Class F advisory routes

[PH-UKU]

Greetings folks - seeking your professional views on Advisory Routes. I will declare an interest - I control lots and lots of civil aircraft on these routes and spend an inordinate amount of time passing avoiding action and generally ****ting my pants as fast jets wheech around in ever decreasing unpredictable circles. With B737s, Emb 145s doing 430kts plus it is well nigh impossible to predict and provide safe avoidance on manouevring high energy jets.

So, my questions. How many of you stay clear of these routes ? How many don't regard them at all? How many seek a radar service before crossing ? How many of you are aware that we are trying to avoid you by 5 miles, but that planning for that starts when you are 20 miles away ?

To put a different slant on it. Legally Joe Bloggs in his Cessna doesn't have to recognise the 5 mile MATZ round your home base (he only has to recognise the 2.5 mile ATZ), but would you consider it irresponsible of him to go fly in your MATZ without speaking to ATC ? That's the way I view Advisory Routes.

Grateful for your comments.

[WhichWay?]

Just to play devil's advocate, if they are that busy why are they advisory?

If you mean the route south-bound out of Inverness, it is getting very busy and really should be a 'full-time' airway.

WW

[SirToppamHat]

PH-UKU

It may help other readers to visit the following site for clarification of the different classes of airspace in the UK:

CLASSES OF UK AIRSPACE (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/ATS_Classifications.pdf)

I presume the routes to which you primarily refer are those which link the 'minor' civilian aerodromes (Aberdeen/ Newcastle/ Teesside/ Norwich) up and down the east coast of the UK? I was not aware that they had a different classification from the overall Class G.

As a military controller, I am concerned with the east coast routes; in particular, Operational Trg Area (OTA) C to the north of Newcastle is bisected by the Aberdeen-Newcastle/Teesside link route.

Notwithstanding the formation of the Southern and Central Managed Danger Areas (MDAs), clearly there continues to be a requirement for military aircrews to practise tactical flying overland. This flying is not restricted to low-level work, but also involves air-to-air practice engagements at medium and low level.

In addition, the move of 56 Sqn to Leuchars has undoubtedly increased the volume of activity immediately to the east of the airfield, between the coast and western edge of the Central MDAs (the so-called 'stubs').

From a personal perspective, I can assure you that potentially conflicting traffic is always called-in to crews iaw the service they are under (usually RIS/FIS). Where particularly complex sorties are planned, I endeavour to let the civilian controllers know in advance, but it is not always possible, neither are they always terribly interested. Subsequently, I will try to push activity to one side (usually the west in OTA C) of the link route, but the military crews often require a degree of tactical freedom which precludes the maintenance of standard separation against other air traffic. If undertaking ACT, I will use a 'KNOCK-IT-OFF' call if I consider FS is at risk.

I have often seen ac descending into Newcastle straight towards a turning fight, even when apparently under RAS - I too would be bothered about this in your shoes; clearly the commercial imperative requires timetables to be kept to!

I have heard it suggested that the option always exists for the 'B737s, Emb 145s doing 430kts plus' to route via the airways structure, but that ignores the fact that not all the aerodromes are linked by airways. I also think it would be naiive to expect Class G to be avoided by commercial traffic simply because it is being used by military traffic.

At the end of the day, I suspect most FJ aircrew will seek a radar service only in IMC, and that this will be in response to the met rather than the requirement to cross or operate within Class F/G airspace. I await, with interest, the responses of my breveted colleagues.

Edited in the interests of clarity!

[16 blades]

We, or rather I, would ALWAYS seek some sort of radar service when operating in an area where potential conflicts exist, regardless of in-flight conditions. I would be very surprised if any of my collegues would not. Even if it's only RIS. Airmanship demands that you maintain good SA whatever you are doing, and we ALWAYS pay attention to areas like advisory routes where we may encounter civ traffic in open FIR. One would be very foolish not to. If you are doing ACT or (for us heavies) FE / Affil, the easy solution is to vector the civ traffic out of OUR way - or don't they know how to do turns? I have little sympathy with GAT who complain about co-ord / separation issues when taking 'shortcuts' for commercial purposes.

[PH-UKU]

The routes I am referring to are the Class F Advisory Routes (ADRs) north of Glasgow to Inverness, Sumburgh, Wick, Stornoway, Benbecula and Tiree (W3D, N573D, A1d etc..). It's not Class G, and there is no controlled airspace - hence no alternative route.

