Big thanks to Manchester ATC
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Big thanks to Manchester ATC
A big thanks to the controller manning Manchester radar yesterday around 1000Z. I got refused a crossing of the CTR and because I was unfamiliar with the area, at low level, in turbulence, haze and a 20+ headwind was having difficulty finding my way into the low level route.
I had naively assumed that since I had filed I would know before take-off from Blackpool if I was going to get refused the crossing. Won't make the same mistake again. (will also practice some NDB tracking next time I go up, which would have saved me the embarassement.)
Would also appreciate an explaination of why I got refused the crossing and what route would be acceptable. Thanks.
Mak
I had naively assumed that since I had filed I would know before take-off from Blackpool if I was going to get refused the crossing. Won't make the same mistake again. (will also practice some NDB tracking next time I go up, which would have saved me the embarassement.)
Would also appreciate an explaination of why I got refused the crossing and what route would be acceptable. Thanks.
Mak
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Hi Mak,
Not sure if you were IFR or not but the low level corridor is there specifically to reduce transits through Liverpool and Manchester zones.
I know the low level like the back of my hand but I suppose it can be daunting for people who do not use it regularly.
Manchester do sometimes afford routing directly over the airport, which is nice, but this is at their discretion and tends to be done during quiet periods and I suspect (although could be wrong) is done more for aircraft they are familiar with working - i.e. out of Barton and Blackpool. It is reasonably common for Manchester to allow Barton based aircraft in particular to route direct during quiet periods.
Bodie
Not sure if you were IFR or not but the low level corridor is there specifically to reduce transits through Liverpool and Manchester zones.
I know the low level like the back of my hand but I suppose it can be daunting for people who do not use it regularly.
Manchester do sometimes afford routing directly over the airport, which is nice, but this is at their discretion and tends to be done during quiet periods and I suspect (although could be wrong) is done more for aircraft they are familiar with working - i.e. out of Barton and Blackpool. It is reasonably common for Manchester to allow Barton based aircraft in particular to route direct during quiet periods.
Bodie
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Mak
What is the purpose of your posting ?
so you get refused transit through the man control zone ,so what, would you be posting the same line if you were not allowed through the Gatwick Ctr if they were busy.Read and learn what Bodo has to say about the Low Level Route.
Pre plan you flight better ,assume the LLR and anything else is a bonus.
Dont get airborne and expect to go where you want to go.
Dont slag off ATC when you dont get what you want especially around a major International airport.
What is the purpose of your posting ?
so you get refused transit through the man control zone ,so what, would you be posting the same line if you were not allowed through the Gatwick Ctr if they were busy.Read and learn what Bodo has to say about the Low Level Route.
Pre plan you flight better ,assume the LLR and anything else is a bonus.
Dont get airborne and expect to go where you want to go.
Dont slag off ATC when you dont get what you want especially around a major International airport.
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Opnot, not sure if you noticed, but I think the point of Mak's post was:
and
IMHO Mak isn't 'slagging off ATC', he's asking for an explanation, which is admirable. Even more so because he/she obviously didn't do it on frequency at the time, and we all know how crews' questions regarding our decisions sometimes come in the most inopportune moments!
Big thanks to Manchester ATC
A big thanks to the controller manning Manchester radar yesterday around 1000Z
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mak
"IF" you filed a VFR plan, then "Only" London/Associated FIR/s and "Destination" Aerodrome will be notified.
Out of interest, where were you from [Blackpool?] and to?
The "Low Level Route" is an "relatively" easy path transiting the Manchester/Liverpool complex.
You were "refused crossing of the CTR" join the club
. Sorry, BUT 85% have to be vectored away.
I was in the tower at that time yesterday, and we were rather busy, on 06 as it happens, so the "Overhead" would have affected 30+ flights arriving and departing.
that is "precicely" why we have a Low Level Route
BTW, you could have asked Liverpool for a Zone Transit.
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
posted after radar etc, still have "truths" though
"IF" you filed a VFR plan, then "Only" London/Associated FIR/s and "Destination" Aerodrome will be notified.
Out of interest, where were you from [Blackpool?] and to?
The "Low Level Route" is an "relatively" easy path transiting the Manchester/Liverpool complex.
You were "refused crossing of the CTR" join the club
. Sorry, BUT 85% have to be vectored away. I was in the tower at that time yesterday, and we were rather busy, on 06 as it happens, so the "Overhead" would have affected 30+ flights arriving and departing.
that is "precicely" why we have a Low Level Route
BTW, you could have asked Liverpool for a Zone Transit.
