Peter Nielsen murderer to be retried
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Peter Nielsen murderer to be retried
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20061125/55989543.html
NZZ reports that a Swiss court has decided that a Russian man found guilty of murdering an air traffic controller in an act of revenge for the 2002 Bashkirian/DHL midair should have a new trial. Seems eight years in prison for a premeditated revenge killing is too lengthy a sentence in Switzerland.
Has time tainted my memory of this, or did this guy not hunt down Mr. Nielsen and brutally kill him in front of his family? In my opinion, eight years seems like a nice start, but still a few decades short of a complete sentence.
Dave
NZZ reports that a Swiss court has decided that a Russian man found guilty of murdering an air traffic controller in an act of revenge for the 2002 Bashkirian/DHL midair should have a new trial. Seems eight years in prison for a premeditated revenge killing is too lengthy a sentence in Switzerland.
Has time tainted my memory of this, or did this guy not hunt down Mr. Nielsen and brutally kill him in front of his family? In my opinion, eight years seems like a nice start, but still a few decades short of a complete sentence.
Dave
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In actual fact, he may not not be retried. Perhaps only resentenced.
The guilty verdict was confirmed by the appeals court. However it was the sentence that was not upheld as a result of contradictions in the justification for the sentence (as far as I understand). It has something to do with a "subconscious latent readiness to kill" and the appeals court considered this a contradiction in terms. It also felt that the comment by the original court that the defendant was "consumed by revenge" was arbitrary and not based on any facts. The State Prosecutor felt that the appeals court was being pedantic and regretted the appeal.
As there are still two appeals to other courts pending, it is as yet unsure how things will develop and what the next steps will be.
The guilty verdict was confirmed by the appeals court. However it was the sentence that was not upheld as a result of contradictions in the justification for the sentence (as far as I understand). It has something to do with a "subconscious latent readiness to kill" and the appeals court considered this a contradiction in terms. It also felt that the comment by the original court that the defendant was "consumed by revenge" was arbitrary and not based on any facts. The State Prosecutor felt that the appeals court was being pedantic and regretted the appeal.
As there are still two appeals to other courts pending, it is as yet unsure how things will develop and what the next steps will be.
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Murderer of innocent man is free.
How sad that a murderer is considered a hero. Are people so ignorant they don't care who they murder as long as they murder someone in their lust for revenge?
Poor Peter, who did his job, and was cleared of all wrong-doing, had to pay with his life because of the unwarranted hatred of this lunatic.
The real tragedy is that murder is worse than any accident.
If Peter had been guilty, to follow the justice of this madman, Peter's family should hunt him down and stab him to death. That is, IF he had been guilty. He was not, though, so as tragic as all the lives lost because of the accident, Peter's death was worse because it was deliberate. It was intentional. It was planned. It was not an accident. It was premeditated MURDER.
Peter was cleared. He did nothing wrong. Now he is dead, and the guilty are free.
What kind of sick people rejoice when an innocent man is murdered?
Or care more about the vicious murderer than the innocent victim.
Poor Peter, who did his job, and was cleared of all wrong-doing, had to pay with his life because of the unwarranted hatred of this lunatic.
The real tragedy is that murder is worse than any accident.
If Peter had been guilty, to follow the justice of this madman, Peter's family should hunt him down and stab him to death. That is, IF he had been guilty. He was not, though, so as tragic as all the lives lost because of the accident, Peter's death was worse because it was deliberate. It was intentional. It was planned. It was not an accident. It was premeditated MURDER.
Peter was cleared. He did nothing wrong. Now he is dead, and the guilty are free.
What kind of sick people rejoice when an innocent man is murdered?
Or care more about the vicious murderer than the innocent victim.
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sorry, it was Peter who cleared two aircraft to the same level. It was series of mistakes and wrongdoings from all sides (managment, Skyguide, etc..), but let's not forget why we are there...to enable safe, orderly and expeditious flow of traffic.... please don't understand this as bashing or ruining Peter's memory...but to make a muderer a hero, helps nobody and shows state of mind...he couldn't bring his family back, and just one name was added to total tally from the catastrophe...
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Lack of knowledge
sorry, it was Peter who cleared two aircraft to the same level. It was series of mistakes and wrongdoings from all sides (managment, Skyguide, etc..), but let's not forget why we are there...to enable safe, orderly and expeditious flow of traffic.... please don't understand this as bashing or ruining Peter's memory...but to make a muderer a hero, helps nobody and shows state of mind...he couldn't bring his family back, and just one name was added to total tally from the catastrophe...
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thealps - from your emotional responce I would guess, that you are ATCO from Skyguide. Belive me, I'm very well informed of the events from IFATCA and other organisations I took part in.