[SirToppamHat] -
Thanks for your considered response - the 'routes' from Aberdeen to NEW are Class G airspace (open FIR) below FL245 (there is an upper air route, but EastFlight Jetstreams can't get that high;) ). So, as such there is no recognised route - they are under a RIS which is why if you are trying to co-ord with Tay all we can do is 'call you in'. Quite often an inordinate amount of time is spent speaking/trying to connect to Neatishead controllers when (no disrespect) it is actually a waste of time because no co-ordination or level restrictions can be effected anyway. If we sound disinterested it's because we may have another 10ac on freq (see below) and 2 phone lines ringing, and REALLY cannot afford the loooong time connecting/waiting for ('Allocator'/'Asst Fighter Marshal'/'standby for controller' etc..) to be told you're on a RIS/FIS anyway. I am only interested if you can effect a specific level co-ordination - and QUICKLY. After all the EastFlights are always on a RIS and are the lowest of my priorities. I cannot speak for Tyne sector further east on the upper air routes.

Just so you know, we are not permitted to give Radar Advisory Service in the open FIR (we can only give it ON an Advisory Route)

[16Blades]
I appreciate that some crews are extremely diligent in avoiding or crossing ADRs under radar service (thanks :ok: ), but it is a lottery - especially if they are being 'controlled' by AWACS. It is not impossible for civvy jets to turn, but at 400 kts or so they are nor designed for F3 manouevrability. It is also impossible to second guess where the conflictors are going. You turn left, they turn left. You go right they go right. Trying to avoid their unpredictability is impossible, bear in mind that I am trying to do this 20-25 miles (2-3 minutes) away to avoid giving a screaming Jesus 60 deg avoiding action turn. Doing a hard avoiding action turn with 150 passengers down the back and hostesses walking the aisles is not for the faint hearted - it is only a matter of time before a passenger or crew member gets bounced around and injured and then starts sueing. So, who do they sue ? The pilot for turning ? The controller for giving the turn ? The fast jets for being in the ADR ? CAA for not upgrading the airspace ? Descendants of the Wright Brothers' for inventing the things in the first place ? I feel a can of worms coming on.

Only yesterday I had the irony of taking avoiding action 3 times on 2xF3s from Leuchars who were manoeuvring across, under, through W3D at RANOK. Bear in mind also that as well as that I may also be controlling 4 or 5 ac climbing in/out of Aberdeen, 4 or 5 round NEW going NW/SE into/out of Scottish TMA or SW/NE into/out of Manchester, AND the inevitable tribe of EastFlights on a RIS trundling up and down between Aberdeen and NEW. Oh, as well as the others in and out of Inverness and Dundee. It is not unknown to be working 12 or more under positive control. Why not come over and see for yourselves ?

Anyway, 10 mins later Scottish Mil are requesting the Leuchars Corridor (FL65-FL120) on P600 (Class A airspace southwest of Aberdeen) for those self same F3s. Happy to oblige :rolleyes: (but aware of the supreme irony) I stop off descents at FL130 and expedite departures over the top as I know they are probably short of fuel and looking for a quick recovery.

I doubt they are aware of the mayhem they caused 10 minutes earlier. :hmm:

I also understand that Leuchars have the ADRs well marked on their charts, and that it is recommended that crews only cross under a radar service - any truth in that ?

Can anyone at Leuchars or Lossie give me their views ?

[contact_tower]

on P600 (Class A airspace southwest of Aberdeen)

P600 surely is a long AW, it runs trough "my" TMA, and I work at 69 degrees N! :p

[16 blades]

PHUK,

You raised some good points there. I feel the answer, as you partially alluded to, would be to upgrade the airspace if it really is that busy. I guess, like our world, it's a cost issue above all else. Then again, they did it to the old NRASA routes into Teesside & Newcastle, so why not further up north? These routes are only going to get busier in the future I suspect.

Having read ICAO ch11 again (god-awful document), it does mention the relative lack of Civ manoeuverability and that Mil traffic should avoid scaring them if possible, so I will eat one or two of my whinges!! Having said that, though, we do need ALOT of airspace in order to get our essential trg done, and that is one luxury in short supply in the UK - compare this to The Nellis ranges stateside, which are about the size of the London FIR!

If it does sound like I constantly moan about these types of issue, I apologise. I just feel that any more restrictions on what we do and where we can do it will start to seriously compromise our operational effectiveness - our trg budgets / hours have already been cut to the bone - and all for the sake of some minor GAT operator's commercial convenience.

