? for LGW dep controller
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 248
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From: united kingdom
Working in the part of the TMA where this happens, I would say that although you are cleared eventually to 6,000ft you have to make mandatory level offs at specific altitudes.
If you call me and say that you are climbing to 6,000ft i and almost every person that I work with will assume that you have missed the stop off (and that you are using Jeppeson plates
). I would then tell you to stop climb at the initial altitude and if you were very close to another aircraft, I would probably write a safety observation about it!
The number of level busts in the LTMA caused by this very type of SID and the fact that pilots miss the initial cleared are too numerous to mention.
If you call me and say that you are climbing to 6,000ft i and almost every person that I work with will assume that you have missed the stop off (and that you are using Jeppeson plates
). I would then tell you to stop climb at the initial altitude and if you were very close to another aircraft, I would probably write a safety observation about it!The number of level busts in the LTMA caused by this very type of SID and the fact that pilots miss the initial cleared are too numerous to mention.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 448
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From: Location Location
I'm retired now but I would hope that all you controllers are telling this to chirp.
As for the bus pilots, I think this is an accident waiting to happen if you really do set 6000 in the MCP when the initial cutoff is 4000.
As for the bus pilots, I think this is an accident waiting to happen if you really do set 6000 in the MCP when the initial cutoff is 4000.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 829
Likes: 141
From: You live where
Oh dear, what is happening here?
Normalised deviation!
How much is the train from Europe to London?
I would probably write a safety observation about it!
The number of level busts in the LTMA caused by this very type of SID and the fact that pilots miss the initial cleared are too numerous to mention.
How much is the train from Europe to London?
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 132
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From: Costa del Hampshire
Missy
It doesn't happen all of the time, and not normally on the scheduled stuff, but it does happen quite often (maybe once a week) with the biz jets etc that fly out of Luton.
The SID restrictions in this area are very specific because in the Brookmans Park area you have LHR outbounds at 6A, Luton outs at 4-5A, City outs at 3A and closeby Stansted outs climbing to 5A. Once you get your head around it it makes sense, but can be quite unnerving if the pilot reports his cleared alt as 6A, especially when the Virgin A340 is crawling through 4.5A....!
It doesn't happen all of the time, and not normally on the scheduled stuff, but it does happen quite often (maybe once a week) with the biz jets etc that fly out of Luton.
The SID restrictions in this area are very specific because in the Brookmans Park area you have LHR outbounds at 6A, Luton outs at 4-5A, City outs at 3A and closeby Stansted outs climbing to 5A. Once you get your head around it it makes sense, but can be quite unnerving if the pilot reports his cleared alt as 6A, especially when the Virgin A340 is crawling through 4.5A....!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 21
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From: Belgium
SID Readback
This is very interesting, and definitely a safety hazard.
When I am issued a SID by clearance delivery, I am given 6000. I readback 6000 to clearance delivery. When I get airborne, I readback 6000 to departures as it is my cleared altitude, even though the SID has stop off points. These form part of my clearance which I read back to clearance delivery, and I am required to comply.
Now you say I must read back the stop off points as well? Do I also advise when I have left them after maintaining for a short time. Where does it stop?
I think the problem here is with the SID design. SIDs are supposedly designed to reduce workload/RTF etc. Seems to me that the SID in question should be issued with 4000 or 5000 or whatever is required for separation assurance, not develop a local procedure regarding read back requirements.
Fly safe now.
When I am issued a SID by clearance delivery, I am given 6000. I readback 6000 to clearance delivery. When I get airborne, I readback 6000 to departures as it is my cleared altitude, even though the SID has stop off points. These form part of my clearance which I read back to clearance delivery, and I am required to comply.
Now you say I must read back the stop off points as well? Do I also advise when I have left them after maintaining for a short time. Where does it stop?
I think the problem here is with the SID design. SIDs are supposedly designed to reduce workload/RTF etc. Seems to me that the SID in question should be issued with 4000 or 5000 or whatever is required for separation assurance, not develop a local procedure regarding read back requirements.
