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BDiONU -
What you say is surely just a way for management to get out of paying a fair wage. Licensing issues aside, the pay scales are (supposedly) based on complexity and how busy a unit is.
Whether the ATCO concerned holds a 'Yellow Peril' or not does not change how hard or not they have to work.
NATS took the contract on knowing the anomalies in the licensing - or at least if they did not, the management needs another boot up the
.
Working out where someonone should be on the pay scale is merely an issue of applying the much heralded banding formula - no more and no less. Other issues are just an excuse
As for operating on blue MOD licences and being restricted as to where they could work (whether or not that is the case)... what about an ATCO that is only capable of working at a band one tower only unit - surely by their ability they are limited in their ability to work elsewhere and therefore, by your reasoning, should maybe not be on a pay scale!!
A question for Gib controllers and ATSAs - do your new terms of employment state that you are a mobile grade?? If so, that is even more strength to your elbow. Good luck
What you say is surely just a way for management to get out of paying a fair wage. Licensing issues aside, the pay scales are (supposedly) based on complexity and how busy a unit is.
Whether the ATCO concerned holds a 'Yellow Peril' or not does not change how hard or not they have to work.
NATS took the contract on knowing the anomalies in the licensing - or at least if they did not, the management needs another boot up the
.Working out where someonone should be on the pay scale is merely an issue of applying the much heralded banding formula - no more and no less. Other issues are just an excuse
As for operating on blue MOD licences and being restricted as to where they could work (whether or not that is the case)... what about an ATCO that is only capable of working at a band one tower only unit - surely by their ability they are limited in their ability to work elsewhere and therefore, by your reasoning, should maybe not be on a pay scale!!
A question for Gib controllers and ATSAs - do your new terms of employment state that you are a mobile grade?? If so, that is even more strength to your elbow. Good luck
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Originally Posted by anotherthing
BDiONU - What you say is surely just a way for management to get out of paying a fair wage.:
NATS took the contract on knowing the anomalies in the licensing -
As for operating on blue MOD licences and being restricted as to where they could work (whether or not that is the case)... what about an ATCO that is only capable of working at a band one tower only unit - surely by their ability they are limited in their ability to work elsewhere and therefore, by your reasoning, should maybe not be on a pay scale!!
BD
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<<one of the senior managers ........ doubles as a radar controller,>>
Now that is something I really would like to see........ Do you sell tickets for these events?
Now that is something I really would like to see........ Do you sell tickets for these events?
Certainly, as far as NATS Airports (NSL) is concerned, there are plenty of 'senior managers' who - if ATCOs - also provide operational cover, albeit for sickness cover and/or leave relief.Such locations include:-
Aberdeen
Belfast
Birmingham
Bristol
Cardiff
Gatwick
London/City
Luton
Southampton
Stansted.
I'm not talking here about watch managers/supervisors but individuals who are part of the unit management.
The days that you (and I) can recall 25 years ago at LHR when not even the watch managers/supervisors were 'valid' have long gone. Even 15 years ago at places like Gatwick, such staff were required to hold a Unit Licence Endorsement ('validation').
NSL (the NATS Airports business) is not the inefficient, overblown civil service 'Ministry' animal that it was (which in part, explains the remarks from the staff at LXGB, about which I make no comment...).
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BDiNOU
I think we are talking at cross purposes here - NATS does not grade ATCOs as such (unless you are destined to be a hallowed Heathrow God). However there are ATCOs out there who for whatever reason are unable to validate at one unit and end up working at a quieter and easier unit. I am talking about ability here, not vagaries in the training system, which is far from perfect.
These ATCOs are not, by their inability to work at more complex/busy units, fully mobile. Just the same as NATS ATCOs with blue licences are not fully mobile.
I mentioned it merely to make a point - not all NATS ATCOS can do all the ATCO jobs in their discipline.
I would not expect NATS to address any anomolies in the licensing issue before being awarded a contract - it does not make sense as a business. However, banding and pay scales within NATS are based solely on complexity and levels of traffic - they have nothing to do with licensing issues.
It's a bit of a moot issue anyways, as Gib controllers have yellow perils. However it's to do with principle and ethics, something senior NATS management seemed to have lost along the way.
NATS management have a transparent policy of trying to divide and then conquer it's workforce - for example the £250 bung given to people who did not qualify for HTD if they voted to bin it for those who did qualify, not to mention the upcoming pensions issue.
There is enough division within the company caused by the airports/centres issue and who makes what profit etc etc. We do not need there to be further issues with foreign contracts.
The only possible way around it would be to make a sub division of NATS to deal with foreign contracts and run it as a separate business and to make sure that everyone was aware of this... otherwise as a fully mobile grade, ATCOs are within their rights to request a transfer from say Luton to Gibraltar (tho getting it would be another thing) and all ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs would rightfully expect to be on the same set of company pay scales (with the banding).
I think we are talking at cross purposes here - NATS does not grade ATCOs as such (unless you are destined to be a hallowed Heathrow God). However there are ATCOs out there who for whatever reason are unable to validate at one unit and end up working at a quieter and easier unit. I am talking about ability here, not vagaries in the training system, which is far from perfect.
These ATCOs are not, by their inability to work at more complex/busy units, fully mobile. Just the same as NATS ATCOs with blue licences are not fully mobile.
I mentioned it merely to make a point - not all NATS ATCOS can do all the ATCO jobs in their discipline.
I would not expect NATS to address any anomolies in the licensing issue before being awarded a contract - it does not make sense as a business. However, banding and pay scales within NATS are based solely on complexity and levels of traffic - they have nothing to do with licensing issues.
