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Why not try and get Leave without pay for some period of time from your present employer and have a go in Aus - if its not for you then no problems.
You may even find your present employer encouraging you to do it and everybody might learn something in the long run. It would also be a good way to see exactly what AsA are offering (ie perm vs contract or AWA).
Most of the English cricket team would come down under given the chance - of course none of them would get a game in our National team - not good enough,
I know Heerlen 2nds could do with some players though ....
(we might take Freddy he's pretty good!)
TT
You may even find your present employer encouraging you to do it and everybody might learn something in the long run. It would also be a good way to see exactly what AsA are offering (ie perm vs contract or AWA).
Most of the English cricket team would come down under given the chance - of course none of them would get a game in our National team - not good enough,
I know Heerlen 2nds could do with some players though ....
(we might take Freddy he's pretty good!)
TT
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Interesting comparison?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...1&postcount=10
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...1&postcount=10
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Sure is interesting...hm, maybe I'll have another good look at the grass over here 
Unpaid leave would be a possiblity, allthough I'm sure they'd put me in one of the other sectors upon return, because they're short of staff, and my current sector is not. And I like my sector
Human nature : wanting to have what you can't get ? I'd sure liketo try the Aussie lifestyle, because it seems so much more relaxed...and customer service actually means something over there ( what I understood from some Aussie colleagues ). Here, you should be grateful you're allowed to be a customer with any big firm/business etc... but this would take us off-topic.
An exchange program for 2 years or so would be great, but that's a far fetched dream, probably. We'll see...
Thanks for the replies..
OT
Unpaid leave would be a possiblity, allthough I'm sure they'd put me in one of the other sectors upon return, because they're short of staff, and my current sector is not. And I like my sector
Human nature : wanting to have what you can't get ? I'd sure liketo try the Aussie lifestyle, because it seems so much more relaxed...and customer service actually means something over there ( what I understood from some Aussie colleagues ). Here, you should be grateful you're allowed to be a customer with any big firm/business etc... but this would take us off-topic.
An exchange program for 2 years or so would be great, but that's a far fetched dream, probably. We'll see...
Thanks for the replies..
OT
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One thing all prospective ASA employees need to look at really closely is the roster that guys in Australia work. The guys still working there can give you an up to date idea of what they work now, but from all reports it's still not great with lots of quick turnarounds (ie 10 or 11 hours between shifts). Never realised just how bad the E,A,M,N roster was for your health till I left and started working a 6 on, sleep, 3 off roster, where you have 2 mornings, followed by 2 afternoons, followed by 2 nights. You can actually have a life with your family during your work cycle. This is a very serious consideration to anyone looking to go to Oz.
Also posted on NZ ATC jobs thread was the comment that in Oz you can work 10 on, one off, 10 on etc. (not rostered that way but with O/T), whereas here in the Middle East, we are required to have a minimum of 2 60 hr (2 and 1/2 days) breaks every 30 day period, and any time we work 7 shifts in a row, we have to have a 60 hr break after it. Sometimes it means you have to go without the odd overtime shift in the name of fatigue management but in the long run it is a good thing. I think sometimes you need regulations to protect people from themselves, and being allowed to work 10 on, one off, 10 on, is not protecting people. Again another very important thing to consider.
Also posted on NZ ATC jobs thread was the comment that in Oz you can work 10 on, one off, 10 on etc. (not rostered that way but with O/T), whereas here in the Middle East, we are required to have a minimum of 2 60 hr (2 and 1/2 days) breaks every 30 day period, and any time we work 7 shifts in a row, we have to have a 60 hr break after it. Sometimes it means you have to go without the odd overtime shift in the name of fatigue management but in the long run it is a good thing. I think sometimes you need regulations to protect people from themselves, and being allowed to work 10 on, one off, 10 on, is not protecting people. Again another very important thing to consider.
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ANSA,
Just shows how out of touch you've become. There are a multitiude of different rosters in Oz ATC. The E, A, M, N roster often requires 2 people on the N (doggo).
It isn't as common as it used to be. For instance, on Byron Group the FPCs line is 1500-2300, 1400-2200, 1200-2000, 0600-1400, ROD, ROD, 0700-1500, 0530-1212, 2300-0542, ROD, ROD......
Any newbies into Oz ATC in Brissie would expect to be on a 2 arvos, 2 mornings, 2 days off cycle til they were FPC. It would take some time on most groups to become FPC. Byron and Fraser groups would require about 18months before becoming FPC and being eligible to do doggos.
Tops is the only group that has journeyman doing doggos.
Other groups have different rosters for their circumstances. Macquarie and Hunter groups have different rosters again for winter and summer due to daylight saving.