[BEagle]

Quite so!

But at least the boringly slow little airliners in Class F rat runs make good practice targets. Like shooting rats in a barrel....
















......no of course I'm not serious!

[PH-UKU]

However, even a boringly slow SAAB can get higher than an F3 :E

[SirToppamHat]

Fair comment PH-UKU. Perhaps when their new kit comes in you won't have to wait such a 'loooong' time to get to the actual controller at Neatishead/Boulmer.

I apologise if I misconstrued your initial post, and have amended my own reply to clarify ... alcohol had been imbibed! I tend not to work too much in the specific areas to which you refer, except for the odd transit and occasional foray into OTA H!

I was NOT aware that you are not permitted to offer RAS EXCEPT on Advisory routes! Mil controllers can offer RAS anywhere in Class G airspace - it seems a bit odd that we are operating to different rules when working in the same block of airspace!

Personally, I would rather see an airway proper than an advisory route (eg the NORCA) - at least with an airway you know where you stand! As long as the volume of traffic justifies it and its owners don't get too twitchy when we need to get traffic through.

Perhaps you could adopt a system of 'Managed Airways' - where the operators need to book their use at least 24 hrs in advance and for a given period and height block. If they don't need them, then you have to let us know in case we might want to; no, that would never work ....

[tonybliar]

PH-UKU - then perhaps the boringly slow SAAB pilot would be well advised to fly at his maximum height.

[PH-UKU]

Not exactly different rules - just we ain't allowed to give the more protective service. Our prime task is (supposedly) inside CAS - and when it's busy you can't realistically provide a proper RAS if you're working another 10 elsewhere. And it's not fair to give ac a RAS but then not give them full attention, too many pop-ups (=bloody F3s again:eek: )

I ain't actually advocating closing off the airspace and making it all CAS (as a flyer I actually think there's too much - particularly the HRA R610 - so much lovely countryside closed of to visitors from Europe:hmm:

I'd just like a more responsible attitude to the other airspace users - not too much to ask - after all we pay for the fuel etc ....:E

PS P600 starts at Dublin (53.30N) as class C and goes through Glasgow as class D, becomes class A and routes over Aberdeen, becoming advisory route P600D (class F) to Klonn. Fascinating :8

[Firestreak]

I'm with 16 Blades on this, I always try to get some sort of control, nomally RAS, wherever I am and this includes the area between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Inverness.

However, the other side of the coin is why do airliners routinely fly through military AIAAs? I spend an amount of time in the Yorkshire AIAA and am amazed by the number of airliners that regularly transit this airspace just at the heights that are used by the Tucanos. There is no real way the Tucanos can opertate under RIS/RAS whilst on an instructional trip, it can only be a matter of time before and airprox or worse happens. There are of course other military users in the AIAAs and they can be very busy, common sense should dictate that airliners don't rat run through these areas.

[NoseGunner]

A quick answer to some of your questions from a Leuchars operator:
Avoiding all the advisory routes in N Scotland (OTA H to us) would be totally impractical. However everyone should plan their sortie so that they don't CAP in the routes and preferably avoid a visual merge in them - although that can be a lot harder or impossible to plan.

In terms of radar service, the vast majority of the time we operate under an Air Defence Information Service - nearly a RIS, a fighter controller can probably tell you the difference.

I understand from several sources that the main N/S rote into and out of Inverness can be very busy - there could well be a case for making it an airway, possibly only at certain times.

PH-UKU, we do appreciate the rapid clearance through the Leuchars corridor- you're right about the fuel! Thanks.

ps didn't see a SAAB last time I was at FL500!(yes, in an F3)

[SirToppamHat]

Fair 'nuff PH-UKU - I appreciate the wider span of control might make offering of RAS to one ac out of several quite difficult, though this happens to us too and we also have to deal with pop-ups, including those climbing out of NEWC ;) !

Just to clarify on the subject of Air Defence Information Service (ADIS) and Air Defence Advisory Service (ADAS) alluded to by Nose Gunner:

In terms of radar service, the vast majority of the time we operate under an Air Defence Information Service - nearly a RIS, a fighter controller can probably tell you the difference.

I seem to remember this subject coming up before on the Site. Because we control ac in a large block of airspace, rather than a relatively restricted band, it may be that the crews need to be given 3 or 4 different services in one go, with the attendant time that this takes on check-in, especially for multiple groups of ac. A few years ago, it was decided to ease the volume of radio traffic. The following would be a typical check-in of 1993 for an ac coming into a given play area at FL160 requesting a RIS:

"Callsign identified Radar Information Service, cleared to operate in the block sea level to flight level 350. Service limited below 7000 feet, flight information service below 5000 feet, radar control above 245."

