Sky News Contract

[MBJ]

Sky News in the UK have awarded a multi-year contract for an AS355 to Arena Aviation for newsgathering purposes. Based out of Redhill, the aircraft will be fitted with a FLIR Ultramedia camera system and some clever downlinking kit.

I had heard rumours that someone was trying to market an R44 for the role. Nice try, Mr Robbo marketing person!

Anyway, may be a job there for someone young, keen and familiar with UK airspace.

[CaptainEagle]

The R44 is used by several newscorporations in the US for newsgathering. The newscopter version has all the gear on it for broadcasting, including a microwave downlink. Have a look on the robinson website

www.robinson-heli.com

They also have a police version which is extremely capable for about 1/8 of the cost of the EC135's and the like.

[headsethair]

There is no reason why an R44 ENG version cannot successfully operate in the UK. It's only limitation is over The Specified Area of London and the continuing strange rule of Public Transport must have floats over water - but Private doesn't have to. Even the turbines have problems with this - and it has been known for a flight and crew to suddenly "go private" to get round a wierd rule.
I know for a fact that the R44 ENG came very close to getting the Sky deal - and that a well known member of the TV profession has placed an order for the ENG with Robinson. Seems it could be certified and running soon.
Comes complete with 3 cameras (incl a nosemount better than FLIR - the FLIR mount they used at first was eating gyros) and the ability to record onboard or transmitt via microwave for up to 80 miles.
And an "in the air" time that would make turbines weep. Very surprised that Sky have gone for the expensive route - what short memories those ex-ITN journos must have of the bank-buster which once stopped operating because there was no money in the pot to pay for a new gearbox.......

[aerialimages]

Small world mbj! Im certainly not working for Frank but thanks for the compliment! Seriously trying to open up opportunities all round for the future rather than retreading old ground. Still vested interests and all that, couldnt imagine yourself in an R44 !It does work very well in U.S...just watch Fox news on satellite to see the range of activities broadcast from U.S. R44 Newscopters, from the banal to the extraordinary but at least the news editors have the choice and theres far more chance of one being around when something epoch-making happens...bottom line is cost. However I wish you all well with Sky/Arena just hope we see more aerial stuff than the ITN deal....Heres to the next time!
P.S. Was that a job offer for me?!

[CaptainEagle]

Robinson should try and target the irish market, I don't know if RTE would have the cash to hold something exclusively, but if there was 1 eng in the country all the channels (including the new digital channels arriving soon) might utilise it. I wonder. Also, our police force over here spent years waiting for their first helicopter, a as355. the good ole air corp operate it though and put so much equipment on it it can barely start up before it needs refueling. it also is on the ground for nearly half of its life.

then there was our ec135, this was bought and paid for while it sat for 2 years in a shed in the UK because of an argument between the dealer and the government here. efficiency.

if we had chose R44's over these helicopters, we could have had more than 10 helicopters instead of just 2. not to mention better air times, quicker turnaround, reduced operating costs, quicker training.

Vested interests indeed.

[Earpiece]

MBJ I'd heard that you are Arena so well done - nice to know that some of us old codgers can keep going:8

[Bright-Ling]

Surely there is little point in having a single engined aircraft for the role?

Given the amount of restrictions over London, the need to alight clear etc a twin has to be the way forward.

Also, with the amount of low flying NEEDED over London who would want to be in a single? (I know it may be used elsewhere but you know what I am mean!)

B-L

[headsethair]

"the amount of low flying needed over London" - not sure what you mean here. All helos operating over any city have to be able to land clear - and this rule affects fully-laden twins just as much as singles. A twin-engine with full tanks, three crew and all that extra tv gear is going to have some problems if an engine goes. So - only my opinion - I don't believe any pilot would want to be low over a congested area. (Could get into an interesting stats discussion here about engine failure rates in twins vs. singles!)
The whole point of a proper news helicopter (fitted with a gyro-stabilised mount and a digital video camera) is that it can actually stay relatively high and still get useful shots. The R44 ENG has a 32X zoom capability - from 1000ft up and half a mile away it can take a decent shot of you on your doorstep and relay that shot live.
No need to go low.