First he cleared the B757 to climb to FL 320 and at time
21.26.36 to climb to FL 360. At time 21.30.11 the T-154
called in.
http://www.humanfactors.illinois.edu.../nuneslaur.pdf
look, from my first days as ATCO I was imprinted with the notion, that it is of vital importance to be able to select priorities and to solve problems, which can have the grawest results first. Peter failed in that. I dont and never will say nor think that the responsibility for the crash lays exclusively in his hands. Part of the solution was in his hands and he failed to do his part, because he made a bad choice. Rest assure, that I know exactly what were the circumstances at the moment when he had to make a decision.... But one of the general rules of horisontal separation of traffic is NEVER to put two or more flights on converging course on the same level if constant attention cannot be assured.
Now, I'm very well informed about the concepts of non-punitive environment, but this doesn't releave us from the responsibilites. You can't expect from me to accept the idea that loss of separation and catastrophe are on the same level?
If you do and if you are an ATCO, you should consider some other profession...
First he cleared the B757 to climb to FL 320 and at time
21.26.36 to climb to FL 360. At time 21.30.11 the T-154
called in.
http://www.humanfactors.illinois.edu.../nuneslaur.pdf
look, from my first days as ATCO I was imprinted with the notion, that it is of vital importance to be able to select priorities and to solve problems, which can have the grawest results first. Peter failed in that. I dont and never will say nor think that the responsibility for the crash lays exclusively in his hands. Part of the solution was in his hands and he failed to do his part, because he made a bad choice. Rest assure, that I know exactly what were the circumstances at the moment when he had to make a decision.... But one of the general rules of horisontal separation of traffic is NEVER to put two or more flights on converging course on the same level if constant attention cannot be assured.
Now, I'm very well informed about the concepts of non-punitive environment, but this doesn't releave us from the responsibilites. You can't expect from me to accept the idea that loss of separation and catastrophe are on the same level?
If you do and if you are an ATCO, you should consider some other profession...
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kontrolor
By your postings you make it absolutely clear that you do NOT know all of the circumstances and therefore you are pissing the people who do know, myself included, off to a point that I'm sure is totally beyond you.
CIRCUMSTANCES or the context if you will, IS the story here. Not two alligators at FL360.
Now hush!
By your postings you make it absolutely clear that you do NOT know all of the circumstances and therefore you are pissing the people who do know, myself included, off to a point that I'm sure is totally beyond you.
CIRCUMSTANCES or the context if you will, IS the story here. Not two alligators at FL360.
Now hush!
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I'm very much familiar with all you said. was it me who swallowed single man operations and under such circumstances skyguide folk has? no. In my country there would be revolt and strike until smo would have been abolished. wait, they are forbidden by law in our country, there is no need to follow skyguide practices in every step.
and another thing - you can hush your dog, your children, but this is the last time you hush me.
and another thing - you can hush your dog, your children, but this is the last time you hush me.
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Remember,he is a russkie the gas may be switched off,if you upset them,or worse still you will have mor big issue sellers foisted upon you,if you have it there
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Kontrolor
From the Illinois report
My bold.
Quite how you can then place the blame on Peter beggars belief. I hope you NEVER have the holes line up.
The interaction between the two crews and the controller was the last,visible,human,fallible link in the trail of errors.
It could have happened to anyone.......even you.
From the Illinois report
Analysis of the event
based on technical reports and operational experience, clearly
shows how multiple human and system factors can conspire to
produce the observed outcome and it provides empirical
support for theories that highlight the difficulty associated
with divided attention across single channels, trust in
automation, and decision-making under time pressure.
based on technical reports and operational experience, clearly
shows how multiple human and system factors can conspire to
produce the observed outcome and it provides empirical
support for theories that highlight the difficulty associated
with divided attention across single channels, trust in
automation, and decision-making under time pressure.
Quite how you can then place the blame on Peter beggars belief. I hope you NEVER have the holes line up.
The interaction between the two crews and the controller was the last,visible,human,fallible link in the trail of errors.
It could have happened to anyone.......even you.
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Kontrolor
If you're unable to see the full picture in a given situation, then maybe you should consider another profession.
Any ATCO (including you apparently) knows that you shouldn't have two A/C on the same level, on converging courses, without monitoring them. But if you see that as the only essential factor in this catastrophy then I'm afraid I'll have to repeat my earlier opinion stating that you clearly don't know the circumstances.
If you don't agree- I don't care. Go on strike as you always do!
@ E W - very good point.
@ S A- my opinion exactly.
If you're unable to see the full picture in a given situation, then maybe you should consider another profession.
Any ATCO (including you apparently) knows that you shouldn't have two A/C on the same level, on converging courses, without monitoring them. But if you see that as the only essential factor in this catastrophy then I'm afraid I'll have to repeat my earlier opinion stating that you clearly don't know the circumstances.
If you don't agree- I don't care. Go on strike as you always do!
@ E W - very good point.
@ S A- my opinion exactly.
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I think I can't believe what I am reading here.