It's not as simple as you think. FAID virtually eliminated the 10 days on, single day off. Plus, if your FAID score is above 80, you can't be forced to come in on a day off at all.
Things have changed in many ways since you were last in town, cowboy.
Just shows how out of touch you've become. There are a multitiude of different rosters in Oz ATC. The E, A, M, N roster often requires 2 people on the N (doggo).
It isn't as common as it used to be. For instance, on Byron Group the FPCs line is 1500-2300, 1400-2200, 1200-2000, 0600-1400, ROD, ROD, 0700-1500, 0530-1212, 2300-0542, ROD, ROD......
Any newbies into Oz ATC in Brissie would expect to be on a 2 arvos, 2 mornings, 2 days off cycle til they were FPC. It would take some time on most groups to become FPC. Byron and Fraser groups would require about 18months before becoming FPC and being eligible to do doggos.
Tops is the only group that has journeyman doing doggos.
Other groups have different rosters for their circumstances. Macquarie and Hunter groups have different rosters again for winter and summer due to daylight saving.
It's not as simple as you think. FAID virtually eliminated the 10 days on, single day off. Plus, if your FAID score is above 80, you can't be forced to come in on a day off at all.
Things have changed in many ways since you were last in town, cowboy.
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The condascending tone of your reply is really appreciated DP. As I said in my post though, things still aren't great. As you said in your post, guys still do the morning doggo turnaround, and they still do 8pm finishes, back for 6am starts. I never said guys are forced to do 10 on 1 off, and as you said if your FAID is above 80 you can't be forced to come in at all. I said guys sometimes need to be protected from themselves, which means having regulations that don't allow them to come in when they haven't had adequate breaks. And also you say I am out of touch by pointing out that you often are required to have two people on a night shift. Nowhere in my post did I say that you had single manned nightshifts??!!??
It shows how out of touch you are with the rest of the world if you think the rostering examples you gave show that Australian rosters are good to work. As I said to the guys considering going to Australia, and supported by your post, you will do quick turnarounds and as a result be fatigued and not see your family for days at a time. But hey if you think by me pointing this out makes me a cowboy, then fair enough. I just thought I was giving guys a heads up as to one of the big reasons there are a lot of Australian controllers now working overseas. That and whopping income tax.
As I have said to the non-Aussies working here, who are seriously looking at Oz ATC, there are a lot of positives to working in Oz. Firstly as we all know, it is a great country in which to live. But also I pointed out the facilities at the centres, eg. the cafeteria, gymnasium, pay tv, standdown rooms with proper beds etc. In addition to those points if they are able to start on about 100k as the advertisement says, then relative to the rest of Australians they will be making a good salary, and if they have a decent nest egg saved from their time in the sand pit, and can buy a house without a mortgage when they arrive in Melbourne or Brisbane, then that 100k will go a long way to having a great lifestyle. But along with the positives, you need to make sure the guys are aware of the negatives.
It shows how out of touch you are with the rest of the world if you think the rostering examples you gave show that Australian rosters are good to work. As I said to the guys considering going to Australia, and supported by your post, you will do quick turnarounds and as a result be fatigued and not see your family for days at a time. But hey if you think by me pointing this out makes me a cowboy, then fair enough. I just thought I was giving guys a heads up as to one of the big reasons there are a lot of Australian controllers now working overseas. That and whopping income tax.
As I have said to the non-Aussies working here, who are seriously looking at Oz ATC, there are a lot of positives to working in Oz. Firstly as we all know, it is a great country in which to live. But also I pointed out the facilities at the centres, eg. the cafeteria, gymnasium, pay tv, standdown rooms with proper beds etc. In addition to those points if they are able to start on about 100k as the advertisement says, then relative to the rest of Australians they will be making a good salary, and if they have a decent nest egg saved from their time in the sand pit, and can buy a house without a mortgage when they arrive in Melbourne or Brisbane, then that 100k will go a long way to having a great lifestyle. But along with the positives, you need to make sure the guys are aware of the negatives.
Last edited by AirNoServicesAustralia; 26th Nov 2006 at 02:21. Reason: Sometimes it's just not worth the trouble.
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Seems its not just me that doesn't think the rosters worked in Oz are all they should be. As posted by ****su Tonka as taken from OZ ATC Union Website.
Interesting point of difference when you consider that there is another big thread running about the Australian recruitment.
As a comparison, in Australia you can be expected to work 21 shifts with 1 day off after 10 (i.e. 10 in a row max, one day off then another 10 etc.)
There is no maximum time plugged in for radar or non-radar. Most shifts are 8-9 hours. I often do TMA Radar for 2:20 without a break, because of how tight the rosters run.
