For the thinker in GA! In defence of the employer

[Screw Jac]

I have on a few occassions come out of retirement to add my 2 cents to a few posts. This post rsults from something that still frustrates me, so here I go.

HA is regularly bagged in this forum, why? It's because in the opinion of many of "monday's quater backs" he doesn't pay award etc.....
I must say an anonymous post is pretty cowardly.

Q How many pilots does NAC give employment to?
A When I was there it was in the mid 30's range!

Q How many NAC pilots start thier career with NAC and end up in the big end of town?
A Lots ( me included thanks old mate!!)

Q Who has his entire livelihood and that of his family tied up in an aviation business where an accident, bought about by an inexperienced kid could cost him his home?
A S*****


Q If in 10 years you could be sitting in an airline job, flying heavy metal, would the years of hard work be worth it?
A You bet

You see the GA phase of one's career can be the end of the line or a transition to something bigger. It all depends on whether we play the man or the ball. If you can turn around and say I made it, the late nights of study, interupted sleep, dubious communities and other SHORT TERM phenomena mean nothing they become funny stories told in the Hyatt ot the Sheraton! Flying was something we start because we love it. Lose a job and not be able to fly, or be somehow rendered medically unfit for an extended period and you will begin to appreciate that although GA is sometimes tough it is great fun! Flying is the end not the means.You need to invest a great deal of money and time into GA. Why blow it because some anonymous expert says dont do anything for nothing, make sure the award is there etc. Focus on the end product, if it is airlines WILL pay a great dividend later on. Don't get sidetracked by little things that dont really matter.Leave it to the monday morning quarter backs whilst you go and fly!

BTW Does anything matter in 100 years?
No you say so why worry about irrelevant garbage now?



Q How many of you "anonymous heroes" employ anybody, let alone 30 or so pilots?
A probably none

Q How does it feel to have your life's effort mean nothing?
A Become an anonymous monday morning quarter back, wait for 10 years of missed opportunity and then you'll find out.



As someone once told me, LISTEN OUT FOR THE DISGRUNTLED PILOT, HEAR WHAT HE OR SHE SAYS AND THE DISMISS IT.......
THEY WILL STILL BE THERE TELLING THE SAME DEAD END STORIES IN 10 YEARS AND FOR THEM THE RACE IS ALREADY LOST THE MOMENT THEY OPEN THEIR GOB..........

For all the monday quarter backs sitting out there behind keyboards about to salivate at the prospect of another anonymous post, don't bother......
:hmm: :D

[Ang737]

Never a truer word spoken Screw. Obviously someone has their head screwed on..

Ang ;)

[Screw Jac]

:ok:

Cheers Ang!
The view's pretty good up here!

[OpsNormal]

Amen to that.

Worded more succinctly and eloquently than I ever could manage as always.

I reckon let them whinge, the more time they are spending whingeing, the less time they have to see that someone else has put in more hard work than they were ever somehow able to manage, and has got to the goal line before them. Oh well, probably more reason for them to whinge...... cry babies.... :{

HA took me out of a situation that was, to say the least, very ordinary for me, and put me in a situation where I was able to hit the ground running, and yet we had never even met previously, nor had I had an interview with the CP before that time. Even before that HA had offered me a bed at his place one night on a trip through Darwin, but I was a bit late getting in (the Qf red eye from Sydney), to be able to take advantage of his hospitality.

As that old saying goes.... "walk a mile in his shoes first".

[geisha girl]

Screw Jac, you may have some valid points about bitchin and GA but you also seem to miss the point as well. People bitch because in a lot of cases they are not paid enough to survive on. To dismiss this as sour grapes, shows your total disregard for anyone else except yourself.

Maybe your oponion is the only valid one.

I think not.

To pass through GA without saying anything because you will be thought of as a whinger is a pathetic exuse.

Hey mate your just a small thinker.

Regards

Geisha Girl

PS
Most people bitch about things for a valid reason

[OpsNormal]

Whinge? Why yes, probably because they feel insecure about themselves, and feel they must tell all everything, much like you seem to geisha. The rest of us who found it "difficult to survive" got pro-active about it and got a second job. Unfortunately, do you have much of an idea as to how difficult it can be to be told that you are so way over qualified for some of the most menial positions in the workforce because you've had the drive to actually get off your butt previously, start a business and employ a few people for a number of years? After the 100th time, I got up again and tried again once more.

SJ a small thinker? Oh **(yes, I did think about naming you), if only you knew.

Go play trollies, you big thinker, you.

[Screw Jac]

So GG people bitch for a valid reason....
you want me to bitch.

Still owed four weeks termination pay along with the other pilots from a previous employer......but it doesnt matter.

Was unemployed as a pilot for nearly a year, had trouble finding employment

Aviation is a great industry except for the little people that call themselves pilots....Wouldn't know the first thing about commercial acumen, they ought teach a little of it in "Commercial theory". You see Geisha the key is to make it profitable enough to come back and do it tomorrow.....Funny thing economics...

Have done plenty of work for no rumeration when I was unemployed including ferrying aircraft to YMML from the NT. But as I reasoned i couldnt afford to hire a PA31 so it was virtual pay anyway!
Washed plenty of aircraft, driven plenty of brooms, flicked plenty of spanners, even run operations from my own residence.....Maybe for nothing in $ terms at the time

I had a boss who believed in me, wrote me a great reference, spoke glowingly of me and is a mate to boot!

NOT A MINUTE OF IT WAS UNREWARDED, IT PAID THE ULTIMATE DIVIDEND.

Guys and Gals consider anything today that appears unrewarded as Capital Adding, because it does get noticed and recognised. In other words the extra yards today may well generate the pay off tomorrow!


:ok: :ok:

p.s Its not what happens to you its what you do with it that matters! The choice is yours!

By the way,

Never starved always had my bills paid. And enough for a glass or two:ok:

Not too bad for GA and even life considering that at least 80% of the planet has nothing to eat........

But then again according to some that "misses the point."

[Transition Layer]

Well is it just a co-incidence that it is Monday morning and the quarterbacks are out? ;)

Let me start by saying that I agree with Screw Jac regarding the stories and memories - though I have only done a year and half or so in GA, I already feel like I have enough stories to supplement many nights on the turps around whichever hotel bar I may end up in. With no doubt a few more years (but not too many!) in GA to come, the story book is set to grow i'm sure. The mates I have made and the people I have met are probably the most enjoyable aspect.

The only thing I will add is this - there is enough hard work and hardship associated with working in GA as it is that getting paid below award just isn't required. I was lucky in my last job that I was paid full-time award wages and always on time, and I had a hard enough time surviving on that. I never went without food and always had enough for a few beers on the weekend, but living on any less would have been very difficult. The high cost of living associated with remote areas and paying off debts meant there was very little left over at the end of each week. And I am one of the lucky ones.

The stories, the memories, the experience, the mateship are great - but I can't imagine why living below the poverty line makes the experience any more enjoyable and makes the stories any better?

As for anonymity, plenty of people on these forums know me and my background and I have no problems with that.

TL

[geisha girl]

As I said Screw Jac

Small thinker

It's not about Aviation it's about caring for other people except for yourself.

Maybe a difficult concept for you.

It's not you is it N*** D***

You never seemed to be happy.

PS

Maybe Geisha Girls posts are done for some reason which is beyond the comprehension of the small thinkers.

Sometimes a pisstake is necessary.

[Next Generation]

SCREW JAC,

Well said.

I have often been asked if flying is a career worth getting into, because of all the hardship stories.

My answer is always the same.

"If you have to ask the question, then your heart is not in it and you most likely will not make it."

I love flying so much, I couldn't care if I wasn't making "award" wages to fly a C-210 around the bush. At least I was flying.

I believe that those who are truly passionate about aviation will succeed, despite all the obstacles.

[Screw Jac]

No it's not ND whomever that is!

Anyways GG if you are up for a start with VB all the best!
Stop wasting time here, as if you have a start flying wise then you'll need to get into the Boeing manuals.

And i so advise
;)

[High Altitude]

Don't forget that in the past I have:-

Worked on Aboriginal communities,
Worked on Cattle Stations,
Lived very remote...
Been screwed by an employer...

And I would do it all again.

