What do you know about SACTA???
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I have been to Gatwick and asked the controllers two questions -
1. Do you like EFPS?
2. Would you prefer paper strips?
Answer 1 "Hell yes"
Answer 2
They did say that Heathrow would need everything to be totally different
1. Do you like EFPS?
2. Would you prefer paper strips?
Answer 1 "Hell yes"
Answer 2
They did say that Heathrow would need everything to be totally different
Bit of trumpet blowing going on here?
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BD,
I'm not talking about 620 different answers, I'm talking about one of two answers. Yes or no. It depends on who you talk to, it also depends whether it's off the record, or more official, or if a manager is present. Even getting people to sign letters informing management of concerns gets difficult if some people have future aspirations for promotion. Oh, they agree with you in private, but don't want to damage their prospects. 
I have no problems with the project team in general. It is those 'in charge' who are more concerned with deadlines, budgets and their own workload rather than the ATC requirement and from that safety and service provsion, that I have a problem with.
And what if the simulations show that the ATC requirements are not being met? Should we then dismiss them as simulations and see what happens in the real world?
We are. We have been doing that for, what, two years?
Firstly we were told we were being anti-change and that it was just lack of familiarity. Then we were told to wait until the start of our training in the sim and see what we felt then. Then we were told to wait until we got to level 2 (busier) in the sim, and see how we felt. Then we were told to wait until level 3 (even busier) in the sim, and see how we felt. Then we were told to wait until after our shadowing (following through real traffic and R/T in our new tower with EFPS) and see how we felt. Funny how we're still saying the same thing. Funny how EFPS instructors, like me, have now literally hundereds of hours using EFPS at Heathrow, and still we're told it's a lack of familiarity. Really funny. We've been laughing about it for two years.
Check your PMs.
Of course! Ask 600 ATCO's about what they want you get 620 answers.
I have no problems with the project team in general. It is those 'in charge' who are more concerned with deadlines, budgets and their own workload rather than the ATC requirement and from that safety and service provsion, that I have a problem with.
You can simulate and build scenarios as much as you like but that never ever achieves meeting the real world goal because different people use the system in subtly different ways.
So if there is such a HUGE level of concern I would assume that these people are feeding this back into the project? They're the only ones who can make the project aware of these perceived difficulties and ensure they go on the risk register.
Firstly we were told we were being anti-change and that it was just lack of familiarity. Then we were told to wait until the start of our training in the sim and see what we felt then. Then we were told to wait until we got to level 2 (busier) in the sim, and see how we felt. Then we were told to wait until level 3 (even busier) in the sim, and see how we felt. Then we were told to wait until after our shadowing (following through real traffic and R/T in our new tower with EFPS) and see how we felt. Funny how we're still saying the same thing. Funny how EFPS instructors, like me, have now literally hundereds of hours using EFPS at Heathrow, and still we're told it's a lack of familiarity. Really funny. We've been laughing about it for two years.
Check your PMs.
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BD,
I'm not talking about 620 different answers, I'm talking about one of two answers. Yes or no. It depends on who you talk to, it also depends whether it's off the record, or more official, or if a manager is present. Even getting people to sign letters informing management of concerns gets difficult if some people have future aspirations for promotion. Oh, they agree with you in private, but don't want to damage their prospects.
I'm not talking about 620 different answers, I'm talking about one of two answers. Yes or no. It depends on who you talk to, it also depends whether it's off the record, or more official, or if a manager is present. Even getting people to sign letters informing management of concerns gets difficult if some people have future aspirations for promotion. Oh, they agree with you in private, but don't want to damage their prospects.
And what if the simulations show that the ATC requirements are not being met? Should we then dismiss them as simulations and see what happens in the real world?
Firstly we were told we were being anti-change and that it was just lack of familiarity. Then we were told to wait until the start of our training in the sim and see what we felt then. Then we were told to wait until we got to level 2 (busier) in the sim, and see how we felt. Then we were told to wait until level 3 (even busier) in the sim, and see how we felt. Then we were told to wait until after our shadowing (following through real traffic and R/T in our new tower with EFPS) and see how we felt. Funny how we're still saying the same thing.
Check your PMs.
BD
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Sorry can't let this pass...
