Sending REA-messages to CFMU
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Not quite. A FPL can be activated 15mins prior or after EOBT. If a pilot requests to depart prior to this it will have to be re filed for the earlier time. If later then a Delay message is sent.
If a CTOT is given, and the pilot reports ready before the slot tollerance (5 ins prior, 10 mins after CTOT), then a ready message may be sent.
If it looks like you will be out of slot tollerance, a call to flow, can 'sometimes' buy an extra couple of mins.
If a CTOT is given, and the pilot reports ready before the slot tollerance (5 ins prior, 10 mins after CTOT), then a ready message may be sent.
If it looks like you will be out of slot tollerance, a call to flow, can 'sometimes' buy an extra couple of mins.
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Interesting thread. Prospero, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have some Q's:
1. If a/c has CTOT, does it automatically improve towards the EOBT + taxi time if REA is not filed?
2. AO's are supposed to send DLA if Fpl is > than EOBT + 15 (ie out of date); are they able to contact Brussells directly to ask for favourable treatment and if so is their situation given any more priority over other operators that haven't contacted Brussells?
3. Do ALL AIRPORTS adhere strictly to CTOT -5/+10. C'mon, be honest
?
4. LACC FMP. Do you mind Airports ringing up and asking for an extra 5 or does it really cause you a lot more hassle when you may already be busy??
Sorry for 'piggybacking' on the this thread - just seemed a good place to ask the question(s).
1. If a/c has CTOT, does it automatically improve towards the EOBT + taxi time if REA is not filed?
2. AO's are supposed to send DLA if Fpl is > than EOBT + 15 (ie out of date); are they able to contact Brussells directly to ask for favourable treatment and if so is their situation given any more priority over other operators that haven't contacted Brussells?
3. Do ALL AIRPORTS adhere strictly to CTOT -5/+10. C'mon, be honest
?4. LACC FMP. Do you mind Airports ringing up and asking for an extra 5 or does it really cause you a lot more hassle when you may already be busy??
Sorry for 'piggybacking' on the this thread - just seemed a good place to ask the question(s).
Time merchant
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Prospero must be having a lie down so I'll chip in while he is away.
Not true. If your EOBT is 1115 and you are ready to go at 1045 the a REA message is definitely not a waste of time. Don't forget it can be sent up to 30 minutes before EOBT.
nodelay, to answer some of your questions.
1. Yes, unless you have put your flight in SIP wanted status all flights are assumed ready for improvement. They will only receive improvements of minimum 15 minutes though and subject to parameters such as taxi time.
REA status means you will receive even 5 minute improvements right down to an assumed 5 minute taxi time or whatever the TWR have specified in the REA message.
2. You are supposed to send a delay message, if you then receive a big delay you can call us for assistance. However, it is now normal practice for AOs to call the help desk to ask for an extension. If a slot is available it will normally be given to you. After a hundred such calls some may cry ENOUGH! and ask you to send a delay - we do have other things to do and the help desk was established to help people who have a genuine problem that requires specialist advice. To answer your question, the response you will receive is at the individuals discretion.
3. No
I hope this helps.
flowman
Apart from the technicalities of the flow system, am I the only one who thinks that, faced with:
-EOBT 1115
-CTOT 1124
-REGUL <xxxxxxx>
-TAXITIME 0005
filing a ready message is a waste of time and ties up the system unnecessarily? What with taxi times and slot tolerances, that's an on-time departure!
-EOBT 1115
-CTOT 1124
-REGUL <xxxxxxx>
-TAXITIME 0005
filing a ready message is a waste of time and ties up the system unnecessarily? What with taxi times and slot tolerances, that's an on-time departure!
nodelay, to answer some of your questions.
1. Yes, unless you have put your flight in SIP wanted status all flights are assumed ready for improvement. They will only receive improvements of minimum 15 minutes though and subject to parameters such as taxi time.
REA status means you will receive even 5 minute improvements right down to an assumed 5 minute taxi time or whatever the TWR have specified in the REA message.
2. You are supposed to send a delay message, if you then receive a big delay you can call us for assistance. However, it is now normal practice for AOs to call the help desk to ask for an extension. If a slot is available it will normally be given to you. After a hundred such calls some may cry ENOUGH! and ask you to send a delay - we do have other things to do and the help desk was established to help people who have a genuine problem that requires specialist advice. To answer your question, the response you will receive is at the individuals discretion.
3. No
I hope this helps.
flowman
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, the pilot is supposed to be ready as close as possible to CTOT )Same thing if you will be ready for T/O at CTOT+5. Please, pretty please, give us a call BEFORE sending the DLA message.
... that is, if you don't want a 3h delay
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Also remember that the slot is for an aeroplane at the holding point NOT on stand. "Ground xxx123 for start" "xxx123, you've missed your slot of 1025" "But it's only 1015...." "Correct, but you are no3 to start and there are 10 at the holding point" It happens every day
watp,iktch
It happens every day watp,iktch
Last edited by chiglet; 15th Sep 2006 at 19:17. Reason: booooze
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Chiglet
Your point is one of my biggest bug bears when Airline and Ground Handling agents are aware of CTOT's and don't pass them onto crews. Also when crews that have been made aware of their CTOT by ATC, still think they can make their slot by requesting push and start at or after the CTOT time.