One thing I have learnt is that you can't please everyone, trying to only results in yourself getting burnt. Me - well been to bl**dy easy on people for far to many years as I never fell out of sight of what remote flying/ living was like. Problem is that we are forced into corners all so often. Maybe we should take the JH approach and just sack you when you screw up? However I do not think that is a fair approach as we are all human. Everyone who knows me knows my approach.

The guys here now have their say and generally everyone gets a fair bit of flying... But geuss what if theres no flying then obviously no one gets to go flying.

I have seen a lot in my time and every now and then I wish I was still the small operator with a couple of planes, a couple of good mates flying with me, earning a bl**dy easy living.

However I love with a passion the company that I run and the people that have worked for me both past present and future, yeah sure things have gone up and down here over the years, there are those that surley will have felt hard done by and there are also those that will have enjoyed learning and helping the company to expand and to grow.

Me - What gives me personal satisfaction? Well to employ a bloke with 200 hours, to see him start on the 210, see him work out bush, see him work his ar*se of, to help him along the way to watch him become a professional pilot, then 3 years later to see him successfully get into an airline! Thats one of the things that makes this job satisfying! Not to mention the fairwell parties... mmm Miss Victoria...

On the negative, there is enough bullsh*t and b*tchiness in aviation that if we could bottle it and use it for power then we would save a fortune on fuel. BUT GEUSS what... Heres a newsflash for you EVERY INDUSTRY is the same... Ask a journo what the road to success is like.

Then to make it even harder there is this thing called competition which is all very good but unfortunately it is this that makes it a tough industry to succeed in. Have a look around Darwin alone and see how many companies have gone by the way side. The larger we grow and the longer we have been here the better that conditions are getting. Nothing happens overnight.

You know what I find really amusing? I am slandered, accussed of attrocities and kicked from behind the saftey of prune... But geuss what I find it very amusing... There's this old saying "The truth hurts" which would explain why I get contant enjoyment and amusement from the pages of the PRUNE...

[grrowler]

I agree 100% that anonymous p*ssing and moaning won't get you anywhere, but I think TL expressed my views the best.
Of course you need to go the extra miles to get to that goal of flying heavy metal (or whatever your ambition is). However, that doesn't change the fact that bottom end employers are paying below award (illegal) salaries. Get a second job you say - sure I will if need to (and have in the past), but really, why should I have to?

Perhaps, if people like yourself screw jac, who (i presume) are in a position to take previous employers to task about unpaid wages, etc, it would make the industry better for future generations of pilots coming through. It seems that once people make it they forget the bad, and only remember the good, and don't bother thinking about anyone else.

[geisha girl]

Hey Screw Jac I'll finish this pisstake now because I'm tired.

You are the perfect example of why I departed Aviation , egotistical wan***

If you had been at it for ten or fifteen years would you still sit back and say nothing.

Stupid little man

Goodbye

GG

[Screw Jac]

Yawn

I don't forget about future generations, hence my desire to get people thinking outside the square and looking upwards not at their feet. Life is full of knocks, Im simply pointing out that if you guys think it is tough swap your lot for that of an Ethiopian, in fact most of Africa, half of Asia.

As for GG I don't know her problem but I'm sure it would be much easier if she handed over one of the chips she's carrying...
At least she got out of aviation that's positive both for aviation and her.
Was at it in GA for a long time and gave up two secure profssional careers to chase my dream.
Egotistical is too easy a label. I don't think so, nor would most who know me think so.....


The thing with people in the modern age is the denial of responsibility for thier own actions, or in this case lack of them. Blame the industry, blame the employer, blame colleagues or even blame me. One day GG and people of her ilk, in a quiet moment get a mirror out and have a freaking look in it, you'll probably see the source of many of your frustrations.......

Life isn't perfect, but in Australia it's pretty darn good whether or not we are paid an award wage......
Do some travelling and look around this little planet, then tell me I'm missing the point little girl.

Nothing unless first a dream........

Au revoir

[rockarpee]

Srew Jac ,Dont worry abot GG, it was all a wind up and waste of time, she's a he with a big prob.I got caught up in it myself and even wished it best of luck. I feel soooooo dirty.:{

[Next Generation]

GG must have had too much time on his hands (or at least his one spare hand!)

[Screw Jac]

Thanks chaps!

:ok:

[grrowler]

Screw Jac,

I appreciate your idea, but it doesn't quite work for me. Saying that one should be happy cos one is better off than many Ethiopians is a cop out that parents use to make their kids eat their vegies! Yes I do realise I am lucky in that sense, however it has nothing to do with employers exploiting pilots.

[Perpetual_Hold_File]

If GA is just there to collect stories for your overnighters at the Hilton then that’s good enough excuse for me not to even be paid. Food and keep will do.

Why complain about wages and condition?

Well, in the end you're employed to do a job. You can still love and enjoy your work but as is lavished over eager young flying students you're expected to work as a professional and when employed you are supposed to be seen as one. So why accept wages and conditions under what you are suppose to be worth?

The rot that is in GA seeps upwards from the young, over excited and uninformed pilots with blinkers on trying to get work and who will accept anything to get it. How can you call yourself a professional if you work for next to nothing or accept below award conditions that itself is quite average. Oh, that’s right I forgot margins are slim. Well if they are that slim what else is being scrimped on?

If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages will improve, but somehow I don't think that is going to happen

[OpsNormal]

OK, well that is two people I know of getting into Virgin (only one as flight crew though), and I will admit that I made an easy enough assupmtion as to "who" each was here, and therefore a mistake.

I apologise, and I am trully surprised to read such words from someone I'd never pick in a million years as being like that at all.

What you have gotten as a reaction GG etc is something of a knee-jerk to the percieved attitude you espoused instead of your claimed gender. I still cannot believe you've done that, you sucked me in (which I guess isn't all that hard).

Also, why drag someone elses name into it? That's just plain crass.

[bush mechanics]

Ehh i bin drinkin dat lady in a boat and my puckin head goo bang bang,crikkeys im bin real pissssed!!!Hey you mob bin fly me too pohpunya ehh !!!I bin want dat plane wid them two motors,he bin real fast.eh screw jack i bin miss you long time,i bin think you bin get dat prancis pella and we bin get real drunk and cause big fight!!I bin get my wife GEISHA GIRL too cook them bush tucker!!!
and i bin let you screw her like movie star!!YOU THINK YOURE A GIRL BUT YOURE REALY A VERY UGLY MAN!!!!we know.Go home back too your silver spoon and chuck your self on the lounge room floor and cry like a baby.GA dosnt need anymore ******s.Stop blameing everyone else and take a good look at your self.
GA is slowly dieing,just have a look around moorabin,40 year old buisnesses closeing there doors.

[Gotmygearup]

"monday morning quarter back," forgive me if I'm Australian but that doesn't even make sense and,... As someone who believes in treating professionals as professionals if you want them to perform as such, I like to understand when someone is insulting me.

"If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages will improve..." well said PHF.

"Focus on the end product, if it is airlines WILL pay a great dividend later on." Why should it SJ, would you still say it was all worth it if the majors played and payed by the same rules you endorse for GA? Would you still be happy if for your hard earned experience you where still working for casual pay, no security and oh yes... hotel stories. Or are you saying that people who carry 15 PAX rather than 150, are less professional than yourself.

The old saying is true enough, pay peanuts and you get monkeys. The resent findings in the Lake Evella crash are all to quickly forgotten. It's well and good to take children and give them their "break," but why should that compromise on standards, whether contractual or safety. From what I've seen (& I know you'll all be itching to slam me for this generalisation), operators that claim the high ground for employing low hour pilots, do so because they are the ones desperate enough to accept less than adequate conditions. Worse still these vulnerable juniors are also yet to learn that compromising safety for an operator is not worth risking you life for.

SJ, "NOT A MINUTE OF IT WAS UNREWARDED, IT PAID THE ULTIMATE DIVIDEND." You are one of the blessed, for not all get to see the dividend before paying the ultimate price.

Now where have I heard that slogan..."Where experience counts"... can't remember, but it couldn't be NAC. Surely "a bloke with 200 hours" can't be called experienced.

Perhaps incident and accident rates should speak for themselves.

"But geuss what if theres no flying then obviously no one gets to go flying..." If conditions there are so generous HA, what sort of pay can all your casually employed staff rely on when the flying stops.

