Student Pay!
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can anyone tell me if this is part of the pay deal on which NATS ATCOs are being asked to vote ??
There is nothing mentioned on it in the Prospect recommendation paperwork, but there again as we have experienced from the pay regrading briefings, there does seem to be sparse knowledge amongst Prospect BEC members as to how exactly things have been worked out (transparently !!) so the missing information is perhaps understandable.
If it is part of the deal, then it strikes me as strange that a union would be seeking to cut the pay of any part of its potential membership and/or a part of the structure (ATCOs) which it represents.
Call me cynical, but it seems to be yet another example of 'stealing from the poor to feed the rich' which characterises the philosophy of this current proposal.
Gonzo
You make a fair point ... but as NATS has advertised the going rate in adverts in the press, etc, then they leave themselves open to action because of it. Suing NATS for the difference in pay because of the misleading adverts may be the way for future Students to make up the pay difference 
055166K
A slight touch wide of the mark there. Whilst numerically there may be no shortage of applicants, there is a very real shortage of suitable candidates. The number of people who exist in the population who want to do the job for altruistic reasons is a drop in the ocean of the numbers of people who we need to get in to the training system and filling up our shortfalls. That's a fact of life.
So all those other candidates (who you so politely suggest don't bother to even apply) need to be attracted by something. Apart from money, what else is there ?? We certainly can't sell the job on the understanding caring workmates that they may find in NATS. Not judging by some of the posters on here anyway
niknak
We don't get enough high calibre applicants at the moment. And I understand the number who apply each year is steadily falling. A few people getting frigged around by the system and deciding not to progress their application is hardly likely to be a major factor in turning that around is it ?? 
The NATS recruitment system is a bit of a mess as anyone looking in can see. It is unwieldy, takes far too long, and is uncommunicative and 'sterile' to the applicants. And it is not producing the right number of high quality bums on seats that we all require to stand still, yet alone provide the manpower for the future. Though it pains me to say it, we can't possibly be proud of it can we ?? Shouldn't we be looking to up our game in this area ? Perhaps even get Eurocontrol to do it for us ? As a Eurocontrol State, we pump a lot of Euros their way already so why not get some benefit from it ??
For anyone paying interest to NATS recruiting over the last 5 years, it has not been a great performance. I don't blame those involved in the process, nor those who work hard with little or no resource to try and make it work. I firmly blame the system that we have put in place. And it's time it was seriously looked at and revamped to make us a leader in ATC recruitment. (We're already aiming to be world leaders in Air Traffic Management - cos our Mission Statement says so !!
)
There is nothing mentioned on it in the Prospect recommendation paperwork, but there again as we have experienced from the pay regrading briefings, there does seem to be sparse knowledge amongst Prospect BEC members as to how exactly things have been worked out (transparently !!) so the missing information is perhaps understandable.
If it is part of the deal, then it strikes me as strange that a union would be seeking to cut the pay of any part of its potential membership and/or a part of the structure (ATCOs) which it represents.
Call me cynical, but it seems to be yet another example of 'stealing from the poor to feed the rich' which characterises the philosophy of this current proposal.
Gonzo
WRT the decrease in salary; yes, I can see why one might be put out, but let's be honest, anyone who doesn't have, in writing, the payscale they'll be on before joining the company (ie. when you send back the 'Yes, I'll accept the offer of emplyment' letter), only have themselves to blame. IIRC that same letter detailed the salary I'd be receiving. Up until that point there is no commitment on either side.
055166K
There is no shortage of applicants for ATCO jobs. Maybe now we will get trainees attracted to the job by factors other than money. For the rest, the door is over there!
So all those other candidates (who you so politely suggest don't bother to even apply) need to be attracted by something. Apart from money, what else is there ?? We certainly can't sell the job on the understanding caring workmates that they may find in NATS. Not judging by some of the posters on here anyway
niknak
What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.
The NATS recruitment system is a bit of a mess as anyone looking in can see. It is unwieldy, takes far too long, and is uncommunicative and 'sterile' to the applicants. And it is not producing the right number of high quality bums on seats that we all require to stand still, yet alone provide the manpower for the future. Though it pains me to say it, we can't possibly be proud of it can we ?? Shouldn't we be looking to up our game in this area ? Perhaps even get Eurocontrol to do it for us ? As a Eurocontrol State, we pump a lot of Euros their way already so why not get some benefit from it ??
For anyone paying interest to NATS recruiting over the last 5 years, it has not been a great performance. I don't blame those involved in the process, nor those who work hard with little or no resource to try and make it work. I firmly blame the system that we have put in place. And it's time it was seriously looked at and revamped to make us a leader in ATC recruitment. (We're already aiming to be world leaders in Air Traffic Management - cos our Mission Statement says so !!
