When to wear 4 bars or 3 bars.....

[Off road]

Do you wear 4 Bars or 3 bars on your shoulders in single(read, only) pilot Ops?

Maybe the answer is obvious but no one around me comes up with a satisfactory answer.

Maybe one of you can shed some light to the matter.

Thanking you in advance.
:confused: :confused:

[bosher]

You can wear what ever you want!!!


Try a bit of Gold rope and a sword for full effect!!

[Bladestrike]

4 usually denotes a Captain on civie street, which in a single pilot op, you are. 3 is typically a First Officer, or a Co-Pilot. If you are going to wear anything, wear 4. I was invited to a military "Flight Suit" party the night prior to an airshow and showed up with my four bars. I was pretty much the only civie there (in a navy blue military looking flightsuit (EMS)) and the four bars raised quite a few eyebrows. More than a few drunk drivers addressed me as "Colonel".

There was this engineer that got his hands on some pilots shirts with epaulettes and got some made up with six gold bars. He wore them whenever travelling in the third world, and got a suprising amount of respect.

[Rich Lee]

Off road,

Bladestrike provides a good explanation. In the civil world companies decide how their pilots should dress. When this includes shoulder boards they decide who should wear how many stripes. Policies vary with company policy.

If you are flying by yourself you are in the fortunate position of deciding what you will wear. You have worked hard for your position and there is nothing wrong with wearing whatever you believe will give you the recognition you deserve.

But there is another reason. A uniform with appropriate insignia and shoulder boards identifies you as a pilot and can make routine airport tasks much easier. This is particularly true in those countries where a pilot uniform and appropriate ID are the only way you can access certain parts of the airport. Long ago I was turned away from the transient ramp at an airport in Asia because even though I possessed proper credentials, I was not in an acceptable uniform and therefore must have been off duty and not authorized to be there. I returned no more than an hour later in uniform with four bars and wings. I encountered no further problems.

Some helicopter pilots hate uniforms and consider it in poor taste to wear one. Damn the white shirts and forget the flight suits. They prefer jeans and t-shirts. These are often the helicopter pilots who complain they get no respect and moan that they are not paid equally with their plank driving brothers. You have to decide what you will wear-don't allow others to make the decision for you.

[3top]

Hi Off-Road,

personally I do not like to wear uniforms. Sometimes however you have to. Flying tourists of a cruiseliner you mostly will have to also VIP, so if you are PIC wear 4 bars. If you are in a "2-pilot required" machine and you are 2ndIC wear 3bars. If you are certified and checked as a captain in the same machine but fly 2nd on this flight, wear 4 bars.
Of course sometimes a flightsuit is just the best choice for the job. For me a flightsuit is not really a Uniform but a special workoutfit to help ease the job.

I can confirm the stories about Uniforms in 3rd world places. Wear one and you will be called "Capitan" all dday long and doors open fairly easy.
Don´t wear it and they even forgot they called you "Capitan" just yesterday.

Try to forgo the jeans+t-shirt outfit or at least make it clean shirts and non-"worn-look" jeans.
Especially in the 2rd world jeans are not looked at as respectable clothing, make it "Docker´s"-style pants and you´re on! Beats me where this changes you as a person......but it is like this.
Also I heared from a friend, that in some Asian parts T-shirts a looked apon as poor mans clothing - you wear a short-arm shirt without a single dollar in the pocket, but you´re a step ahead!
Don´t even try to understand this!
If it is a dirty job, like some sling load or filming in remote areas can become, show up in clean stuff and change into the grungy work one when on site or near.

Most customers will take you AGAIN in ANY outfit and condition for your flying skills. However you want to make a FIRST impression and a good one. No need for a uniform but a clean look looks professional.

My 10 cents,

3top
:cool:

[Vfrpilotpb]

One bar is normally quiet acceptable, as long as there is an adequate supply of mother ruin + tonic, but dress is all important after the sun has passed the yardarm :ok: :cool:

[Agaricus bisporus]

Since when has there ever been any any doubt about the insignia of the (civvy) Captain of a ship, air or seaborne?

Mind you, since when has there ever been a question over the insignia of a Naval Captain either?

This forum sometimes makes you wonder...

[Rich Lee]

Since we are now discussing 'nautical' topics, a single Death snail can viscously attack and kill a blue whale without remorse. Although snails have no teeth, they can unhinge their jaw and swallow the whale whole. The whale is then digested in the belly of the Death snail. A process that can take a very long time and produces enormous snail turds. Neither the whale or snail wear Captain's insignia. Draw your own conclusions.

[RW-1]

they can unhinge their jaw and swallow the whale whole.

Hmm, that be why they don't use napkins eh?

Other than company rules you might have, it's completely up to you ... Personally, I like living in the bag, much easier to keep clean than a shirt/slacks combo these days IMO.

[Rich Lee]

RW-1,

I must admit to being a bag man myself although choosing socks that match has become a difficult task at my age.