Now, before you write me off as disgruntled, insecure and a quarterback (well I don't get it so maybe I am one). I've had my break in GA, had the chance accrued many hours, many stories, and worked very hard to provide a professional standard of service and safety. And I don't loose sight of my dependence on my employer, or their on going existence. In return I receive a full time salary, the proper respect for the work I put in, and have a satisfying and fulling career under way without flying "heavy metal."

So I refer back to what has already been well said, "If everyone stopped looking at GA as a stepping stone or hobby then maybe conditions and wages (and I would add standards and safety) will improve."

G-UP.

[Poto]

Which comes first the chicken or the egg?
If Wages/conditions and safety standards were improved then maybe GA would not be used as a stepping stone.

I do not doubt that each and every person who posts here has a love of flying whether Daddy paid or not! It is a wicked job being in the Air! However everyone gets to a point when a change is needed, be it a new challenge or a new bit of earth to fly over, or new base with a greater abundance of the opposite sex (or same sex if thats your go).
This my friends is part of the pulling power of aviation. New endeavours are sought, new crap to conquer!

Stay up there!
Poto:ok:

[LF]

You are a fool SJ.

It is your attitude that ensures GA pilots will never be paid what they should or GA be considered anything more than a stepping stone to the airlines.

Next time you need some repairs done around your house maybe you could suggest to the apprentice who shows up that he could do it for nothing because the pay off will come tomorrow, maybe you could even write him a great reference or be his mate.

Idiot.

[High Altitude]

I think you are missing the point. GA is, has and always will be regarded as a stepping stone to bigger and better. How many people do you honestly know that start out to make a GA career? I know I didn't I had every intention of the airlines - things change.

[Next Generation]

Next time you need some repairs done around your house maybe you could suggest to the apprentice who shows up that he could do it for nothing because the pay off will come tomorrow, maybe you could even write him a great reference or be his mate.

If you have the apprentice doing the work, he/she is probably doing the job for next to nothing anyway.

Eventually the apprentice will get his ticket, and then he/she can earn the money that he/she rightly deserves.

GA is the apprenticeship for Airlines. That's the way it is.

You can't convince me that a freshly trained CPL has the skill level commensurate with the level of payment that you suggest. I would in fact suggest that the CPL is only a licence to learn.

I certainly would not have been able to fly a Chieftan or Baron productively when I was fresh out of training.

The first single-engine "JOB" with low wages is actually still a learning ground, and once a confident level is achieved, the race is on for a twin-engine position, and it is back to learning again. After that, the search for satisfying and financially rewarding employment begins.

Most operators have heard all the promises from young or low-time pilots before:- I am here for the long run; I am not looking for a job in the airlines; I'd be happy to fly a Chieftan for the rest of my life; etc.

If an opportunity for advancement comes up, these same people are off in a flash, and they care little for the operator they leave behind who has to continue on.

For those odd individuals who do remain with one GA operator for any substantial period of time, their loyalty is usually rewarded with appropriate wages and conditions.

Whinging about what you think you ought to be paid will not increase your wages. A positive attitude might.

All of the guys I have met who have stayed positive through their time in GA have gone on to bigger and better things, but the moaners and complainers linger on in GA, become bitter and twisted, and then spend all their time on PPRUNE trying to drum up support from others with similar attitudes.

A wise old friend once told me "Your attitude determines your altitude."

Think about it.

[High Altitude]

Very well said...

[D Rate]

Ditto with HA and NG.

Some people get busy doing and some get busy whinging....

SJ seems to be saying that positive attitude and commerical reality are omnipotent.....

I tend to agree.

So all you Big "L's" out there keep on crying foul, enjoy GA for the rest of your life. But if you are really passionate and SJ so far removed from reality, take him up on his offer... Nah its tough to keep bagging someone in an anonymous forum.....LOSERS
:ok:

[Screw Jac]

:p

"Got my gear up", just a little question...Do you really believe that providing professional service is associated with $? Before you answer yes, note that plenty of my friends were earning ****** all during the administration of the AN group of companies. Did it change their attitude....you bet it didn't those guys are professional. Any commercial pilot with an appreciation of commercial and economic relaity understands the objective of commercial aviation is to come back and do it tomorrow. In other words my friends there has to be enough motivation( profit/return) for an owner to continue taking chances....... As NG said it was attitude that determined (altitude) professionalism not the pay rate. Attitude is an individual characteristic. Either you got it in which case you achieve your own individual form of greatness. OR YOU SIT IN HERE AND BITCH......

"LF" give me a call wise a*s and we'll sort it out face to face you loser Tell me you freaking genius how many people you employ again?

Growler old mate....

It's not an analogy for vegetables. Have you ever been to Africa or most of Asia and seen the abject poverty? Where there is no escape each day just survival..Tell me when you have seen the poor in Calcutta that pooor old pilots in Australia do it tough in comparison. I'm certainly not denigrating the efforts pilots put into their career etc.
We got it easy in Australia, all people have to do is get their head out of the self pity trap and look around.

Anyways I guess i'll get carpeted again by all those who think an overseas holiday goes as far as the Gold Coast!

But life isn't fair(edited for length)

[LF]

My, my ,my SJ don't you take it to heart when someone disagree's with your all knowing opinion.

My point Next Gen. is that GA shouldn't only be considered as "the apprenticeship for the airlines", it should be a viable career for anyone choosing to make it so. This won't occur until GA pilots are paid what they should be. And this won't occur while people think it's o.k to pay f**k all because the real payoff is experience.

I'ts not me suggesting what a new CPL should be paid, there's an award in place for that and a CPL is a licence to learn but it shouldn't mean getting screwed over at the same time.

[Next Generation]

LF

You dissappoint me when you refer to others as a fool and an idiot, purely because their opinion differs from yours.

Fool :- a person who acts or thinks unwisely or imprudently.

Stupid:-not intelligent or clever, slow at learning or understanding things.

From the discussions within this thread, I find it difficult to draw the same conclusion as you have about ScrewJac

I could not find your definition that describes Fool or Idiot as somebody with a different opinion to your own.

However, from the lack of depth in your comments, it may appear to some that you are in fact the Fool and the Idiot.

[LF]

Next Gen.

Perhaps my suggestion that SJ is a fool & an idiot was a little harsh however I do not understand how someone who has come from GA can sanction the underpaying or lack of payment to pilots simply because the experience they seek to obtain is considered payment enough.

[Next Generation]

I fly because I love to fly !!!!!

If I wanted to be rich, I would have become a doctor !

Nobody (as far as I know) has ever had a gun put to their head and told that they must choose this career path.

If you are unhappy in your chosen field, get out and let somebody who really wants to fly have a chance.

[Perpetual_Hold_File]

I think that some people offering their opinions here are doing so from the perspective of those just starting employment or chasing the next rung in the GA ladder.

I can’t believe that people are defending paying below award wages like it is a fortune that operators can’t afford in GA!

Base salary for a single engine charter pilot according to the award:
$28776
For a multi engine pilot operating aircraft not above 3360kgs
$33244
With extras included in the award these amounts are slightly higher but you would be lucky to be paying more than 38k for a multi piston driver under the award.

I would think that the award is structured to suitably reflect a reasonable remuneration to a suitably qualified person to carry out his or her duties.
If it isn’t then what do all you experts propose is a reasonable wage to be offered to pilots?

The award covers a lot more than just money, what are some of your opinions on severance pay, leave, sick days etc? Does any of that matter to you?

Dam, we should just be thankful we weren’t born in poverty stricken Ethiopia.

How are your values on other aspects of your profession if your eyes are blinkered and fixed straight ahead searching for the next hour that you should be thankful for because you don’t have the experience really to be deserved proper pay for it.

But, you know, why your there and keen to help out can you just fly this one extra day for us, bust your duty wide open, fly in weather below your qualifications, go with unserviceabilities, it’s a tight ship GA don't you know. Be thankful for your job. (and the hours)

Going to have the spine to stand up to these scenarios?

We all have or have had our sights set on the horizon and the work we do today is helping us reach our goals, but why degenerate yourself into a spineless mould by refusing to open your eyes, standing above the aviating egotistical masturbation and dreamy John Magee bullsh*t and justifiably asserting your worth as a person, employee and aviator and at least show that you are capable of deserving respect.

