When did BMA A320 pilots get an ATC licence????
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Do aircraft obey speed limit points in LTMA even when on a heading towards the holding fix? Three times in the last couple of days, when working the Talla sector, I have asked aircraft (all different companies) their speed when they are in the vicinity of TLA on a heading towards TARTN. All were catching other traffic 10 to 12 miles ahead, below F130 and all with no shame advised 310/300/300 respectively. The SLPs are 250Kts, 10 before TLA when below F140. I had not asked them their speed previously and thought that they would slow down. I know, never assume in ATC, but you would think that pilots could read the STAR charts and not break the rules.
Since this I have been told by a pilot through a colleague that when an aircraft is given a heading it negates the STAR arrival and therefore the SLPs, somewhat akin to clearance to a new level negating the previous level restriction.
Any comments from TC controllers on what aircraft do in LTMA when on headings towards the hold.
Also any comments from our pilot friends on flight deck procedures and aircraft speed when given a heading to separate from other traffic, which is also approaching the same holding fix, but still roughly following the STAR.
TUTH
Since this I have been told by a pilot through a colleague that when an aircraft is given a heading it negates the STAR arrival and therefore the SLPs, somewhat akin to clearance to a new level negating the previous level restriction.
Any comments from TC controllers on what aircraft do in LTMA when on headings towards the hold.
Also any comments from our pilot friends on flight deck procedures and aircraft speed when given a heading to separate from other traffic, which is also approaching the same holding fix, but still roughly following the STAR.
TUTH
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CFD.
I think this is one of the creeping problems and a visit to a centre might help. When there is dead time on the R/T we are
1. planning 2 moving new traffic into the plan 3. telephone calls for coordination/planning hold/speaking to the military 4. working a plan with my colleague. 5,. etccccccccc.
While puting in the adjacent point in your FMS is a superb idea, may I suggest you then fly the published speed and cut down on the R/t. This may mean you are 3 minutes slower into wherever but the controller has extra thinking time and you may avoid the hold(4 mins+).
We try to provide the best service and let me tell you the guys I work alongside are superb. We do not tell you when to select flaps/ gear/ that little light to tell people to sit down. Please do the same for us.
I think this is one of the creeping problems and a visit to a centre might help. When there is dead time on the R/T we are
1. planning 2 moving new traffic into the plan 3. telephone calls for coordination/planning hold/speaking to the military 4. working a plan with my colleague. 5,. etccccccccc.
While puting in the adjacent point in your FMS is a superb idea, may I suggest you then fly the published speed and cut down on the R/t. This may mean you are 3 minutes slower into wherever but the controller has extra thinking time and you may avoid the hold(4 mins+).
We try to provide the best service and let me tell you the guys I work alongside are superb. We do not tell you when to select flaps/ gear/ that little light to tell people to sit down. Please do the same for us.
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Originally Posted by RAC/OPS
Plumaveloz wrote:
Transavias are a good example of them...
Would that be the company or the type?!!
Transavias are a good example of them...
Would that be the company or the type?!!
ATC: "TransaviaXXXX speedback 250 knots" (FL140, 20 miles to IAF Vilna)
Pilot: "eer, who is our preceding traffic?
ATC: "At 12 of your position, 6 milles, lower level, an 737 from EasyJet"
Pilot: "Oh,...but, we can pass them easyly, he he he?
ATC: "Negative sirs, they are closer and lower and you are number 4 now. Please, speedback 240 knots or less"
Pilot: "Roger"
My foul, didnīt ask for a read back. The transavia didnīt slowed down and had to give him vectors to the localizer.
It is just an example. Donīt mind that everyone flies like that, but I have the feeling that their company limitations are less restrictive than others.
Regards,
Á.
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Just for the purposes of fair play, having named the company involved could dances with sheep provide their watch at ScACC? 
When ATC vector a flight off a standard route they should give the reason. It is the lack of communication between the ATCO and the Pilot that causes confusion.
I think that dances with sheep could try to remember that pilots do not badger them half as much as they should if we were to stick to the rules!
How often are flights put on vectors that "appear" to be taking us past the hold (clearance limit on the arrival) but we are not told if we will be turned towards the hold at a late stage or if we are being vectored towards base.
How often are we at a speed restriction that is above the holding speed but we have not been told that we are being vectored past the hold.....do we ask to slow up for the hold?
