Unusually Fair TV Documentary??!!

[View From The Ground]

Just watched Crowded Skies on BBC2. Although it contained all the usual heart tugging images, RIP to those involved, I was suprised and pleased that instead of jumping on the blame the ATC Controller bandwagon, they seemed to take account of the multiple factors that appear to have combined to cause the Lake Constance tragedy.

An unusually balanced piece of journalism well done to all those involved

[tony draper]

I agree, as a outsider I found it very informative, I did think the interviews with the understandably angry relatives a bit gratuitous and unnecessary though, although that seems to be par for the course in documentries now, they have to add some emotional content and drama.

[Random Electron]

Agreed, a good bit of work.
Poor sod, the Danish ATCO, doing the best he could I'm sure.
The lesson is I think, follow that TCAS command, always.

[nooluv]

Watching this program brings back the question?
Do you obey ATC or TCAS?
I know it's not that simple, but what would you have done?

[Kalium Chloride]

Good journalism takes into account all sides of a story. In this event, that also included victims.

I don't think it's our place to speak on behalf of the people who were caught up in this tragedy and assume that they didn't want to express their own feelings. They might have welcomed the chance.

To suggest that they're only included for gratuitous reasons is, I think, unfair on the programme-maker (who did a good job on this story) and -- more importantly -- patronising to the relatives.

[tony draper]

You may be right Kalium I just thought it added nothing to the documentry, nor did the reconstructed scenes of the children running around in Moscow,I am a bit old fashioned I want a documentry to cover and explore the facts,to inform us, these added parts are not documentry, they are drama added for emotional effect.

[Wizofoz]

nooluv,

It IS and HAS TO BE that simple...TCAS, always!

[Idunno]

Absolutely!! I thought everyone had copped on by now.

For Gods sake...FOLLOW THE TCAS...everyone!!!

[Aviation Trainer too]

Follow TCAS and tell ATC (and me in the other Aircraft!!!) what you are doing!!

Agree on the good quality of the documentary.

[Meeb]

But they might have hired a 757 sim for the reconstruction! First time I have seen a 4 engined 75... but a good docu, agreed.

[regor]

Good point Meeb, I wondered why they only showed the TCAS warning on the IVSI and not on the EADI!

I agree that TCAS should take precedence, but is this decision purely at the discretion of the Captain, company SOP's or ANO's?

The documentary never actually stated what, if any, is the legal requirement in this scenario.

Although a good documentary, I felt that it was pure speculation about the conflict between the Russian Captain and the Instructor doing his line check.

[Onions]

Regor

"Although a good documentary, I felt that it was pure speculation about the conflict between the Russian Captain and the Instructor doing his line check."

I thought that that was recorded on the CVR. If so where's the speculation? Not picking a fight or nothing but did I misunderstand what was said?

Anyone?

[Tinstaafl]

A factual presentation that ignored significant items, spoiled by melodramatic gimmicks.

[Arkady]

What significant items?

[Paterbrat]

Certainly a brief commentry from Tinstaafl, care to illuminate us a bit more?

I thought it was pretty reasonable, covered most points, and certainly up to the quality of the previous one on the Milan runway incursion.

[BigEndBob]

Can anybody answer this question..

If the two aircraft were as shown on the radar screen should the ATCO have known that the russian aircraft might be given a tacs climb command and the other aircraft a descent based on their headings.
Is tcas command based on headings? does it use some kind of quadrantal rule? or some complex calcs based on rate of climb, speed, etc.:confused:

[PushingTin111]

Well, from my understanding of TCAS, depending on the current air situation, both transponders converse on an appropriate course of action and that is then relayed to the pilots via the TCAS. First a TA, Traffic Alert and finally an RA, Resolution Advisory if needs be. In this case both aircraft were in level flight so I guess a compromise would have been reached between both Transponders maybe taking into account the speed of both aircraft and the wind speed and direction. Generally time to impact is the deciding factor on when a TA and RA are given. Headings don't directly influence whether or not an aircraft should climb or descend.

The one question I'd like to ask is this......Would it not be a good idea if the on-board computer automatically engages a climb or descent on receipt of an RA? Would this not take out the possibility of human error, ie whether to follow TCAS or ATC. If an RA is given the autopilot should override any human induced climb or descent until such time the conflict has resolved. Obviously, the TCAS would take into consideration other aircraft. But that should be no different to the way TCAS works now. At least then, I think the possibility of something like Lake Constance happening again would almost virtually be unthinkable. Humans are very prone to suggestion. This means that only a slight suggestion will impact your decision process. ie will I follow my TCAS or do what ATC told me. I think it just might work.

Any comments.....??

By the way the program was top class. Well done to the BBC.