If you can't do this then you can let loose with all the verbal diarrhea comparisons of starving kids in Africa you like but it’s a poor effort in trying to justify a serious lack of morals, self respect and yes- work ethics.

[bush mechanics]

Some might think Im a GA looser but I dont realy care.Ive been doing the same thing for over ten years and I still enjoy going too work.(most times)I dont think this is a crime.If your happy In what you are doing well good for you,If you are not well time to get out and do something different!Sure I could get a diffrent job which pays better but Im happy.I get told all the time that I should choose the hangar or flying not both,Why should I,I get the best of both worlds.Im the lucky one.

[Next Generation]

I suppose your first question at a Regional or Major Airline interview will be"What are the pay and conditions".

You will have plenty of time to review the selection panels answer on your way back to GA.

Money isn't everything!

[OpsNormal]

I guess someone will nail me for having an opinion here along with SJ and NG etc, but what the puck....

I'm doing my third apprenticeship. I started way back when brand spanking new cars still ran super fuel (that's leaded to you new age know-alls), and I did my first year, like all new hire apprentices, cleaning greasy, crappy parts in the safetykleen sink. I got paid jacksquat (under a sixth of the wage a qualified tradesman was drawing at the time), and I had to stay back and wash the floors etc etc each night after everyone went home, coz that's the way it was. On weekends and the odd week away I got myself some discipline training through 4/3RNSWR D Coy. This went on for a number of years.

I got wise after a few years and decided that I could do a better job of being the boss than the boss could, so after I was qualified I went and bought into a franchise of a relatively large brand-named repairer. I did reasonably well for myself, and I had a great time doing so. I even made a bit of $$ when I decided I'd had enough of chit under my fingernails, and the odd sleepless night wondering where the $$'s were gonna come from.

Second apprenticeship happened when I said to my old man one day "want some help for a few weeks with that job" in the building industry. A few weeks became eight years.... Towards the end I was running teams of builders/ roofers/ labourers all at the one time on differring jobsites, with job values measured in the millions of dollars for each site. Pay went commensurate with returns.....

Now I have embarked on apprenticeship number three, and the only advice I'll say to any of you that go out there and get a CPL with no real understanding of just what the industry is all about, then are you really fair dinkum about becoming an (insert ultimate goal here)? If you were, then you'd have done your homework a bit better, wouldn't you?

Those of which who choose to carry-on regardless, and continue to persevere knowing that with no pain there is no reward, I'll take my hat off to you, for you trully have your own measure and goals.

Those who would rather make a huge noise about it and have gotten into this industry, knowing all the time just what the score actually was, there is nobody else to blame but you.

I didn't say that everyone should just accept it, rather be aware of what it is going to take to get you where you want to go.

Those who cannot accept this, perhaps you'd be better-off doing something else if you don't have the patience to persevere. Besides, there ARE GA jobs that do pay rather well, you've just got to work out what and where.

Somebody surely should be able to get another knife in, shouldn't they? :hmm:

[Transition Layer]

P_H_F

I would think that the award is structured to suitably reflect a reasonable remuneration to a suitably qualified person to carry out his or her duties.

I agree, within a couple of $ks yes. However, paying below the award isn't "reasonable remuneration"! That is my point, your point and is in line with what others are saying on this forum. Others please take note!

Dam, we should just be thankful we weren’t born in poverty stricken Ethiopia

I'm sorry, but like Screw Jac, you are completely missing the point. I could earn $1000 per annum in Ethiopia and be one of the wealthiest people in the country. But last time I checked, I wasn't born there, I don't work there, I work in Australia and my salary should directly reflect the cost and standards of living of this country, not Ethiopia!

G'day Ops!!! Hope all is well mate. Just one question though - I thoroughly agree with your apprenticeship analogy, but is the responsibility of a young mechanic or carpenter quite the same as a SE VFR pilot, with perhaps 7 paying pax sitting behind him? You have done all three, so you are in a much better position to comment...

Cheers,
TL off to :zzz:

[LF]

NG

Why is it so hard for you to accept that we should be paid better than we are & why does that have anything to do with doing the job for the money.

I love flying & have not regreted a single day of the last 10 years but that does not mean I don't hope that things can improve.

I don't want or expect to be paid millions of dollars but being paid what is right is the very least we should expect.

[Continental-520]

Some of you have no idea as to how many people there are out there who, in fact, have ALSO worked hard to finance and attain their CPL and would give absolutely everything they have for jobs that we presently hold, regardless of pay or conditions, which comes back to the "rich kids coming in and offering to work for free" scenario.

I have so many mates back in town who would give SO much to be in my position, despite having been paid well under award up until recently. And no, they don't go around telling CP's they'll work for free. They are very eager, keen and enthusiastic though, and will fully deserve their go when they get it.

So, next time you feel like having a whinge about whatever exploitation you think you're being subjected to, just remember:

1) If it's that bad, get out. Get into something you actually enjoy doing and will thrive in, for everyone's sake.

2) Give your job to someone who actually passionately wants it, since you don't.

3) Your employer would LOVE to see you flying 30 hours per week and would also LOVE to pay you ABOVE award, but you know what? They CAN'T! Yes, they have employed you to fly, and therefore they want you to fly as MUCH as you legally can. If there's no work though, there's no work. Refer back to point #1.

Need some inspiration?

Well, try seeing things as if it was all you. Your business. Your bread and butter. Your equipment. Start thinking of ways to generate business next time you're sweeping the hangar floor or sanding corrosion out of airframe panels. The company has given you the privilege of working under the AOC, so go out there and take advantage of that. Some of you will be very surprised, I suspect...


520.

[jon.pierre]

Or are you saying that people who carry 15 PAX rather than 150, are less professional than yourself.
GMGU, it sounds like that is exactly what SJ is saying and my own opinion would agree.
You can't convince me that a freshly trained CPL has the skill level commensurate with the level of payment that you suggest. I would in fact suggest that the CPL is only a licence to learn.
But remarkably; the exact same award that that protects the salaries of pilots flying for the major carriers is also, the exact same award that SJ, NG and others are arguing as unreasonable here. As Perpetual as pointed out above, the award recognises the difference in skill, professionalism, expectation placed on pilots in all levels of flying and specifies the fair and reasonable remuneration for it.

More over it is written to protect workers rights of job security, leave from duties (both recreational and sick leave), and also to enforce on employers obligations for taxpaying society in the event staff terminations.
… plenty of my friends were earning ****** all during the administration of the AN group of companies. Did it change their attitude....you bet it didn't those guys are professional. Any commercial pilot with an appreciation of commercial and economic relaity understands the objective of commercial aviation is to come back and do it tomorrow.

“Tut tut” SJ! I think you owe your friends and the other AN staff, that worked so hard and gave so much to save it, a remorseful apology. Don’t cheapen what they did. As I recall, they were seen as hero’s for standing up when it was said AN could not otherwise afford to survive and agreeing to give up salaries and conditions they deserve to protect the airline. They extended themselves for an extenuating cause.

But, what you and your peers have argued here, is that it be fair and reasonable for a employer to EXPECT such sacrifice of staff as standard all of the time. That is not a heroic situation, but exploitation. Perhaps companies that can afford advertising stunts like sponsoring "ladies fashions" at the races, but cries cannot afford fair workplace agreements, needs to rethink its priorities.

GMGU, the Lake Evella findings are very poignant (and I those against you chose to ignored it) and employers who ignore it do so with tremendous risk. I don’t think any one would argue, that should a guide chose to take more tourists to swim at Crocs’ Hollow (I think it was called), they’d be a damnable fool, deserving of all the charges and litigation that could possibly be served.

Why can't the numbers work HA, others in DN can… or at least thinks thier staff worthy of trying.

[Next Generation]

LF

I obviously see this whole issue in a completely different light to you.

To you, flying is just a job.

To me, it is my reason for getting out of bed in the morning, my reason for being.

If I wasn't employed as a pilot, every spare cent I have would be spent on flying.

They say that if you can find something you love to do, then you never have to work a day in your life. I haven't worked for years!

I don't believe there is any relevance in the number of passengers you carry, as to how important you are. If there is 1 or 100 persons on board, the task is still the same.