I am on a vector passing tartan but have not been given a clearance beyond the clearance limit and ATC are busy.......do I a) plough on or b) comply with my clearance limit as issued by ATC and turn towards the hold fix while trying to contact ATC?........not everything that the ATC operatives do is perfect either so perhaps both sides needf to look at what they do!
Having said that, I would not question an ATC instruction designed for sequencing or separation just because it looked like we were being placed number 2........what would we crow about all those times we were number 1.
Regards,
DFC
When ATC vector a flight off a standard route they should give the reason. It is the lack of communication between the ATCO and the Pilot that causes confusion.
I think that dances with sheep could try to remember that pilots do not badger them half as much as they should if we were to stick to the rules!
How often are flights put on vectors that "appear" to be taking us past the hold (clearance limit on the arrival) but we are not told if we will be turned towards the hold at a late stage or if we are being vectored towards base.
How often are we at a speed restriction that is above the holding speed but we have not been told that we are being vectored past the hold.....do we ask to slow up for the hold?
I am on a vector passing tartan but have not been given a clearance beyond the clearance limit and ATC are busy.......do I a) plough on or b) comply with my clearance limit as issued by ATC and turn towards the hold fix while trying to contact ATC?........not everything that the ATC operatives do is perfect either so perhaps both sides needf to look at what they do!
Having said that, I would not question an ATC instruction designed for sequencing or separation just because it looked like we were being placed number 2........what would we crow about all those times we were number 1.
Regards,
DFC
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Danceswithsheep-My response was to a query by takeupthehold asking for pilots procedures when given a heading.I thought I had a common sense approach to this particular situation, I would ask but not TELL you what speed! I thought if in doubt ask was the sensible thing to do, although I accept you could well be busy doing other things at a quiet time.
I will fly any speed that I am told , no arguments.I am not one of the airbus pilots you were referring to although I do fly a 737 for their offspring.
If you tell me there is holding I will ask if you have a preferred speed to reduce the holding time.I thought communication would lead to a suitable outcome.
Now to try to explain myself, I believe the point we are talking about is 10d before talla, 250kts and below FL160.To be fair nine times out of ten when I have asked I have been told no speed from me.Sometimes we are given a heading such that we never get within a 10d ring around talla,therefore I ask the question, unless the rt is really busy then I would have just done it. I dont think anything is laid down in our manuals so my solution was to put the abeam point in,I cant say what others in my company would do in the same circumstance.If you are saying that is what is required and that becomes the mandatory speed reducing point then fine- I have asked the question and you have answered it.
I wish I had time to visit an area centre, nothing very local, but I have managed to visit my local airfield radar room and control tower and have the utmost respect for what you guys do.
I think I had better get back to lurking around othere ares of pprune before I cause problems.
I will fly any speed that I am told , no arguments.I am not one of the airbus pilots you were referring to although I do fly a 737 for their offspring.
If you tell me there is holding I will ask if you have a preferred speed to reduce the holding time.I thought communication would lead to a suitable outcome.
Now to try to explain myself, I believe the point we are talking about is 10d before talla, 250kts and below FL160.To be fair nine times out of ten when I have asked I have been told no speed from me.Sometimes we are given a heading such that we never get within a 10d ring around talla,therefore I ask the question, unless the rt is really busy then I would have just done it. I dont think anything is laid down in our manuals so my solution was to put the abeam point in,I cant say what others in my company would do in the same circumstance.If you are saying that is what is required and that becomes the mandatory speed reducing point then fine- I have asked the question and you have answered it.
I wish I had time to visit an area centre, nothing very local, but I have managed to visit my local airfield radar room and control tower and have the utmost respect for what you guys do.
I think I had better get back to lurking around othere ares of pprune before I cause problems.
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Take up the Hold/Rolaaand
Unless I specify a speed to an a/c within first contact, they will (85% of the time), come back and ask. That in itself is a little annoying as my answer will invariably be "fly standard/normal speeds". Annoying because of course that is what they should do unless instructed otherwise - it's a transmission I should not have to make.
Once given a speed, they obey it - having Mode S helps!!
As for the difference between our TMAs - yes the LTMA might be more packed more often, but they are both, by their very existence, extremely complex bits of airspace. I would hope that pilots did not think that just because they expect it to be quieter, they can disobey your instructions.