[Bright-Ling]

"No need to go low"

I hear what you are saying, but over most of London you would be not above 1500 QNH.

A news heli would probably be on NSF (Non Standard Flight) status and could be as low as 1000 feet - some are approved down to 750 feet and can be capped not above 800 feet.

The police helicopters and the helimed explorer spend almost all of their time not above 1000' - but surely being twins give them a safety net? (excuse my ignorance here)

A good example was the May Day protest in London, where the police heli and three others all wanted to be exactly over the same spot of the march. I understand the policeman, but why then did the others?

[MBJ]

Hi Aerialimages (Who you? - Ed) I'm definitely not of the "Ugh, Robinson" brigade - far too many of those around and I think its a bit of a precious attitude. If I had the money I'd have my own 44!

I think the news thing though requires freedom of movement over congested areas and in the UK only a twin can give you that, however good the camera/ lens/ links are. Very different in the States where singles are allowed to operate freely in built up areas. Good luck to them.

Good point someone raised about engine failure rates, but if you can keep a 355 reasonably light and moving, I know I'd rather have two than one donk.

[old heliman]

Headsethair

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "All helos operating over any city have to be able to land clear - and this rule affects fully-laden twins just as much as singles. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In UK a heli does not have to land clear of the congested area, it has to be able to land safely. A twin can certainly achieve that on one as it will need to operate to Group A or Class 1 if operating below 1500' over a city. Both A (Rest) and Class 2 require it to be able to have the performance to stay up on 1 also.

Can't see any chance of a single being allowed freedom to operate over UK cities below 1000' as they could not ensure the land safely part of the low flying rule and it applies to ALL flights regardless of whether they are private, aerial work or public transport.

Not knocking Robbos either but they won't work over here over a city, thus no use to Police or ENG operators.

[CaptainEagle]

I've only been over the city of London twice, so I can't comment much about it as I'm not that knowledgable about the UK rules of the air.

In Ireland we are always supposed to be at min 1500ft amsl over congested areas, but quite frequently I am told by ATC to fly "not above 1000" to facilitate commercial traffic into the airport or if the police heli is nearby (you need to give those low time air corps pilots lots of room!) now before all the air law brains come on with the "your the commander tell atc you cannot comply" lark, the alternative is to be re routed half away around the country and economics and common sense dictate that you facilitate atc as long as it does not pose a risk to your flight.

In my opinion, when overflying a really congested area you have few options if the engine fails (in dublin my first choice would be the river liffey which runs through the centre, the VFR route for helis is along it) so whether your at 1000 or 1500 or even 800 won't make that much difference besides you maybe getting a mayday call out.

I'd like to have a second engine always too, but if I owned a news corporation, I don't know how I would justify a 355 when the 44 will do the same job, for an eight of the price.

[Bright-Ling]

Without hijacking the thread...!

I thought that the whole reason for allowing twins or more into the specified area over London was the fact that they could get out of there?

CaptEagle

I understand what you are saying about the rules, and commercial pressures are a factor. I guess Dublin is similar to London in as much as there are a surprisingly high number of parks to land on in an emergency. (and a big river too! :))

Oldheliman

thanks - that is what I understood. I flew with the Met Police ASU Twin Squirrel last year and they were telling me that they could get out of the congested area of London..... we were at 900 feet over Leicester Square at the time! (which scared the pants of me I must admit!!). Not sure I would want to fall in the Thames though from a bridge - let alone a heli!!

[headsethair]

This assumption that all newsworthy events happen in congested areas - just isn't fact. I monitored all the UK news events for the first six months of this year - listing those events which would have been covered better from the air. The ratio of congested v. non-congested areas was 20/80. Nuff said.

And to answer the earlier question about the May Day ops in London - the BBC wasted 8hrs of twin Squirrel time (and licence payers' money) covering a non-event. With a fuel bowser at Woolwich, they were up and down like a tarts' drawers - for a complete non-story. Around £8000.

