abilities), especially in unusual circumstances where thinking "outside the numbers" is required. 2 instances I can think of off the top of my head......a Sirrus SR20 informs it has an engine failure, what can be expected. A Cessna 337 on a hot day informs you it's having engine problems. A Caravan informs you it's having problems with "it's boots". I'm sure others out there could add to the list.
Of course, as has been stated already, "ask the pilot what's up" will provide more information, but anything tucked away in the grey matter that hasn't become beer fuddled over there years that can aid in situations described above can only viewed as an advantage.
I've read back through the thread, and not one single post hints at or implies that yourself, or any other person who has donned a headset in anger should not have been allowed in based on the premise raised.....you've drawn that inference in a very defensive manner, and your "offence" is certainly unwarranted. No one here is trying to to start a pissing match about ability or professionalism, just a friendly little discussion regarding opinions (all be it a horrendous thread drift
)To echo the opinions of other controllers here, I believe an interest in aviation can certainly aid in your performing a service (NOTE: I am not referring to anyone's professionalism or abilities), especially in unusual circumstances where thinking "outside the numbers" is required. 2 instances I can think of off the top of my head......a Sirrus SR20 informs it has an engine failure, what can be expected. A Cessna 337 on a hot day informs you it's having engine problems. A Caravan informs you it's having problems with "it's boots". I'm sure others out there could add to the list.
Of course, as has been stated already, "ask the pilot what's up" will provide more information, but anything tucked away in the grey matter that hasn't become beer fuddled over there years that can aid in situations described above can only viewed as an advantage.
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I'm sure the pilot in this example was more than a little pleased someone had "an interest"
Yeah, probably a little over the top, but it certainly validates what some people have posted
Yeah, probably a little over the top, but it certainly validates what some people have posted