The modern equivalent would be:

"Callsign identified Air Defence Information Service 5000, cleared to operate in the block sea level to flight level 350."

The other elements (RC above 245, Lim RIS, FIS) are implicit, with the 5000 indicating the level below which the service will be a FIS. Similar situation exists for RAS/ADAS. Although this might not seem like a huge change, it all adds up. Incidentally, I believe the change was aircrew-driven.

As far as I am aware, the use of ADIS and ADAS only applies to HQ 1 Gp AD ac (ie F3s and 100 Sqn Hawks). We have to offer normal services to other ac, and, of course, there is no requirement to offer RC above 245 when in an active MDA.

[Avoiding Action]

NoseGunner,

Were you ballistic and descending for relight? :E :E

Don't bite - I'm not worth it;)

AA

[NoseGunner]

AA:

Pretty much and No (i hadn't dared to touch the throttles for the last 5 mins)!!!!
:D

Anyway, just wait until I get my Typhoon.... (falls off seat laughing);)

[Pontius Navigator]

I'm surprised the AD guys even know what Class F, or any other class come to that, is. Miss an ADR? How would they know? They only carry an airways map in case of a diversion somewhere.

Why dont they up the class of airspace? 'cause the flyboys wont let 'em.

[PH-UKU]

Take it the Mode C readout wasn't working then ;)

or was that in a Nanchang F3 :E

[NoseGunner]

PHUKU

What?
and
Pardon?

Maybe I'm getting dull in my old age (steady!)

FYI everyone has been to at least 50000 and most have been to M2+ in an F3 - usually a bent one with pylons and at least a 9L acqui on. You've got to do something in the Falklands!

[NorthSouth]

16 blades:we do need ALOT of airspace in order to get our essential trg done, and that is one luxury in short supply in the UK - compare this to The Nellis ranges stateside, which are about the size of the London FIR!
I love the way you military guys keep repeating this, presumably in the hope that it will become more true with repetition.
A few facts:
Highlands Restricted Area created 1981, prohibits civil access to the whole of NW Scotland 5 days a week
Borders Tactical Training Area doubled in size 1988. Volume of low flying halved since 1988 but TTA remains the same size.
LOTAs (now OTAs) created in the 1990s and expanded several times since then, now massively bigger and several more of them.
MDAs created earlier this year swallowing up vast tracts of the North Sea and beyond.
Leuchars radar corridor created to allow you through P600
Oh, and about the Nellis ranges - you have regular access to them too, as well as to the vast training areas at Goose Bay.

You also say any more restrictions on what we do and where we can do it will start to seriously compromise our operational effectiveness - our trg budgets / hours have already been cut to the bone which doesn't quite square with the need for more and more airspace.

Where are these restrictions you talk about?

PHUKU's original question about how military aircrew treat ADRs is an important one. It's not just about whether these ADRs are now busier, it's about whether they actually give any additional protection in practice. There are plenty cases of airproxes with military traffic crossing through ADRs. The question is not about "some minor GAT operator's commercial convenience" since the ADRs are the ONLY routes out of Inverness, Stornoway, Shetland etc. Most of the travelling public from these places are blissfully unaware that they are flying in airspace which military traffic might fly straight through.

[Bob Viking]

And we all know just how easy it is to pop across to Nellis, you know, when the weathers a bit iffy!!!

[NorthSouth]

All part of the 'operational effectiveness' equation though, init? The RAF has been training at Nellis regularly for several decades.

[Avoiding Action]

Northsouth,

Just to correct a couple of misconceptions,

Budgets have been severly curtailed in the last few years and trips to Nellis are not half as frequent as they used to be. The Yanks would love to have us, but the beancounters would rather waste money elsewhere:rolleyes:

Please don't confuse the requirement for a large amount of airspace with the volume of flying the military undertake. Yes the volume of flying has decreased, but the trg requirement is still there, and the boys have been using that trg more than ever overseas in the last 5 - 10 yrs. It doesn't matter whether you use the airspace 20 times a week or 100 times a week, it'll still be there. Now, if you're talking about a new system whereby airspace reverts to unrestricted Class G (or class F, or D, or whatever you want) when the military don't need it for trg, I'm with you totally:ok: However, if it's just another attempt to cover the UK with uncessary controlled airspace, then I'm afraid we'll be disagreeing...:ouch:

Finally, on a point of accuracy, the OTA systems are not restricted airspace in any way, merely a military demarcation for our own aircraft. Civilian ac ignore them, as I regularly find when a Jetstream flies towards my 16-ship merge in OTA C.:hmm:

[NorthSouth]

AA:

Agreed, OTAs aren't restricted to civils - and civil aviators don't even know they exist. In my view that's downright dangerous. Local flying schools conducting practice IMC trips in the middle of active OTAs which they're not allowed to know about is just asking for trouble and puts all the burden of avoidance on FJ pilots with too many other things on their mind.

But my point wasn't about civil aircraft being denied access to military airspace - I was challenging the view that the military is increasingly restricted in its access to airspace. I haven't seen any evidence of it yet.

I guess the real problem in the UK will be when Typhoon arrives and the MDAs really get busy. By that time international air traffic will have picked up again and the airlines will start getting stroppy about those routes across the North Sea.

[SirToppamHat]

The OTAs are there to enable 1 Gp AD ac to avoid each other, either by excluding non-participating 1 Gp AD ac from the area or by enabling coordinated use by promulgating a series of area freqs so users can check in and out of the areas, and obtain maximum trg value when weather in a planned area is not suitable. A formation planning to work in OTA C finding the weather unsuitable can at least try OTA D without the risk of facing opposing F3s without warning. There is no requirement for civillian or non-participating military ac to avoid any OTA.

OTA H always begs questions because it covers the whole of the Highlands. However, this is not really meant to be used as a single area; rather users are meant to promulgate, on the booking web site, the specific area within OTA H that they planning to operate.

The Class F routes will disappear when the new airspace classifications are forced on the UK in a couple of yrs time ... possibly to be replaced by more restrictive airspace.

My money is on more CAS in OTA D and the southern part of OTA C in the next couple of yrs so as to ease the congestion in the ScTMA. And we know they've always wanted an airway between Newcastle and Aberdeen ...

STH

[whowhenwhy]

Oh dear, this is going the same way of many threads before it. Mil versus civil! Civil are getting a GOOD deal out of the airspace changes of March 20th. They got their nice new airway to NEW. Manch got rid, effectively, of the Pennine task such that the vast majority of NEW and TSD in and outbounds that work in the open FIR are controlled by Lon Mil. The new airway structure, especially when combined with the CLN changes will hugely reduce the number of en-route delays. We in the military got the MDAs so that Typhoon can play in them, when we get it. It's not perfect, but it's an improvement and it's not caused serious problems for anyone, I don't think. As far as trainee pilots on sim IMC trips are concerned, sorry but I have no sympathy. Mil pilots have to do exactly the same thing. If youy're flying IMC, simulated or not, then you ask for and receive a radar service, from your nearest friendly service provider. They should tell you not only about conflicting traffic, but you could also ask them generally how busy the airspace is, where it isn't so busy, etc. One other thing, the reason for the volume of airspace is simple. If and when we get Typhoon, it will go faster for further than anything that is currently in operational service, with better radar and weapon systems. To ensure realism of training the MDAs have to be that big!

[NoseGunner]

My own opinion is that the main problem is one of communication.
When was the last time a current fast jet pilot/nav visited a flying club or an airline to talk directly to operating crews? And obviously vice versa. I'm convinced that just showing someone the map i use in OTA C, explaining the very standard CAP/merge positions as well as the constricted areas would solve many problems. Re am I being naive?

[whowhenwhy]

Nosegunner DH!

Unfortunately, who on the front-line has got the time to do what you suggest? Here's an idea. Any aircrew looking for a high profile, not a lot of work involved secondary duty? (aren't they all?) Do this as a Stn liaison job. With the location of many fast-jet stations close to regional airports (coz lets face it, it's the users of them that we are speaking about ) it'd be an easy job. I'd guess though that airline crews would have much the same problem that front-line crews have as far as spare-time is concerned.

[gasax]

I think it would all help. But don't think for a moment that it will be easy.

After months of complaining about our circuit being beaten up by passing FJ we were given a visit by the local RAF brass. All dressed up in their best uniforms they assured us of the thorough pre-flight planning before all missions and how we might somehow be misinterpreting things.

Just as they were getting back into their cars a flight of hawks roared up the runway centreline at about 300 feet, passing directing over their heads.

It would seem even RAF brass have a sense of embarassment.....