.... but then those problems are IGNORED in NERL because fixing them isn't expedient, or would mean some sort of delay or re-budget. Yes, I am am on the shop floor, not the fluffy world of the fourth floor, and that IS how it REALLY is.
All the claptrap about how NERL "listens" is just that, claptrap. Believe anything else and you are fooling yourself.
. More b**locks. It's NEVER too late to stop a program and revert to what actually works. It does however put egg on the faces of those so important managers and that will never do, will it?
BEX
The culture in NSL must be very different to that in NERL where we openly encourage people to tell us the problems.
All the claptrap about how NERL "listens" is just that, claptrap. Believe anything else and you are fooling yourself.
By the time you're shadowing its too late to change things
BEX
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Sorry can't let this pass...
.... but then those problems are IGNORED in NERL because fixing them isn't expedient, or would mean some sort of delay or re-budget. Yes, I am am on the shop floor, not the fluffy world of the fourth floor, and that IS how it REALLY is.
All the claptrap about how NERL "listens" is just that, claptrap. Believe anything else and you are fooling yourself.
.... but then those problems are IGNORED in NERL because fixing them isn't expedient, or would mean some sort of delay or re-budget. Yes, I am am on the shop floor, not the fluffy world of the fourth floor, and that IS how it REALLY is.
All the claptrap about how NERL "listens" is just that, claptrap. Believe anything else and you are fooling yourself.
More b**locks. It's NEVER too late to stop a program and revert to what actually works. It does however put egg on the faces of those so important managers and that will never do, will it?
a) What was implemented didn't work.
and/or
b) What was implemented caused a service delivery impact which was ongoing (ie it was worse than the thing it replaced).
BD
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So everything is rosy then?
But thats the point. If the kit is poor no-one seems to be taking any notice because of the drive to meet the schdedule, the thall shalt not miss schedule. No one seems to have the guts to pull the plug. See EFPS and EGLL.
Yeah, well it would, wouldn't it. I'm a mere operational ATCO, and what would I know?
BTW was DATALAND on SIS one of yours? I'm guessing it was.
Rgds BEX
then it is too late IF you're going to meet the implementation schedule.
I'm sorry Bexil but your view differs to mine and I'm working on several projects delivering to LACC.
BTW was DATALAND on SIS one of yours? I'm guessing it was.
Rgds BEX
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Everything has a challenge and some projects are more challenging than others.
And if the kit proves to be poor in operation and the audit trail shows that management were aware of the deficiencies its those managers who will pay the price, quite literally for some as their bonuses will be lost. NATS is now more business focussed than its been in its entire history and there are professional business managers who won't tolerate poor implementation of projects just to meet a date. As witness iFACTS which has slipped a year now. So they could also lose their jobs as well as their bonus.
You know your job and your job, with the greatest respect, isn't in projects.
LOL! You've got a fixation on yea olde NERC project. Nothing to do with me but coincedentally I was talking about it with one of its authors last week. The problem with it was in its implementation. It was designed to be dynamic but SIS is a static system DOH! Thats why its so pathetic but by the time they realised that it was too late to take it out as would have required a change to the code, so it was left in.
BD
But thats the point. If the kit is poor no-one seems to be taking any notice because of the drive to meet the schdedule, the thall shalt not miss schedule. No one seems to have the guts to pull the plug. See EFPS and EGLL.
Yeah, well it would, wouldn't it. I'm a mere operational ATCO, and what would I know?
BTW was DATALAND on SIS one of yours? I'm guessing it was.
BD
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Have any of you had the chance to visiting any of the spanish ACC and see SACTA fully operating on site?
Does this practice of visiting foreign locations exist on any of both directions (either ESP/UK or UK/ESP) ??
Rgds.
Does this practice of visiting foreign locations exist on any of both directions (either ESP/UK or UK/ESP) ??
Rgds.
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NATS has a team in Espana on the Joint Venture and several Spanish controllers have seen the iFACTS demonstrator at Swanwick and participated in one of the simulations at Bournemouth.BD
Of course, we all know that there was never going to be such a vote. The option was never there, as the old ops room had been vandalised with indecent haste to prevent such embarrassing thoughts being aired.