Fatigue is 'managed' in accordance with a system that is based on the FAID system. The acceptable level is equivalent of driving at 0.05 BAC.
As a comparison, in Australia you can be expected to work 21 shifts with 1 day off after 10 (i.e. 10 in a row max, one day off then another 10 etc.)
There is no maximum time plugged in for radar or non-radar. Most shifts are 8-9 hours. I often do TMA Radar for 2:20 without a break, because of how tight the rosters run.
Fatigue is 'managed' in accordance with a system that is based on the FAID system. The acceptable level is equivalent of driving at 0.05 BAC.
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To be fair, you compare to the ASA rostering to the ME and a 6 on 3 off with 2 back to back nights every cycle is something that would specifically stop me from applying to go. Even TOPS in BN has a better run and they do the most doggos. I wonder what FAID would say with that run? (not that faid is worth a pinch of ****).
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To be fair, you compare to the ASA rostering to the ME and a 6 on 3 off with 2 back to back nights every cycle is something that would specifically stop me from applying to go. Even TOPS in BN has a better run and they do the most doggos. I wonder what FAID would say with that run? (not that faid is worth a pinch of ****).
I had one of the lower sick leave usuages in the group of about 6 days a year (avg in the group 10+), since being here in the pit I have had only 1 day off, I guess it is due to the fact that I am no where near as tired. By day 3 of the EAMN or EDMM or EAMNN with 2 (or 3 days after double night shift) off on Tops I was so cranky and tired my kids and dogs would be avoiding me. Additionally there was still no rostered breaks on the busier night shifts on Tops and Ocean which I enjoy here.
The reality is for those folks going to BN centre is that you will more than likely end up on night shift rich enviroment of Ocean or Tops than the friendly 'climes' of sunny Byron (daylight) radar group.
As for FAID I distinctly recall that nonsense program telling a manager that one of the Tops guys would be less fatigued if he came in for another night shift (third in a row)!
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That quote was just snatched from the other thread on PPrune:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...1&postcount=10
I dunno why there is a reference to 0.05 BAC though?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...1&postcount=10
I dunno why there is a reference to 0.05 BAC though?
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I guess other than Funk, I must be the only one that found quick turnarounds bloody horrible and the Morning, Doggo same day turnaround, just downright dangerous. Also to go in on a night shift with no scheduled break relief was in my opinion criminal.
Yes Tobzalp, we work 2 nightshifts in a row. We have 17 hours off between our 2 Morning shifts, then 24 hours off between our 2nd morning and first Arvo. Then 16 hours off between our afternoons, and then 24 hours off between our arvo into our night, then 15 hours off between our nightshifts, and then a sleep day and 3 full days off (which is long enough to pop over to Paris or London for a dirty weekend as guys here have been known to do). So bottom line is we get to our first nightshift not fatigued, but rested and ready to go. We then enter our second nightshift with ample opportunity to rest and recover. We then have a nice long break to get over work and still have time left to enjoy ourselves. I would take that over the constant zombie state 10 and 11 hour turnarounds left me in thanks.
But hey, if you guys enjoy that roster, good luck to you. As I said I am just warning the guys going there from O/S cos when I tell the guys here the rosters worked in Oz, they can't believe you do it. Enjoy!
Yes Tobzalp, we work 2 nightshifts in a row. We have 17 hours off between our 2 Morning shifts, then 24 hours off between our 2nd morning and first Arvo. Then 16 hours off between our afternoons, and then 24 hours off between our arvo into our night, then 15 hours off between our nightshifts, and then a sleep day and 3 full days off (which is long enough to pop over to Paris or London for a dirty weekend as guys here have been known to do). So bottom line is we get to our first nightshift not fatigued, but rested and ready to go. We then enter our second nightshift with ample opportunity to rest and recover. We then have a nice long break to get over work and still have time left to enjoy ourselves. I would take that over the constant zombie state 10 and 11 hour turnarounds left me in thanks.
But hey, if you guys enjoy that roster, good luck to you. As I said I am just warning the guys going there from O/S cos when I tell the guys here the rosters worked in Oz, they can't believe you do it. Enjoy!
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Hey Funk, you're not one of the three brothers that recently went to ME are you?
ANSA, sounds like you're still got the chip on your shoulder. I reread my post, and it seems that the only condescending bit was where I called you cowboy and I said you might be out of touch. How long since you worked for AsA? Maybe things have changed just a touch since you've been gone, bevan boy.
ANSA, sounds like you're still got the chip on your shoulder. I reread my post, and it seems that the only condescending bit was where I called you cowboy and I said you might be out of touch. How long since you worked for AsA? Maybe things have changed just a touch since you've been gone, bevan boy.