Crews/Ops/Dispatchers:
The -5/+10 is a tactical tool for use by ATCO's when aircraft are caught in a queue at the hold or are ahead of aircraft with similar CTOT's. Please do NOT get ar$ey on the RT when we tell you we cannot get you started and airborne in time. ATCOs and ATSAs have other things to be doing than begging to FMP and using our ace cards when we really need them for guys AT THE HOLD!
My advice to crews is always to check in with Ground (or Delivery) no later than 10 mins before your CTOT or EOBT if it looks like you are running late. The controller can then tell you your latest CTOT (if any) and if there is a chance of you getting away or not in the current traffic situation. If the answer is not favourable, at least you can then have comapny send a DLA or re-negotiate a new CTOT, and as soon as you are fully ready a REA can be sent. I find that this very often triggers a slot improvement fairly quickly rather than getting into the relams of Missed Slots being dealt with after CTOT.
Finally with regard to EOBT tolerance for HCS, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do try and get company to update your EOBT if it is outside -/+15 mins. This is primarily for FMP forecast purposes and helps to avoid ATC Sector overloads. Although ATC are able to send a DLA, it is not our responsibility to do so (we are not really supposed to amend flight plans not originated by us), and is normally done out of the goodness of our hearts if:
a) We are not busy AND you have tried and failed to get any joy out of company.
b) The new EOBT is only a few minutes out (NOT 30 mins or more!!)
c) We don't get our heads bitten off if a CTOT is then issued based on the new EOBT.
Again, my top tip is to get onto company as soon as you know you are going to be early or late on your EOBT and keep the plan fresh. Nothing worse than having to do the same thing with the doors closed, tug attached and ready to go. Remeber to go early on your EOBT -15, the plan has to be refiled in toto.
Some companies are better at this than others, but the only way they will all get the message is if crews keep the pressure on them from first contact on "Company" inbound, to perhaps a quick check as boarding is completing before the "Before Start" checks!
Your point is one of my biggest bug bears when Airline and Ground Handling agents are aware of CTOT's and don't pass them onto crews. Also when crews that have been made aware of their CTOT by ATC, still think they can make their slot by requesting push and start at or after the CTOT time.
Crews/Ops/Dispatchers:
The -5/+10 is a tactical tool for use by ATCO's when aircraft are caught in a queue at the hold or are ahead of aircraft with similar CTOT's. Please do NOT get ar$ey on the RT when we tell you we cannot get you started and airborne in time. ATCOs and ATSAs have other things to be doing than begging to FMP and using our ace cards when we really need them for guys AT THE HOLD!
My advice to crews is always to check in with Ground (or Delivery) no later than 10 mins before your CTOT or EOBT if it looks like you are running late. The controller can then tell you your latest CTOT (if any) and if there is a chance of you getting away or not in the current traffic situation. If the answer is not favourable, at least you can then have comapny send a DLA or re-negotiate a new CTOT, and as soon as you are fully ready a REA can be sent. I find that this very often triggers a slot improvement fairly quickly rather than getting into the relams of Missed Slots being dealt with after CTOT.
Finally with regard to EOBT tolerance for HCS, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do try and get company to update your EOBT if it is outside -/+15 mins. This is primarily for FMP forecast purposes and helps to avoid ATC Sector overloads. Although ATC are able to send a DLA, it is not our responsibility to do so (we are not really supposed to amend flight plans not originated by us), and is normally done out of the goodness of our hearts if:
a) We are not busy AND you have tried and failed to get any joy out of company.
b) The new EOBT is only a few minutes out (NOT 30 mins or more!!)
c) We don't get our heads bitten off if a CTOT is then issued based on the new EOBT.
Again, my top tip is to get onto company as soon as you know you are going to be early or late on your EOBT and keep the plan fresh. Nothing worse than having to do the same thing with the doors closed, tug attached and ready to go. Remeber to go early on your EOBT -15, the plan has to be refiled in toto.
Some companies are better at this than others, but the only way they will all get the message is if crews keep the pressure on them from first contact on "Company" inbound, to perhaps a quick check as boarding is completing before the "Before Start" checks!
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Ops,
Had a phone call 'tother day "Has ABC123 got airbourne yet? 'cos hi pushed 20 mins ago"
Me "No"
Co "Why not"
Me "'Cos we are an International Airport"
Co "What do you mean?"
Me "He's no 12 in the queue"
watp,iktch
Had a phone call 'tother day "Has ABC123 got airbourne yet? 'cos hi pushed 20 mins ago"
Me "No"
Co "Why not"
Me "'Cos we are an International Airport"
Co "What do you mean?"
Me "He's no 12 in the queue"
watp,iktch
