Swanwick Skygods
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Hermano, FWIW I haven't worked for NATS or its predecessors for over 30 years This attitude is one of the reasons I left.
I don't think anyone in our Ops. Room would have made such a damning statement.
I don't think anyone in our Ops. Room would have made such a damning statement.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK FIR South
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Voice Monkeys ??
Here's my tuppence worth; -
I've recently joined NATS and it quickly became apparent to me there were some detrimental divisions in the company. One is Area v Airports and the other is ATCO v ATSA which we certainly did not have within my previous company. When I voiced this it was suggested by "management" that the ATSAs are a undesirable expenditure that needs to be reduced.
I believe ATSAs (and their unions may be) have brought some of the pain upon themselves though, by not adapting and taking on new roles, by demeaning the job (reading newspapers etc) and not clinching more important "safety" responsibilities to justify their salaries.
My conclusion is that the ATSA role is changing rapidly, basically being drastically de-skilled by the advance of technology, as were Flight Engineers, Navigators and soon ATCOs may be. We can all think of other types of industry/business where this has happened and where there has been considerable anguish for all concerned (banking, steel etc). I have no doubt that ATCOs will be called Voice Monkeys by Pilots in due course because most of the decision making will be taken away from them and be replaced by airborne and ground based systems.
So my advice to operational ATSAs is - don't look upon the job from now on as anything more than a step to other things. And expect to be paid for doing a job that an intelligent youngster can grasp in six weeks? I do agree good manners and being polite cost nothing - but are invaluable!
Good luck.
I've recently joined NATS and it quickly became apparent to me there were some detrimental divisions in the company. One is Area v Airports and the other is ATCO v ATSA which we certainly did not have within my previous company. When I voiced this it was suggested by "management" that the ATSAs are a undesirable expenditure that needs to be reduced.
I believe ATSAs (and their unions may be) have brought some of the pain upon themselves though, by not adapting and taking on new roles, by demeaning the job (reading newspapers etc) and not clinching more important "safety" responsibilities to justify their salaries.
My conclusion is that the ATSA role is changing rapidly, basically being drastically de-skilled by the advance of technology, as were Flight Engineers, Navigators and soon ATCOs may be. We can all think of other types of industry/business where this has happened and where there has been considerable anguish for all concerned (banking, steel etc). I have no doubt that ATCOs will be called Voice Monkeys by Pilots in due course because most of the decision making will be taken away from them and be replaced by airborne and ground based systems.
So my advice to operational ATSAs is - don't look upon the job from now on as anything more than a step to other things. And expect to be paid for doing a job that an intelligent youngster can grasp in six weeks? I do agree good manners and being polite cost nothing - but are invaluable!
Good luck.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
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My conclusion is that the ATSA role is changing rapidly, basically being drastically de-skilled by the advance of technology,
You should also note that as far as possible office jobs which were previously done by ATCO grades are now being done by ATSA grades (ATC (T&S)).
I have no doubt that ATCOs will be called Voice Monkeys by Pilots in due course because most of the decision making will be taken away from them and be replaced by airborne and ground based systems.
BD
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Here's my tuppence worth. Started in aviation in 1971. Now doing what I want to do where I want to do it. I have no jealousy of other people and their professional successes, in fact I take great pleasure in anyone else's success (especially the youngsters) and I seek no promotion or glory.
I've learnt lessons over the years; most important is that anyone that does a job that you do not do has a better knowledge and skill at that job than you. Be it ATSA, ATCO, pilot or bricklayer.
I could never have achieved any success in my profession without the knowledge, support, friendship and encouragement of all, of whatever grade or job description. They all contributed and supported my growth within my profession.
Them and us, us and them? Same team actually and those that don't recognise it are either vain or extremely foolhardy. Or perhaps both?
Oh dear!
I've learnt lessons over the years; most important is that anyone that does a job that you do not do has a better knowledge and skill at that job than you. Be it ATSA, ATCO, pilot or bricklayer.
I could never have achieved any success in my profession without the knowledge, support, friendship and encouragement of all, of whatever grade or job description. They all contributed and supported my growth within my profession.
Them and us, us and them? Same team actually and those that don't recognise it are either vain or extremely foolhardy. Or perhaps both?
Oh dear!
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Hermano, my brother and I both started out ATC careers as assistants in Brisbane Centre (the position was known as ADSO - Airways Data Systems Officer). There was a noticable "us and them" between the groups there as well. I used to put it down to the fact that more than a few in the assistant ranks were failed controllers, a couple of frustrated pilots and one or two who were there for the cash (it was a pretty good paying job for what was done). The duties were a little different to those of a NATS ATSA (man, I hated that AFTN printer). The derisory comments were always there (strip-monkey, dogs-body, f***ing lazy ADSOs), as was the rudeness. Our position was then hearded out into a room as it's own little entity, which made matters worse.