We very often get A/C from LACC on speeds anyways - usually 300kts or greater, so when the pilot reports that, we will invariable give an instructiuon regarding speed.
DFC
As for explaining why you are put on a heading - if (and I purely speak from an LTMA perspective here as I do not have knowledge of other places) I was to explain every time why I took you off a SID or turned you left when running into the fix etc, I would not get anything done.
In TMAs although there are set routes, the very nature of the job (multiple crossing tracks with A/C needing to climb and descend) means that we will need headings to get A/C moving.
If I turn an A/C 20 degrees left as it runs into Biggin so that I can climb an A/C outbound from EGLL or EGKK (which wil also be on a heading) it is done with the best interests of all A/C involved - it means I can give the inbound A/C a descent as well. It means that the outbound A/C are not left at lower levels and the inbound A/C are not too high at the holding point to come straight off. I would say that 90% of A/C in the LTMA are on headings.
We are not going to tell them all the reason why!!
There are far too many tactical reasons that we use headings for us to have the time to explain it. In an ideal world, we would, but it is far from ideal!! The most a pilot would get from me is an assurance that there would be no delay due to my vectoring; and then only when I have the time.
You may be put on a heading to take you away from an A/C that is working a different controller using shared airspace. That A/C may not even be on frequency yet but we know its coming from our forward planning.
When you are flying airways and taken off a route, then yes, maybe you could expect a bit of an explanation, but please bear in mind the complexity of UK and other airspace.
Unless I specify a speed to an a/c within first contact, they will (85% of the time), come back and ask. That in itself is a little annoying as my answer will invariably be "fly standard/normal speeds". Annoying because of course that is what they should do unless instructed otherwise - it's a transmission I should not have to make.
Once given a speed, they obey it - having Mode S helps!!
As for the difference between our TMAs - yes the LTMA might be more packed more often, but they are both, by their very existence, extremely complex bits of airspace. I would hope that pilots did not think that just because they expect it to be quieter, they can disobey your instructions.
We very often get A/C from LACC on speeds anyways - usually 300kts or greater, so when the pilot reports that, we will invariable give an instructiuon regarding speed.
DFC
As for explaining why you are put on a heading - if (and I purely speak from an LTMA perspective here as I do not have knowledge of other places) I was to explain every time why I took you off a SID or turned you left when running into the fix etc, I would not get anything done.
In TMAs although there are set routes, the very nature of the job (multiple crossing tracks with A/C needing to climb and descend) means that we will need headings to get A/C moving.
If I turn an A/C 20 degrees left as it runs into Biggin so that I can climb an A/C outbound from EGLL or EGKK (which wil also be on a heading) it is done with the best interests of all A/C involved - it means I can give the inbound A/C a descent as well. It means that the outbound A/C are not left at lower levels and the inbound A/C are not too high at the holding point to come straight off. I would say that 90% of A/C in the LTMA are on headings.
We are not going to tell them all the reason why!!
There are far too many tactical reasons that we use headings for us to have the time to explain it. In an ideal world, we would, but it is far from ideal!! The most a pilot would get from me is an assurance that there would be no delay due to my vectoring; and then only when I have the time.
You may be put on a heading to take you away from an A/C that is working a different controller using shared airspace. That A/C may not even be on frequency yet but we know its coming from our forward planning.
When you are flying airways and taken off a route, then yes, maybe you could expect a bit of an explanation, but please bear in mind the complexity of UK and other airspace.
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Originally Posted by Take up the Hold
Since this I have been told by a pilot through a colleague that when an aircraft is given a heading it negates the STAR arrival and therefore the SLPs, somewhat akin to clearance to a new level negating the previous level restriction.
Any comments from TC controllers on what aircraft do in LTMA when on headings towards the hold.
Also any comments from our pilot friends on flight deck procedures and aircraft speed when given a heading to separate from other traffic, which is also approaching the same holding fix, but still roughly following the STAR.
TUTH
Any comments from TC controllers on what aircraft do in LTMA when on headings towards the hold.
Also any comments from our pilot friends on flight deck procedures and aircraft speed when given a heading to separate from other traffic, which is also approaching the same holding fix, but still roughly following the STAR.
