"Follow the Greens" - Is that difficult ?
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"Follow the Greens" - Is that difficult ?
Now I know after touchdown, there's a multitude of tasks to perform in the cockpit. Flaps up, speed-breaks dis-armed, turn the little wheel that steers the thing, look at the taxy map, watch out for many confusing airfield signs, thank pax for flying with you and hope to see them again, and also talk to those chaps on the radio yet again. But just how difficult is it to follow the little green lights? "Very" is the answer judging by the number of aircraft that leave a lit taxyway for the safety of the "Darkness"!!!
I just don't understand why a crew taxying along on a green lit taxyway think it's wise or neccessary to leave it and proceed onto one that has no lights on it all, and in some cases very distinctly has a red stop-bar on it about fifty metres ahead!! WHY?
It takes a lot of effort to switch off the other greens, to leave just a lit route, but sometimes it appears I'm wasting my time.
Aircraft white taxylights are good, but our green centreline lights are BETTER, or am I missing something blindingly obvious.
Looking forward to the slatings that this may attract!?
I just don't understand why a crew taxying along on a green lit taxyway think it's wise or neccessary to leave it and proceed onto one that has no lights on it all, and in some cases very distinctly has a red stop-bar on it about fifty metres ahead!! WHY?
It takes a lot of effort to switch off the other greens, to leave just a lit route, but sometimes it appears I'm wasting my time.
Aircraft white taxylights are good, but our green centreline lights are BETTER, or am I missing something blindingly obvious.
Looking forward to the slatings that this may attract!?
Last edited by Lord Toofouright; 6th Dec 2005 at 06:46.
I cant wait until you get a job with the Accident Investigation section, or better yet, Flight Safety.
With your helpful insight, there will never again be a wheels up landing, overspeed, overstress, CFIT, CRM or TCAS problem.
To err is human. Pilots are human.
And most incidents or accidents aren't always so simple. Sometimes there are many other complicating factors.
Remind me to produce a thread titled 'Why do my bags get lost on the airline flight?"
With your helpful insight, there will never again be a wheels up landing, overspeed, overstress, CFIT, CRM or TCAS problem.
To err is human. Pilots are human.
And most incidents or accidents aren't always so simple. Sometimes there are many other complicating factors.
Remind me to produce a thread titled 'Why do my bags get lost on the airline flight?"
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Although I think RG was a little harsh (you’re venting… I know), the reason really is in the response. Pilots are human and humans screw up. I’ve just passed the 23rd anniversary of my starting-out as a controller—I mention that only to establish the fact that I’ve seen a few things go wrong in my time. Here’s what I keep in mind when looking at the sort of situation you’ve described:
1. As a general rule, pilots aren’t stupid. My very best friends in the world are a couple of pilots I’ve known for more than 20 years. Granted, in the social skills department these chaps often leave something to be desired (my friends, that is… I can’t speak for all pilots…
), but in my experience, they and others of their ilk tend to be among the sharpest tools in the shed.
2. Pilots have an aversion to physically harming themselves while in control of an airframe (harming their livers during days-off is another matter).
3. Pilots have an aversion to harming the airframe they control.
4. Pilots have an aversion to getting their airframe stuck in the mud next to a taxiway or runway.
5. Pilots have an aversion to a loss of their license and/or employment and try very hard to avoid getting into trouble.
6. Pilots strive to make interaction with ATC as smooth as possible. It helps them manage their workload and keeps them out of trouble. Oh, and many of them are simply good people.
7. Experienced pilots understand the big picture in aviation far better than most controllers (myself especially—that’s one of the reasons I lurk on this site… to continue to learn).
Sure, there are exceptions to this characterization, but it’s not likely that you’d have all of the moronic jerk pilots showing up at your airport doing exactly the same idiotic thing. So it must be something else, right?
Perhaps it’s time you reach out to the people who ARE having trouble following the little green lights to find out what’s going on. Apparently it IS very difficult to follow them. If you continue to just be irritated by the situation it’s not going to get any better. You’ll just close your eyes and never find the real problem and its solution.
Oh for the days of fam flights… Many years ago, having worked at a major US west-coast airport for a while, I found myself seated on the flight deck of a DC10 returning to my home airport at night. When we were taxiing to the gate the captain asked me about something or other having to do with the field layout. I was at a loss… I had no idea where I was. From where I was sitting it was just a featureless sea of blue and white lights. I would not have been able to pick out a specific taxiway had my life depended on it. And I’m REALLY smart!