Before I joined, I believe the system used to be that many controllers in the seats started as either Flight Service or ADSOs, and progressed onwards through a cadetship. Maybe that's where the disconnect came in........suddenly it became a job that some viewed as below them now they had a licence.
Before I joined, I believe the system used to be that many controllers in the seats started as either Flight Service or ADSOs, and progressed onwards through a cadetship. Maybe that's where the disconnect came in........suddenly it became a job that some viewed as below them now they had a licence.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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just to say. i'm a new atco at a big unit, and the time i spent with the atsa's was invaluable and anyone who talks the job down really doesn't understand it. I hope it never gets to the situation where there is only me and the tac on a busy sector. One A.U. could cause an overload!
Join Date: Jun 2006
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As a Swanwick ATSA, I'll put my tuppence in as well then!
Firstly, the ATSA role has been de-skilled to such an extent that a lot of the time the ATSA is reading the paper in between loading strips. But, this is not there fault! Am sure if all AC ATSAs were asked they would prefer to be of more use and would gladly relish the prospect of being more engaged and having more tasks to perform. They enjoyed the West Drayton days when they felt they performed a valuable and useful task.
But what are they going to do? They are in a money rut. They all have mortgages and bills. What else can they do with the experience they have elsewhere? Most are middle aged and re-training and embarking on an alternative career is a non starter. Its a real shame that NATS still makes it almost as hard for an ATSA to progress to being a NATS ATCO as it is for someone from the outside! After all they have a wealth of experience and knowledge that is underused and un-tapped!
My second point is that I can see the ATCO perspective as well. You're an ATCO working your nuts off (well some of the time!!), and the person sitting next to you is reading the paper and being payed around 30k for it! But, trust me, they would swap that paper for some job satisfaction and a feeling of being needed.
One last point, when NAS fails or theres a shutdown, I don't beleive any of these dissenting ATCOs mentioned (and it really is a small minority) would prefer to be there without them!
Things have moved on a lot over the years, and the class system has virtually been eroded, but there will always be one or two that think they are awesome! (maybe they are!). Just remember some ATSAs are married with children and the potential prospect of being without a job and career at the midpoint of your life can be a worrying prospect.
So, you're entitled to your opinion just as I, and everybody else is. Maybe be a bit more thoughtful about when and where you express it.....
Firstly, the ATSA role has been de-skilled to such an extent that a lot of the time the ATSA is reading the paper in between loading strips. But, this is not there fault! Am sure if all AC ATSAs were asked they would prefer to be of more use and would gladly relish the prospect of being more engaged and having more tasks to perform. They enjoyed the West Drayton days when they felt they performed a valuable and useful task.
But what are they going to do? They are in a money rut. They all have mortgages and bills. What else can they do with the experience they have elsewhere? Most are middle aged and re-training and embarking on an alternative career is a non starter. Its a real shame that NATS still makes it almost as hard for an ATSA to progress to being a NATS ATCO as it is for someone from the outside! After all they have a wealth of experience and knowledge that is underused and un-tapped!
My second point is that I can see the ATCO perspective as well. You're an ATCO working your nuts off (well some of the time!!), and the person sitting next to you is reading the paper and being payed around 30k for it! But, trust me, they would swap that paper for some job satisfaction and a feeling of being needed.
One last point, when NAS fails or theres a shutdown, I don't beleive any of these dissenting ATCOs mentioned (and it really is a small minority) would prefer to be there without them!
Things have moved on a lot over the years, and the class system has virtually been eroded, but there will always be one or two that think they are awesome! (maybe they are!). Just remember some ATSAs are married with children and the potential prospect of being without a job and career at the midpoint of your life can be a worrying prospect.
So, you're entitled to your opinion just as I, and everybody else is. Maybe be a bit more thoughtful about when and where you express it.....
Join Date: Sep 2002
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I can only speak from my own experiences but at the Airports a good ATSA is worth their weight in gold and truly make a difference to how well and easily you can do your job.
I haven't seen the "us and them" scenario in a long time but then I have viewed it from the ATCO side so I cannot say it does not exist at Airports but the job is different at the airports. Some conversations of how it used to be with some old school guys who saw a huge division between the two grades gave a horrifying insight into how bad that division could be. If the unit is wise then they will put new trainees in with ATSAs for a few weeks before ATCO training it helps them understand just exactly how much they do at the unit.