)
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 7th Feb 2004 at 18:35.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: NERC
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Further to the following:
NATS obviously don't care about the money wasted on students as they seem to be happy to get rid of students who have passed Aerodrome but fail Area. Thats a real waste if you ask me - a year of training and around £100,000 per student. And a potentially valid AD controller
The (if you ask me) stupid reduction in pay for students really should have been brought in with anyone that gets excepted from now and not for people that have already been given dates to start on a pay scale that has been quoted to them.
At least this gives the new courses a heads up for how NATS changes student contarcts to suit them - 11 times my course had to resign their contracts.
What NATS will get is more applicants than they could ever shake a stick at, who are willing to accept that an employer is going to spend in the region of £250K on their training, not ask for a penny of it back, and give them a brilliant job which pays very well.
The (if you ask me) stupid reduction in pay for students really should have been brought in with anyone that gets excepted from now and not for people that have already been given dates to start on a pay scale that has been quoted to them.
At least this gives the new courses a heads up for how NATS changes student contarcts to suit them - 11 times my course had to resign their contracts.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radar, yes this is in the current Pay Deal we are having a ruck over - the slide was VERY briefly shown to us, only due to it being included in the presentation and the mouse clicks not going quickly enough!!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Somewhere round here, I'm sure
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Going back to the original subject of the thread... I'm one of the ones 3 months and £5k ahead. I, as I believe most TATCs feel sorry for those that have been messed around re start dates and now pay cuts. We were all brought together in one classroom and told about this last week. You wouldn't believe how loud 50 people gasping in shock horror can be.
It's bad news, but Kirstey, mr 777 and anyone else going through the process or even thinking of applying, if you can make it work in any way, it's well worth it. I'm only 5 weeks in and am enjoying it so much.
Right, enough from me, I've got a MET progress test tomorrow, looking forward to it
Wooks
It's bad news, but Kirstey, mr 777 and anyone else going through the process or even thinking of applying, if you can make it work in any way, it's well worth it. I'm only 5 weeks in and am enjoying it so much.
Right, enough from me, I've got a MET progress test tomorrow, looking forward to it
Wooks
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: EGLL
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My son was born 7 months before my cadetship started. I had a mortgage and had to take salary reduction. My wife and I discussed the situation and agreed that I should continue. 2nd child born during unit training. It would have been easy to remain as an ATSA. BUT we knew that in 2 or 3 years life would improve after a major sacrifice to improve my career and earnings. When I finished the course I was 5K in debt, after validation I was 9K in debt, after 15yrs totally debt free (also I paid for my ATPL) and earning more money than I could ever wish for. I had nothing at one time with CCJ's being threatened, but through hard work and living on the breadline it all worked out OK.
I think that if you really want to have a career as an ATCO or Pilot then the sacrifice is minimal. I understand that there may be certain worries regarding failing, but that is the risk.
My final statement is that, life is for living, enjoy it while you can, live for your family and ensure they have the best (as well as yourself). That's what I'm doing.
ILS
I think that if you really want to have a career as an ATCO or Pilot then the sacrifice is minimal. I understand that there may be certain worries regarding failing, but that is the risk.
My final statement is that, life is for living, enjoy it while you can, live for your family and ensure they have the best (as well as yourself). That's what I'm doing.
ILS
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: scotland
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ILS 119.5,
There have been a number of moving stories about people who've made sacrifices and put NATS before family; I admire your bravery and single mindedness if nothing else.
What maybe you're not appreciating is that a good number of candidates will put their family first. Consequently if they've applied believing that their family can only realistically be supported on wage X then finding a matter of weeks before they commence employment that their wage has been slashed is going to cause alot of problems.
This isn't about martyrdom to the pursuit of a career in ATC; nor is it about grasping students -alot of mature canditates are taking hefty pay cuts- it's about the realities of feeding and housing your family.
No applicant can complain about the new wage structure if they apply in full knowledge of it; it's the last minute change after many will have burnt their employment bridges that is causing the angst.
There have been a number of moving stories about people who've made sacrifices and put NATS before family; I admire your bravery and single mindedness if nothing else.
What maybe you're not appreciating is that a good number of candidates will put their family first. Consequently if they've applied believing that their family can only realistically be supported on wage X then finding a matter of weeks before they commence employment that their wage has been slashed is going to cause alot of problems.
This isn't about martyrdom to the pursuit of a career in ATC; nor is it about grasping students -alot of mature canditates are taking hefty pay cuts- it's about the realities of feeding and housing your family.