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I agree wholeheartedly with ANSA's asessment of the roster. Here in Canada, we work sked's very similar to Australia. A combination of 6/3, 6/4, 6/4 sounds good, but it's usually compressed, leaving you with zero time for family/relationships/partying during your work cycle. Combine that with tons of overtime, (in the busier/more demanding sectors) and we end up working 9/1, YES, that's 9 days of work, one day of rest, then it starts again. Not good for your social life, nor your health! Been doing it for years.
PS: Looking forward to the (relaxed) roster in the sandpit.......
PS: Looking forward to the (relaxed) roster in the sandpit.......
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Combine that with tons of overtime,
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Originally Posted by DirtyPierre
Don't have to work the overtime
Something that one or two people I have spoken with back in Blighty can't believe is that you can be scheduled overtime in advance of the roster being published. We work a 56 day roster of which the maximum amount of overtime is 96 hours. Here in the 'Peg, several people have been "timed out" with their overtime allocation before even starting the new 56 day. And before anyone pipes up "Why don't you just turn it back", the response for the rostering people is "It's your's if no one else can take it!"...there is no option.
For the first time in quite a long time this weekend I actually have 3 days off in a row. Of course, the old argument starts you're getting paid good money for it, and that's true, but 9/1 sucks, and as Canoehead says, it ain't good for your health.
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I don't see the issue with overtime in OZ. I have done maybe 5 in as many years. I have had hundreds more calls for me to go in however. This is Airservices' problem, not mine.
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As I recall, only 1-2 years ago, the Manager of a large centre somewhere in Australia, suggested it was indeed the controllers problem - that their was an expectation not to refuse reasonable overtime. Reasonable overtime was then determined to be one 8 hours shift every fortnight - that is 20+ extra shifts a year.
A further suggestion was implied that refusal could be constituted as illegal industrial action - not sure that this was tested, however I have seen extreme pressure being applied over the phone by some of the prairie dogs to some of the more recent arrivals to get them to come in. The older guys generally "have just taken the top off a coldy sorry (hic)". (At 7am!)
A further suggestion was implied that refusal could be constituted as illegal industrial action - not sure that this was tested, however I have seen extreme pressure being applied over the phone by some of the prairie dogs to some of the more recent arrivals to get them to come in. The older guys generally "have just taken the top off a coldy sorry (hic)". (At 7am!)
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Well Dirty Pierre I have to admire your courage and backbone, because it takes a brave man to start name calling on an anonymous forum. Courageous, truly courageous! 
The point I was making was that while yes you can knock back overtime in Australia, you can also take copious amounts, which in the end is to the detriment of your health and life outside of work. The point I was making was that here in the Middle East (and I think in the UK, as our regulations are pretty much copied from the UK CARS), the individual is effectively protected from their own greed, by forcing them to have a minimum of 2 60hr breaks per 30 days, and after 7 shifts, they are forced to have a minimum 60 hours off before they work again.
To the guys going to Australia, even if I haven't worked there for a few years, I have constantly worked with guys leaving there since I left, who say that you will work quick turn around shifts, and you will do the dreaded morning-doggo turnaround, and you will be called constantly to do overtime. If you don't have a problem with 10 or 11 hour turnarounds, and you are quite happy to work-eat-sleep-work-eat-sleep-work then go right ahead, but if you would prefer to work-eat-gym-beer-sleep-work-eat-movie-shag-sleep-work-eat-sport-beer-beer-beer-sleep-work then have good long think about it.
The point I was making was that while yes you can knock back overtime in Australia, you can also take copious amounts, which in the end is to the detriment of your health and life outside of work. The point I was making was that here in the Middle East (and I think in the UK, as our regulations are pretty much copied from the UK CARS), the individual is effectively protected from their own greed, by forcing them to have a minimum of 2 60hr breaks per 30 days, and after 7 shifts, they are forced to have a minimum 60 hours off before they work again.
To the guys going to Australia, even if I haven't worked there for a few years, I have constantly worked with guys leaving there since I left, who say that you will work quick turn around shifts, and you will do the dreaded morning-doggo turnaround, and you will be called constantly to do overtime. If you don't have a problem with 10 or 11 hour turnarounds, and you are quite happy to work-eat-sleep-work-eat-sleep-work then go right ahead, but if you would prefer to work-eat-gym-beer-sleep-work-eat-movie-shag-sleep-work-eat-sport-beer-beer-beer-sleep-work then have good long think about it.
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if you would prefer to work-eat-gym-beer-sleep-work-eat-movie-shag-sleep-work-eat-sport-beer-beer-beer-sleep-work then have good long think about it.
Oh and yes, add a few more shags in there.