I haven't seen the "us and them" scenario in a long time but then I have viewed it from the ATCO side so I cannot say it does not exist at Airports but the job is different at the airports. Some conversations of how it used to be with some old school guys who saw a huge division between the two grades gave a horrifying insight into how bad that division could be. If the unit is wise then they will put new trainees in with ATSAs for a few weeks before ATCO training it helps them understand just exactly how much they do at the unit.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Hear! Hear! Flower.
I'm in my second stint with NATS now, and thankfully, we have none of the 'them and us' here at Brizzel. Our ATSAs are worth their weight in bacon butties (anyone who knows me will understand how much I value a bit of pig in a bap!), and are the best I have worked with in my times with this company. A certain manager (who shall remain nameless) tried to persuade Brizzel to reduce ATSA numbers a few years ago, and failed. We rely on them to do jobs that we do not have time to do and are very highly valued by Brizzel ATCOs.
PS FWIW, I think they deserve to be paid more Mr Barron!
I'm in my second stint with NATS now, and thankfully, we have none of the 'them and us' here at Brizzel. Our ATSAs are worth their weight in bacon butties (anyone who knows me will understand how much I value a bit of pig in a bap!), and are the best I have worked with in my times with this company. A certain manager (who shall remain nameless) tried to persuade Brizzel to reduce ATSA numbers a few years ago, and failed. We rely on them to do jobs that we do not have time to do and are very highly valued by Brizzel ATCOs.
PS FWIW, I think they deserve to be paid more Mr Barron!
Join Date: Jun 2006
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I was called out to Swanwick last Saturday, to assist the Police in a particularily nasty crime. We were all over Hants and ended up in Swanwick in the early hours of Saturday morning. When it became apparent that we would get no further that night, we were sttod down to a country house hotel, to grab a couple of hours kip. Imagine my suprise, that we were not the only one's queuing to check into the hotel at 2 a.m.
Four or so suits (and a dress) were also checking in, wearing ID badges prominently around their necks, and having completed formalities at the desk went straight to the bar "for a few" as I overheard.
Imagine my even GREATER suprise when they were at breakfast, at 7 a.m. either having not gone to bed, or having grabbed a maximum of 5 hours - the length of time in the bar = not very much sleep, re-suited and dressed and still wearing their ID cards looking ready to go off to work. Indeed, they got into their car, and off they went.
It's a worry !
Four or so suits (and a dress) were also checking in, wearing ID badges prominently around their necks, and having completed formalities at the desk went straight to the bar "for a few" as I overheard.
Imagine my even GREATER suprise when they were at breakfast, at 7 a.m. either having not gone to bed, or having grabbed a maximum of 5 hours - the length of time in the bar = not very much sleep, re-suited and dressed and still wearing their ID cards looking ready to go off to work. Indeed, they got into their car, and off they went.
It's a worry !
Join Date: May 2004
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oh dear!
Tezzer. that has to be one of the most ill informed and pointless posts I have ever seen on this or any other forum! What is the implication of your ramblings. Highly unlikely that these suits were operational controllers( especially if suited on a saturday!). Stick to pc plod forums and use your obviously highly honed detective skills in more relevant areas.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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An even greater suprise that you were in a hotel and not our canteen. That is were the rest of Hampshires finest seem to spend most of their mornings. Taking advantage of our subsidised food and causing us to wait even longer for our breakfast. 12 of you the other morning!! 
Join Date: May 2004
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exactly!
including dog handlers and traffic police. Dont mind armed response unit being there but all others just stay away. bad enough paying for you all with my taxes without subsidising your meals!
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Thankfully the Swanwick Skygods are in the minority. ATSA's do have a valuable role to play, ask the more experienced people how many times the Atsa has got them out of a hole.
If the work load is high, use the Atsa don't just ignore them.Make them part of the team! thats why we all have done TRM.
If the work load is high, use the Atsa don't just ignore them.Make them part of the team! thats why we all have done TRM.
Join Date: Jan 2000
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Hermano Lobo post #39 “ I think much of this has more to do with the cultural and class structure of the British Isles rather than ATC ? Would the same attitudes occur in somewhere like Australia for instance ?”
As Jerricho has said, be assured that exactly this differentiation and discrimination existed in Australia. Of course the advent of TAAATS in 1999 saw the demise of the ADSO in the operational area and they have since been confined to a couple of positions such as ‘blipping.’
As Jerricho has said, be assured that exactly this differentiation and discrimination existed in Australia. Of course the advent of TAAATS in 1999 saw the demise of the ADSO in the operational area and they have since been confined to a couple of positions such as ‘blipping.’