No applicant can complain about the new wage structure if they apply in full knowledge of it; it's the last minute change after many will have burnt their employment bridges that is causing the angst.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I've spoken to three current student ATCOs now at the College, and they all say that this pay cut is being presented as a done deal. If this is all tied in with the new pay deal (I assume it is, I've not read anything official either way to be honest), then the deal is very far from done!
So people saying things like:
Should really be saying "If the pay deal is voted in......(and Lord only knows when we'll be ballotted!)"
Sorry if it seems pedantic, but those going through the process right now might assume that it's all been settled!
Something I've just noticed, alfie1999....
You say....
So people are handing in notices, etc, before they've even heard if they'll be accepted on to a course?
Is this common?
So people saying things like:
then finding a matter of weeks before they commence employment that their wage has been slashed is going to cause alot of problems
Sorry if it seems pedantic, but those going through the process right now might assume that it's all been settled!
Something I've just noticed, alfie1999....
You say....
No applicant can complain about the new wage structure if they apply in full knowledge of it; it's the last minute change after many will have burnt their employment bridges that is causing the angst.
Is this common?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst the pay cut is an issue for discussion, I guess the response has to be when (or if) it goes ahead, then it needs to be lived with.
With regards the £100 tax free living allowance each month, could someone who has been there and done that give me some advice.
I've seen a lot of posts talking about how much it costs to live in a B&B in Bournemouth, and that the £100 won't cut it. Do you only get this £100 if you stay in a B&B? Mrs G and and I were planning to rent a flat for the time, as she would be working too. If you don't get the cash, then thats a serious blow to me. Any news would help me to develop my plans.
PS. I'm sorry to those whose plans are not going to be as they expected, looks like the holidays and luxuries are going to have to be cut back for me, if I make it. Sorry Mrs G, no Valentines pressie this year!!!
With regards the £100 tax free living allowance each month, could someone who has been there and done that give me some advice.
I've seen a lot of posts talking about how much it costs to live in a B&B in Bournemouth, and that the £100 won't cut it. Do you only get this £100 if you stay in a B&B? Mrs G and and I were planning to rent a flat for the time, as she would be working too. If you don't get the cash, then thats a serious blow to me. Any news would help me to develop my plans.
PS. I'm sorry to those whose plans are not going to be as they expected, looks like the holidays and luxuries are going to have to be cut back for me, if I make it. Sorry Mrs G, no Valentines pressie this year!!!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless things have changed, you get the £100 a month as long as it is receipted. You choose how you want to live, whether it be in a B&B, rent a house/flat, even have a mortgage!!, you'll still get the money!!
Unless it's changed!!
Unless it's changed!!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers Roger,
that's a relief. My mum and dad live in Bournemouth, wonder if the old lady would write a receipt?
Continued good luck to all, now off to buy that Valentine's pressie for Mrs G
that's a relief. My mum and dad live in Bournemouth, wonder if the old lady would write a receipt?
Continued good luck to all, now off to buy that Valentine's pressie for Mrs G
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Surrey
Age: 46
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Garthy
You still get the £100 a week allowance and its not receipted, nor does it apply to people only living in B&B's either. And you also get the entire £100, not just an amount up to the rent you put in for. I'm currently renting a flat with others on my course and the £100 a week more than covers monthly rent and bills so on two incomes you should be fine (although the booze bill is considerably higher 
!!!)
And Gonzo
I was in the meeting where it was announced to the current students a couple of weeks ago and it was put to us that this was definitely cut and dried and will definitely come into effect as from the next intake (which i'm sure they've said is the july-ish intake). There was also no mention of it being part of the new pay deal, nor was there any mention that it may not come to pass if the new deal isn't approved. I may be wrong but as far as I know its definitely happening.
FB
With regards the £100 tax free living allowance each month, could someone who has been there and done that give me some advice.
!!!)And Gonzo
those going through the process right now might assume that it's all been settled!
FB
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: P@$#ing distance from 2 borders
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all you NATS ATC's.
Be very very careful to what you vote upon...if you sell out the future trainees of today ...the future MEMBERS of tomorrow will get their revenge..trust me it has happened in organisations before..namely AUS..ask a couple of the guys from there the division in the ranks that selling out the new guys has caused.
Be very very careful to what you vote upon...if you sell out the future trainees of today ...the future MEMBERS of tomorrow will get their revenge..trust me it has happened in organisations before..namely AUS..ask a couple of the guys from there the division in the ranks that selling out the new guys has caused.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Around
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My mum and dad live in Bournemouth, wonder if the old lady would write a receipt?
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To all you NATS ATC's.
Be very very careful to what you vote upon...if you sell out the future trainees of today ...the future MEMBERS of tomorrow will get their revenge..