There’s obviously something else afoot here. Just my two bits worth.
Dave
PS It’s always good to vent in this business. Otherwise the stuff will just chew you up. However, beware the broad brush. What you need is the answer to your question, but you’re alienating the people that hold the answer right off the bat.
1. As a general rule, pilots aren’t stupid. My very best friends in the world are a couple of pilots I’ve known for more than 20 years. Granted, in the social skills department these chaps often leave something to be desired (my friends, that is… I can’t speak for all pilots…
), but in my experience, they and others of their ilk tend to be among the sharpest tools in the shed.2. Pilots have an aversion to physically harming themselves while in control of an airframe (harming their livers during days-off is another matter).
3. Pilots have an aversion to harming the airframe they control.
4. Pilots have an aversion to getting their airframe stuck in the mud next to a taxiway or runway.
5. Pilots have an aversion to a loss of their license and/or employment and try very hard to avoid getting into trouble.
6. Pilots strive to make interaction with ATC as smooth as possible. It helps them manage their workload and keeps them out of trouble. Oh, and many of them are simply good people.
7. Experienced pilots understand the big picture in aviation far better than most controllers (myself especially—that’s one of the reasons I lurk on this site… to continue to learn).
Sure, there are exceptions to this characterization, but it’s not likely that you’d have all of the moronic jerk pilots showing up at your airport doing exactly the same idiotic thing. So it must be something else, right?
Perhaps it’s time you reach out to the people who ARE having trouble following the little green lights to find out what’s going on. Apparently it IS very difficult to follow them. If you continue to just be irritated by the situation it’s not going to get any better. You’ll just close your eyes and never find the real problem and its solution.
Oh for the days of fam flights… Many years ago, having worked at a major US west-coast airport for a while, I found myself seated on the flight deck of a DC10 returning to my home airport at night. When we were taxiing to the gate the captain asked me about something or other having to do with the field layout. I was at a loss… I had no idea where I was. From where I was sitting it was just a featureless sea of blue and white lights. I would not have been able to pick out a specific taxiway had my life depended on it. And I’m REALLY smart!
There’s obviously something else afoot here. Just my two bits worth.
Dave
PS It’s always good to vent in this business. Otherwise the stuff will just chew you up. However, beware the broad brush. What you need is the answer to your question, but you’re alienating the people that hold the answer right off the bat.
I admit - I bit a tad too hard. Sorry!
Lack of visual cues at night, especially peripheral, can be a player. Sometimes the crew may be distracted, heads down, feet on brakes (but not hard enough), and the aircraft may gr-ad-ual-ly move off, without any noticeable acceleration.
Ironically, ATC switching off all the other lights can contribute to this example.
Physiological effects, fatigue, presumption, CRM breakdowns, are but a few of the reasons for such a simple mistake.
Lack of visual cues at night, especially peripheral, can be a player. Sometimes the crew may be distracted, heads down, feet on brakes (but not hard enough), and the aircraft may gr-ad-ual-ly move off, without any noticeable acceleration.
Ironically, ATC switching off all the other lights can contribute to this example.
Physiological effects, fatigue, presumption, CRM breakdowns, are but a few of the reasons for such a simple mistake.
Quite possible to do, you only need to ask, ATCOs are on the list of approved flight deck visitors. It's quite possible that companies have got out of the habit of doing them but I am sure that there is no rule preventing it from happening.
Have been flying to Manchester for years and never even noticed that they have switched reds and greens on the taxi ways so I guess you are wasting your time 24R.
Have been flying to Manchester for years and never even noticed that they have switched reds and greens on the taxi ways so I guess you are wasting your time 24R.
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Perhaps its because people say 'straight ahead on the greens' and then you look up and there's a whole block which doesn't have any greens in it?
Perhaps its because you can't see the greens on a bend and your lighting operators aren't quite as quick as you'd like to think?
Perhaps it's because red stop bars often apear at random due to other traffic interacting with the lighting plan?
I 'follow the greens' regularly at LHR and about 50% of the time I either have to slow the aircraft down to wait for the lights to catch up or ask for clarification.
Perhaps its because you can't see the greens on a bend and your lighting operators aren't quite as quick as you'd like to think?
Perhaps it's because red stop bars often apear at random due to other traffic interacting with the lighting plan?
I 'follow the greens' regularly at LHR and about 50% of the time I either have to slow the aircraft down to wait for the lights to catch up or ask for clarification.
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...your lighting operators aren't quite as quick as you'd like to think?