I have been fortunate enough to take something that I considered to be a hobby, and to actually get paid to do it.

There are many others like me who have done the hard yards in some pretty remote areas, and still maintain a positive attitude not believing that the world owes them a living.

These are the guys who will eventually succeed.

[D Rate]

NG has it summed up more succintly than anybody.

If you want a full "bank account" go do something else.
If you want a full "fun account" then do what makes you happy.

Have yet to see a headstone at a cemetry that indicates how much was earned during one's lifetime.....

Maybe HA could just close the doors and walk away. Personally I don't know but I can't see any other employer providing employment to 30 odd pilots.
Unless all of you with as SJ says commercial licences but no ACUMEN decide to put your money where your mouth is and go do it yourself...Boy would that change a few perspectives.

Good Day gentleman:hmm:

[Transition Layer]

G'day,

For those of you suggesting that I (or anyone else arguing against below award conditions) don't love or enjoy flying as much as you because we wouldn't do it for free or something less than award, I am extremely pi55ed off!!!

I do love flying a great deal, and I have chosen to do it for a career therefore I approach it in a professional manner at all times. This begins with conditions and pay! Do not sell yourself short!
Next Generation
...not believing that the world owes them a living
It doesn't mean expecting a million bucks for your services, it means getting what the Federal Government, in consultation with Industrial Tribunals, has determined you are worth!

And Continental - 520
Your employer...would also LOVE to pay you ABOVE award, but you know what? They CAN'T!

If they can't afford to do that, then perhaps they aren't charging the right rate for their aircraft? I saw recently in another post that your boss decided to give you a pay rise more in accordance with the award - why was that? Did he start charging more or did he reduce costs elsewhere? It must have come from somewhere...

Will anything positive ever come of these seemingly endless discussions we have on GA pay and conditions???? :confused:

TL

[D Rate]

:(
Nothing productive ever comes out of a conversation where there are two sides;those doing it (employing) and those that bitch about how the employer does it...It's an endless loop question

Not perfect the aviation industry but the view is sure worth it!
:E :E

[Aussierotor]

"If you want to be rich ,become a doctor"

Very good comparison.Doctors and pilots both have to fork out money to get their positions.
A doc can improve to be a surgeon or specialist
A pilot can get to the top of his tree as well.
Other docs can own their own practice.
other pilots can be the top in GA.

But what about the new docs working in hospitals or those who dont have their own practice..They get F-All for the hours they work,but at least there is a shortage in their field.
They know what to expect and do it.For most the rewards come later.Who knows ,some may even look forward to sticking their finger up someones clacker to see if they got prostate troubles.

Majority when choosing aviation think of being major airline pilots.and with experience and hours may get their.
But as with most things you have to put up with the cr@p first,compounded by the fact there isnt enough jobs around for all who have a CPL.

So ,of course your going to get companies paying under award wages etc.They are laughing ,pilots banging on their door all the time--must be like christmas to them.
And as for pilots ,you cant get anywhere without hours,so whats the choice.

Seems to me everyone is getting up pilots for working for sh!t .In most cases these are trying to keep the dream alive.

Surely its up to the government.They put out the award figures etc.Not knowing much about the laws(only find out when i break one) how come places paying under award wages arent prosicuted or taken out of bussiness.
That seems to be the root of the problem.

[Transition Layer]

D Rate

Nothing productive ever comes out of a conversation where there are two sides.

I'm sorry but what the f*ck does that mean??? Possibly the most ridiculous comment (bar Winstun) to ever appear on these forums!

TL :hmm:

[D Rate]

TL you work for the media? Surely you must be journalist......

Read the quote in isolation, or put it in context, your choice. It might help you to read it completely to understand the intent.
:hmm: :hmm:

I see this sorry scenario littering the landscape of GA.
So many people losing sight of the objective...
When those of us that spent time in remote areas, enduring the isolation, high cost of living, community issues look back and read our logbooks do we remember whether we earned $35.00 bucks or $3,500? No we remember the day the take off, any mishaps and the sheer magic feeling of being a pilot in command.

I spent numerous years in remote parts of Australia having given up two well paid professional careers, finally landing myself in GA. I must say I was suprised at the ferocious way people tried to get ahead. The swiftness of change, people purporting to be friends and then looking for the short cut, often at the expense of others...

I did never really work a day in GA. I did plenty of pushing brooms, helping the LAME's marketing the product, trying to build something sustainable. All of it directed at the logbook, building my hours in a sustainable way, all of it an investment in myself.
If I didn't get a job in the big end of town somebody would recognise my efforts. They did.
It WAS MY ATTITUDE, MY VALUES AND INTEGRITY THAT CLOUDED THE WAY I VIEWED MY CAREER, not the employer, not the industry, the IRC or anybody else.
Rise above it, transcend the percieved injustice.

So guys the challenge is internal not external. It's up to you.
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WAY YOU FEEL NOBODY ELSE. If aviation is distressing and I am sure there are plenty of sad tales out there, life is passing you by. Get out and be happy.

But if you still listen and look skyward to see what aircraft it is,
STICK WITH IT!!! AS NG said it beats working for a living!

:ok: :ok:

[Transition Layer]

Hahaha, no I don't work in the media D Rate...I love flying too much!!!

I sat and re-read your post a number of times before I posted, and whichever way I read it, it still didn't make any sense. Perhaps I did sensationalise it by singling out that specific sentence but it wasn't my intention.

To me, dialogue between two-sides is how issues are resolved, no matter how distant their views are from each other, in this case employers and would-be employees. The end result is hopefully somewhere in the middle.

The problem will still be around as long as the ones doing the employing don't think they are doing anything wrong.

TL :ok:

[Continental-520]

TL,

The rise was a result of the business having reached a certain point in its growth prior to the expected growth rate. Whilst the aircraft charge rates are extravagant, the company are using the extra dosh over what would be considered a normal profit margin to pay for the business, started less than two years ago. Now that it's ticking over nicely, thanks to the toil of everyone involved since the start, we're starting to see the rewards.


520.

[maxgrad]

I read through to page two then started skimming through the next.

you love flying?...well fly!
you like earning a fair $?...Don't get into GA
you love flying and earning a fair $?...things get rather interesting from here!!!

When I was instructing I would tell students that the industry sucks! Lets face it, it does, but if you love flying you will be prepared to accept a great deal.

No I don't like working for nicks but I CHOOSE to fly therefore I get on with it!!!!

[Next Generation]

MAXGRAD
Well said!

Some guys just don't get it.

[meanestman]

do you honestly think doctors would have a forum for pillocks like this, where you expose yourselves as the epitomy of the boring and self indulged. I laugh when pilots compare themselves to doctors and alike.
You blokes really do revolve around the same door, topic after topic... and publicy air some really dopey sounding cr ap.
If you enjoy flying...or if you dont....so what???
just dont crash...:hmm:

[Next Generation]

Buy That Man A Beer !!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Azimuth]

SCREW JACK

It's nice to read positive posts for a change on PPRUNE. Good on you.:ok:

[jon.pierre]

Surely its up to the government.They put out the award figures etc.Not knowing much about the laws(only find out when i break one) how come places paying under award wages arent prosicuted or taken out of bussiness.
Aussierotor , a prudent observation if there is anyone from the government reading.

The award has comes up for conversation on and off at work with many spouting opinions about what employers must do, often without actually bothering to ask people who actually should know.

Not having read the Workplace Relations Act (and still haven’t), I asked wageline and was told (if anyone can show them or my interpretation of their jargon to be wrong I’d be keen to here about it);
There are three levels of cover for employees.
1. Respondents Award: Conditions negotiated between parties in the industry, normally unions and businesses. Business can sign off on the agreement, but this award is only binding on those that do. The only motivating force for a business to join comes through unionised strength.
2. Common Rule Award: Conditions layed down by government and is binding to all involved in a specified industry.
3. Workplace Relations Act or Industrial Relations Act… oh, one of the acts. The act covers more general rights of public holidays, and minimum annual leave but, doesn’t cover salaries at all.

The cover flows down in that order. What the respondents award does not cover, may not be below the common rule award and what that doesn’t cover reverts to the act… PROBLEM. The “PILOTS’ (GENERAL AVIATION) AWARD” is a RESPONDENTS award…
The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2, and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.
So if the company is not a signatory, revert to next level of cover, the common rule award… Doh, another problem. There is NO COMMON RULE award for pilots at either state (at least not NT) or Federal levels.

