Thames Estuary towers

[Hairyplane]

Take a look at the half million aviaton chart just to the north east of the Isle of Sheppey in the Thames Estuary and you will see 'Red Sands Tower' and - a bit further out - 'Shivering Sand Tower'.

THese are not single towers but groups of them - used throughout WW2 as anti-aircraft gun emplacements.

THe Germans used to mine the Thames Estuary from various aircraft.

The incredible boom defence - a series of huge wooden piles ( lke a big fence!) that stretched across from Sheppey to Southend (I remember them clearly as a kid - they were removed in the 60's) - kept the submarines and surface ships out too.

As a Sheppey kid (any of my old mates out there?) the forts always held a great mystique for me. I flew around the Red Sands tower(s) a couple of weeks back and my throat immediately dried up. They are so eeerie! Enormous structures. At 500ft you appear realy close!

What a feat of engineering to erect them.

There's a book on them coming my way from my mate and fellow Pruner 'Stampe'.

I am also planning a trip out to them on the Waverley paddle steamer next month.

Any facts and figures on these towers from you buffs out there will be appreciated.

HP

[Man-on-the-fence]

Mr H

Are these (http://www.offshore-radio.de/fleet/redsands.htm) and these (http://www.offshore-radio.de/fleet/shivering.htm) they?

very impressive structures and I agree they must be quite eerie nowadays. Does anyone know if visits are possible / advisable nowadays?

[ChrisVJ]

Remember the forts wellfromtrips on the Medway Qeen, about mid 50's. My mother told me that during the war she made several trips out to them with luxuries. Sadly, I think, the Medway Queen is long gone. We used to live in Whitstable so they were an item of local interest.

[Hairyplane]

Well done MOTF. Great pictures!

Apart from the lack of gantries, they look just like that, but all rusty and a lot spookier!

Maybe you, Damien B and I ought to fly out to them in the Robin?

OK - single engine over water isn't a good idea but then - wheres the spirit of adventure?

Also - if we did go for a swim, the three of us (well we aint stick insects are we?) could keep each other warm whist waiting for the helicopter.

I must say though - the very thought of it makes my bottie pout.. (the sight of the forts, not treading water while cuddling you guys...!)

I think I should stick to my original idea and go out there on the Waverley paddle steamer next month.

Medway Queen - a sad derelict hulk in a creek somewhere off the Medway I am told. I think they did make her watertight for a while, following her recovery from the Isle of Wight in the late 80's - but the costs involved in restoring it would be colossal.

I remember her well in all her glory.

She was a proud ship once, and of course a very well known Dunkirk veteran. Sad...

Do you remember the Silver Star and Sheppey Queen pleasure boats that plied out of Sheerness in the 60's? Ivan (bent-neck) Dollimore used to tout for trade throughout the summer.

What happened to them?

Those were the days you could go out to the Montgomery munitions shipwreck without trouble. A different story now!

All fascinating, nostalgic stuff.

Thanks again for the piccies of the forts - (pout pout.)

HP

[PPRuNe Pop]

Any way we can organise a breeze round the towers? I for one would enjoy it.

I had the pleasure of doing that on two of the Solent forts. It is mind blowing.

PPP

[Man-on-the-fence]

A trip round the towers does rather sound fun and besides if one engine was good enough for Bleriot then its good enough for me. After all if we ditch we can always use DB as a life raft:E :E

Seriously though I bow to your better judgment Mr H. Not sure about a trip round in a boat though, aren’t they a bit dangerous. I mean they cant climb out of trouble:ok:

(Then again with me and DB on board neither can a plane)

[DamienB]

Ignoring the insults and the worrying cuddling aspect, I shall send the missus this way shortly, you'll see why...

[Mrs_DamienB]

So, you're a Sheppey kid too then HP?

My Mum's family still live on the island and I was born in Minster. Small world, eh?

I can ask Mum for some war stories if you like.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Oi you two, you havent got time to Proone, you're supposed to be panicking cause you just realised you havent Invited Great Aunt Gertie to the reception.....or something like that :ok:

Have fun, see you both on the Dark Side.

