Age vs experience

[corblimey]

Cathay list that they require experience commensurate with age.

What is the general consensus of this. eg.. 30yr old with 3000hrs, or should a 30 yr old have 4500hrs. What about a 40 yr old.... what should he have.??

Let's here it !!:O

[404 Titan]

corblimey

It all depends if the person has come from a military, airline or GA background. I think you will find that a 30 year old from GA or airline background with 3000 hrs would be on the lower side of age versus experience. The same person with 4500 hrs would be about the average. As for a 40 year old, about 7-9000 hrs would be commensurate with age, mind you I don’t think anyone that age has got into CX recently as an S/O. There have been some in their mid to late 30’s.
:)

[Lloyd Braun]

Surely age v experience would be looked at case by case.

What about career changers who don't take up flying until they are 30. I don't think they would be overlooked because they don't have 4500 hrs.

[404 Titan]

Lloyd Braun

Yes it is looked at on an individual basis. But just like Qantas uses Year 12 Math’s, Physics and English as a means to screen potential applicants, so does CX by using the experience commensurate with age. Your are very unlikely to get an interview if you were 30 years old and only had 1000 hrs of GA experience. If that 1000 hrs were military fast jet then this would be a different story.

:)

[Capt Claret]

I started flying at age 26 so have always been on the back end of the age v expeience curve.

Now at 46 and almost 9000 hrs and jet command time, I'm still on the back end of the curve.

As Ned said, "Such is life"

[Lloyd Braun]

Maybe the age v experience factor will drop off with the next generation of companies (VB, Jetconnect....)

If you pay for your own endorsement then the company doesn't have to worry about a return on the endorsement training investment (like QF and CX do today) so why would they care if you were a 40 yr old F/O with 2000 hrs.

[Soulman]

Hey Guys,

Interesting thread you have going here. From what I can gather (and from almost everyone I have spoken to), military time seems to be worth it's weight in gold. I still have one year of school to go and currently I am studying Maths Methods, Specialist Maths, Physics, Chemistry, English and History - yes, a fair workload, but I can see it paying off. ;)

I have specialist testing for 'Pilot - RAAF' next month, so fingers crossed! Like almost every young 'airforce wannabe', I aspire to get onto the F/A-18. I have heard they only fly around 3 hrs per week, so 150 hours a year. With a ten year ROSO, this should hopefully leave me with something in the vacinity of 2000+ hours.

If it all panned out as above (wishful thinking!), how much better would my chances be of obtaining that illusive airline job? Failing the Air Force, I am very sceptical of the whole self-sponsored approach, as GA jobs seem to be getting scarcer each day. Flying will always remain my passion, and I am willing to give it all I have got.

Thanks in advance,

Souls.

P.S > Anybody have a friend who can help me get into the RAAF? :p I'll pay them!!!;)

[hoss]

And I thought I was at the back end of the curve. 7000+hrs age 30, aiming for 25000+hrs for my retirement:ok: . I would have thought 6000 hrs at 30 would be more commensurate with age from a GA/Regional background, 2000 hrs if military.

Safe flying, hoss

[I Fly]

Commensurate with age means “if we like your smile and your father’s background – you have a chance.

[Winstun]

Soulman,
If I were a concerned Australian taxpayer, I would not be particularly pleased by the use of my money in fighter pilot recruitment of a finger crossing, wishful thinking, bribing, airline wannabe. :rolleyes: and I am willing to give it all I have got. Does that include killing people? :hmm:

[Sheep Guts]

Experience commensurate with age. Really is only another weed out the masses requirement. So they can toss half the resumes in the bin. Hoss good for you but really it gets down too are you a good stick man. Some guys with 10,000 hrs fail sims checks. And a bloke with 500 hours may make an experienced guy look amatuer.

Regards
Sheep

[Boney]

Hey Soulman, Winstun is right!

Notice to anyone wanting to join the Airforce - you will be required to murder innocent people ove the 10 years (or the rest of your career) to satisfy America's thirst for oil.

I hear Soulman (and many like him) protesting about now with, "who gives a ****, I will be flying a fast jet, it will progress my flying career, chicks will think i am a hero, and the innocent victims that get in the way of America's zionist crusade can get stuffed"!

Soulman, you have no soul.

[Soulman]

Well, so much for having a say. I thought PPRuNe was created to help people in their quest for a career in avaition. Sadly - that musn't be the case.

Winstun
"a finger crossing, wishful thinking, bribing, airline wannabe."
"Finger Crossing" - Well, I don't know about you - but last time I checked you couldn't just walk into the Air Force. Apparently it's quite tough. But then again, someone like yourself has probably been approached by the Air Forces of the World, requesting your wisdom and wealth of experience. Maybe I need a little luck?

"Wishful Thinking" - Sadly, the RAAF can't accomodate the 1500 F/A-18 wannabes, as they only have around 70 Hornets. Again, I can only hope of getting one of those positions. Aren't I allowed to have a goal?

"Bribing" - In case you didn't realise, it was a joke, so why don't you build a bridge and get over it.

"Airline Wannabe" - So I'm supposed to be a bum after I leave the Air Force. Perhaps I could take up a pension, sit back and bitch with you.

And as for killing people, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you in a heated debate recently regarding your views on suspected threats and hijackers? You honestly don' think that I have taken that into consideration? Get a grip, please!

As for you Boney
"who gives a ****, I will be flying a fast jet, it will progress my flying career, chicks will think i am a hero, and the innocent victims that get in the way of America's zionist crusade can get stuffed"!
Now whereabouts did I write that? Ohh, that's right I DIDN'T!!!

"Who gives a ****?" - I'm not quite sure - you tell me. That's right, I was going to enrol for 13 years, only not to give a flying f*ck.

"I will fly a fast jet" - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I distinctly stated that I hoped to fly a fast jet. Perhaps you should invest in some glasses, or even some night classes at your local college?

"It will progress my flying career" - Gee - I honestly thought it was a step backwards.

"Chicks will think I'm a hero" - Is that such a bad thing? I thought someone as intelligent as yourself would be reeling the chicks in. :p

"The innocent victims that get in the way of America's zionist crusade can get stuffed" - Can you name one war (not necessarily with American involvement) where there has been not one single innocent victim? Next time terrorism arrives on your front doorstep - don't expect the military to stand up and defend you.

Perhaps I should become a politician? One Nation looks like it needs a kick in the guts to get up and going again... Boney and Wistun - want to join me?

Souls.

[7fortyfive]

Personally I think Winstun brought up a good point because u have to realise as a fighter pilot you are going to be a trained to be a killing machine. It's a huge commitment for any one to take and not one just based on the passion for flying f18s or 16s or whatever it is. If you are called to do your job as a fighter pilot (and kill someone), you HAVE to do it (can't say no, sir, maybe next time). It might even involve something that might be morally wrong for many of us (think WWII... many fighter pilots were asked to strafe defenceless enemy soldiers for example).
In any case, I wish you the best of luck in pursuing your dreams. It's people like the pilots that defend our skies that give us the freedom to do what we're doing today.

[34R]

As a pilot who didn't start his flying training until the eve of his 30th birthday, there was a stage when reading this forum would have had me believing I have no chance to see my airline aspirations come to fruition.
Time away from PPRUNE and its occasional negative spin on reality has, I am happy to say, changed all of that.
Now at 32, in the 20 months since I have held my CPL, my ATPL's are behind me, as is the mandatory CMIR. I have 600hrs in commercial ops to my name, not much I know but the ball is well and truely rolling.
I know I'm up against it, but it doesnt stop me from trying, or heaven forbid even believing that I will get there.
I know a lot of mainline jet drivers, my 8 years as Cabin Crew for the best airline in Australia made that possible, and every one of them thinks I've got as much chance as the next guy.
So to everyone out there who has had the guts to take a chance late in life and live the only dream they have ever held, you go for it. Take note of all that tell you you're too old, you'll probably say g'day to them down the track when you sign on for a duty together. :ok:

[Ang737]

Soulman,

Mate you don't have to justify your reasons for joining the RAAF. Put it this way, after reading previous posts I am surprised to say that least that the text wasn't in green and these people seem green with envy. Give them a chance to operate at 500 knots at 500 AGL and they would be in, that you can bet on...

Go for it Soulman if you can get there and defend this great nation a big thumbs up :ok:

Ang ;)

[deeper]

I started flying at 32, at 50+ have 12000 hours in some of the big jets. plenty of chicks along the way, haven't killed anyone yet.

you get there or you don't.

[hoss]

Classic, I go away for a day or two and its amazing how the topic can change :) .

Sheep Guts: I haven't failed a sim or check yet ( and yes I'm touching wood) so I guess I can say I'm an ok 'stickman' as well as being an extraordinary 'swordsman';) . I know what you mean though.

Ang737: Check your post '500 knots at 500 feet', more like below 100 feet:ok: .

Safe flying, hoss:)

[Ash767]

34R Great to see your post!

I have just turned 30 and I am certainly not going to give up.
I have heard of a number of guys that have started late in the game and made it to the airlines.

Flying a plane is easy. Its the attitude of the person that makes the difference!

Ash767:)

[thinking pilot]

Hey mate I once instructed a guy who had approx 50 hrs and had not gone solo. Some people don't think flying is as easy as you make out.

Just a thought, expand thy mind.

[happydriver]

Well Done 34R...positive threads are always good to read.

[Huron Topp]

7:45
(think WWII... many fighter pilots were asked to strafe defenceless enemy soldiers for example).

Please define what a defenceless enemy soldier is, in this case? Are you saying that fighter pilots were told to strafe unarmed enemy soldiers? From personal experience I can say that their is no such thing as a defencelss enemy soldier, unless he's tied up or handcuffed, and under guard.

[Ash767]

Thinking pilot

There are things in life that some people find easier to do than others. As the old saying goes "If you can do it, it's easy. It is when you can't that things are hard"

I admire the person you once instructed they certainly had determination.

Ash767

[Sperm Bank]

34R good luck with your career. In Europe there are many pilot's who do not start flying until well after there 30th birthday.

Soul, don't take too much offence at some of the responses. As a young guy you obviously have a great career ahead of you. I was going to join the airforce when I left school as my old man did before me. I changed my mind at the last minute and went bush instead. I have been flying for the past 17 or so years (airlines in Oz and Europe for the past 10 years) and generally enjoy it. At 40 years of age and around 11,000 hours of flying, I am just starting to hit my straps.

All the best with your career mate whichever way it takes you.

[7fortyfive]

Huron Topp:

While I have no personal experience in fighting wars, I have read a couple of books on experiences of people involved in WWII. If General Chuck Yeager can be trusted, this is what he says in his autobiography on page 79-80:

Quote

"...the driver of a German staff car. I was coming straight at him; one quick burst and that car disintegratred, four bodies tossed out on the icy road like rag dolls... A soldier running through the snow - zap him... Atrocities were committed by both sides... Our seventy five Mustangs were assigned an area of fifty miles by fifty miles inside Germany and ordered to strafe anything that moved. The object was to demoralise the German population... We weren't asked how we felt zapping people. It was a miserable, dirty mission, but we all took off on time and did it. If it occurred to anyone to refuse to participate (nobody refused, as I recall) that person would have probably been court-martialled... By definition, war is immoral...wartime Germany wasn't easily divided between "innocent civilians" and its military machine. The farmer tilling his potato field might have been feeding German troops."

Unquote

Gen Yeager's biography is a fascinating read about his experiences and I recommend it to anyone. However, I grant that it may have been erroneous for me to take his accounts of what happened as fact, but I wouldn't totally dismiss what he said about atrocities happening. I don't have any experience of war or of killing somebody else but I have been in the military and know the immense responsibility placed upon anyone in the armed forces.

I have the greatest respect for everyone who serves in the military but my point was that anyone considering a career in the military should understand the responsibility they hold when they put on their country's uniform.

HT, if you have had experience in fighting for our country, then I thank you for doing your job. It would be a privilege for me if you could share your experiences with us.

Sorry all if this was a little off topic...

[Sheep Guts]

7fortyfive,
I am the same as you exserviceman with n o action. But I do remember the "Rules of Engagement"

2 states of readyness Red and Amber.

If you were on Amber you had to challenge your enemy to identify themselves.

If were on Red all you had to do was identlfy the enemy. If they looked or had weapon or in any way were identlfyable with the enemy, you could "DROP THEM" to the ground. :E

People wonder why that Camera Man got shot just lately in Iraq. Well a young Marine just fresh from all this training could have easily pulled the trigger and if he was on Red he was in his rights to drop him.

Its a sad tough world

Regards
Sheep

[requestjoining]

Soulman

Good effort with the big reply but... you have to remember that you don't get anywhere in aviation with out respect, especially towards the pilots that are actually pilots. i certainlly wouldn't want to fly with an attitude like that sitting next to me.

anyone can write a smart ass long response on pprune. but your still not sitting in an aeroplane, so i'd lie a bit lower until you are.

basic respect mate, will serve you well

[404 Titan]

requestjoining

I notice you are new to this forum (or are you ?). Respect is a two way street my friend. If the likes of Winstun and Boney can’t show some, (in this case to Soulman) then there is no way they will get it from the other good people on this forum.
:*

[Continental-520]

For sure. It has to be earned. Cannot be demanded. In fact, I'm inclined to think that trying to demand it will only result in disrespect.


520.

[Towering Q]

Getting back to the topic...has anyone else heard of any 'old timers' making the break from GA? If so, how many hours did they have and on what? I'm concerned mainly with those on the wrong side of 35.:{

[7fortyfive]

There are many success stories out there, as I'm sure you have come across. Here's one of them from the Daily telegraph
The link is http://www.careerone.com.au/newsviews/story/0,8523,7130031-22566,00.html
Good luck, and never give up on your dreams!


Profile: Childflight helicopter pilot, Phil Frost

The best career move Phil Frost ever made was shifting interstate at five days' notice to take on a new job with half his normal pay.

Frost's new career was as a Telstra ChildFlight helicopter pilot, a job which rarely becomes available due to the high level of qualifications and experience required and the scarcity of positions.
For Frost, who already had a satisfying and well-paid job as a Queensland police officer with the dog squad, it was the job of a lifetime because it paid him to fly.

"I always wanted to fly," he says. "When I was young I wanted to be either a pilot or a police officer."

"I worked in the bank for nine months after I left school but only until I was old enough to join the police service."

While happily pursuing his 15-year police career in Queensland, Frost also took his first steps towards his dream of flying by volunteering for CareFlight on the Gold Coast.

He started in 1983 by hanging around the helicopter base, doing odd jobs and getting to know the staff.

"I helped out the crew and I loved being around the helicopter," he says.

After several years he was invited to train to be a crew member, and later to work the winch and learn other rescue skills -- all still on a voluntary basis.

"It takes quite a while to progress to being even a winch operator but being a police officer helped," he says. "In the meantime, about 1990, I decided I wanted to fly."

Frost spent about $50,000 of his own money getting his fixed-wing plane licence, then his helicopter licence.

In 1997, his big break came. A former boss at CareFlight in Queensland who had moved on to Telstra ChildFlight in Sydney hired a new helicopter co-pilot. When he didn't work out in the job, he called Frost.