No such luxuries up there. Its up to the ground controller to manipulate their own lights if they have the time. I always tried to do it just to keep familiar with the panel for when it was needed in low vis, but there are times when it will just be all greens.
I had AFR once taxy from A in front of the engine test bay, make a hard right through the light aircraft park in the dark, then make a hard left on C. The mind boggles.
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Bring back fam flights??
I can't comment for other UK service providers, but if you're a NATS controller then fam flights are no problem whatsoever.
As someone has already said ATCOs have been on the approved list for a long time, we were taken off after Sept 11th but were put back on about a year later.
At Heathrow Tower we have access to BA, BMI, Aer Lingus, Virgin and Alitalia flightdecks. In truth very few ATCOs actually bother, though this could have more to do with the fact management won't authorise days in lieu.
One popular scheme at LHR is the access we have to the BMI simulators at Stockley where the ATCO can go in for day 2 of the prof' checks and do the RT whilst at the same time seeing first hand the workload of the crew in a very busy situation. We've had 15 ATCOs give up a day of their free time in the last 2 months alone.
If your unit hasn't got a fam flight scheme, then do something about it and organise one.
On behalf of the LHR boys and girls, our thanks to any of the crews from the above mentioned airlines for their hospitality on the flight deck, and in particular a big thank you to the BMI crews that have put up with us in the sim. Cheers
As someone has already said ATCOs have been on the approved list for a long time, we were taken off after Sept 11th but were put back on about a year later.
At Heathrow Tower we have access to BA, BMI, Aer Lingus, Virgin and Alitalia flightdecks. In truth very few ATCOs actually bother, though this could have more to do with the fact management won't authorise days in lieu.
One popular scheme at LHR is the access we have to the BMI simulators at Stockley where the ATCO can go in for day 2 of the prof' checks and do the RT whilst at the same time seeing first hand the workload of the crew in a very busy situation. We've had 15 ATCOs give up a day of their free time in the last 2 months alone.
If your unit hasn't got a fam flight scheme, then do something about it and organise one.
On behalf of the LHR boys and girls, our thanks to any of the crews from the above mentioned airlines for their hospitality on the flight deck, and in particular a big thank you to the BMI crews that have put up with us in the sim. Cheers
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How about getting the people who design the routing of the yellow line/green lights to come aboard and see how difficult it is sometimes at MAN to actually follow the line while leaving some rubber on the tyres !
Over the last few years, some routes have changed, particularly outbound towards 24R, the turns after the East Link are not easy to accomplish or comfortable for the pax.
I guess this is sort of on thread, I agree with the original post that some folks go really off piste but thought I would have a moan at the airport authority anyway
Re Fam Flights for ATC, we do them at MAN, get in touch with the Tourists Base Manager and he will organise.
Over the last few years, some routes have changed, particularly outbound towards 24R, the turns after the East Link are not easy to accomplish or comfortable for the pax.
I guess this is sort of on thread, I agree with the original post that some folks go really off piste but thought I would have a moan at the airport authority anyway
Re Fam Flights for ATC, we do them at MAN, get in touch with the Tourists Base Manager and he will organise.
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I agree that it would be excellent for ATC staff to get more fam flights, but having read some comments from pilots in this thread I would say it is absolutely essential that some of you guys spend an hour or two with the lighting operator at a busy airfield. If you think pilots are "busy" you really ought to spend 5 minutes with the lighting operators at Heathrow Tower. You would then, perhaps, understand what being "busy" really means....
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Yup, those used to the UK should have no problem with 'follow the greens'. If they aren't in the right direction then I generally ask first, then deviate...
However, most of us run all over Europe, where taxiway centreline lighting is not as consistant as it is here in the UK. An simple example being DUB where (if my memory from a week ago serves me right) half way along the bravos the lighting changes from centreline to edge, with a centreline light going down another taxiway (H?). Anyhow, given this mental model that not everywhere has it, some places we go have decidedly little, then maybe you can understand an action or two... Not forgiving them of course!
However, most of us run all over Europe, where taxiway centreline lighting is not as consistant as it is here in the UK. An simple example being DUB where (if my memory from a week ago serves me right) half way along the bravos the lighting changes from centreline to edge, with a centreline light going down another taxiway (H?). Anyhow, given this mental model that not everywhere has it, some places we go have decidedly little, then maybe you can understand an action or two... Not forgiving them of course!