Even if a vote had been held, there were so many factors which would have come into play that I suspect "going back" would not have been the winning option. By that stage most "shop floor" staff were so heartily sick and tired of the constant disruption to their lives that it was a relief to sit still, even in such an uncomfortable environment as Swanwick.
However, there was by no means 100% acceptance of the NATS vision of a better life. Why else would controllers who had been posted to the utopian Swanwick opt to return to old-fashioned West Drayton with such alacrity? Can it be a coincidence that nearly all of those operational staff "of a certain age" decided to take early retirement rather than enjoy a few more years of the glorious south-coast life-style, despite management pleas to stay on amidst long-term staff shortages?
I realise that there will be a few smirks, and a warm feeling that "the whingers have left", but, both on here and from my continuing contacts with serving members of staff, I have the distinct feeling that nothing has really changed in the implementation of new projects. It is still reminiscent of the first day of the Somme, where the Generals have a glorious vision of a "cake walk across no-man's land" and the PBI end up in the midst of the muck and bullets.
In the words of Black Adder, "Good luck everybody!".
NN
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BD
"Our survey said ..."
Methinks you're confusing a user satisfaction survey with an episode of Family Fortunes. How apt!!! Perhaps NATS should employ Les Dennis as a project manager. At least he admits to being a comedian.
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Okay BDINOU,
Since you seem to trot out the management line at EVERY opportunity, rather than REALITY that I, and my Operational colleagues, actually experience every working day, what projects has NATS absolutely completely screwed up in the last few years? Or is NATS asolutely perfect?
Ref the closure of the help desk. People just got fed up with being told "it can't be changed". Try not to confuse users resignation at being stuck with less than good system, with user acceptance..... or are you gonna carry on fooling yourself? (No change there then)
BEX
Since you seem to trot out the management line at EVERY opportunity, rather than REALITY that I, and my Operational colleagues, actually experience every working day, what projects has NATS absolutely completely screwed up in the last few years? Or is NATS asolutely perfect?
Ref the closure of the help desk. People just got fed up with being told "it can't be changed". Try not to confuse users resignation at being stuck with less than good system, with user acceptance..... or are you gonna carry on fooling yourself? (No change there then)
BEX
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Okay BDINOU,
Since you seem to trot out the management line at EVERY opportunity, rather than REALITY that I, and my Operational colleagues, actually experience every working day, what projects has NATS absolutely completely screwed up in the last few years? Or is NATS asolutely perfect?
Ref the closure of the help desk. People just got fed up with being told "it can't be changed". Try not to confuse users resignation at being stuck with less than good system, with user acceptance..... or are you gonna carry on fooling yourself? (No change there then)
BEX
Since you seem to trot out the management line at EVERY opportunity, rather than REALITY that I, and my Operational colleagues, actually experience every working day, what projects has NATS absolutely completely screwed up in the last few years? Or is NATS asolutely perfect?
Ref the closure of the help desk. People just got fed up with being told "it can't be changed". Try not to confuse users resignation at being stuck with less than good system, with user acceptance..... or are you gonna carry on fooling yourself? (No change there then)
BEX
BD
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I expect BD just gave up an un-winnable argument, I'm on his side after trying and suceeding in delivering projects in NATS. The only common thread is you can't satisfy all the people all the time, and ATC will whinge incessantly whatever you do to meet their wishes.
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.... But there have been project that ended up complete cock ups haven't there? That's what BD is trying to avoid answering.
I'm all for trumpeting successes, but that has to be temepred by the admission that quite often it goes badly wrong. I don't very much like the "everything in the garden is rosy" propoganda put out by BDIONU and management. I prefer reality.
Now if BD had said yep, this project or that project was a heap of c**p, but we've learned from it and were not doing anything that like again, that would be a result. Instead we're treated to the same old claptrap.
BEX
I'm all for trumpeting successes, but that has to be temepred by the admission that quite often it goes badly wrong. I don't very much like the "everything in the garden is rosy" propoganda put out by BDIONU and management. I prefer reality.
Now if BD had said yep, this project or that project was a heap of c**p, but we've learned from it and were not doing anything that like again, that would be a result. Instead we're treated to the same old claptrap.
BEX