[BIG E]

Is it common practice to disregard the semi-circular ruling?Or is it not practical?

[Hwel]

Um good reason for not giving tcas automatic control, descend RA at 500' on departure. commanding over 2000 fpm descent, so like all things not without its faults. Still a great piece of kit

[jack-oh]

Forgive me for being a naive ATCO but if TCAS did not exist, the accident at Lake Constance may not have happened! The Russian ac would have descended and the DHL ac would have maintained its level. Equally, the programme touched upon a very near miss near Japan that was put down to TCAS. Given these occurrences have any studies been made of the incidents caused by TCAS rather than those that have been resolved by it. Are we all looking at the Emperors new clothes?

[Point Seven]

jack-oh

You what?!

The problem was that the TCAS was not followed. TCAS is not somekind of evil invention that causes accidents, it prevents them. The programme didn't say how many accidents have been prevented due to TCAS did it? It was merely highlighting something that everyone has been saying for a while now, that is that the action in the event of RAs being given has to be standardised across the aviation community. Either you follow it (which most of us prefer) or you don't but this silly situation where some do and some don't negates the benefits of TCAS and may contribute to accidents.

I bet if you asked most pilots, they would rather fly with TCAS than without it especially in busy TMAs around the world.

As traffic levels increase and controllers are working at full capacity for longer periods of time, then I welcome ANY system that can help out and be a second set of eyes in level busts or accident scenarios.

P7

And there was some footage of the mighty P7 on the programme as well. Looking good. Not :\

[lloyd christmas]

Point Seven with his binoculars out. Must have been a busload of Virgin hosties arriving at the Queens Building!! :8

[Octopussy1]

Um, as a mere pax, forgive my ignorance, but some of the posts on this thread suggest that there is no fixed "rule" and that it is at the discretion of the pilots whether they follow TCAS or the ATC.

Have I got that right? or is it the case that some airlines have a policy that says "follow TCAS whatever" and others don't?

Seems to me (in my v humble opinion) that until there is a worldwide, binding protocol that everyone follows, there is endless scope for these sorts of accidents happening again, because it's a lottery whether TCAS will be followed

any comments?

[fatboy slim]

Octopussy - I think I can clear this one up. When TCAS was first introduced most carriers had a line in the ops manual along the lines of TCAS RAs must be followed unless the aircraft is VMC, in visual contact with the other one and the Commander deems it safe to manouver clear, or something along those lines. After the JAL incident then the German one, this has been removed to read TCAS RAs must be followed.I hope the guy who posted on the first page (what would you do??) was not a pro pilot because it is so important that EVERYONE follows the RA.

All of us who fly at high alts and speeds can testitify that spotting other a/c is difficult and sometimes confusing - they often look higher or lower than they actually are.

So in answer to your question - there is a common protocol, it just needs everyone to stick to it.

Edited for typos

[Octopussy1]

Thanks for the explanation, Slim - I feel better now!

[TopBunk]

Point 7

TCAS is not somekind of evil invention that causes accidents, it prevents them
In principle you are of course correct, and I would not like to go back to pre-TCAS days in these days of increasingly crowded skies .... but .... TCAS very nearly did cause a crash about 5 years ago between a BA747 en-route to HKG and an opposite direction KAL747-200. Basically, the KAL747 had an analogus to digital covertor from the altimeter to TCAS input with a bent pin which incorrectly encoded the altitude to the same level as the BA 747-400. To cut to the chase the TCAS system of the KAL commanded them to climb straight towards the BA 747 which was 2000ft above and they passed at the same altitude about 170metres apart. I'm sure the CAA website will have some details.

[Point Seven]

Top Bunk


Point taken, but as i understand the incident, wasn't it due to defective equipment as opposed to a flaw in TCAS?

P7

[fmgc]

There is no grey area, there is not room for debate, there is no question:

FOLLOW THE TCAS RA IN ALL INSTANCES!

Those are the rules, anybody flying airliners should know this. If they don't then get them out of the sky NOW.

[nooluv]

Fatboy Slim! we are all safe! I'm not a Pro Pilot. (what would you do). I just couldn't figure why the russian pilot did'nt follow TCAS
RA if everybody knows what to do! that's why I asked the question?

[FougaMagister]

I agree, a good bit of documentary - obviously, someone in the BBC production dept. has made the effort to read the German AAIB's inquiry report. All that was on the TV program was mentionned in that report.

P.S.: as far back as ATPL ground school, we get told to ALWAYS follow TCAS instructions - even if ATC says otherwise.

[Point Seven]

Pretty sure that in the future, the data block on the radar could use Mode S information to display the TCAS RAs of aircraft so that controllers need never give an instruction that contravenes an RA, reducing the chances of something like this happening.

P7