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
posted after radar etc, still have "truths" though
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Gozo
read the last line of Maks posting, I would take it that he was miffed because he did not get what he was expecting
I think his "Thanks Manch etc" was on the sarcastic side unless something is missing from his post
read the last line of Maks posting, I would take it that he was miffed because he did not get what he was expecting
I think his "Thanks Manch etc" was on the sarcastic side unless something is missing from his post
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Opnot - I think Mak is just a genuine guy/girl looking for an explanation - I know a lot of PPLs who think that by filing a flight plan that all units along their route will know they are on the way. We don't know if this flight was IFR or VFR.
Reading between the lines I think this may be an IFR flight but having to remin in Class D and below, perhaps because Mak dosen't have an IR, but an IMC rating. Given the sector safe alt in the NW quadrant of the Manchester Zone is 3500, and the Class D airspace is below this then it's not really possible to transit IFR unless you hold an IR and your ac is equipped for it. Additionally some Manchester SIDs fire towards where you would be flying in to - this would mean none standard departures being put in place for departing commercial traffic, and none standard go-around procedures for every arriving aircraft.
If you were VFR then the LLR is definately the way to go - it's very rare that Barton fixed wing traffic transits the zone - usually just helis inboud to private sites inside the zone itself.
Hope this helps
Reading between the lines I think this may be an IFR flight but having to remin in Class D and below, perhaps because Mak dosen't have an IR, but an IMC rating. Given the sector safe alt in the NW quadrant of the Manchester Zone is 3500, and the Class D airspace is below this then it's not really possible to transit IFR unless you hold an IR and your ac is equipped for it. Additionally some Manchester SIDs fire towards where you would be flying in to - this would mean none standard departures being put in place for departing commercial traffic, and none standard go-around procedures for every arriving aircraft.
If you were VFR then the LLR is definately the way to go - it's very rare that Barton fixed wing traffic transits the zone - usually just helis inboud to private sites inside the zone itself.
Hope this helps
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Squadgy
The answer to the problem is quite simple
landing rwy06 ,IFR/VFR wishing to transit the Man ctr north to south gets in the way of everything in and out of Manch, so you have 4 choices.
1 fly vfr down the LLR
2 Req an ifr clearance and expect to go around the zone
3 call Liverpool and request clearance through their airspace.
4 request transit of the Man ctr,it may be your lucky day and you get it
Please dont complain if you dont get what you except
The answer to the problem is quite simple
landing rwy06 ,IFR/VFR wishing to transit the Man ctr north to south gets in the way of everything in and out of Manch, so you have 4 choices.
1 fly vfr down the LLR
2 Req an ifr clearance and expect to go around the zone
3 call Liverpool and request clearance through their airspace.
4 request transit of the Man ctr,it may be your lucky day and you get it
Please dont complain if you dont get what you except
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I think that's pretty much what I had said - I really don't think anyone is complaining though whatsoever. I think that sometimes an explanation rather than just 'go that way because thats the way it is', is far better - the R/T isn't the best place to do this, (too busy), so I think Mak's done the right thing by asking here.
Mak.
I was the Manchester Approach controller on duty when you made your request. I remember it well. The reason we couldn't clear you through was because you requested a direct route to Jodrell bank which would take you through a 5 mile final at Manchester. We were on dual runway operations landing 06R and to facilitate your crossing would have involved providing a gap in inbound traffic to allow you to transit the ILS. Also, as you say, there was a stonking SE wind that day and your groundspeed was very low which would also increase the time interval of the gap required to get you through. The Low level route on the other hand, would provide you with a transit of controlled airspace whilst adding only 3 to 4 miles to your desired track. I asked you if you were familiar with the Low level route and you told me you weren't but then when I asked if you could see it on your chart you asked me for vectoring towards it. I recall giving you a QDM for Wigan and then, as you appeared unsure tried to get you onto the M6 which from where you were at the time would feed you into the LLR. Unfortunately you had difficulty spotting the M6 but volunteered the info that you could fly the WHI NDB. To keep things more simple for you this was why we told you to track the NDB if you were happy doing so whilst maintaing VMC and we arranged a hand off to Liverpool for your transit as the track you would need to make good would take you through their CTR. The day was a very strange one with average visibility but no cloud below 5000ft and that strong SE above 1000ft. I hope the rest of your flight was more uneventful! I had a couple of PA28's call me later on route from Jurby going down South and that wind had them diverting for fuel when south of the Manchester zone! If you're heading into these parts again you might find this link handy.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/DAP_ACD_ManLowLev.pdf
I hope this works!
Spiney
I was the Manchester Approach controller on duty when you made your request. I remember it well. The reason we couldn't clear you through was because you requested a direct route to Jodrell bank which would take you through a 5 mile final at Manchester. We were on dual runway operations landing 06R and to facilitate your crossing would have involved providing a gap in inbound traffic to allow you to transit the ILS. Also, as you say, there was a stonking SE wind that day and your groundspeed was very low which would also increase the time interval of the gap required to get you through. The Low level route on the other hand, would provide you with a transit of controlled airspace whilst adding only 3 to 4 miles to your desired track. I asked you if you were familiar with the Low level route and you told me you weren't but then when I asked if you could see it on your chart you asked me for vectoring towards it. I recall giving you a QDM for Wigan and then, as you appeared unsure tried to get you onto the M6 which from where you were at the time would feed you into the LLR. Unfortunately you had difficulty spotting the M6 but volunteered the info that you could fly the WHI NDB. To keep things more simple for you this was why we told you to track the NDB if you were happy doing so whilst maintaing VMC and we arranged a hand off to Liverpool for your transit as the track you would need to make good would take you through their CTR. The day was a very strange one with average visibility but no cloud below 5000ft and that strong SE above 1000ft. I hope the rest of your flight was more uneventful! I had a couple of PA28's call me later on route from Jurby going down South and that wind had them diverting for fuel when south of the Manchester zone! If you're heading into these parts again you might find this link handy.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/DAP_ACD_ManLowLev.pdf
I hope this works!
Spiney
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Although that document is very useful, personally I find the Manchester LLR is a legislative quagmire.
Ambiguities include:
Use of the route at night. It's still class D airspace, so you'd either need to be SVFR or IFR. In either case, ATC are required to provide separation and I don't see how this can be guaranteed if aircraft are not talking to ATC. As far as the CAA is concerned, the notifications in the AIP are your clearance to transit SVFR at night or in reduced vis. Bizarre, to say the least.
Should ATC be quiet enough to talk to you, what service can you expect? A FIS? Again, it's still class D airspace - so (in theory, at least) you should be under a radar control service if you are talking to Manchester Approach - which includes the passing of traffic information between VFR flights and providing separation between SVFR/IFR flights.
Minimum inflight visibility 4km. Where exactly did that figure come from? If the inflight visibility (as assessed by the aircraft commander) was 4000m, what flight rules exactly is he operating under? He cannot be VFR in class D airspace (the ANO makes no provision for a reduction to this requirement) so again, he must be SVFR operating under that odd AIP notification.
Ambiguities include:
Use of the route at night. It's still class D airspace, so you'd either need to be SVFR or IFR. In either case, ATC are required to provide separation and I don't see how this can be guaranteed if aircraft are not talking to ATC. As far as the CAA is concerned, the notifications in the AIP are your clearance to transit SVFR at night or in reduced vis. Bizarre, to say the least.
Should ATC be quiet enough to talk to you, what service can you expect? A FIS? Again, it's still class D airspace - so (in theory, at least) you should be under a radar control service if you are talking to Manchester Approach - which includes the passing of traffic information between VFR flights and providing separation between SVFR/IFR flights.
Minimum inflight visibility 4km. Where exactly did that figure come from? If the inflight visibility (as assessed by the aircraft commander) was 4000m, what flight rules exactly is he operating under? He cannot be VFR in class D airspace (the ANO makes no provision for a reduction to this requirement) so again, he must be SVFR operating under that odd AIP notification.
iamtheone.
No Unfortunately not yet. I hope the offer doesn't time expire! I've been very busy lately. I've also got an offer to fly with GLEEZ in the Jetranger but haven't done that yet either! The number for Chris is pinned to the board in front of me as I type. Bet Barton is afloat after the last couple of days!
Spiney
No Unfortunately not yet. I hope the offer doesn't time expire! I've been very busy lately. I've also got an offer to fly with GLEEZ in the Jetranger but haven't done that yet either! The number for Chris is pinned to the board in front of me as I type. Bet Barton is afloat after the last couple of days!
Spiney
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It wont expire dont worry!! Ill remind him tomorrow. I got soaked this morning walking the field, but atleast it was quiet and i got to read for a full day with only the police bubble to disturb me! It makes up for the busy days when you earn what you are paid for! I suppose we all have days like that. Do you still fly the luscombe? You should come say hello some day
Indeed I still do! Just coming to the end of the Permit renewal so hopefully a test flight shortly. Keep telling Squadgy I'm going to visit then something else turns up or, particularly this year, the weather is rubbish!