[Zlin526]

HairyPlane,

I didnt know Stampe was interested in the forts

I've been flying out into the Thames Estuary to look at 'things' right from when I learnt to fly at Southend. First trip was to the old Gunfleet lighthouse, a wooden structure off Clacton. Not sure it's there anymore, but looked very odd. Then we went out to a radio ship moored off the Essex Coast. 'Laser 558' I think it was called. Just dialled up the radio frequency on the ADF and followed the needle! Got some very nice pics of the trawler, massive aerial mounted on top! Next trip was to the Shivering Sands towers in a Super Cub. As you say, they look very scary, all deserted and rusty. VERY tempting to fly through the middle of them, but just imagine if you hit the towers! Makes me shiver thinking that we went out there single-engined with no life jackets! The naievety of youth!:ooh:

Let me know if you fancy a trip out there in formation, now that you're signed off.:ok:

[sycamore]

Hairy,
you may find the Medway Queen at N51.26.32;E000.37.45//TQ 830745,,as I spotted an old paddle-steamer,in a creek S.of Stoke, last Saturday morning,as I was doing the " Capt. Speaking" bit to the pax in the back!!:ok: :=

[Hairyplane]

Cripes - you have to be joking!

Apart from the legalities - I am sure they aint 1000ft apart - I suspect that they generate some dangerous turbulence in the (inevitable) wind.

in any event, whilst I would bow to the superior knowledge of you 'toggie types' I suspect that the best pictures ain't close up??

No way Jose!

Back in the 70's I used to fly out across the Mudway a lot. At low tide near Kingsnorth there is a WW1 U Boat in the mud.

It seems to have rotted down to the mud now - or sunk a lot more - but you could fly above the mud then and peer right into the torpedo tubes.

I think a trip out to the forts with more than 1 aircraft is a safety plus - a nice calm sea and balmy day is what we need - there will be plenty of boats around then too.

Mrs DB -

Born and bred in Clyde Street Sheerness, my family all live in Minster.

My Great Uncle used to tend his lobster pots off the old Coal Pier at Cheyney Rock. He remembered 'robbing' bits off a B17 that force-landed at low tide. I sent a picture of that a year or two back via my dad to tthe Sheerness Times and Guardian.

He also picked up lots of bits (including some bits of the crew unfortunately...) when the Sparsholt - a small coaster hit one mine, then drove towards the beach before it sank, only to hit another.

I have the clock from it, mounted on a piece of the original timber.

I would love to find a drawing or photos of the ship in order to have a model made.

I bet your mum will remember the Sparsholt - the bow stuck up out of the water off Cheyney Rock until the 60's when the 'Swin' - an auxiliary ship from the dockyard - pulled it out. It was a hazard to shipping.

My GU also remembers a German minelaying aircraft actually flying into the boom defence. I remember my dad pulling a huge lobster out of his saddlebag. They found it in the aircraft wreckage - a haven for lobsters apparently.

Hows the dress coming along??

Am I allowed to take the old man out to the forts if he promises to wear clean pantz?

HP

[PPRuNe Pop]

Ummmmmmmmm! :uhoh:

I was actually suggesting a walking tour! Maybe now though, the walkways are too corroded.

PPP

[Hairyplane]

That would be interesting - I am told by Stampe that the internals were never stripped out and are a real time-warp.

I suspect however that access up into them from a boat would be hazardous. I would also imagine that steps have been taken (ooops - a bit of a pun there...) to prevent access?

Does anybody know?

Stampe has more information on the forts and The Medway Queen. Lets hope he posts some more interesting snippets, including the title of the book on the forts he mentioned to me.

I would love to get up inside them.

I reckon that tours round them would generate a lot of interest.

However, I suspect that we are restricted to looking up at them from a boat or down at them from the air.

When I flew over the Red Sand Tower(s) the other day, there was a small boat with waving people (maybe they were shaking fists??) moored directly between the legs of one of them.

Anybody got any contacts in the Coastguard? I bet they will have the full up to date story.

Anybody remember 'Radio Sutch'? (What a nutter he was.)

That was based on one of the towers.

I also think that somebody tried to declare the Shifting Sands
Fort(s) an independant state once.

Fascinating stuff.

HP

[Man-on-the-fence]

Ahh Screaming Lord Sutch (http://freespace.virgin.net/line.design/forts/radio_sutch.htm) that brings back memories.

A true character, politics is much the poorer since his passing.

[BLUE SKY THINKER]

Similar subject/area, but on the mainland; west of the main road (A249) just prior to the Isle of Sheppey.....

.....has anyone got any info./photos of the large anti-aircraft site at Iwade?