Join Date: May 2000
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I don't know how the ATSA/ATCO interface works in the centres. But I've had a few years experience at airports. Quite apart from unusual or emergency situations, in which I have been helped massively by an experienced and capable ATSA, a decent ATSA makes my everyday routine ops run smoother (just like a decent radar controller at the other end of my final approach track does). I have also, in the past, had a quiet nudge from an ATSA pointing something out that I had missed.
tezzer - you'd be hard pressed to find an operational ATCO or ATSA in a suit during the week. But on a Sunday morning? Worry not my friend, especially as the shift start time of 0700 looked a bit tight on the timing you reported...
Hermano Lobo - you might as well say that First Officers are employed for the Captain to look down on. Or the cabin crew are employed just for the flight deck to look down on. (or serve drinks and look pretty). Some people make sweeping generalisations about Americans. Guess it's up to the individual to sort prejudice from fact, or bias from objectivity.
tezzer - you'd be hard pressed to find an operational ATCO or ATSA in a suit during the week. But on a Sunday morning? Worry not my friend, especially as the shift start time of 0700 looked a bit tight on the timing you reported...
Hermano Lobo - you might as well say that First Officers are employed for the Captain to look down on. Or the cabin crew are employed just for the flight deck to look down on. (or serve drinks and look pretty). Some people make sweeping generalisations about Americans. Guess it's up to the individual to sort prejudice from fact, or bias from objectivity.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I should/could have retired 18 months ago, bur a divorce/pension law sort of beggared that up...
oh, hum
OK, I've been an [RAF] ADO 1963-68 [Some changes in W.C. there
] and have been an ATCA/ATSA from 1969-NOW
I've worked Tower... EGBB, EGCC, App Asst EGBB, EGCC PATCRU [Preston Air Traffic Control Radar Unit] at Manchester Airport [The "Area" function was at Barton Hall....near Preston and the "Radar" function was on the first floor at Manchester Airport] When PATCRU folded, the Manchester "Sub Centre" was created, I was re-posted back to Manchester Tower, where I was employed in the best job in Aviation..... A "Runway Controller" ...as well as a run of the mill ATCA. When the Tower and Area functions were amalgamated, I worked on area...hence the second best ATSA position....Pennine Radar Asst 
[as an aside, I had 13 Area validations, 4 tower validations, I was an asst FBO, and a qualified STPO]
Sooo, apart from 14 months at Brum, Ive been at Manch since my birthday in 1970
In that time, I have had "Flak" from a grand total of 4 that is FOuR "Controllers"....ALL [except one] were sorted amicably, and V,PDQ. T'other took a slight "uncorrected" error......and a 'nudge' just before the brown stuff met the whirly thing.....
I am NOT perfect, I AM a Human being......So is an ATCO....THINK ABOUT IT
I/my oppo at ANY unit "Could" just save YOURLicence
Sorry about the long winded post, but to ALL the new ATCOs, your "Assistant" probably has forgotten more than you will ever know [about the job] [S]He is there to help YOU to to the Task that you are paid to do...whether they like you or not....................Remember, They are PROFESSIONALSTOO
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
oh, humOK, I've been an [RAF] ADO 1963-68 [Some changes in W.C. there
] and have been an ATCA/ATSA from 1969-NOWI've worked Tower... EGBB, EGCC, App Asst EGBB, EGCC PATCRU [Preston Air Traffic Control Radar Unit] at Manchester Airport [The "Area" function was at Barton Hall....near Preston and the "Radar" function was on the first floor at Manchester Airport] When PATCRU folded, the Manchester "Sub Centre" was created, I was re-posted back to Manchester Tower, where I was employed in the best job in Aviation..... A "Runway Controller"
...as well as a run of the mill ATCA. When the Tower and Area functions were amalgamated, I worked on area...hence the second best ATSA position....Pennine Radar Asst [as an aside, I had 13 Area validations, 4 tower validations, I was an asst FBO, and a qualified STPO]Sooo, apart from 14 months at Brum, Ive been at Manch since my birthday in 1970
In that time, I have had "Flak" from a grand total of 4 that is FOuR "Controllers"....ALL [except one] were sorted amicably, and V,PDQ. T'other took a slight "uncorrected" error......and a 'nudge' just before the brown stuff met the whirly thing.....
I am NOT perfect, I AM a Human being......So is an ATCO....THINK ABOUT IT
I/my oppo at ANY unit "Could" just save YOURLicence
Sorry about the long winded post, but to ALL the new ATCOs, your "Assistant" probably has forgotten more than you will ever know [about the job] [S]He is there to help YOU to to the Task that you are paid to do...whether they like you or not....................Remember, They are PROFESSIONALSTOO
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy