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Capt Airclues,
In answer to your question, there are no set procedures, it depends on the individual situation each time. In this case I think a couple of aircraft were broken off final approach, any others further out would have been sent towards the hold.
For departures, they would be held on the ground until the Tower & Radar controllers between them were happy that the aircraft was tracking away from the SID, and then judicious use of traffic information! Also depends on the weather of course, but hopefully on this occasion it was VFR.
In answer to your question, there are no set procedures, it depends on the individual situation each time. In this case I think a couple of aircraft were broken off final approach, any others further out would have been sent towards the hold.
For departures, they would be held on the ground until the Tower & Radar controllers between them were happy that the aircraft was tracking away from the SID, and then judicious use of traffic information! Also depends on the weather of course, but hopefully on this occasion it was VFR.
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niknak,
Are you an OJTI or an instructor?
If an ATC student you trained caused an airprox the first time they operate solo is it;
a) The OJTI's fault
b) The eamminer's fault? or
c) The ATCOs fault?
Provided the instructor ensured that the student has reached the required standard and had properly briefed/prepared for the solo flight then the instructor has little or no influence on what the student does once the flight has departed.
Using your system, the insurance for OJTIs, instructors, examminers, the CAA would be enormous.
Regards,
DFC
Are you an OJTI or an instructor?
If an ATC student you trained caused an airprox the first time they operate solo is it;
a) The OJTI's fault
b) The eamminer's fault? or
c) The ATCOs fault?
Provided the instructor ensured that the student has reached the required standard and had properly briefed/prepared for the solo flight then the instructor has little or no influence on what the student does once the flight has departed.
Using your system, the insurance for OJTIs, instructors, examminers, the CAA would be enormous.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC... I understand what you mean but whether I accept that PPLs are trained to anywhere approaching the standard of professional Air Traffic Controllers is another matter.
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HD,
I am not comparing the standard required. I am comparing the systems that follow a sylabus of training and sets standards for certain stages of training/qualification.
Provided that a person demonstrates the appropriate standard at whatever stage in whatever system, it is not the responsibility of the instructor who provided training during that stage if the student, PPL, ATCO or whatever ignores or forgets or accidently does not follow the training or instructions given.
To follow Niknak's line here, perhaps we should haul the CAA over the coals because this person was probably given a pass in the Air Law Exam but failed to follow the part of the Air Law sylabus pertaining to operations within Class D airspace.
Regards,
DFC
I am not comparing the standard required. I am comparing the systems that follow a sylabus of training and sets standards for certain stages of training/qualification.
Provided that a person demonstrates the appropriate standard at whatever stage in whatever system, it is not the responsibility of the instructor who provided training during that stage if the student, PPL, ATCO or whatever ignores or forgets or accidently does not follow the training or instructions given.
To follow Niknak's line here, perhaps we should haul the CAA over the coals because this person was probably given a pass in the Air Law Exam but failed to follow the part of the Air Law sylabus pertaining to operations within Class D airspace.
Regards,
DFC
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It'll always happen...
A hawk (I believe flown by OC Valley) twice, as I heard it, tried to land at Bristol instead of Filton
A commercial PA34 landed at Heyford instead of Oxford
and a personal favourite-
a BOAC Comet 4, scheduled flight full of pax landed on a road in a National Park instead of at Nairobi.
Didn't David Gunston used to talk about an Aer Lingus 747 landing at Birmingham instead of Manch?
A hawk (I believe flown by OC Valley) twice, as I heard it, tried to land at Bristol instead of Filton
A commercial PA34 landed at Heyford instead of Oxford
and a personal favourite-
a BOAC Comet 4, scheduled flight full of pax landed on a road in a National Park instead of at Nairobi.
Didn't David Gunston used to talk about an Aer Lingus 747 landing at Birmingham instead of Manch?
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"whether I accept that PPLs are trained to anywhere approaching the standard of professional Air Traffic Controllers is another matter."
Looking at some newly qualified controllers I beg to differ.
Looking at some newly qualified controllers I beg to differ.
aceatco, retired
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a BOAC Comet 4, scheduled flight full of pax landed on a road in a National Park instead of at Nairobi.
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booke23 said "Looking at some newly qualified controllers I beg to differ."
Where did you look at them?? By "newly qualified" do you mean just out of the College, or fully validated at a busy unit?
Where did you look at them?? By "newly qualified" do you mean just out of the College, or fully validated at a busy unit?
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Because of the increasing number of runway infringements in the past few years (38 alone at a major twin runway airport somewhere west of London) there is a big push going on from the CAA and NATS to make people more aware of them....
Hence...
If you land without clearance, lost or not, you have committed a runway infringement and it will be very closely looked at. Obviously, if you have a technical or radio problem then the circumstances will be examined. If you have landed at an airport without clearance because you are lost then you can expect some quite heavy penalties and a thorough investigation into your skills and competency as a private pilot
Hence...
If you land without clearance, lost or not, you have committed a runway infringement and it will be very closely looked at. Obviously, if you have a technical or radio problem then the circumstances will be examined. If you have landed at an airport without clearance because you are lost then you can expect some quite heavy penalties and a thorough investigation into your skills and competency as a private pilot
More than just an ATCO
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Pan Am, I think, put a 707 on the ground at Northolt instead of Heathrow. That was the reason for painting LL and WU on the gasometers.
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I was once sitting at the holding point for R16 at a US airport, which was uncontrolled at that time of night, waiting for landing traffic. A Saab 340 from a big US commuter airline was diligently announcing he was downwind for 16, turning base for 16, finals for 16. With no traffic in sight on the 16 approach I was rather surprised to see the said Saab land on R34 and taxy to the ramp without a further word said!
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Lon... It was actually "NO" on the Northolt gasholder. Doubly appropriate don't you think!! Jeezzz... if i had a quid for every pilot who assured me he had 23 in sight and went for 26 at Northolt I'd be very rich!!!
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These things happen to everyone...
In the 1950s a B-36 Peacemaker landed short of Boscombe Down AFB, because the crew confused the British runway markings with the US ones. Fortunately the field on which they ended up was frozen. Only one propeller was damaged after impacting a haystack.
After landing the pilot transmitted to the tower that their runway was kind of bumpy
In the 1950s a B-36 Peacemaker landed short of Boscombe Down AFB, because the crew confused the British runway markings with the US ones. Fortunately the field on which they ended up was frozen. Only one propeller was damaged after impacting a haystack.
After landing the pilot transmitted to the tower that their runway was kind of bumpy
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..... and at the previous Farnborough the B-1B that did exactly the same thing .... just after a controller had been claiming that these aircraft could deliver a missile through an office window. Gave the chap at EGLK a shock!
And then many moons ago I believe there was an A10 that did a wonderful display at Cambridge, thinking he was at Duxford.
And then many moons ago I believe there was an A10 that did a wonderful display at Cambridge, thinking he was at Duxford.
It's not just the student pilots who are at fault. I remember quite clearly some years ago telling an aircraft under FIS that he was 2 miles from Lyneham Zone and heading straight towards it. The instructor came straight back and said,
"Radar don't tell the student where he is..."
Unbelievable..I sat open mouthed for some seconds.
"Radar don't tell the student where he is..."
Unbelievable..I sat open mouthed for some seconds.