View Full Version : What? No Flaps!

Man Flex
15th Aug 2003, 19:10
So what happens to a Virgin crew when they forget to set flap for take-off and subsequently have to abort after the config. warning has sounded leading to another aircraft having to go-around? Even more interesting is the subsequent take-off from it's new starting position some 400 metres further down the runway with "full-power if that's OK with you" on a calm, hot day and I suspect a limiting runway (3200mts). No location given(trying to save someones blushes) but suffice to say it happened earlier this week.

15th Aug 2003, 20:11
There by the grace of god go we all.....

edited cos I'm dim and kant speil.

15th Aug 2003, 20:55
Bring back the flight engineers!

15th Aug 2003, 21:18
it`s not just the FE that can read a checklist!

16th Aug 2003, 09:13
Well, 'tis a bit better than a KE B747, on having forgotten the flaps altogether, then selected same on the roll.....then again, maybe not:sad:

16th Aug 2003, 14:41
Ooops! :O You just cannot keep anything quiet on here can you?

16th Aug 2003, 16:15
"Question" Whats V1 for a flapless take-off for a BAE146 ???

16th Aug 2003, 20:01
The 146-300 numbers for a flapless were tried by a Far Eastern crew and they found out that the field was not long enough and wrote it off!! The next day BAE got a message from the airline asking what the figures were for a flapless T/O? Not a mention of the noise that was sounding all the way down the runway??

There have been several attempts, all stopped by the "config' warning" for the Canadair CRJ. It was then tried in the simulator and at max weight and cool temp' it took over 9000ft before it would rotate and then flew like 'milking a mouse" in ground effect before getting enough speed!!

The best one I came across, and I was in line behind it, was a DC-10 at LHR that was cleared for immediate T/O and rapidly aborted. They then said "sorry we forgot to start the number 2 engine" with an Eastern Mediteranean accent.

But then check lists are written by fools for fools and most of us have been there, or very close, if we were honest. The Config' Warning must have save many?

16th Aug 2003, 20:28
Recently had a problem with the config. warning CB popping out just before or during T/O which would not reset.
I hope the engineer who subsequently tried to convince me that it was alright to fly as 'we can see for ourselves that we are in the right config.' reads this thread and learns something. :mad:

It's a shame you always get one w*****r in a bunch of mostly excellent engineers.:yuk:

Just for the record - after 2 cancelled flights and many ours later it was fixed and back in the air.


16th Aug 2003, 21:27
There are ground engineers and engineers. The biggest mistake I ever made in my flying career, was to accept an airplane out of Brussels which caused a dump of 68,000 kgs of fuel to come back and land due to their complete [email protected] up. Never trusted them since, the buck stops with you! However , we got an apologie but I'm not sure if they paid us for the gas.?

16th Aug 2003, 22:08
Thanks Speedy. I was more interested in a -200 completely empty (no interior,seats etc..)

16th Aug 2003, 23:17
PJ 2

When we operated the 737-200 one of our Captains always ran the stab trim out of T/O range while on the threshold ready for T/O and this was after everything had been set for T/O.

Good job for him that the horn or system never failed cus he may just have forgoten to put the stab trim back into the T/O range after some distraction.

On the early 737-200's, T/O config warning came off the throttle S/W's and on the latter model off the EPR. This particular Captain never knew which model he was on cus he frequently snagged the things.

Takes all sorts I guess.;)

17th Aug 2003, 06:38
In response to "Fruitloop" to give you some idea try looking at the flapless landing speed. I do not have access to the numbers right now but the last flapless I did had a minimum of 172kts!! So with enough concrete and ignoring the warning it could be done. Please don't invite me before or afterwards.
The tire speeds are in in the region of 190MPH so you would probably exceed those as well, but at that stage who would care?
I guess I should ask, WHY, are you flying one with no seats or interior?

17th Aug 2003, 07:58
Ta Speedy.The reason I ask is I've heard a "rumour" that 1 was relocated with a "US" flap system.!!

Capt Homesick
17th Aug 2003, 09:30
Relocating with an unservicable flap system: it's been a few years since I was 146-current, but as I recall there are 2 systems driving the flaps. With one system inop, the flaps will still travel, and all settings are available; the flaps will travel at half speed however.
If the above is inaccurate, please forgive me and blame it on the intervening years!

17th Aug 2003, 15:55
taxi back and try again

17th Aug 2003, 17:43
The only jet (that I know of) that can do a 0 flap take off.
I heard of a F-100 in the States that was on the roll when a deadheading crew from another type undid his seat belt ran screaming at the top of his voice 'you've got no flaps' After the abort or T/off (depending which version you hear) the response from the crew was 'yes we know'

17th Aug 2003, 19:07
Capt Homesick.
Yep correct if a hydraulic failure of either system.The prob in the case I heard about was a safety lane failure and so "zero" flaps available.

17th Aug 2003, 20:35
One of the standard pre take off items on the bus is to push the "T.O CONFIG" push button on the ECAM Control Panel. This simulates the setting of take-off and will bring up a Warning (W) or Caution (C) for the following.

1. Slat/Flaps not in T/O config (W) i.e. at zero, not the CORRECT setting.
2. Pitch trim out of range (W)
3. Rud Trim out of range (W)
4. Speed Brakes not retracted (W)
5. Side stick fault (W)
6. Brakes Hot (C)
7. Door not closed (C!)
8. Park Brake on (W) - only on application of actual T/O power
9. Flex temp not set (C) - only on application of actual T/O power

When this button is pushed the T.O CONFIG on the ECAM Memo changes from Blue to Green. The before take off check list has an item " T/O Memo" the response to which (after looking at it!) should be "T/O, no blue" - this confirms that the T/O Config has been pushed and the above checks completed.

Seems like this crew missed that line of the checklist, but the "belt and braces" approach of the bus warned them anyway.

There but for the grace..................

A4 :)