Thanks for keeping the option open!
Spiney
Thanks for keeping the option open!
Spiney
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Just for your info! the fields doing great! the new Drains really work well 
and its great that the guys who are on th other end of the ''phone'' take such an interest in us 
and its great that the guys who are on th other end of the ''phone'' take such an interest in us
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It is always nice to receive a genuine thank you and I believe that Mak is genuine. Also, good explanation of the situation from the controller. 1261 is right - the Low Level Route rules are, to say the least, complex - e.g. can fixed wing aircraft comply properly with Rule 5 when in the low level route - especially at the northern end?
peatair.
The rules for the low-level route are a typical mish-mash of figures and requirements that were written may years ago and have been 'adapted' to the airspace as it is now. I couldn't tell you when the LLR was established, but it was certainly in existence in 1970. At that time the whole Manchester CTR was 'rule 21' airspace, (Class A as it would be now). Regarding wether you can use it in the northern section and comply with rule 5 I think the best answer to that is included in the briefing I linked too in the earlier post. When I'm flying I definately would not fly over the centre of Warrington but go around on the East side. I'm quite happy with the rest of the route provided a little care is taken as I feel I can safely fly at such a height that would enable me to alight clear of a built up area in the event of engine failure. There was some discussion some years back about changing the max altitude in the northern portion and possibly changing some of the rules but for practical reasons it was decided that the LLR worked best as it was. Wether that will be so in future is another matter! By the way, I can remember seeing an RAF Vulcan using it around 1971!! Wouldn't want to meet that coming the other way!!
Spiney
P.S. I've just looked at your profile and see you're a retired ATCO so you'll know all about Rule 21! Probably seen a few Vulcans go through the route yourself!
The rules for the low-level route are a typical mish-mash of figures and requirements that were written may years ago and have been 'adapted' to the airspace as it is now. I couldn't tell you when the LLR was established, but it was certainly in existence in 1970. At that time the whole Manchester CTR was 'rule 21' airspace, (Class A as it would be now). Regarding wether you can use it in the northern section and comply with rule 5 I think the best answer to that is included in the briefing I linked too in the earlier post. When I'm flying I definately would not fly over the centre of Warrington but go around on the East side. I'm quite happy with the rest of the route provided a little care is taken as I feel I can safely fly at such a height that would enable me to alight clear of a built up area in the event of engine failure. There was some discussion some years back about changing the max altitude in the northern portion and possibly changing some of the rules but for practical reasons it was decided that the LLR worked best as it was. Wether that will be so in future is another matter! By the way, I can remember seeing an RAF Vulcan using it around 1971!! Wouldn't want to meet that coming the other way!!
Spiney
P.S. I've just looked at your profile and see you're a retired ATCO so you'll know all about Rule 21! Probably seen a few Vulcans go through the route yourself!
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Thanks Spiney Norman -
I've now read your briefing - very helpful. I've also had a look at the AIP. I guess that given decent enough weather - (certainly not like this week!!) - the route is just OK given that the applicable requirement is to "alight clear."
By the way, I know that the low level route was in existence as long ago as 1965 but aligned more north/south than it is now. There was also a short link into Barton. I think a realignment took place a couple of years ago because of the new Manchester runway. The redesign seems to me to be much better than it was previously.
It seems that it is intended to be a visual route and so GPS (or NDB at Whitegate) should not really be relied on. I don't see how it could be sensibly used at night however???
Seems sensible to at the very least listen out on Manchester Approach radar frequency but I guess they don't really want calls if they can be avoided?
Sincerely
peatair
I've now read your briefing - very helpful. I've also had a look at the AIP. I guess that given decent enough weather - (certainly not like this week!!) - the route is just OK given that the applicable requirement is to "alight clear."
By the way, I know that the low level route was in existence as long ago as 1965 but aligned more north/south than it is now. There was also a short link into Barton. I think a realignment took place a couple of years ago because of the new Manchester runway. The redesign seems to me to be much better than it was previously.
It seems that it is intended to be a visual route and so GPS (or NDB at Whitegate) should not really be relied on. I don't see how it could be sensibly used at night however???
Seems sensible to at the very least listen out on Manchester Approach radar frequency but I guess they don't really want calls if they can be avoided?
Sincerely
peatair