Fly safe now.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 202
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From: South West England
I really don't see what all the fuss is about. If you contact departure radar flying the SID and are climbing to say 4000ft in accordance with the SID then you are climbing to 4000ft not 6000ft. Why not say "climbing initially to 4000ft requesting higher"
A I
A I
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,064
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From: Hants, UK
How much is the train from Europe to London?
If you mean, how much is the train from CONTINENTAL Europe to London, then the figure already given may well be right...
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 34
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From: LTCC
The UK AIC 73/2001 (Yellow 58) RTF Discipline-Initial Calls On Frequency addresses the specific question and provides the answer refered to by Northener etc.
'The UK AIP states 'The pilots of all aircraft flying Instrument Departures should include at least the following items of information on first contact with Approach Control/Departure Radar;
a) Callsign
b) SID Designator where appropriate
c) Current or passing ALT/FL: plus,
d) cleared Alt/FL. For SIDs involving stepped climb profiles, state the INITIAL Alt/Fl to which the aircraft is climbing' (My capitals)
An example of the issue is a Lambourne departure from Gatwick. From 26L the SID has the following altitude restrictions;
Cross
DET D29 at 4000' or below
DET D15 (ACORN) at 5000'
LAM D15 at 5000'
LAM D10 at 6000'
LAM VOR at 6000'
On departure your INITIAL cleared altitude is 4000 feet and this is the level we want to hear along with the other details stated above. If your intitial call is somewhere between DET D28 and D15 your initial cleared altitude is 5000 feet, this is the level we want to hear. The final SID altitude is 6000 feet but you only climb to it, and you should only report climbing to it, once you have passed the DME restrictions or are instructed to climb by ATC.
The SID plate in the UK AIP also includes the information to be included on first contact;
4 Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and initial cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'.
There were 64 reported level busts in 2003 and 2004 combined where aircraft have failed to follow the SID correctly, at least 50 of those involve a step climb SID.
'The UK AIP states 'The pilots of all aircraft flying Instrument Departures should include at least the following items of information on first contact with Approach Control/Departure Radar;
a) Callsign
b) SID Designator where appropriate
c) Current or passing ALT/FL: plus,
d) cleared Alt/FL. For SIDs involving stepped climb profiles, state the INITIAL Alt/Fl to which the aircraft is climbing' (My capitals)
An example of the issue is a Lambourne departure from Gatwick. From 26L the SID has the following altitude restrictions;
Cross
DET D29 at 4000' or below
DET D15 (ACORN) at 5000'
LAM D15 at 5000'
LAM D10 at 6000'
LAM VOR at 6000'
On departure your INITIAL cleared altitude is 4000 feet and this is the level we want to hear along with the other details stated above. If your intitial call is somewhere between DET D28 and D15 your initial cleared altitude is 5000 feet, this is the level we want to hear. The final SID altitude is 6000 feet but you only climb to it, and you should only report climbing to it, once you have passed the DME restrictions or are instructed to climb by ATC.
The SID plate in the UK AIP also includes the information to be included on first contact;
4 Callsign for RTF frequency used when instructed after take-off 'London Control'. Report callsign, SID designator, current altitude and initial cleared altitude on first contact with 'London Control'.
There were 64 reported level busts in 2003 and 2004 combined where aircraft have failed to follow the SID correctly, at least 50 of those involve a step climb SID.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 132
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From: Costa del Hampshire
Why not make the SID easier and just have a block restriction at 4000 feet? No cause for confusion.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The steps also take the traffic above other SIDs that are climbing underneath with their own steps.
Heathrow gets the best deal, everything to 6,000ft with the other airfields all fitting in underneath.
Worst case scenario doing away with steps altogether...LCY deps might have to go via the Blackwall Tunnel and the M25
WF.
Heathrow gets the best deal, everything to 6,000ft with the other airfields all fitting in underneath.
Worst case scenario doing away with steps altogether...LCY deps might have to go via the Blackwall Tunnel and the M25
WF.
