What do pilots do that 'irk' you?
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: all over the place
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not making a climb/descent restriction which is published and also repeated by the controller during a climb/descent instruction.....there is a reason for the restriction....if you can't make it tell us in time as it normally impacts on an adjacent sector so we have to co-ordinate with them in time.
Last edited by alwaysmovin; 31st Jan 2007 at 19:02.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Planet Plazbot
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh yeah, reminds me of a fave.'Can you reach FXX by XXXDME Wherever?' 'Affirm'... requirement given and read back........ 5 miles to go 'Ummm, we cannot reach that requirement'.
Sigh.
Sigh.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Townsville Australia
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks again
Hi guys and girls,
This is great stuff. My CRM courses are usually directed at operators not usually found in the Flight Levels (ie military helicopter aircrew [0' to 500' being their usual haunts] and GA aircrew as well as non-aircrew trained persons who are required to perform aircrew duties [paramedics, electricity linesmen, etc]) but the various ATC issues are still good stuff. TCAS problems is perfect for my module on 'Automation in the cockpit and its pitfalls.' when I do some of the high end operators such as surveillance operators of Dash-8 and Dorniers and other such aircraft.
Please, keep 'em coming!
Oh, and AirNoServices Australia... I am not RAAF! I'm ex-ARMY. Big Difference as I'm sure all RAAFies and Army guys will agree.
Safe flying/controlling everyone!
Conway
This is great stuff. My CRM courses are usually directed at operators not usually found in the Flight Levels (ie military helicopter aircrew [0' to 500' being their usual haunts] and GA aircrew as well as non-aircrew trained persons who are required to perform aircrew duties [paramedics, electricity linesmen, etc]) but the various ATC issues are still good stuff. TCAS problems is perfect for my module on 'Automation in the cockpit and its pitfalls.' when I do some of the high end operators such as surveillance operators of Dash-8 and Dorniers and other such aircraft.
Please, keep 'em coming!
Oh, and AirNoServices Australia... I am not RAAF! I'm ex-ARMY. Big Difference as I'm sure all RAAFies and Army guys will agree.
Safe flying/controlling everyone!
Conway
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: On a Ship Near You
Posts: 787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clipping the readback, ie After saying "Shark 3 maintain 3 thousand" the relpy is "ousand, shark 3"; when asking to say the readback again I get a "UMPH (explitive toned), three tousand, shark three"; or "...TTTTHHHHRRRREEEEE thousand, shark 3"
If only the readbacks could actually be heard from our end; best thing is famil in ATC positions.
Make sure you don't get offended if asked to say something again, it's cause
a) didn't hear you say what I though (ie it was wrong), or
b) I didn't hear you say the critical info; it's not a go at your professionalism; but it is after getting a response as above.
Remember most ATCs have multiple frequencies (mostly on retransmit) and multiple coordlines (phone + intercoms); at times we can have 5 or six voices all at once; or radio garble; it's pretty obvious why we didn't hear the readback from you, from our end!
I'm with DP re the "reason" for an instruction; if you have reason not to accept my "Clearance" let me know, not the other way around. (Of course we all know that most delays and amended routes and track shortening denials are puely for controller amusement; ie big sky theory always works right?)
I also like the requests for direct and or high speed after making you go slow and vectoring for spacing; hilarous! Also vectors/speed control are not always about a sequence there is this pesky thing called separation too!
If only the readbacks could actually be heard from our end; best thing is famil in ATC positions.
Make sure you don't get offended if asked to say something again, it's cause
a) didn't hear you say what I though (ie it was wrong), or
b) I didn't hear you say the critical info; it's not a go at your professionalism; but it is after getting a response as above.
Remember most ATCs have multiple frequencies (mostly on retransmit) and multiple coordlines (phone + intercoms); at times we can have 5 or six voices all at once; or radio garble; it's pretty obvious why we didn't hear the readback from you, from our end!
I'm with DP re the "reason" for an instruction; if you have reason not to accept my "Clearance" let me know, not the other way around. (Of course we all know that most delays and amended routes and track shortening denials are puely for controller amusement; ie big sky theory always works right?)
I also like the requests for direct and or high speed after making you go slow and vectoring for spacing; hilarous! Also vectors/speed control are not always about a sequence there is this pesky thing called separation too!
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do they sometimes look at their TCAS? Or even better, outside the cockpit?"
TCAS has a limited lateral range, usually less than 50 miles.
TCAS has a limited lateral range, usually less than 50 miles.
I'm not talking about so far away, but just 1000ft above, in a range of 1-2 NM... I suppose they can see that
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Southampton
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about giving us all the necessary information on first call? Cleared level, heading and speed if any of those have been assigned. Makes our job a damn sight easier if we don't waste another three transmissions trying to "weedle" out all the pertinent information!
And read the STAR charts! Too often aircraft are going in to stacks high because they aren't anticipating either the speed limit point or any height restrictions. High into the stack is not good as it uses up levels for subsequent aircraft.
Rant done!
And read the STAR charts! Too often aircraft are going in to stacks high because they aren't anticipating either the speed limit point or any height restrictions. High into the stack is not good as it uses up levels for subsequent aircraft.