And a few weeks later, they were saying that all their news budgets were being cut because of the cost of covering Iraq!

Good luck to Sky News - a bold step forward which may chivvy up a few other broadcasters. And well done Arena for getting the gig against some very tough competition.

[AlanM]

The odd thing about the non-story of May Day was the fact that there were 3 helis doing the same task.

The only way it could be done safely was to allow 2 news helis at one time (there were 1 or 2 police there as well of course).

I moved the BBC one off at 1750 Hrs (all news helis were having 30-40mins each in turn) and he bitched a bit about going live for the news, so one of the others kindly offered to move.

I then went on a break to watch the 6 oclock news and there was no live footage!! Typical!!!

:mad: Git!!!!!

[CaptainEagle]

Bright-Ling,

Your right about the parks, but the only one I'd go near to landing in is the Phoenix park which is outside the city, you could put a 747 down in there. I think when the controllers clear you over the congester areas (off the track of the liffey) they expect you to not have an engine failure! I mean it would just be impolite!

I agree with the other statement about the news happening outside congested areas, even events that happen in cities are going to be marches or riots, marches get boring after around 10 seconds, riots are better for watching but rare enough in today's stable culture.

Perhaps my last paragraph belongs on JetBlast.

The costs of using twins for eng is so substantial a company like the bbc could probably make do because it doesn't really matter what they spend does it? for smaller, digital operators using an R44 might be the better option.

[StevieTerrier]

Headsethair wrote :"The ratio of congested v. non-congested areas was 20/80. Nuff said"

Nuff said indeed. What would be the point in paying for a helicopter that had access to only 80% of the stories?

As for the 32x zoom capability of the R44....I believe the UltraMedia kit on the Squirrel has 36 x zoom with a two times extender = 72x zoom.

Bottom line is you get what you pay for. The R44 is a nice little helicopter, but as money wasnt the prime concern for Sky , this "contest" was a no-brainer.

[Hedski]

When working London Special and as a result flying SVFR, you are exempt from the 1500ft rule over congested areas under JAR-OPS 3. The rule you are then limited by is the standard 500ft. 355 would probably recover from OEI fully kitted at about 500ft agl as long as there are no sky-scrapers in the way. I'm a bit rough on that estimation so if others can correct, please do.
CE, just so you know, Dublin is not officially a congested area like London and given the proximity of EIDW and EIME, it would be a bit hairy if we were permanently above 1500ft. Therefore you should follow ATC instructions while remaining within your limits for safety. You can easily glide clear from 800ft if all goes hush over about 80% of Dublin city and just avoid the rest like I do. It's much more hospitable than the likes of London or Paris etc. :ok:

[Droopy]

A heavy 355F2 [worst case] would probably lose about 200ft from a crosswind hover [you never get the best camera angle into wind....]; 355N loses about 70ft. With no Robbie experience I'd be quite interested to know how much height loss from a high weight crosswind hover to best auto speed and just how wide your radius of choice would be from a typical ENG height?

[old heliman]

Hedski,

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------When working London Special and as a result flying SVFR, you are exempt from the 1500ft rule over congested areas under JAR-OPS 3.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You're right regarding the 1500' Rule under SVFR and an ATC clearance BUT unless you have a Permission from the CAA London wio't generally grant a special clearance for photography or anything else. The main thing is that JAR Ops does NOT clear you to operate over a congested area below 1500' (above obstacles etc), that is a UK Rule of the Air and they apply to all flights including JAR 3 CAT flights. JARs do not and cannot, overule them.

[Heliport]

AlanM

The pilot of the BBC helicopter for the May Day marches is concerned by your criticsm, and would be interested to know what problem you had with his operation over London. He recalls first class service from Thames Radar on the day.
He'll contact you off-line - which I think is the best, and fairest, way of dealing with this matter.

Heliport

[AlanM]

Heliport

Have emailed him...!