The act doesn’t cover salaries or even sick leave, so GA pilots are left with basically no minimum binding cover.

Now that does not include all businesses, many are listed in the appendices. Many businesses that are not, provide for staff by (or very close to) award conditions anyway. Those that don’t, and are being defend here, are probably the minority.

[The Bullwinkle]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I am sure that you will), But if a young pilot with a fresh CPL turns up in the middle of no-mans land with a brand new licence and a heap of enthusiasm, looking for work and is fortunate enough to find an operator who says "Sure kid, I'll give you a start, the wages are $ xxx per hour and you only get paid when you fly", and the young pilot at that point says "Thankyou very much, when can I start", wouldn't that be regarded as an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement?

The pilot knew what the wages on offer were before he started, and he could have refused right then and there.

I think many pilots start this way, but once they have been flying for a couple of months, they begin to feel that they should be paid more.

No pilot AT ALL (and I don't care what you say about this), has ever finished his CPL and decided, "Great, now I have my CPL, I can fulfil my lifelong dream of flying a Cessna 182 around the bush until I retire".

It's a bit like buying a house under the flightpath to a major airport because it is cheap, then complaining about the noise from the aircraft.

You knew and ACCEPTED the deal at the start, make the most of the opportunity you have been given, then move on.

BW

[Aussierotor]

Thanks JON PIERRE.

You seem to know your stuff.
To confusing for me.I was on workplace agreement ,then state(wa)laws changed which made that invalid apparently.So it was another agreement ,i think under the federal award ,or you could go on the wa state award,or join a union on another thing------all to complicated for me.

But i still thought there was a minimum wage clause ,which is not too much anyway 3-400 a week i think.

I agree with BULLWINKLE ,an eager newbie ,just wants a start.
It works both ways ,an operator may be using you ,but you are also using him because when the hours build up your off to a better job.
Like most other trades you could classify it as an apprenticeship.
Right or wrong ,thats life.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Ahh pilots!! Their own worst enemy!!

So easy to exploit AND THEY ACTUALLY THANK YOU FOR IT!!


:yuk:

[scud_runner]

Amongst all the idealism floating around here noone seems to point out that paying less than award wage is ILLEGAL!!!!!! I haven't had anything to do with NAC personally but if they don't pay the award they are breaking the law. This side of the topic has been done to death previously, however just because GA is a stepping stone doesn't condone breaking the law.

It also punishes companies that do pay award wages and do the right thing. All this could stop tommorrow if pilots actually got together and collectively said that no flying will be done until we are paid the award. However this will never happen because we are motivated by things other than money and will undercut anyone if given the chance, to climb the 'greasy pole'.

I have mentioned previous about a situation that was occuring in night freight in the late 90's where the guys loading the aircraft were getting paid MORE than the F/O. How the hell does that work????? Becuase the guys loading the planes are in a strong union that rightly or wrongly argue a wage case for their members. Meanwhile the pilots are fighting each other to get the job!!!

Companies would be paying award wages if pilots stuck together, but they won't so the circus that is GA will be perpetuated.

And Screw Jack I find your reasoning a little illogical given that you are in an airline which is unionised and who (the union) over the years have gone in to bat so that you are staying in nice accomodation, so that your crew rest is located in a quiet position in the aircraft, so that you get paid for the responsibility that you have. Yet you are arguing that is OK for GA companies to pay less than award wages?? (Which is harldly alot of money in anyones language) Do you think that your airline job would be so good if it wasn't for a union??? The unions over the years are what have made airline flying so safe and well paid over the years.

If only the boofheads in GA would realise this we might actually have an industry worth staying in. :-)

[Sheep Guts]

Well guys just make sure you know "WHERE YOU ARE GOING" and "WHERE YOU CAME FROM".

I myself dont know where I am going, so thats what makes it all exciting for me. Ive worked and lived in these locations.


KATHERINE N.T.:(
BATCHELOR N.T
DARWIN N.T.
KATHERINE N.T
SMITH POINT N.T.
OENPELLI
DARWIN
HALLS CREEK
DARWIN
NGUKURR
DARWIN
GOVE
DARWIN
TAPACHULA,MEXICO
PANAMA CITY,PANAMA
KINGSTON ,JAMAICA
DARWIN
DARWIN
KINGSTON, JAMAICA
MONTEGO BAY, JAMAICA ( Retrenched and broke up with my fiance money milkng bitch she was)
KINGSTON , JAMAICA ( got my old job back )

Never ever burn your bridges as they will BE back to haunt you everytime.

Thanks NAC

Regards
Sheep

"FOR ME AVIATION IS THE EXPERIENCE OF FLYING DIFFERENT TYPES AND DIFFERENT LOCATIONS"
" NOT STUCK IN ONE PLACE ON ONE TYPE" and still complaining about conditions. Those of who complain about what you are doing or what employment situation your in must know this "YOU ARE THE SOUL DECIDER OF YOUR OWN AVIATION DESTINY"

You alone put yourself in the position and you alone can get yourself out of it. The most important person in your Career is "YOU" Remmeber that any employer can dump you ass soon as you dump them.


Oh scudrunner
Amongst all the idealism floating around here noone seems to point out that paying less than award wage is ILLEGAL!!!!!!

Well maybe in an ideal world but really the Union in Australia is a Toothless tiger as are most around the world. Enterprise bargaining and Work Place aggreements arae now the norm, and also, the critical thing is if the Employer is or isnt a signatory to the award . Then the "Award" is not worth the paper it written on. For those of you who felt they were hard done by. There is one critical difference at NAC from other employers, you personally could have approached the employer to negotiate your terms if you felt you were being hard done by. I did, as so did many others....

I am still doing this today, as when you work overseas, contract negotiation is more important especially with diifereing working conditions...

[Winstun]

I myself dont know where I am going, so thats what makes it all exciting for me. DARWIN x7 KINGSTON x3 .....REAL exciting....:rolleyes: :zzz:

[Pinky the pilot]

Sheep Guts; Your previous post was well said. Suggest you ignore the one that immediately followed.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Next Generation]

SHEEPGUTS
Well said!!!

You should remember where you came from.

Whenever I have progressed "up the food-chain", I have always contacted my previous employers to let them know how I am getting on, and especially to thank them for the opportunities that they gave me.

Without the small operators who employ casuals and give low-time pilots a break, many of us would never make it to the airlines.

I know I appreciated somebody taking a risk on me when I only had a few hundred hours total time, and to those involved I am eternally grateful.

[Transition Layer]

A bit of irony for you all...

I was searching on google for some info on what actually makes someone a "professional" (to follow up on the comparison between doctors and pilots). Initially I typed in "What is a Professional" but had to narrow it down so tried "Definition of a Professional Pilot".

The result?

A link to a website called Will Fly For Food (http://www.willflyforfood.cc)

That just about says it all!!!

TL

[OpsNormal]

Sheep Guts, a well written, concise (in my opinion, FWIW), and an accurate portrayal of the choices and destinations that our jobs may one day take any of us to. To some, the variety of destinations that one can ply one's trade is one of the major drawcards of our industry. Something that the likes of Winstun etc may yet not actually have a grasp of. What is your cup of tea is not necessarily mine, or indeed theirs.

I know what my goals are, I have the rest of my life in which to attain them, and I couldn't care less what the likes of Winstun think of them. Nor should anyone else care what others think of their dreams and aspirations.

Without some pain, there can be no personal gain in terms of personal development. For it is the tests that we find ourselves confronted with, and our actions with which we use to attack them that will determine how we develop as human beings in the society we find ourselves living in, in this day and age. A society that Winstun and his admirers don't seem to outwardly (however, IMHO it is an elaborate ruse), have a complete grasp upon.

T_L, I'll email when able, and prolly see you in a couple of weeks (I'll be down there for a couple of reasons for a few short days). Could you email me your mobile number?