A gentleman from English Heritage featured briefly circling around it in a helicopter on TV the other night. It also appears central to the recent theories about the alleged shooting down of Amy Johnson.

[DamienB]

HP:

Hows the dress coming along??

The dress is still not done :\ So she's forbidden from surfing til it is!

Am I allowed to take the old man out to the forts if he promises to wear clean pantz?

I don't need no permission from her... yet!!! Sounds like it could be fun... late afternoon/early morning for some nice low sunlight...?

[Man-on-the-fence]

Better still we could make a landing and declare the Sovereign territory pf PPRuNeLand. Its been done Before (http://sealandgov.com/)

Dont you just love eccentrics:ok:

the more I read about these forts the more fascinated I become. You have started something Mr H

Theres more.

I have found a fascinating site Here (http://www.hernebayonline.fsnet.co.uk/herne_bay/forts/) which gives more detail on why the forts were built.

Frank Turner, the sites owner has also produced a map

http://www.hernebayonline.fsnet.co.uk/herne_bay/forts/images/map.jpg

Roughs naval fort at the top of the map, eventually became Sealand as mentioned in my post above. I would love to see them. It appears that the BBC has gained access for filming in the past, so access must be possible.

[Hairyplane]

Fascinating research MotF.

I think we should hatch a plan to fly out there before the weather breaks.

The thought of the 3 of us in immersion suits makes me chuckle!!

Lets compare diaries.

VBR

HP

[Man-on-the-fence]

Sounds like fun, PM or Email me. Oh and I am off work all next week, however I think DB may be busy :O :O

Best to avoid Sealand however, they shoot first and ask questions later

[WebPilot]

Hairyplane - the tower declared an independent state was Roughs Tower, one of the smaller Naval AA platforms. Incredibly, it is still lived on and still maintains it's "independence" as the Principality of Sealand!!

http://www.sealandgov.org/

[alexis_lambert]

I know this is a little off topic but were any of you older gents from that area their when the DH108 broke up? Did you witness it or what happened after? I had one guy tell me he was a young lad at the time but remembered it and that the wreckage site was quite vast.

[DamienB]

Right then fruits of today's trip out in HP's Robin to see the forts... Red Sands first:

http://www.jetman.dircon.co.uk/forts1.jpg
http://www.jetman.dircon.co.uk/forts2.jpg
http://www.jetman.dircon.co.uk/forts3.jpg

Now MOTF, can you oblige with the Shivering Sands ones as my dinner's on the table!

[Man-on-the-fence]

They are still coming off the camera old boy (Roll on Windows XP and a new PC next year). Will try to get a couple up later.

Here we go then.

Can I also pass on my thanks to HP for a wonderful day out.

Shivering Sands

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/Shiv8080w.jpg

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/Shiv8083w.jpg

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/Shiv8086w.jpg

Knock John Naval Fort. Once home to Radio Essex

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/knock8093w.jpg

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/knock8102w.jpg

More tomorrow, I'm off to bed.

[DamienB]

Incidentally as for 'flying between the towers', never minding the 500 ft rule, this could be an 'interesting' experience given that some of them still have cables strung between them where the walkways used to be - I'll dig out some closeups this evening.

[DamienB]

I couldn't make out these cables from the air - they only showed up on the photos...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/pprune/cables.jpg

One of the towers in the Shivering Sands group still bears the legend 'RADIO CITY' or something like that... and one of the few that appears to still have access ladders intact...

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/pprune/radiocity.jpg

And finally a couple of views of Roughs Fort/aka the independent state of Sealand (anti aircraft defences thankfully not in evidence):

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/pprune/sealand1.jpg
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/pprune/sealand2.jpg

[Man-on-the-fence]

I have had a look at my piccies. I dont have a good one of wires stretched accross. If I can make them out they are broken and hanging down.

Each time I look at the groups of towers I think of Richard Burton's intoduction to War of the Worlds. Very spooky.

Anyway, whats left of Tounge Sands Fort.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/Tonge8111.jpg

And another view of Sealand.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/Sea8122.jpg

Finally, a couple of Red Sands Fort.

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/Red8073.jpg

http://mysite.freeserve.com/Mil_Photos/red8075.jpg

All in all a cracking day out. Cheers HP:ok:

[Zlin526]

Well done chaps, outstanding pictures..:ok:

You picked a good day for it!