Rant done!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G-VATCO
I agree with you there, its annoying too when you have leveled off aircraft and just as the blips merge, one pilot calls "XXX123 is clear of the traffic". I have been known to reply sarcastically a curt "No you're not", or "You just fly your aircraft, I'll worry about the air traffic" (if I have been having a particularly bad day).
As an aside - I have been told that pilots on some airlines are instructed through company SOPs to report approaching a cleared level, when climbing to an intermediate, non cruise level.
Pilots in the London TMA on first contact with radar calling "London ABC123"; sometimes you don't even get the 'London' bit. Give us all the info!! (All airlines are guilty of this, LOCOs are no worse than flag carriers in my opinion, and it seems to be getting worse recently in the London TMA)
Also, there's no use squawking ident as you switch from tower to radar frequency then happily telling me you are doing so. Your ident has to be in response to my instruction to properly identify you by the book..... therefore you will have to do it again - so it's not because I am not listening properly if I do instruct you to ident!
Approaching a Heathrow/Gatwick/Stansted or Luton stack when the controller is obviously busy - if you have not been told otherwise, HOLD!! You should ideally be told specifically to hold and given the sort of delay to expect, but sometimes it's not possible due RT congestion.... so don't make it worse by asking what you should do on reaching LAM/WILLO/ABBOT..... you follow your clearance, which is to the hold!
Although some things (like initial calls) seem to be becoming more slack where I work, in general, the standard of airmanship is very high
I agree with you there, its annoying too when you have leveled off aircraft and just as the blips merge, one pilot calls "XXX123 is clear of the traffic". I have been known to reply sarcastically a curt "No you're not", or "You just fly your aircraft, I'll worry about the air traffic" (if I have been having a particularly bad day).
As an aside - I have been told that pilots on some airlines are instructed through company SOPs to report approaching a cleared level, when climbing to an intermediate, non cruise level.
Pilots in the London TMA on first contact with radar calling "London ABC123"; sometimes you don't even get the 'London' bit. Give us all the info!! (All airlines are guilty of this, LOCOs are no worse than flag carriers in my opinion, and it seems to be getting worse recently in the London TMA)
Also, there's no use squawking ident as you switch from tower to radar frequency then happily telling me you are doing so. Your ident has to be in response to my instruction to properly identify you by the book..... therefore you will have to do it again - so it's not because I am not listening properly if I do instruct you to ident!
Approaching a Heathrow/Gatwick/Stansted or Luton stack when the controller is obviously busy - if you have not been told otherwise, HOLD!! You should ideally be told specifically to hold and given the sort of delay to expect, but sometimes it's not possible due RT congestion.... so don't make it worse by asking what you should do on reaching LAM/WILLO/ABBOT..... you follow your clearance, which is to the hold!
Although some things (like initial calls) seem to be becoming more slack where I work, in general, the standard of airmanship is very high
Pilots in the London TMA on first contact with radar calling "London ABC123"; sometimes you don't even get the 'London' bit. Give us all the info!! (All airlines are guilty of this, LOCOs are no worse than flag carriers in my opinion, and it seems to be getting worse recently in the London TMA)
But when you've waited 3 minutes to get a gap, are 4,000ft high, have made 5 attempts to establish contact but been stepped on every time, tried Identing to get attention and not succeeded THEN sometimes I'll just wedge in a "London XXX123 with you" type call. I don't know what else to do.
You guys are just too busy and working too hard with too few frequencies at times.
Cheers
WWW
But when you've waited 3 minutes to get a gap, are 4,000ft high, have made 5 attempts to establish contact but been stepped on every time, tried Identing to get attention and not succeeded THEN sometimes I'll just wedge in a "London XXX123 with you" type call. I don't know what else to do.
You guys are just too busy and working too hard with too few frequencies at times.
Cheers
WWW
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The twats who ask for start and pushback, fully aware that when they don't have a tug connected or ground crew, just to gain advantage over the airline next door.. *****....
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: united kingdom
Age: 62
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots who think that speed instructions are optional
LTCC has mode "S" and we can see the instantaneous IAS from the aircraft - we know when you are economical with the truth
LTCC has mode "S" and we can see the instantaneous IAS from the aircraft - we know when you are economical with the truth
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wee Weasley Welshman,
That's a fair call - it's just unfortunately what I mentioned happens regularly even when quiet. If the frequency is busy, don't worry, we do know you are there, however, it is understandable that you would like a verbal confirmation of your prescence.
But when you've waited 3 minutes to get a gap, are 4,000ft high, have made 5 attempts to establish contact but been stepped on every time, tried Identing to get attention and not succeeded THEN sometimes I'll just wedge in a "London XXX123 with you" type call. I don't know what else to do.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The dark side
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
where to start..
The 1500' heli pilot who likes to take his time on the R/T, telling me where he is, where he's going to (and sometimes why), what he's doing then, and then, before heading back to there.. all these little bits of info broken up with "ummm"s and "ehh"s.
And why does he only ever call when I've someone about to commence an SRA or I've 3 on IF training circuits, etc.