TUTH
On another thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=212064 there has been discussion about whether a change in flight level given when flying a SID cancels other constraints (such as published step climb levels) within that SID. The definitive answer seemed to be tucked away within a CAA Safety Leaflet - RTF Discipline - Advice to Pilots, http://www.levelbust.com/downloads/s...eaflet_rtf.pdf, which says on page 4:
"When an amendment is made to a clearance, the new clearance must be given in full to the pilot by the air traffic controller, and this new clearance automatically cancels any previous clearance.
Thus, when an air traffic controller issues a clearance, which amends the route or vertical profile of an aircraft on a SID, e.g. 'climb FL 120', this automatically cancels the vertical profile of the SID. If the profile contains a restriction which provides vertical separation from conflicting traffic on another SID, air traffic controllers must reiterate the restriction, e.g. 'climb FL120, cross XYZ 5000 feet or above'. Similarly, when air traffic controllers issue instructions which amend the SID route, they are to confirm the level profile to be followed e.g. 'fly heading 095, climb FL 80' or 'route direct to ABC, stop climb at altitude 5000 feet'.
Similarly, if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g. ‘cross XYZ FL180 or below' then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction, unless it is reiterated with the revised clearance."
It can be argued that giving an aircraft a heading away from the horizontal profile of the STAR is the same in principle as the example above and therefore a radar heading effectively cancels the STAR, together with any vertical or speed constraints of the STAR, unless specifically reiterated with the revised (i.e. heading) clearance. It is also a very short logical step to say that, if the published STAR requires, for example, "250kts 15nm before XYZ" and you are then put on a heading such that you are no longer routing via XYZ, then the SLP clearly cannot still apply - unless of course it is restated with the revised (i.e. heading) clearance.
It does seem that the critical question is whether the SLP is just a constraint of the STAR or does it apply to all inbound flights to that destination. By way of an example, the chart for EGLL STARs via Bovingdon (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/p...s/32LL0702.PDF) would seem to show the SLPs drawn as a distance to (or radius from) the inbound holding facility (i.e. BNN in this case) - and this would seem to be confirmed by Note 2 on the chart, which says "Cross SLPs or 3mins before holding facility at 250kts IAS or less".
However, it is not definitive and we certainly could do with a clarification statement similar to the SID case above. Until this happens, surely the simplest solution is to reiterate the SLP requirement with any radar heading off the STAR for, as they say, "the avoidance of doubt", e.g.
"Speedbird 123, radar heading 160 degrees, be at 250kts or less by 17dme Bovingdon."
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DFC - for the reason of fairness, I hide behind a name on this but D Watch is the one I work for and This thread was my personnal views and not that of Scottish or D Watch. I wish to provide the best service I can and I feel that by being questioned by a pilot I am not able too. I try for short cuts, when asked. I try to provide adjacent sectors with traffic as best presented as I can. I try to sequence a/c taking into mind type, size and wake vortex(never company!).
If I was the only one having a problem, the thread would be lost but it seems to be touching a nerve, and not just for Scottish, or D Watch. We have just finished TRM and the point I brought up in that is that Pilots are part of our big team. That is my major point.
My first call, if I can is No speed on outbound and inbound legs. Right turns of PF on Easterlies if I can. A vector to short cut over Lanak, if I can.
If you would prefer we all keep you on route and just stick you into the hold we can. More work for us, more for you and bigger delays. Is this how it should be???????????????????????? Otherwise trust that we are doing the best we can. I try to tell pilots...further descent in 2 mins for controlled airspace, traffic 3 o'clock 5 miles further descent after etc.....but we are busy!!!!! How many times do we get.....Can I have climb.....followed by traffic information.....followed by yes we have them on TCAS...............................................More than it should happen!
If I was the only one having a problem, the thread would be lost but it seems to be touching a nerve, and not just for Scottish, or D Watch. We have just finished TRM and the point I brought up in that is that Pilots are part of our big team. That is my major point.
My first call, if I can is No speed on outbound and inbound legs. Right turns of PF on Easterlies if I can. A vector to short cut over Lanak, if I can.
If you would prefer we all keep you on route and just stick you into the hold we can. More work for us, more for you and bigger delays. Is this how it should be???????????????????????? Otherwise trust that we are doing the best we can. I try to tell pilots...further descent in 2 mins for controlled airspace, traffic 3 o'clock 5 miles further descent after etc.....but we are busy!!!!! How many times do we get.....Can I have climb.....followed by traffic information.....followed by yes we have them on TCAS...............................................More than it should happen!