ZZZlin

[astir 8]

Excellent piccies guys. There was a very good article on the forts in an old "After the Battle" magazine that I saw years ago.

Allegedly the army forts were laid out like a standard shore-based AA site, with the individual towers for each gun, while the navy forts were laid out like a ship - very compact.

Also allegedly the navy forts were towed out fully manned and equipped and then sunk onto the sea bed with the crew on board, which can't have been a lot of fun.

At least one of the navy towers was blown up by the government in the 1960's to prevent more "Sealand" nonsense.

[DamienB]

Yeah, apparently the navy wanted to be able to repel boarders while their forts were being put in place... all the accomodation on those ones is in the big concrete legs - must have been luxurious eh!!

[Hairyplane]

Damien B and Man on the Fence

My pleasure to pole you guys around, especially as you hadn't heard any of my well-worn jokes and I had you both as a captive audience for a whole 2hrs and 10 minutes!

I certainly met my match in sarcasm too - wot wags you are.

I thought I'd keep quiet about the black hairdressers gowns (wots all this rubbish about preventing reflections?) very fetching they were indeed on you...!

Was it all worth the pint and the sausage and mash afterwards?

Absobarkinglutely!

The photos are stunningly brilliant - you guys are gifted photographers. Yet another flying ambition ticked off and well recorded for posterity too!

I am trying to arrange a trip out there for us - we can get into some of the towers apparently.

Plenty more jokes left for another trip.

Where next geezers??

HP

[DamienB]

Now single engine over water fair enough but getting into the towers? That sounds bloody dangerous!

As for where next well the previously discussed 8th AF station tour, then there's the Bomber Command station tour, Fighter Command, 9th AF... ;)

[Man-on-the-fence]

Yeah, apparently the navy wanted to be able to repel boarders

Q. How do you repel boarders?
A. Stop changing the bed linen. :ok: :ok:

A trip out in a boat sounds like fun. Strangely enough I don't get sea sick, must be because I can stand up in a boat.

Anyway any excuse to get the air under my feet and a trip round old airfields sounds like fun. Count me in.

[Mrs_DamienB]

How about something Roman? Hadrian's wall perhaps? :D

Sorry lads, I think my bias is showing again...... ;)

[Beeayeate]

Mrs DB wrote. . .
Sorry lads, I think my bias is showing again......

You want to tuck that away lass, especially now as winter draws on. :hmm:

Ref Hadrian's Wall. . . why? :confused:

I reckon a fairly good subject would be a collection of aerial pics of various open-air aviation museums - Flixton, Newark, East Midlands, etc. Myabe even scrapyards that have aviation "bits". Make a good "recognition" quiz sort of thing.

[Stampe]

Stunning pics guys best I,ve ever seen of these fascinating historic sites.HP I,ll dig out the excellent publications for you to borrow by Frank Turner a local historian who has written extensively on the subject and many other local 20 th century history subjects.A bit late for this year but when the Paddle Steamer Waverley is doing the Thames portion of her round the Uk summer day cruises her Thames estuary cruises present an ideal oppurtunity to view the forts and sometimes the great Mr Turner goes along an presents a short lecture on the forts.I,m sure he,ll be very interested to see the pics.I know he sometimes organises trips in small boats from Whitstable and the forts have been boarded in recent years will tryto find out more.:D

[Simtech]

MOTF - a quote from the Goons methinks. Tales of Old Dartmoor perhaps?

Great pictures. I'm more used to seeing the forts from sea level!

FWIW information about their use as pirate radio stations can be found here (http://freespace.virgin.net/line.design/forts/radioforts.htm) and the website of the Principality of Sealand can be found here (http://www.sealandgov.com/)

[astir 8]

Moriarty "Neddie, the prisoners want to go on holiday"

Seagoon "But I can't let them out of jail"

Moriarty "We'll take the prison with us"

Seagoon "But you can't do that - people will talk"

Moriarty "We'll leave a cardboard replica behind"

[Simtech]

Moriarty: "Duck!"

FX: "Quack"

Neddy: " Why?"

Moriarty: "There's a cannon ball coming!"

Neddy: "Right, I'll see you after the ball is over!"

Perhaps we should start a new thread - Favourite lines from the Goon Show? :ok:

[Ailorron]

HP, fascinating stuff - and may I take this opportunity to rave about Damien B and MOTF's wonderful photographs - and the totally wonderful photographs from OW, Kemble, Woburn etc. When is the book coming??? I'd love to take a peek at the towers meself one of these days - if I ever get the privileges back.............. in the meantime, your postings are ever interesting - in fact I have bought myself a new anorak!!!!:ok:

[Hairyplane]

Hi A -

You just dont see this sort of stuff from your 747 do you?!