Then theres the lad at the other end of the scale
Hello XXX approach, ABCDE...
ABCDE, XXX Approach, QNH1013...
1013 A-DE. (and that's it)
And why does he only ever call when I've someone about to commence an SRA or I've 3 on IF training circuits, etc.
Then theres the lad at the other end of the scale
Hello XXX approach, ABCDE...
ABCDE, XXX Approach, QNH1013...
1013 A-DE. (and that's it)
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The KLM FK100 pilot-and you'll know who you are, that last week decided that the speed control applied was incorrect and stated that he could increase AND get past the 2 company heavies who were faster AND nearer to the airfield . I have to say most pilots are no problem at all but The Royal Dutch Airline are starting to get on the t*ts of a few of us on the south coast-and it is rarely the ex Air Uk crews either. Go figure!
. I have to say most pilots are no problem at all but The Royal Dutch Airline are starting to get on the t*ts of a few of us on the south coast-and it is rarely the ex Air Uk crews either. Go figure!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: not sure really
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If pilots are ever in any doubt or uncertainty they should ask - yes, it's annoying if the ATCO is busy and the frequency congested but it's a hell of a lot better than thinking you'll figure it out and busting through a control zone or not conforming to procedures correctly and making a busy arrival/departure/circuits sequence busy AND messy...
Also, if you say you're on frequency, LISTEN. Nothing more annoying than transmitting traffic or instructions to aircraft with NO response because they are busy yapping to their student/passenger/company freq etc....
Also, if you say you're on frequency, LISTEN. Nothing more annoying than transmitting traffic or instructions to aircraft with NO response because they are busy yapping to their student/passenger/company freq etc....
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Atlanta,GA
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess you as a pilot could learn alot from reading this thread. But letīs turn the steak for a second... just because I can.
How about that time when, after telling SS tower that we can stay on the SID ONLY due to CB cells on both sides, and being told that "okey I shall tell radar"
Getting airborne and told to turn left hdg 310 and head straight in the cell please.
We answered Unable due to CB ofcourse, and was again told "TURN LEFT HDG 310" with an litter stronger voice this time. Unable again, we aint risking it sir.
Then told to level off at 5000 whilst passing 5900 as already cleared FL70.
Now here comes the best bit... after recieving the appropriate? amount of abuse for not complying we hear an easy calling in after takeoff... controller ask if the easy can take a turn to 310... NEGATIVE due to CB..
then silence was all that we heard.
Whilst its easy to appreacitate the stress the situation may have caused on the controller I dont think there was any need to give us pure abuse for denying an unsafe clearence... especially when we took our time explaining to the twr.
So thats it... turn the steak back again so maybe we can get some more feedback from the daily operation
duece
How about that time when, after telling SS tower that we can stay on the SID ONLY due to CB cells on both sides, and being told that "okey I shall tell radar"
Getting airborne and told to turn left hdg 310 and head straight in the cell please.
We answered Unable due to CB ofcourse, and was again told "TURN LEFT HDG 310" with an litter stronger voice this time. Unable again, we aint risking it sir.
Then told to level off at 5000 whilst passing 5900 as already cleared FL70.
Now here comes the best bit... after recieving the appropriate? amount of abuse for not complying we hear an easy calling in after takeoff... controller ask if the easy can take a turn to 310... NEGATIVE due to CB..
then silence was all that we heard.
Whilst its easy to appreacitate the stress the situation may have caused on the controller I dont think there was any need to give us pure abuse for denying an unsafe clearence... especially when we took our time explaining to the twr.
So thats it... turn the steak back again so maybe we can get some more feedback from the daily operation
duece
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Surrey
Age: 46
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Maastricht, NL
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice collection so far... Well, as for me:
1. If given a direct route on contact (being still in someone else's airspace) eg. proceed "Fix 1-Fix 2", reading it back and then keeping flying on the airway - bare in mind that I might do it for separation not only to help you with the direct...
2. Requesting a higher level when there's opposite tfc 1000' above 10 nm out, and same track traffic 2000' higher just on top - of course requesting THAT level... Just wondering if you're looking at the TCAS before keying the mic
3. When cleared to eg. FL260 reading back "descending two-six-zero" - which could be "to six-zero" as well... Then I ask to confirm cleared level is FL260? "affirm, descending two-six-zero"...
4. As already mentioned before - any kind of(mainly frequency change) readback without callsign...
Keep up the good work, all the bests for everyone!
1. If given a direct route on contact (being still in someone else's airspace) eg. proceed "Fix 1-Fix 2", reading it back and then keeping flying on the airway - bare in mind that I might do it for separation not only to help you with the direct...
2. Requesting a higher level when there's opposite tfc 1000' above 10 nm out, and same track traffic 2000' higher just on top - of course requesting THAT level... Just wondering if you're looking at the TCAS before keying the mic
3. When cleared to eg. FL260 reading back "descending two-six-zero" - which could be "to six-zero" as well... Then I ask to confirm cleared level is FL260? "affirm, descending two-six-zero"...
4. As already mentioned before - any kind of(mainly frequency change) readback without callsign...
Keep up the good work, all the bests for everyone!