Plumaveloz.
Sorry, I was just being facetious!
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contri...Peter/5143.htm
Sorry, I was just being facetious!
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contri...Peter/5143.htm
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CFD.....
You are welcome as are your comments on this and at a centre anytime. The reason for writing the thread is to help with awareness and to maybe help solve a problem.
We all work together and I thank a/c on the r/t whenever they help me out and I appreciate the same when I can provide short cuts etc.
We all want to get home early, make schedules, spend time with family, friends, Magners and generally have a stress free time.
I will be extending the hand of friendship to a BMA A320 Pilot on Thursday to come into Scottish and see the minefield that is the TMA. We will then wander into Flannigans and continue the conversation. By doing this I hope I can help in the interface between us all in some small way.
I have no intention of delaying anyone, changing orders or holding a grudge, this would mean being less proffesional than I can be and I enjoy my job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(but dont tell management)
If you fly and you get the chance, come into a centre, your company may even pay for it!!!!!!! We are normal people living in a darkened room just wanting to get home to our loved animals............
You are welcome as are your comments on this and at a centre anytime. The reason for writing the thread is to help with awareness and to maybe help solve a problem.
We all work together and I thank a/c on the r/t whenever they help me out and I appreciate the same when I can provide short cuts etc.
We all want to get home early, make schedules, spend time with family, friends, Magners and generally have a stress free time.
I will be extending the hand of friendship to a BMA A320 Pilot on Thursday to come into Scottish and see the minefield that is the TMA. We will then wander into Flannigans and continue the conversation. By doing this I hope I can help in the interface between us all in some small way.
I have no intention of delaying anyone, changing orders or holding a grudge, this would mean being less proffesional than I can be and I enjoy my job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(but dont tell management)
If you fly and you get the chance, come into a centre, your company may even pay for it!!!!!!! We are normal people living in a darkened room just wanting to get home to our loved animals............
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Thankyou, head back above the parapit!
Any chance of a definative answer to the question about speed if on a heading away from the star.Jumbo drivers solution seems sensible.
Just received an email from my company re changes to arrivals for EDI and one of these is strict adherance to inbound speed limits, so I could do with the definative answer.In the absence of any I guess I will go with the abeam point.
Dances with sheep, I certainly didn't mean to infer you would deliberately be delaying aircraft for no reason.
Regards.
Any chance of a definative answer to the question about speed if on a heading away from the star.Jumbo drivers solution seems sensible.
Just received an email from my company re changes to arrivals for EDI and one of these is strict adherance to inbound speed limits, so I could do with the definative answer.In the absence of any I guess I will go with the abeam point.
Dances with sheep, I certainly didn't mean to infer you would deliberately be delaying aircraft for no reason.
Regards.
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CFD
Not a definitive answer but I would comply with the speed limits even if on a heading, using the speeds abeam the point.
Chances are you may well be on a heading as you are running in parallel with another A/C anyways so keeping the speed up may well be detrimental to a no hold approach!!
Your thoughts are more than welcome on this forum - as a pilot you have a lot to input.
Not a definitive answer but I would comply with the speed limits even if on a heading, using the speeds abeam the point.
Chances are you may well be on a heading as you are running in parallel with another A/C anyways so keeping the speed up may well be detrimental to a no hold approach!!
Your thoughts are more than welcome on this forum - as a pilot you have a lot to input.
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DWS I bear wit u.... but just as Scott put it...... either SLOW DOWN or then TURN round....
Some Pilots, of course not all think they have the situation / sequence, lately, mainly because of their TCAS.....
We just have to MAKE them do their TALKIN with their Flyin....
to Conclude, it's either ATC WAY... or.... THE HIGHWAY!"!
DWS hope to see u down d desert, sooner or later
Some Pilots, of course not all think they have the situation / sequence, lately, mainly because of their TCAS.....
We just have to MAKE them do their TALKIN with their Flyin....
to Conclude, it's either ATC WAY... or.... THE HIGHWAY!"!