Anorak - Phooooaaaar!

Please make it one of those Shadwell jobs - you know - khaki green with a nylon fur hood lining.

Welcome to come out to the forts - no problem for you to take the right hand seat in my 4 seat tiddler?

It does have an autopilot you can play with just in case you start to get withdrawal symptoms.

I warn you now - those forts are really eerie cloe up - a bottie twitching experience.

Must sign off - the anorak thing has made me come over all unecessary....!

HP

[Man-on-the-fence]

HP

Methinks you have spent too long near the Hair Glue :} :}

See you on Sunday?


ref Anoraks, the fur lined ones had a tab on the hood, very dangerous,always cut this off.
I had a nasty experiance with a randy sixth former (female thank god) on the back of the bus, she came over all un-necessary one day, tied my tab to a seat and proceeded to snog the living daylights out of me. I wouldnt have minded but her beard got caught in the zipper :8

Anyway back to the forts, you can still see Radio Essex painted on the naval fort, do the Army Towers (Shifting sands and red sands) still have graffitti on them? I can tell from the photos, I guess it has rusted off now.

[BlueRobin]

Where next, the Solent sea forts ?


BR
HP's near neighbour and fellow Robin-ite from Southam ;)

[Man-on-the-fence]

Where next, the Solent sea forts ?

Why not

As we are speaking of the Solent, when a US Carrier is at anchor off Stokes Bay, is a temporary exclusion zone of some sort set up or can anyone over fly it. Just thinking that it might make a nice subject to photograph :ok:

[BlueRobin]

Have got quite close up to a few Solent forts on a boat but never in an aeroplane - always too high en-route to IoW.

TRA? Never seen one but obviously Rule 5 still applies. Airspace aorund Portsmouth harbour is complex given HIRTA at Portsdown Hill.

Wot no Goon knicker jokes? Tsk! :)

[Man-on-the-fence]

Oops sorry letting standards slip:\

[Ailorron]

HP can't beat the old fake fur trim - the pursuit demands correct dress, and the humour is always a great pleasure!! Well, thanks for the offer - would be delighted to take the opportunity sometime - although twiddling knobs (autopilot!!!!!!!) not too much fun - handling, as ever, is. If you have any WW2 paraphanalia to spare for lower school project - I would be very grateful (no, I haven't gone back to school!) And I thought my handle was confidential!!!!! :O

[Mycroft]

Blue Robin
I have flown over and round the 4 Solent Forts (me being the observer) and also the land Forts. The DRA Portsdown HIRTA actually ceased operation many years ago, as confirmed by my pilot who had several interesting conversations when trying to get further info/clearance (ranging from 'If you fly over here we'll zap you' to 'We haven't used that radar for years'.)
The real flight restrictions in the area are caused by flight test activity from DARA Fleetlands in Gosport.

I hope those who were planning the Waverley trip got their bookings in early enough - I was told full up a month ago (but am doing a less adventurous trip up river). I went out to them a few years ago (including going under them, but not boarding) with a small fishing boat who runs trips from Southend on a regular basis.

[DOC.400]

FYI

http://www.sheppeyscum.com

Rgds
DOC

[Hairyplane]

Hi DOC400

Seen the site - I have to say that there is a lot of truth in it....

The DR400 is an excellent camera ship - we tooka few of Minster Abbey etc. too.

HP

[DOC.400]

"The DR400 is an excellent camera ship"

But of course!!


:O

DOC

[Stampe]

DB and MOTF spoke to great man local historian Frank Turner yesterday and he has viewed your pix after some difficulty finding the site initially, he,s very enthusiastic about them.Ironically the P.S.Waverley has just finished a spell in the Thames going round the forts and Frank was on board last Sunday steaming up the Thames when I flew past her on Sunday returning from the final OW display.What a classic sight she makes !!.Frank tells me he boarded one of the forts last year and found it still in dry condition internally ,birds have nested extensively but don,t go inside.He expects them still to be standing in 200 years such is their condition.Will put him in touch with you guys re possible use in "Friends of the Forts" publications.His many works on the subject are well worth aread fascinating subject.;)