It's a bit of a moot issue anyways, as Gib controllers have yellow perils. However it's to do with principle and ethics, something senior NATS management seemed to have lost along the way.
NATS management have a transparent policy of trying to divide and then conquer it's workforce - for example the £250 bung given to people who did not qualify for HTD if they voted to bin it for those who did qualify, not to mention the upcoming pensions issue.
There is enough division within the company caused by the airports/centres issue and who makes what profit etc etc. We do not need there to be further issues with foreign contracts.
The only possible way around it would be to make a sub division of NATS to deal with foreign contracts and run it as a separate business and to make sure that everyone was aware of this... otherwise as a fully mobile grade, ATCOs are within their rights to request a transfer from say Luton to Gibraltar (tho getting it would be another thing) and all ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs would rightfully expect to be on the same set of company pay scales (with the banding).
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Originally Posted by anotherthing
The only possible way around it would be to make a sub division of NATS to deal with foreign contracts and run it as a separate business and to make sure that everyone was aware of this... otherwise as a fully mobile grade, ATCOs are within their rights to request a transfer from say Luton to Gibraltar (tho getting it would be another thing) and all ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs would rightfully expect to be on the same set of company pay scales (with the banding).
BD
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CAP 493 - you forgot Farnborough...
Thanks for the correction.
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Originally Posted by CAP493
You're just a little out-of-date LHR Director Certainly, as far as NATS Airports (NSL) is concerned, there are plenty of 'senior managers' who - if ATCOs - also provide operational cover, albeit for sickness cover and/or leave relief.
Such locations include:-
Southampton
Certainly, as far as NATS Airports (NSL) is concerned, there are plenty of 'senior managers' who - if ATCOs - also provide operational cover, albeit for sickness cover and/or leave relief.Such locations include:-
Southampton
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Number 2 -
I think that is where NATS has gone wrong in the past - it has tried to make managers out of ATCOs. Some of the ATCOs were totally inept due to personality (but their face fits), others would probably do a good job if they were given real management training - something NATS could learn from others including the miliatry.
Bring in managers from outside - as long as they are given a proper induction programme that allows them to totally understand what is involved in our business. That includes the duties of all personnel.
Unfortunately, although the Red Barron may be a good hard nosed businessman he is perceived as not giving a t ss about the workforce and therefore has failed at one of the most important parts of being a manager.
I think that is where NATS has gone wrong in the past - it has tried to make managers out of ATCOs. Some of the ATCOs were totally inept due to personality (but their face fits), others would probably do a good job if they were given real management training - something NATS could learn from others including the miliatry.
Bring in managers from outside - as long as they are given a proper induction programme that allows them to totally understand what is involved in our business. That includes the duties of all personnel.
Unfortunately, although the Red Barron may be a good hard nosed businessman he is perceived as not giving a t
ss about the workforce and therefore has failed at one of the most important parts of being a manager.
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"Before we know it they`ll be putting HR people in those positions, or anyone else prepared to sing the company song (however ridiculous the words are). "
Whilst not strictly HR, the recent appointment of the Luton GM has proved that! Slippery Slope!!
Whilst not strictly HR, the recent appointment of the Luton GM has proved that! Slippery Slope!!
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BDiONU,
You asked whether we are signed up to NATS terms and conditions. Why are the answers to everything to do with Gib so complicated? The short, and technically correct answer, is 'No'. The reason being that NATS took us over under TUPE, so we are still bound by the Serco T & C's. However, we have undergone six months of intense NATSification (Nazification ?) and indoctrination into the NATS Management System, and as far as the unit is concerned we are NATS. But although the staff are employed by NATS, the pay and conditions are still as they were with Serco. Apart from allowances, it would seem, where for some reason we are allowed the NATS scale of accomodation and meal allowances on official trips. Management seem to be cherry-picking bits and pieces from the various terms and conditions so we don't know where we are, who we are, or what we are entitled to. This is what is pi**ing us off.
You asked whether we are signed up to NATS terms and conditions. Why are the answers to everything to do with Gib so complicated? The short, and technically correct answer, is 'No'. The reason being that NATS took us over under TUPE, so we are still bound by the Serco T & C's. However, we have undergone six months of intense NATSification (Nazification ?) and indoctrination into the NATS Management System, and as far as the unit is concerned we are NATS. But although the staff are employed by NATS, the pay and conditions are still as they were with Serco. Apart from allowances, it would seem, where for some reason we are allowed the NATS scale of accomodation and meal allowances on official trips. Management seem to be cherry-picking bits and pieces from the various terms and conditions so we don't know where we are, who we are, or what we are entitled to. This is what is pi**ing us off.
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Originally Posted by Loki
ForestFlyer:
Before we know it they`ll be putting HR people in those positions, or anyone else prepared to sing the company song (however ridiculous the words are).
Before we know it they`ll be putting HR people in those positions, or anyone else prepared to sing the company song (however ridiculous the words are).
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...it has tried to make managers out of ATCOs. Some of the ATCOs were totally inept due to personality (but their face fits)...
Whilst not strictly HR, the recent appointment of the Luton GM has proved that! Slippery Slope!!
NATS is not the only company where this ATCO-to-Manager process has sometimes proved unsatisfactory; SERCo (and its predecessor IAL) is just the same, so was was Airwork (RIP), and so too are many non-NATS (i.e. independant) ATC units in the UK.
...something NATS could learn from others including the Military.
The debate can be summed up in one sentence: 'horses for courses' - and that doesn't necessarily mean having ATCOs as managers!