Ah Max, top of the morning to you sir! You've picked-up a very valid point in the discussion that many may have missed. That is that many have gone before with blinkers firmly in place WRT pay and conditions, and have been rudely awoken when confronted with the real truth. The message is simple.... Be aware of what you are getting into. To fail to do this, is to demonstrate a lack of prior preparation on the part of the potential new cpl. S/he might be forgiven somewhat however, if being led by the nose by one of these training organisations that promise to "have you in the flight deck of an airliner within two years" kinda thing, with all the glitz and glamour that might be associated with some of the more "well-funded" training institutions that eagerly and actively pursue new students to fill the left seat of their ageing fleets.

Regards,
Ops.
:ok:

[Sheep Guts]

hahaha
Ah Winstun I see your up to your old comments. I se your up to 175 posts of total tripe now. Good for you .......:hmm: :zzz:

[T3000]

screwjac=HA
NG=HA
Might as well be

[bush mechanics]

T3000,you are wrong amiggo,Screwjack isnt HA,HA=HA

[neville_nobody]

Screw Jac is not HA. He is an ex employee who went onto bigger things.

[RYAN TCAD]

Sounds like Jac got Screwed on the wage front when he started out.

TRY NOT TO LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!

GA hasn't got a Union - that's why it looks as if the award wage for a GA pilot has only risen $900 or so in the past 5 years or more!

Hardly seems to be keeping in step with the CPI.

Add to that - many GA bosses would love to pay you nothing, because there are more pilots than jobs!

Stuff that - DONT LET IT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!

[kym]

why then dont we from a pilots union??????

is there one out there????

because if we were to form one, and all GA pilots joined it. then if we found out that a GA operator was not paying there pilot correctly. you strike baby!!!!

qantas baggage handlers are striking??? so why the hell should'nt we?????

Would'nt it be great if a GA pilot could ring his Mum and Dad, and tell them his first Job was $35,000.

hang if an employer has no pilots, how are they going to fly???

it keeps the good operators going, and forces the bad ones out.

so how about we do it!!! why dont we form a union????:E

[Next Generation]

kym I appreciated your humour, but the sad thing is that some clowns in here will think you were being serious!!!!

They are all concerned about what the company can do for pilots, but care little about what the pilots can do for the company.

[kym]

hang I was being serious about pilots striking if they were not getting paid by their company the amount they deserved.
why should the company CEO drive around in a BMW while we hold onto three jobs to get by each week.

strike strike strike the bad companys out of business!!!!!!:E

[rockarpee]

Most of the CEO's I worked for in GA drove the same type of car I drove around in, Mind u it was PNG;)

[OpsNormal]

I put this viewpoint forward as someone who has (albeit not in this industry, but I can certainly draw parallels between my first and this one), run/owned a business at one time or another.

I would hazard a wild guess and say that there would hardly be a person in the entire workforce across the country who wouldn't possibly like to earn more per pay period than they presently do. I feel most would agree with this, however I will stand here to be corrected if I'm wide of the mark.

The Operator:

Most owners, and possibly most GM/MD's of companies (especially in our industry), would also like to see their personal company earn more also. They would also like to perhaps expand their respective fleets with newer, faster and more cost effective implements of trade to replace the sometimes expensive to repair, often unreliable (dispatch wise), a/c that are now becoming increasingly older and increasing more expensive to purchase and operate.

The Marketplace:

The marketplace is a fickle beast. It is sensitive to price rises, overseas influences (U.S $ etc), and getting value for money. To a lesser extent, it is also sensitive to service standards, maintenance practices, appearance and punctuality (in no particular order). The most ferocious tool an operator can employ to combat these issues is competition, which can take many forms.

The Competition:

OK. The market is only so big. A smart operator can sometimes find an un-tapped market, and certainly an active propagation of new markets is one way to make a business grow and mature. The remainder of operations must be devoted to encouraging the clients to spend more money, or to at least encourage them to continue spending as much as they do now, and to ensure that they spend it with YOU, and not Joe Bloggs Aero down the road (your direct competion on the airfield).

A smart new compeditor on an aerodrome will arrive with bright and shiny aircraft, a glitsy office and a price either at, or just below what you charge. This is not neccessarily a bad thing, as it keeps everyone's act 'sharp'. You have a name for yourself, and he is trying to build one from scratch. You are going to have to perhaps sharpen the quote pencil on the odd occaision, especially if you want to keep some of your existing clientel. He, on the other hand, is out for whatever he can get, and will do whatever it takes to get a return on his investment.

Herein lies one of the problems that faces YOUR boss every day...

How does he deal with a compeditor?

Does he:

* Drop prices to unsustainable levels?
* Give-in to the temptation to cut corners on maintenance?
* Cut costs wherever else possible? (employee cost base, office overheads, advertising etc).
* Get pro-active, spend heaps more money (risk), and develop new markets that his competion cannot afford to get into?
* Succumb, and give it all away, costing you and your fellow employees your jobs and livelyhoods?

Your boss is going to do whatever he can to stay afloat, you can almost be assured of that. The fact that most management teams of opposing companies will talk face to face (all smiles), and yet then scheme the very demise of each other once the other guy is out the lunch shop door is quite common. It is this mistrust of another company that is going to create a number of problem, none of which can be addressed without resorting to the illegal process of price-fixing.

As you can see, being an employer is not without it's moments, and in all honesty, I've hardly brushed the surface. Quik-eze can help, but it does nothing for the worry factor and blood pressure.

It is competition that has provided many of the GA jobs there are today, but you can also thank it for some of the conditions you now endure. There is next to nothing you can do about it, save for a severe reduction in the number of operators, which will cost possibly hundreds of your jobs. Do you really want that? Will you accept that you may be one of the ones forced to give up the dream, so that others can make a well-paid living in ALL of GA?

In some ways GA is a victim of it's own limited success in so far as low(ish) wages etc, but as I've said previously... walk a mile in your boss's shoes first.

For the rest of you, don't lose sight of the big picture.

Just a little thought prevoker.... :)

Regards,
Ops.

[RYAN TCAD]

I will say this - Look around the airport a bit, and the very two important things that most companies are playing with (apart from their dicks) when competing against each other to try and win that contract is with your wage and the maintenance that is performed on your aircraft.

Paying a pilot next to nothing and/or couple that with corners being cut in the maintenance arena, equals TROUBLE.

CASA or some INDEPENDANT body, should be looking at every single type of operating charter aircraft in the GA industry and formulating a 'base operating index/price' per type which takes into account the various forecast maintenance costs etc. Add to this, a base rate of pilot pay (once again being formulated based on type) and you have a base operating cost which would be fixed. i.e- cannot go any lower.

Everyone would therfore be on a level playing field as such. Unnanounced audits could then be made on each company and the various invoice data could be crosschecked and verified that the minimum is being charged per a/c hour flown.

This is just a rough idea, but i'm sure you get the gist!

Competition would still be there in terms of aircraft type used and service given in-flight.

Two more important things would have returned to the industry - A pilots certainty that the aircraft he/she is flying is being maintained properly, and that after that flight, they will be taking home a pay check that will pay the rent and put good food on the table.

[High Altitude]

You are talking about a perfect world! It would be great!

However it aint gunna happen.

[RYAN TCAD]

High Alt - please don't take this the wrong way, but your comment is a very pessimistic one.

Keep that type of thinking up and your right - nothing will happen about with which you are wanting it to.

[RYAN TCAD]

Oh and BTW Screw Jac - iam one of those thinkers in GA!

Bo!

[iwillflyajet]

well said Opsnormal, I could not have said it anybetter.........:ok:

Kym you sux:yuk:

and after being in your bosses shoes for a kilometre, run away and steal his shoes because he is one kilometer behind you!!!!!!!!!

[bush mechanics]

Two in together,Kym and ryan,Please explain cutting costs in maintanace,You probaly mean companys who dont factor maintance cost into there hourly rate,so when a engine comes up for O/haul the plane gets pushed up against the fence,You can see a few examples in Darwin!!!I started in GA in the late 80s and I think they were the glory days!!!Its dying a slow death!!!

[Continental-520]

TIT,

I think you've misunderstood the message being communicated, somehow. None of us think that working for free/below award is anywhere near ideal.
Isn't your present situation better than not having a job at all?

Although I've never really had anything to do with NAC, who I assume you work for, I would imagine that they, along with most other operators out there would pay you in accordance with the stipulations if they could. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) And you might think "they can!!". If they up'd your pay, the work would decrease due to the competition being cheaper, so you'd end up with roughly the same money in the hand at the end of the week anyway. At least at the present rate your logbook expands a little more than what it otherwise would, no?

make sure you take ex employers to task for unpaid award wages

Not the sort of reputation you want in such a small industry, surely?

