ATC Navigational Assistance

[disco_air]

My fellow student aviators and I have been in a discussion about whether it is recorded when one asks for 'Navigational Assistance' from ATC.

When I say recorded I refer to an incident report, a record on one's flight crew licence etc.

It is MY understanding that it is not recorded and is something that is encouraged for pilots that encounter significant navigation difficulty, however I want to confirm.

[Dan Kelly]

An uncertainty phase would be declared until cancelled when Navigational Assistance no longer required, or upgraded if one became fully lost! ;)

Possibly a telephone call from the friendly ATSB person.

Shouldn't be recorded on licence, unless of course one is a multiple offender. :sad:

[SM4 Pirate]

A phase would only be declared if you reported 'lost' needing assitance; however if you called at approx 40 ne YSWG requiring a vector for YGLB for example; just call and we'd give you a vector; nothing even written down.

As for things going against a licence, I wouldn't have thought so; who'd care. If you were lost and then went in as a result, because you didn't ask for help then there would definitely be some paper trail somewhere.

Most ATCs actually still believe that we should provide a service; so all would help you; some may put in an event report, but most wouldn't; then what happens; that's up to CASA and or ATSB. ATCs don't care, we're not the air police, even if some think we are.

Bottle of Rum

[olderbutyzer]

One is never lost - temporarily unsure of one's position, yes. But NEVER lost.

[SLBAGAGE]

Getting lost is not hard. Admitting that you are, or you need some assistance, sometimes is!
I've always found ATC more than helpful in most situations. Whether you want vectors on a dark rainy night, or just a position confirmation. Ususally nothing is to much trouble.
If you do get lost, then ask for help from someone. Don't let the situation get worse!
Remember;
If you work on a ship, look after your cook.
A small base, the engineer,
and if you going to fly, then be nice to your ATC, you never know when you might need them.:ok:

[Duff Man]

Coming down the Sydney /BK LOE we'd encourage radar nav assistance especially to unfamiliar pilots in an effort to reduce VCAs. Never recorded as a phase unless they call "lost" or it's taken our initiative to identify the VCA. Just part of the RIS service pack.

[Keg]

I asked for 'confirmation of my position' a decade and a bit ago en-route from Coffs Harbour to Archerfield. I knew where I was within about fifteen mile but knew there was CTA around and didn't want to embarrass myself. It was the end of a long day (long week actually as I had buried a mate a couple of days before!). ATC gave it to us, I didn't ask kfor a vector and we happily found Archerfield. I was absolutely stunned when AF GND told me that ATC had '225'd' me. I called up one of the AF examiners of airmen the next day to have a chat about it and it helped to clear the air.

I learnt a coupe of valuable things from that. Firstly, a 225 in and of itself isn't a bad thing. Since then I've written HEAPS of incident reports for things from bird strikes to encounters with severe turbulence. Secondly, it won't necessarily bite you on the backside- I even mentioned it in my Qantas interview. Thirdly, a decade on, it's a minor thing.

One final note though. It was lack of confidence that nailed me. The position from ATC confirmed I was where I thought I was but I didn't believe myself without them cross checking. Once I had my confidence back, it was all good. If you're lacking that confidence, don't hesitate in checking with someone to get it back. That could mean a radar vector or it could mean a Nav with a flying instructor to brush up on the basics again.

[Kaptin M]

What's the alternative, Disco Air?
Don't request assistance and get lost...end up running out of fuel...or making a precautionary landing in a field somewhere?

ATC are there to help, forget about any "rap over the knuckles" you THINK you might get, but rather think about the SERIOUS possible alternatives if you DON'T ask!

[VB_Capt]

Good post kaptain.

[disco_air]

So what is "225"? :confused:

[Dan Kelly]

In days of old,
When pilots were bold,

an incident report was completed on a form 225. The vernacular soon came to be.

To be 225'd was to have an incident report submitted to the authority.

[defiant]

An instructor showed me a trick if your ever temporarily disoriented in a radar covered area and too embarrassed to own up to it...

Ask for a mode C transponder check. ATC generally comes back giving your ALT and position.

:)

Defiant.

[disco_air]

Ok so some say there is no recording of such an action, and some say there is......

[Keg]

Geez, Disco, for the first time ever I think I've just shown my age! Not nice at just 32!! :(

[Ausatco]

In the then public service speak, Form 225, Air Safety Incident Report.

AA

[Spodman]

I remember a story about a pilot being informed by a tower he had committed a "225-able offence". Superstitions associated with the numbers 225 still dilate the pupils a bit for older folk. No way would I give a heading of 225, 230 will do the same job...:=

For these reasons the Incident Report form ended it's days as form number CA2593, but this change happened about 1987. This makes Keg's decade a bit suss, unless the center's form cupboard was a historical midden.

[Crashlanded]

so to all snr pilots in here...

may i ask? what shall be the best course of action for us student pilots on long or short solo nav if we're unsure of our fix/position?

Just keep quiet or call on ATC? I would definitely call on ATC for position fix.

what would be the best phrase to be said to ATC in oder to avoid such 225 or similar?

i hope an ATC would be very helpful with this topic.
It could mean ones life if delayed too long not admitting ones "lost".

any help/explanations by ATC/snr pilots is greatly appreciated.
Thanks:ok:

[SM4 Pirate]

If you are in radar coverage, and lets face it that's essentially the only place an ATC can help...

use the Phrase "request radar advisory service"; this entitles you to an indentification process, a snap shot of radar observed traffic and any pertinent wx (workload permitting).

Otherwise just call in your approxiamate location, request a 'Mode C' check.

Or just tell us your predicament but don't say "lost". Request Navigational assistance for Waypoint or destination; etc.

Bottle of Rum

[Crashlanded]

SM4 Pirate

sounds like ure an ATC :)

Thanks for the infos. Greatly appreciated matey :ok:

guess if i were to use phrase like "request exact position from **** airport for navigational purposes" ; I should be able to get some help from ATC in pinpointing my exact location.

If it's not the appropriate way/manner, pls advice ..Thanks!

any help n clarification from an ATC is greatly appreciated :)

[Four Seven Eleven]

SM4, Duffman and others are spot on.

Simple rules:

If you are LOST, say so and ATC will help you. As this constitutes a minor 'emergency', and incident report will be filed. At a guess, the 'lost' call could include a 'PAN PAN'.

If you just want to verify/determine your position, or want a radar advaisory heading, ask and you shall receive. No paperwork, no charge..... all part of the service.

Either way, don't let 'positional uncertainty' lead to a real incident, such as a VCA.

4711

[Crashlanded]

4711 Roger Wilco :ok:
Thanks matey for the clarifications :)
greatly appreciated :ok: