ASTOR - Sentinel R mk 1

[TheSeeFarShadow]

Does anyone have details on when ASTOR is coming into service and what the services/trades/branches are going to make up the crew compliment?

[sprucemoose]

Shadow:

Sorry, can't help you with the crew breakdown, but the first aircraft will be delivered to the RAF next year, and the type will achieve its in-service date with 5 Sqn during 2005. The last aircraft will be handed over during '07.

[Runaway Gun]

Is there any weight limits on the aircrew for ASTOR? ;)

[Bright-Ling]

Runaway gun..

I am shocked at what you are saying. Are there really any fat people in the RAF?

:)

[Phoney Tony]

Key Sqn execs for 5 Sqn have apparently been identified, including the Boss. They will include a brown job, but I am not sure of his role. Suspect he may be ic the ground components.

WSO/ WSOps will be on the initial crews, again some have been identified and some are doing pre-employment training.

The current platform is already tending towards Max AUW so a slimmer crew will mean more rations, or maybe you will be allowed to take your luggage with you on the ac when proceeding on det.

[Runaway Gun]

Ahh Bright-Ling, You have brightened my day! I didn't mean fat, I should have said heavy. Muscle weighs twice as much as fat. I'm going to tell those caring Physical Training guys that they need glasses (and that their scales need recalibrating).

PT, a slimmer crew may mean more rations, but won't that mean that the ectomorph crew will slowly gain density? :p

[Magic Mushroom]

The Sentinel crew will consist of the following:

2 x Pilots. These will be RAF (with no AAC planned as far as I'm aware-correct me if I'm wrong) and have limited access to mission information (most likely a JTIDS display).

1 x Mission Controller (MC). This will initially be a commissioned WSO who will optimize the sensor and command the mission crew. Eventually some Ops Spt (Int) or even Army Int Corps Image Analysts (IA) may be allowed to upgrade to MC.

2 x IA. These will be a mix of SNCO WSOp, TG14 and Army Int Corps types responsible for SAR imagery interpretaion and MTI exploitation, particularly during 'off tether' ops.

1 x Airborne Collection Manager (ACM). I believe that there may be scope to put an additional commissioned Int type ACM on board. This seems to be primarily a sop to the Ops Spt (Int) types who want to get IntOs airborne. The ACM job appears to be undefined thus far, particularly has he has no console yet!!!

I understand that the primary personnel involved with the reformation of V (AC) Sqn as a Sentinel Sqn have been identified. Indeed, its first Boss will be an AEO with a Shackleton and E-3D surveillance and TD background. There will be Army on V Sqn with Int Corps on the aircraft and operating the Ground Stn's. However, the latter will come under the command of HQ Land despite being colocated at Waddington (in the words of the famous song, 'there may be trouble ahead' on that one!). Some of the groundcrew will also be REME. Ultimately, the RN will also probably become involved on the air platform. An interesting sqn to manage!!!

The ac is already weight critical, despite the AAR capability having been removed as a cost saving measure (I wonder how long that'll last!!!)!!! Indeed, there is even talk of the galley and crew rest area being removed to save weight!!!:{

Additionally, as the majority of guys involved in project definition were not ISTAR types, there are some unbelievable ommissions on the spec. This is because some Tornado mate didn't think it was possible to listen to more than a single intercom and radio at a time!

Nevertheless, I think ASTOR will be a capable and versatile machine which will add considerably to the UK's ISTAR capability. As even however, we now just need to get the Army and certain elements of the RAF to look beyond what it was designed to do to see it's true value.

Regards,
M2

[BEagle]

Was the AR capability really removed to save cost? A little bird told me that it had been removed as the installation would destabilise the ac (which already had poorer lateral stability characteristics due to the external fittings added to the basic airframe) to an unacceptable extent.

6 PoB and it's already weight critical...?? Hmmm.......

[The Gorilla]

Oh Yes!!

A wonderful addition to our home defence Air Farce!! Just like the long awaited Typhoon!!

What a waste of cash!!!

:yuk:

[FFP]

Runaway,

Don`t you go worrying about ASTOR fella ! You've got fuel systems, autopilots and hyd systems on bigger things first ;)

[Magic Mushroom]

Beagle,
The AAR was, I understand, removed to enable the pongoes to purchase more equipment for the ASTOR ground segment. This was done on the basis that the ac met its specified endurance even with all the extra kit on. This is all well and good until you have to operate the ac from wet runways with crosswinds, or in hot and high conditions where a max fuel load is not possible.

Gorilla,
I hope that I never become as sad and cynical as you.
Regards,
M2

[Dan Winterland]

Er, why not buy a bigger aircraft to put the kit in. Or am I being simple. :confused:

[The Gorilla]

Magic

Please!! Sad and cynical??

No, not me. I am just a realist who has seen the writing on the wall!!

Sentinel - An airframe pushed beyond its limits to the point its crew can't be over a certain weight.

Typhoon - Specifically designed for a threat scenario that doesn't exit.

:ok:

[BEagle]

Indeed, Dan!

Something like an A319ACJ, perhaps. True that it can only make about FL380 at MTOW and isn't as quick as the Globalame Excuse, but a much more suitable airframe, surely...

"The ACJ, a longer-range version of the A319, can fly as far as 6,000 nm/11,100 km with 12 passengers on board"

Or if that isn't enough, maybe an A320/321 long range derivative?


....and the pilots could be dual-certificated for the A330-200 tanker!

[rustybh]

That additional lift up to a potential FL490 sure gives you a large increase in your SAR/MTI swath, and therefore a sizeable increase in your distance from the FEBA and those nasty ground threats.:eek:

[glider insider]

i had heard a rumour that the air forces spare (??!!) navs were gonna be the back seat boys in ASTOR due to their experience in systems management etc ...

perhaps this was planned when the tornados were all to be scrapped and there would be lots of aircrew sitting around doing nothing....

but like all rumours, prob started when x told y that z was pregnant...

[Magic Mushroom]

Beagle,
As rustybh points out, it is a severe limitation on a ground surveillance platform to be orbitting at 380 rather than 450+. Having flown on the E-8C, the JSTARS is extremely limited by terrain shadow at the levels it operates at. In places such as Kosovo and Afghanistan, it was orbitting rather close to its targets! Placing such a sensor on an airliner in the class of the A319 or A320 would be a mistake.

NATO is considering placing their AGS RTIP on an A321 and it will be a mistake. The GX will give far better coverage, notwithstanding its limitations, and the USAF are considering augmenting their E-8 fleet with an ASTOR type jet.

If we were going to have gone for the best option, with a bit more foresight and faith in technology, we should have brought Glabal Hawk as the air platform for ASTOR. Operating altitudes of FL 550+, massive endurance, data link commonality with the Spams and loads of growth potential.

Hopefully, we'll get a few to replace the dear old Canberra PR9 when that goes later this decade.

GI,
I suspect that there will be some FJ guys on ASTOR (a cosmoplitan crew mix a la E-3D is a good thing), however it's mission, CONOPS and sensor management is more similar to that of the E-3D, Nimrod R1 and MR2 than a Tornado. Indeed, PMA are currently saying that E-3D and/or Nimrod experience is desireable for an ASTOR slot, and most of the IPT guys are ex E-3D types. It was a Tornado guy who was repsonsible for the ASTOR comms system. As a result, it has some comms limitations that need sorting!
Regards,
M2

[Ally Minium]

As rustybh points out, it is a severe limitation on a ground surveillance platform to be orbitting at 380 rather than 450+. Having flown on the E-8C, the JSTARS is extremely limited by terrain shadow at the levels it operates at. In places such as Kosovo and Afghanistan, it was orbitting rather close to its targets! Placing such a sensor on an airliner in the class of the A319 or A320 would be a mistake.

..so use a Gulfstream then!

[BEagle]

High altitude capability would thus appear to be an essential criterion. Since few airliners can get that high, it seems that Globalame Excuse or Gulfstream V were the only real choices outside the UAV route.....

.....or perhaps a new Vulcan with a larger cabin and no bomb bay, conformal sensors etc? But no, we can't afford to develop our own aeroplanes these days, so an overweight, draggy bizjet seems the only soultion.

[Gainesy]

Out of interest, at what heights did the Victor SRs operate? Seem to remember a recruiting blurb about 4 Victors mapping the whole Med in one hour, or four hours....or something.

[Magic Mushroom]

Ally Minium,
..so use a Gulfstream then!
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. The Gulfstream V was the the platform of choice for the 2 unsuccessful ASTOR bids. However, the GV's cabin capacity is even more limited than the GX, resulting in a very strange ergonomic design for the mission crew consoles due to the smaller cabin diameter. Additionally, I'm led to believe that the GX aft fuselage construction is more suitable for the ASTOR mods.

Beagle,
Yes, altitude is essential for the ASTOR mission which does indeed limit the choice pretty a U-2/Mystic, Global Express, Gulfstream IVSP or V, or a UAV such as the Global Hawk.

You will note that military Bizjet variants based on the GV and GX have also been procured by Sweden and Israel for SIGINT.

However, you are quite correct to look back ruefully at what a Vulcan or Victor could have done in the role. I wonder how we'd be using the Vulcan now if we'd re-sparred them, put new avionics in them, and hung some EPW or JDAMs inside!!!

Regards,
M2

[Megaton]

In reply to one of the earlier posts, Army personnel identified for the Sqn have already started to arrive at Waddington.

[Phoney Tony]

The debate on who should man the ASTOR should be a short one:

The aircraft requires sensor operators, communicators, analysts and sensor managers/ mission commanders.

We have an aircrew branch that has been doing these tasks for many years they are now called NCA - WSOp. The officer branch previously known as AEOs are now subsumed into the WSO have a proven record as sensor managers and mission commanders.

[The Gorilla]

Yeah Right!!!

:ooh:

[hooley]

Folks

I've read this thread - and other ASTOR threads over the past few months with a lot of interest - and, at times, have been amazed at those that have made uniformed and 'off-the-wall' comments regarding the ASTOR programme. It prompted me to register on PPRUNE and make my first post because it's difficult to read inaccurate comments without wanting to redress the balance. To be frank, it really isn't in my gift to do that, though if people have legitimate queries I'd be happy to try to answer them - or point you in the direction of someone that could if I don't know the answer myself. That said, however, and speaking as someone that is actually involved with the ASTOR programme, I would like to offer you my opinion on the system as a whole. Take this for what it is - an opinion, but a well-informed opinion. I truly believe that the UK is getting one of the best (if not the best) systems of its kind in the world and everyone, contractors and customers alike, is working very hard to bring the system in on time with 100% utility. It's important to remember, however, that the ASTOR system is still in integration, so if you hear on the grapevine that there are areas that need work, it should come as no surprise to also hear that there are many dedicated people currently working to resolve the issue. For an operator to say that the system will be as good as it can get (given today's technologies) is unprecedented - we always want it to be a bit better here and bit more capable there - but I'm sold on the system and I think it's going to an outstanding addition to the UK's inventory.

Lastly, Gorilla - if, as you say, you have 'seen the writing on the wall' regarding ASTOR, I'm afraid you've been looking at the wrong wall.

[In Tor Wot]

Sorry Hooley, but although I thoroughly concur that there are a great many dedicated people working their bits off to make this work I'm afraid I have to agree that the writing has been on the wall for ASTOR for quite some time.

In short this was a J-STARS minus and should have been recognised as such rather than trying to kid everyone that by dint of it's ability to fly higher than the E-8, it was, in fact, something better.

I agree that there is a great deal of misinformation out there but the reality is that in a very short period of time (next 6-12 months) the long-wing Global Hawk will provide the capability of J-STARS, RAPTOR and NSTR Sqn (PR9) for a unit cost of $55m and a ground system/comms network which has cost the US $370m. Compared to the cost of ASTOR, the (constant) extension to PR9 and the diabolical cost of RAPTOR (total £1.1bn over last 4 yrs) the UK would have saved a small fortune by buying 20 GH and the associated ground/comms systems (cost approx £980m). In addition, we may have been able to bring something more usefull to the fight over the last few months other than a ‘niche’ capability.

Unfortunately we have decided on the ASTOR/PR9/GR4A route and must live with it and try to get the best from it, but the myopic acquisition process should not have put us/you in this position to start with.

Have a look at http://fas.org/irp/program/collect/global_hawk.htm for the basic outline and http://defence-data.com/index2/page17366.htm for what they are paying for this capability.

[Phoney Tony]

In Tor Wot

The ASTOR will work because we have RAF operators who have a history of making crap kit work.

BW issues will always be an issue with any ISTAR asset, however, having intelligent operator prioritising the collection and distribution will win out. This has been proved on other platforms, moreover GH requires a massive amount of BW.

Integration and onward dissemination are issues Global Hawk would not cure.

[The Gorilla]

Hooley

You have taken me out of context.

ASTOR is most certainly coming in. God knows I have watched the buildings go up and seen the beer calls of the guys off on their hols to the states. However, within a few short months you will have a new Secretary of State for Defence. Along with a whole host of new senior mandarins in the MOD. Possibly even a new PM!!

Additionally there are some serious defence budget cuts looming.
Iraq has to be paid for somehow.

On paper ASTOR will as ever, look marvellous. The reality as we all know, will be completely different.

I will return to this thread at Christmas to see how my prophecies turn out and yes!! I have £20 on Newcastle to win the Premier League as well!!!!
:8

[PPRuNe Pop]

After receiving a comm that some comments on this thread might be "pushing the bounds of security" I have made some minor amendments under advisement from a serving officer. They do not detract from the subject matter - but we do have to be sure that certain boundaries are not crossed.

Please continue the discussion.


PPP

[FFP]

A couple of weeks behind here, but 1 Apr saw V Sqn at Waddington reform. Any idea when they expect aircraft to arrive and if crews have been nominated yet ?

[f4aviation]

http://www.airsceneuk.force9.co.uk/Hangar/2004/5sq/5sq.htm