Not having a go, just trying to put forward a different angle.


520.

[OpsNormal]

TIT, I'm sorry that you seem to have missed the fairly simple point (or decided to ignore it completely), of what my understanding of some of the problems facing GA are. If I put it in language that wasn't quite simple enough for you to understand, then I apologise. Let me simplify it a bit....

The Then...

* Market = size 'X'.
* A few operators making a decent income.
* Quite a few flightcrew, perhaps making enough to get by.

The Now...

* Market = still size 'X', with maybe a bit more here and there.
* A heap more operators, all vying for their bit of the action.
* Perhaps a substantial increase in flightcrew, due to the increase in the numbers of operators all vying for that slice of the marketplace.

The more operators, the more flying positions, the more jobs, the more competition for that share of the market.

Continental 520 wrote:None of us think that working for free/below award is anywhere near ideal. (my italics).

Note those last four words! (IMHO), it means that hey the situation may not be perfect, but I'm doing the best I can until I can get where I want to go! Now, if I remember rightly, that was the very point made on the very first post on this thread by Screw Jac.

Ryan, I can certainly see parallels in our thinking, but there is another factor at play not yet discussed... Government policy.

You said something along the lines of: ..... formulating a 'base operating index/price' per type....

Now that IS a fantastic and very moral idea. Somewhat restrictive in terms of growth and developement (WRT some areas will sustain much higher unit/hour charges then other areas where the marketplace is either too thin to cover it, or there are operators a bit thick on the ground in that area), but at least there would be an accross the board 'standard'. Unfortunately, this would be impossible to implement, and there would be a great many who would want to be able to charge more where the market would sustain it.

Now unfortunately the way the government of these days sees things is that it should have no part in regulating free enterprise in the market place (save for our sometimes overexhuberant Authority, which is another can of worms entirely), and in some ways they are right. If an operator who is drastically under capitalised decides to set up a business, gets his AOC etc and gets going, only to fall over again very soon, whose fault is that? It is the opinion of collective governments that only the fittest survive, which can indeed make it difficult for a small operator to get his show up and running.

TIT, I'll round this one off to say that yes, I once worked for HA for a while, and yes the man is a smart operator. He gave me a base to grow, which I did to the best of my ability. I knew only too well what the score was when I got there, however it didn't put me off, and in fact made me work even harder to achieve what I did with what I had. He, and a couple of others took me to a place where I wanted to go, and we had a great time doing so. Don't forget that even though this is an "anonymous" forum, your direct allegations could be viewed as libellous. Unfortunately, that is the price we pay for living in this day and age.

And yes, I still talk to the man, for without his, and another one or two people's vision I might be still re-roofing warehouses with a permanent case of the poops because I wasn't flying.

Regards,
Ops. ;)

[Pseudonymn]

Originally posted by OpsNormal

I might be still re-roofing warehouses with a permanent case of the poops because I wasn't flying.

Tell me about it! ;)

[squire]

What a great thread!!! Way to wind everyone up, what with the coming out of retirement crack and all , what a classic mate. You should do stand-up I reckon your talents are unrecognised.......Truly unrecognised. Why when you were a boy men were real men eh:}

[MAXX]

couldnt agree more screwjac,

in any goal and any industry you must look at the big picture,the little things along the way are just obsticles to distract you when you take your eyes of the ball.

ive been flying for about 14 years now in many different roles and although ive never made it into an airline i am pretty darn close to doing what i want.

there are always going to be whingers where ever you go and to those people i say

DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM YOUR WHINGING ABOUT OR LEAVE AND WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!

(whingers find that wherever they go there is always something to complain about):ok:

[D Rate]

Ancient proverb,

Man who perceives many problem will often find source of problem reflected when looking in mirror....:E

[craven]

Screwjack,
I think your missing the point.
Not all people get into the Airlines and some people like me have to make a living out of GA. The reason wages are below award is because people like you will fly for nothing.
Maybe we will go the way of the US experience with 737 pilots earning $17000 pa. I guess you will accept this and just do it "for the love of flying" I think not !
I believe you are a product of the age of greed and self importance and it's not entirely your own fault.
Craven

[Screw Jac]

No I'm not missing the point my point is simple....

Either get busy doing, focus on the long term dividend, whatever that may be or GET OUT.

As to the future direction the industry takes, I do not know. Presently much is being done to make airline businesses viable, that includes FSC(Full service carriers) and LCC(low cost carriers). This will include over time a lower cost base whether it applies to flight crew, cabin crew or a range of ancillary inputs the together contribute to the delivery of the end product. That is the reality, whether we like it or not....

"We are not able to control all that happens to us, but we are absolutely accountable for how we handle what has happened to us"

If it is that easy to run a business and ensure everbody gets everything they desire, then take some of the undoubted "Commerical acumen" which you earned as part of your "commercial Licence" and go and do it. Make sure you let the bank take a mortgage out over all you owned and then employ inexperienced people to operate the machinery which happens to move around thousands of feet above the ground at speeds close to 300kmh......

[craven]

Screwjack,
The Airline CEO's are going to love you.
Maybe your longterm dividend might not arrive , and please don't dictate to me what I should do with my career, I just trying to make it legal.

[Screw Jac]

Long term dividend already here.......:O

Legality not in question, nor would I dictate to you how or what to do with your career. Please extend to me the same courtesy, I don't work for free, you don't know me, nor do you know my story. I do understand the difficulties a modern business faces, do you?

As to whether the CEO(airline/GA/retail) loves me, I don't know. hopefully they will because it's them that detemine whether I keep getting paid!

The whole point of this thread is to enjoy each day, don't get caught up in small stuff.

Remember "Attitude determines Altitude"- Anthony Robbins

[High Altitude]

Interesting... ;) :p :rolleyes:

[scud_runner]

Screw Jac if you have previously worked for NAC then you would have worked for free!!! I am of the understanding that NAC only pay guys to fly and the 9-5 in the office is unpaid work!!! Everyone is casual. So all the cleaning, paperwork etc etc etc was done unpaid.

I'd also refer you to your first post in regards to how wonderful NAC is and the number of guys they employ......... I feel that is a misleading statement given that everyone is casual. Sure there are 30 guys on the books however 99% are probably working at woolies, maccas, restaurants, pubs etc just so that they can get by. NAC could employed a 1000 pilots and they all do 2 hours a year. This is why guys are grumbling. Things are not as rosy as you are making them out be.

However I do think that you have a point. My question for you would be how far would you go for an employer??? Where do you draw the line on pay an conditions??

[High Altitude]

:D Your funny...

[Screw Jac]

Did work for NAC, enjoyed the company and friendship immensely!
Never worked for nuthing....Nor was I casual

Always got the job done when it could be done legally, safely and efficiently:ok:


"Scud runner" watch it with a nickname like that all sorts of characters will automatically assume you operate below 500agl!

[bush mechanics]

Hey screw jack!how u bin doin eh!!I bin miss you long time.I bin drinkin that lady in a boat in da riber by my self.I bin real lonely pella.Rubby bin miss you too.You bin still dat pilet,you know you bin ply dat plane eh.i bin see that goberment pella for dat check hey me bin charter dat big plane,we bin take all the comunity to watch dat football one.

[maxgrad]

Like watching Tennis
Some good shots but gets boring after a while:E

[imabell]

............."screw jack"............

watch it, with a nick name like that all sorts of characters will automatically assume that you step on your colleagues to get ahead.

[Screw Jac]

Imabell,

Clearly your wit outstrips your grammatical command of the English language.

As to whether I stepped on my "colleagues" to get ahead. I certainly have seen it happen, been a victim of it too. . As far as my colleagues (in the case of my former employment) were concerned, I'm sure the flying hours and opportunities extended to them (be it their first job or twin endoresement etc) could not be considered other than of benefit to them.

:ok:

[imabell]

screw.... the subtlety certainly wasn't lost on you.

[T3000]

you guys dont get it screw jac is HA. He is playing you all. Is that you that I saw at the nuts by yourself HA?

[Pseudonymn]

T3000,

Screw Jac is definitely not HA.