"I got a phone call on a Thursday to say I started on the next Tuesday," Frost says. "I had a police house and the police dogs so I was pretty well set up in Queensland, and to leave all that and come to Sydney on half the pay was a huge struggle. I had to go home and say to my wife: 'Guess what?"'

Captain Frost has moved through the ranks to be a pilot, as well as taking on the role of operations manager.

He has also gained more qualifications, including an airline transport pilot's licence (similar to a jumbo pilot), a night rating, a command instrument rating and a multi-engine helicopter endorsement.

Telstra ChildFlight, which is the world's first inter-hospital retrieval service dedicated to babies and children, is also the only such service in Australia to fly with two pilots for added safety.

Frost flies either of the service's two modified helicopters -- ChildFlight 1 or ChildFlight 11 -- which can stay in the air for up to four hours without refuelling.

The pilot's job involves working a 48-hour shift, then having four days off, then two days on standby.

While working his 48-hour shift, Frost lives on base. There is maintenance, preparation and paperwork to be done in addition to flying but the main emphasis is on being well-rested at all times in case a job comes up -- so the pace is relaxed between missions.

A complicated system ensures that if the flying team works more than a total of 10 hours within the shift, they are replaced by the standby team until they are rested.

Calls for the Telstra ChildFlight helicopter come through the NSW Newborn and Paediatric Emergency Transport Service (NETS). Most are for hospital-to-hospital transfers but Telstra ChildFlight also backs up other emergency services and attends searches and accidents when needed.

Telstra ChildFlight is based at Westmead Hospital but can fly patients to any of the 10 hospitals in Sydney, Newcastle and Canberra which are equipped to treat severely ill children.

"The best part of my job is knowing that I'm helping people, that my job does make a difference to people for the better -- although it doesn't always happen that way," he says.

He says he is fairly resilient to the emotional stress that comes with helping sick -- and sometimes fatally ill -- children but it is impossible not to get involved in some cases.

Frost says very few pilots work their way up through volunteer positions as he did.

Nevertheless, he says people who dream of flying should take heart from the fact that anything is possible. "When I started learning to fly in my early 30s all the ex-military guys said I was too old and wouldn't make it," he says. "Now they're trying to hire me, so I had the last laugh."

High-flying opportunity

Jobs at Telstra ChildFlight and similar emergency services rarely come up and are generally offered to experienced and qualified pilots

Get a start in the industry by joining the armed forces or privately learning to fly a plane or helicopter

Telstra ChildFlight pilots earn about $85,000 although a proportion of this is salary sacrificed into superannuation

Checkout www.childflight.org.au

Story by Jo Roger, The Daily Telegraph, August 30, 2003.

[Jack Sprat]

How about this TQ: I know of a gentleman from GA who got into Freedom Air at the age of 62. Had some twin hours, not sure how many but around 500 - 1000 at a guess. He got to line, so whats the theory behind hours for age I wonder?

[agcatman]

Dont know if this helps but i had a Cathay interview for s/o at age 38 and with 3000 hrs.
Didnt get in but at least they were willing to look at me at that age and experience.
:}

[jimshutt]

Hi, I have been amazed at the age level that the average person is targeting as possibly getting past it. I can vouch for the fact that the medical is the only limiting factor.

When I was 50 people said that I was too old to try for a Commercial Licence.

When I reached 55 people said that I would never make the Instrument Rating.

When I reached 62 with 3000hrs power I got a job flying a 737/300- believe it or not I couldnt handle the culture.

Yesterday we returned back from Oz looking at the prospect of flying in the Ag scene where I discoverd the Flying Doctor option.

Most of the guys settled down after I told them that I was 67 and became quite supportive.

I also picked up a Super Duper 10 degree Driver from The Perth Pro shop sited under the Meyers building in The Mall. johnshutt

[questil]

I had a mid life crisis started at 28 just got into a fantastic regional with under 2000 hrs at 41. Coudnt support my finacial committments as a pilot on GA so always had to do a few jobs but it paid off in the end thank goodness.