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T'other night an ATR [freighter] vacated r/w 06L at "Foxtrot" [Unlit crossing point] 
then was instructed to take second left, but took first . was told to hold and follow the leader........NO other a/c on freq....
watp,iktch
then was instructed to take second left, but took first . was told to hold and follow the leader........NO other a/c on freq....watp,iktch
Green centreline lights? Lucky buggers. Now that I'm working in the US I've discovered they have an obsession with blue sideline lights.
At night a carpet of sideline lights is much more difficult to perceive movement area between the lights vs non-movement area (also) between the lights.
Jeez I wish they'd use centreline lights here...
At night a carpet of sideline lights is much more difficult to perceive movement area between the lights vs non-movement area (also) between the lights.
Jeez I wish they'd use centreline lights here...
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SOURCE:Flight International. 29/11/05
Surge in incident data.
Eurocontrol claims to have gained a valuable insight into the extent of runway incursions at European airports after data showed its runway safety programme has generated a surge in incident reporting.
The organisation says it is receiving about 350 incursion reports a year, compared with just 50 or so before its awareness efforts. It says 91% of 120 key European Civil Aviation Conference airports have set up runway safety teams – comprising representatives of the airport operator, airlines and air traffic control provider – which regularly meet to address safety issues.
“The seriousness of incursions is beginning to drop off,” says Eurocontrol air traffic management programmes director George Paulson. “We believe this is in part due to the runway safety teams.”
Eurocontrol had just started work on improving runway safety when the initiative was given added urgency by the fatal runway collision at Milan Linate airport in October 2001.
Paulson says that the sharp rise in incident reports has proved valuable.
Surge in incident data.
Eurocontrol claims to have gained a valuable insight into the extent of runway incursions at European airports after data showed its runway safety programme has generated a surge in incident reporting.
The organisation says it is receiving about 350 incursion reports a year, compared with just 50 or so before its awareness efforts. It says 91% of 120 key European Civil Aviation Conference airports have set up runway safety teams – comprising representatives of the airport operator, airlines and air traffic control provider – which regularly meet to address safety issues.
“The seriousness of incursions is beginning to drop off,” says Eurocontrol air traffic management programmes director George Paulson. “We believe this is in part due to the runway safety teams.”
Eurocontrol had just started work on improving runway safety when the initiative was given added urgency by the fatal runway collision at Milan Linate airport in October 2001.
Paulson says that the sharp rise in incident reports has proved valuable.
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Thanks guys for the input you've given so far, and now finally it's beginning to elicit comments that I find pertinent. May main reason for asking the question in the first place, was to try and get some reasoning behind why a crew take un-lit routes to and from aprons, when there is a brightly lit one begging to be used and is also the one they were asked to use in the first place. The next step is to ask why Red-stop bars are sometimes ignored which in turn can lead to runway incursions, (THE hot-topic of the moment within ATC and quite rightly to), and taxiway conflictions.
MOST crew do question a red stop bar that is illuminated BEFORE they cross it, but there are some that just drive straight through one without any question, hesitation or deviation! Yes, they may have been told just a few seconds before to "Line-up and wait " on a runway and the controller has failed to drop the red, but why cross-it without querying it?
I'm not getting at anyone in particular here, I'm just curious of the thought processes involved in ignoring a RED? ( Tantamount to running a red at a set of Traffic lights on the highways IMHO).
I do pity aircrew that have to fathom differing standards of lighting in all regions of the globe and that they are not standard, BUT when you do have one of the better systems to use, why is it sometimes ignored.
Whether it's a Green, Red or Rainbow coloured lights, they are there for a purpose, so why not use them as they are intended ?
Wishing everyone the very best of the Seasons Greetings in the run-up to next Summer !!
Lord 24R.
MOST crew do question a red stop bar that is illuminated BEFORE they cross it, but there are some that just drive straight through one without any question, hesitation or deviation! Yes, they may have been told just a few seconds before to "Line-up and wait " on a runway and the controller has failed to drop the red, but why cross-it without querying it?
I'm not getting at anyone in particular here, I'm just curious of the thought processes involved in ignoring a RED? ( Tantamount to running a red at a set of Traffic lights on the highways IMHO).
I do pity aircrew that have to fathom differing standards of lighting in all regions of the globe and that they are not standard, BUT when you do have one of the better systems to use, why is it sometimes ignored.
Whether it's a Green, Red or Rainbow coloured lights, they are there for a purpose, so why not use them as they are intended ?
Wishing everyone the very best of the Seasons Greetings in the run-up to next Summer !!
Lord 24R.