DWS hope to see u down d desert, sooner or later
Plumaveloz,
This happened to me at ALC a few weeks ago. We were asked by ATC to keep as high a speed as possible for separation from a Transavia behind so maintained 320 kts. The Transavia aircraft was asked to reduce to 250 kts . Visibility at ALC was 4-5000m and we were using ILS 10. Our rocket scientist behind then asks to route direct 10 mile fix. This was refused and as we turned onto the ILS at a suitable speed which had been passed to ATC, the Transavia who was past VILNA was asked what his speed was, to which he cheerily replied "320 kts". These guys are not only bullying ATC they are wilfully ignoring ATC clearances. My mistake - I should have MOR'd it, I won't make that mistake again!
This happened to me at ALC a few weeks ago. We were asked by ATC to keep as high a speed as possible for separation from a Transavia behind so maintained 320 kts. The Transavia aircraft was asked to reduce to 250 kts . Visibility at ALC was 4-5000m and we were using ILS 10. Our rocket scientist behind then asks to route direct 10 mile fix. This was refused and as we turned onto the ILS at a suitable speed which had been passed to ATC, the Transavia who was past VILNA was asked what his speed was, to which he cheerily replied "320 kts". These guys are not only bullying ATC they are wilfully ignoring ATC clearances. My mistake - I should have MOR'd it, I won't make that mistake again!
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About the SLP. Take it as abeam the 10d TLA or whatever it is. You are given headings to seperate and expedite(in that order) so plan on that point or 3 mins to the hold.
EGPH have made some changes to us on how we work together and hopefully they will make the situation easier. What we want to avoid is the hold for no reason and draconion speeds late on where as we can start the process at 80 miles and make it easier.
I know its tough to descend and reduce speed, therefore making level restructions tough. We are reasonable and think of how often you get the short cut, direct centre fix, or what have you.
The service you receive from my colleagues I believe is not perfect as we are mostly humans down here, but its not far off and when in a bind, they are people I am proud to have worked with.
Just help us to help you, and come on over for a drink.
PS How about this, every time you miss a speed limit point or get caught doing excess speed, its 3 points and a Ģ30 fine. should make Christmas fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EGPH have made some changes to us on how we work together and hopefully they will make the situation easier. What we want to avoid is the hold for no reason and draconion speeds late on where as we can start the process at 80 miles and make it easier.
I know its tough to descend and reduce speed, therefore making level restructions tough. We are reasonable and think of how often you get the short cut, direct centre fix, or what have you.
The service you receive from my colleagues I believe is not perfect as we are mostly humans down here, but its not far off and when in a bind, they are people I am proud to have worked with.
Just help us to help you, and come on over for a drink.
PS How about this, every time you miss a speed limit point or get caught doing excess speed, its 3 points and a Ģ30 fine. should make Christmas fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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ukatco_535,
Yes we know how hard you are working and we realise that it is an imperfect world. However, the situation that happens in the STMA does not happen in the LTMA except when the moon is blue.
Imaging you taking an aircraft inbound to BIG for LL 09 and putting it on a heading to pass between OCK and BIG from half way across the channel. That I am sure you would agree is one case where it would be a good idea to briefly tell the crew just what you have in mind.
More usual of course for us to be vectored a bit and then end up at BIG so no need to tell us anything.
Get the idea where the difference is?
Regards,
DFC
Yes we know how hard you are working and we realise that it is an imperfect world. However, the situation that happens in the STMA does not happen in the LTMA except when the moon is blue.
Imaging you taking an aircraft inbound to BIG for LL 09 and putting it on a heading to pass between OCK and BIG from half way across the channel. That I am sure you would agree is one case where it would be a good idea to briefly tell the crew just what you have in mind.
More usual of course for us to be vectored a bit and then end up at BIG so no need to tell us anything.
Get the idea where the difference is?
Regards,
DFC
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To try and make things easier for DFC, I propose that we should have a trial at ScACC for a month where we (traffic permitting) adhere to all SIDs, STARs, SLPs, Standing Agreement Levels, and everything else written down
The reply to any pilot who bitches or whinges for anything else should be 'Roger'
The system used by TC works well in busy airspace, so let's go for it here too
The reply to any pilot who bitches or whinges for anything else should be 'Roger'
The system used by TC works well in busy airspace, so let's go for it here too
One particular crew that regularly failed to fly the speed given were told
"Your landing time is based on speed and distance - You give me the speed or I'll give you the distance" They suddenly lost 50 knots groundspeed.
"Your landing time is based on speed and distance - You give me the speed or I'll give you the distance" They suddenly lost 50 knots groundspeed.