@ Kontrolor how can you focus only the fact that 2acfts were indeed on the same level and converging, being a Kontrolor yourself. Yes Pieter Nielsen was one of the last key elements in the line to be able to resolve this situation and definatly yes he has made mistakes if you look at the end result. But, how can you as a controler who has the experience in the job he was up to do and who states to know the details about this story, still put the blame on Pieter Nielsen?
I think this is a very sad and narrow way of thinking.
And even if so, if he would have been the only fatal mistake in this whole accident.... does that justify his murder?!?!?! If you think this is correct I even wonder how you still dare to do your job...
I thought the middle ages where 'Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' was valid had been long gone....
@ Kontrolor how can you focus only the fact that 2acfts were indeed on the same level and converging, being a Kontrolor yourself. Yes Pieter Nielsen was one of the last key elements in the line to be able to resolve this situation and definatly yes he has made mistakes if you look at the end result. But, how can you as a controler who has the experience in the job he was up to do and who states to know the details about this story, still put the blame on Pieter Nielsen?
I think this is a very sad and narrow way of thinking.
And even if so, if he would have been the only fatal mistake in this whole accident.... does that justify his murder?!?!?! If you think this is correct I even wonder how you still dare to do your job...
I thought the middle ages where 'Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' was valid had been long gone....
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This was very tragic but what one needs to take into account, Swiss can be very, very, very arrogant and when this man was asked for an apology, he shrugged it off as though the others life meant nothing. My guess is that is what angered the victims of the crash father and set up the revenge. Swiss need to be more understanding and not show such arrogance, especially when so many lives were lost.
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He was from denmark, not switzerland. And as usual it was a chain of events, not a single thing done by a single person. That would be a very narrow-minded and uninformed view of what happened.
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Russia never will extradite one of his citizens, so the change of verdict is a pure paper exercise.
As to who made which mistake and when , a 5 min read into the BFU final report conclusions ( from page 104 to be exact) avail via google will answer all your questions.
Last observation , Peter's wife is still a controller in CPH and my be shown what some of you are writing in here.
As to who made which mistake and when , a 5 min read into the BFU final report conclusions ( from page 104 to be exact) avail via google will answer all your questions.
Last observation , Peter's wife is still a controller in CPH and my be shown what some of you are writing in here.
Russia, a country still clinging to its 19th century ethos, where heads of state consider it OK to openly murder their own citizens in foreign lands. A country with which Western businessmen are having second thoughts of dealing.
No surprises then when this medieval thug decided to take the law into his own hands.
No surprises then when this medieval thug decided to take the law into his own hands.
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Relax folks.
I think you might have taken Kontrolor's comments a bit on the personal side, which is obviously understandable. I had the privilege to listen to someone who knew Peter Nielsen express his view on single man operations... very emotional and yet straight to the point.
I think Kontrolor just said that Peter Nielsen was the last barrier of defense (or perhaps the last slice of swiss cheese) and as such, he also failed. Emphasis is on "also", there were lots of other failures to actually allow him to be in that situation.
Back on the original topic, I obviously do share the necessity for justice in Peter Nielsen's murder. It was a horrible thing done to somebody innocent who was not to blame for the accident. However, to be true to justice I would need to ask myself if the murderer was really in a state of mind in which he could really know good from bad.
There is a reason most democracies don't put on trial underage criminals, even murderers, or if they do it's with a very light sentencing. Minors are not expected to be able to know the consecuences of their action and neither are those mentally ill. I think the trial took into consideration that the obsessively grieving father and husband was mentally impaired at the time of the murder.
To lock him up for the next 40 years will not bring Peter Nielsen back... I'd prefer a bit of mercy and forgiveness, the murderer has already the worst sentence nobody could wish for him.
I think you might have taken Kontrolor's comments a bit on the personal side, which is obviously understandable. I had the privilege to listen to someone who knew Peter Nielsen express his view on single man operations... very emotional and yet straight to the point.
I think Kontrolor just said that Peter Nielsen was the last barrier of defense (or perhaps the last slice of swiss cheese) and as such, he also failed. Emphasis is on "also", there were lots of other failures to actually allow him to be in that situation.
Back on the original topic, I obviously do share the necessity for justice in Peter Nielsen's murder. It was a horrible thing done to somebody innocent who was not to blame for the accident. However, to be true to justice I would need to ask myself if the murderer was really in a state of mind in which he could really know good from bad.
There is a reason most democracies don't put on trial underage criminals, even murderers, or if they do it's with a very light sentencing. Minors are not expected to be able to know the consecuences of their action and neither are those mentally ill. I think the trial took into consideration that the obsessively grieving father and husband was mentally impaired at the time of the murder.
To lock him up for the next 40 years will not bring Peter Nielsen back... I'd prefer a bit of mercy and forgiveness, the murderer has already the worst sentence nobody could wish for him.