Be very very careful to what you vote upon...if you sell out the future trainees of today ...the future MEMBERS of tomorrow will get their revenge..
Which rings the alarm bells in my mind as to what other 'stitch ups' have been hidden from the members as part of this deal. As well as worrying about the terms and conditions of our future students.
Anyone from Prospect or management care to enlighten us as to why this has never been publicly mentioned ?? Are students part of the ATCO structure (and therefore colleagues) or aren't they ??
(A 20% reduction in the Training wage bill appears in a presentation which is supposed to be shown to troops, but with discretion as to which slides should be shown to 'sell it to the staff'. Guess this is part of the money used to finance those of us already in the system .... as part of the 'transparent' deal.)
Starting to stink more than Grimsby harbour on a summers day during a dockers strike
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder how many students currently at the college are members? My course had a one hour talk by the unit rep, and yet only two of us joined whilst at the college. The rest joined when they got to units. If this proportion is still representative, perhaps the fact that there are not many student members means there's nobody to ask questions?
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Planet Plazbot
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pprune Radar I hate to rain on your dismissal of Euro's statement but this is indeed the case. Lots of pissed off people who got screwed in 96/97 and some who continue to get screwed today. There is a very distinct feeling on this. (just to let you know I am not one of the screwed so I have nothing to gain)
Our latest restructure was an attempt at keeping the current employees happy with 2.5% each 6 months of pay rise for 3 years and HALVING yes HALVING the trainees and field training salaries. Plus there are no training allowances like there used to be.
Look what happened at Cathay Pacific A scalers debacle a few years ago. That is a case in point.
Don't screw the newbies just for your own good. It will come back to bite.
Our latest restructure was an attempt at keeping the current employees happy with 2.5% each 6 months of pay rise for 3 years and HALVING yes HALVING the trainees and field training salaries. Plus there are no training allowances like there used to be.
Look what happened at Cathay Pacific A scalers debacle a few years ago. That is a case in point.
Don't screw the newbies just for your own good. It will come back to bite.
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tobzalp,
I totally agree that we should all look after everyone, no matter where they lie in the scheme of things. That's been my thrust all along.
What I fail to see is how anyone screwed in the past has got their revenge. Give me some examples ... at least in NATS. I don't see any cases where the junior blokes (and blokettes) have been able to screw anyone higher up the chain.
Unless our readers know different ???
I totally agree that we should all look after everyone, no matter where they lie in the scheme of things. That's been my thrust all along.
What I fail to see is how anyone screwed in the past has got their revenge. Give me some examples ... at least in NATS. I don't see any cases where the junior blokes (and blokettes) have been able to screw anyone higher up the chain.
Unless our readers know different ???
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: P@$#ing distance from 2 borders
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pprune Radar,
It won't be one person screwing you it will be a majority of the membership and it won't be immediately. Give it 5 or 10 years and the new members will eventually outweigh the old members ( who will have voted this in ) this is the point that I am trying to get out..it won't happen overnight but it will happen. It will cause division in the ranks and it will be what NATS Management is aiming for ie. Divide and Conquer.
It won't be one person screwing you it will be a majority of the membership and it won't be immediately. Give it 5 or 10 years and the new members will eventually outweigh the old members ( who will have voted this in ) this is the point that I am trying to get out..it won't happen overnight but it will happen. It will cause division in the ranks and it will be what NATS Management is aiming for ie. Divide and Conquer.
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Divide and conquer it most certainly is.
The problem with your theory is that after 5 or 10 years in the job the current batch of shafted people will have, in all probability, become greedy cynical ATCOs like the rest of us .... and will be shafting the next generation below them. 
Sad fact of life but we've seen it already a few times in NATS history !!
The problem with your theory is that after 5 or 10 years in the job the current batch of shafted people will have, in all probability, become greedy cynical ATCOs like the rest of us .... and will be shafting the next generation below them.
Sad fact of life but we've seen it already a few times in NATS history !!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately I do not know enough about the following point, although I'm sure somebody will put me right.
Will the new deal mean that when you validate, you start earning an ATCO's wage immediately??
If so, then that surely has to be a good option. That way you will be rewarded for validating and not, as is the current scheme, stuck on a lower pay scale for months on end whilst you operate on your licence.
I would have taken £14,000 to train, knowing that the day I validated I would go onto the 'grown ups' pay scale.
Will the new deal mean that when you validate, you start earning an ATCO's wage immediately??
If so, then that surely has to be a good option. That way you will be rewarded for validating and not, as is the current scheme, stuck on a lower pay scale for months on end whilst you operate on your licence.
I would have taken £14,000 to train, knowing that the day I validated I would go onto the 'grown ups' pay scale.