[Topter]

It's not how many bars you wear that gives you the access around airports that you both require and deserve, it's how arrogant and condescending you are to the ground staff who are potentially in your way. I say wear as many bars as you think you can get away with, but more importantly wear a sneer of self assured superiority and look firmly down your nose at the groundies. Get a black BA style hat too if you can.
Course, if all that fails, then just make sure you've rung them up in advance of your arrival and jacked up all your access to their flight planning/Met etc... before hand.

[Rich Lee]

Topter,

Wow, you've got some issues.

[Up & Away]

All these years I thought it was my 'wings' that showed the world I was a pilot.


The bars on my shoulders just said I was not my own boss but a servant to someone!!

:confused:

[RobboRider]

Topter,

I found, at least in a lot of 3rd world airports in the south pacific area that uniforms and supercilleous-down-the-nose sneers got you the main access doorways in and out and the official places you had to go. You still got asked for 12 copies of "Gen Decs", still had to pay cash in local currency for fuel and no one knew where a photo copier or phone could be had at that time of night.

As soon as you are friendly, treat even the lowliest cleaner and porter with respect and smile a lot no matter how little they seem to be able to understand you, then things change.
They would open the door to their tea room to you, find a chocolate bar or the like when you're hungry and the need for half the paperwork suddenly disappeared. Often the only room with a phone or photocopier was locked but someone would miraculously find a key or jemmy the door for you.

Sneers never work as well as you think they do.

[Rich Lee]

I am reminded of the Gelber-Jensen controversy. Gelber reported in 1952 that the Paramecium aurelia had learned to approach and cling to a bare wire coated with food. Jensen contended that the animals were merely responding to environmental stimuli which caused an automatic (unlearned) response to cling to objects. The controversy remains as does the controversy concerning the association between wings and/or bars and a pilot's personality.

There will always be pilots both with and without uniforms or insignia who are lacking in the general aspects of decorum and deportment and for whom courtesy and kindness are irrelevant virtues. I have yet to hear any of those individuals advocating the use of 'supercilleous-down-the-nose sneers', arrogant, or condescending behavior as a method to acheive rapid customs clearance.

Now gold rope and swords have a myriad of potential uses both in and out of the bedroom.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Whether the answer lies in oversized snail turds or not it is hard to see how the original question mutated into supercilious treatment of officials in the third world, even given PPRuNe's amazing ability for "topic creep".

How many bars does a CAPTAIN wear? Heavens! Captains wear, as they always have done in recent decades, 4 (four) bars. 3 bars denotes an SFO. 2 bars an FO and one bar a second officer. Only 4 bars belongs to a Captain.

Has there ever been a variation to this in Western aviation?

Being commander has nothing to do with the number of engines, has it???

This is, however, usually accepted as applying to Professional pilots only. The wearing of gold bars by non-professionals is usually seen as in questionable taste at best.

[Up & Away]

Not so I'm afraid

There were 3bar Captains as late as the early 80s who did not have I/Rs. One Pilot 3bar Captain

It was only full ATPLs (so with I/Rs) that were allowed 4bars. In larger aircraft that needed two pilots!! Two pilots 4bar Captain!

Thats why it became a joke to see single Engine VFR Helicopter pilots wearing 4bars. Yes Egos indeed. Now you see 4bars comming out of a Robinson!!

[Rich Lee]

Agaricus bisporus & Up & Away

Intelligent discorse at last. I commend and thank you gentleman for addressing the subject in a most direct manner. It would seem from your individual comments that you are in violent agreement as to which bars should be worn by whom. The only question it seems to be who is a Captain?

I do recall the sixties, seventies and eighties. The situation regarding this matter was as 'Up & Away' recalls. There were many heated discussions during this more elitist period as to who could use the title Captain. Many airline pilots held the opinion that no helicopter pilot should ever be allowed the title Captain or wear Captain's bars. Within the helicopter community there was a twin-engine vs. single engine criteria and an ATP vs CPL dispute. There were even arguments cocerning the number of passengers carried (big helicopter, little helicopter).

With no known standards or published etiquette, it became a matter of personal or company policy and until this thread, I have not seen the matter debated in by the helicopter community in many years.

As to egos; there are no egos in aviation.

[Off road]

Agaricus bisporus & Up & Away& Rich Lee

Thank you for your contributions.

As I understand it correctly then, there is no standard "rule"
for helicopter pilots to wear 4 or 3 bars when in single pilot ops.

I always thought a 4 bar helicopter pilot worked in an ATPL position but by reading this thread you can also when you work as a commander/captain in single pilot ops.

Cheers

:ok:

[Winnie]

I am in a school situation (S300CB) wearing a "bag" and four stripes (silver) and if we ever get the coveted bigger turbine machine for charter it will be 4 stripes (Gold). We use the stripes to distinguish between the different levels of certification. PPL is one stripe, CPL is 2, IR is 3 and Instructor is 4. thus we have a "professional" outlook. However, since I am the only helicopter guy, I'm the only one alowed to wear the "bag". But I refused to wear a tie in a small helicopter in very bush-like type of operations, since I think this is more unprofessional than anything else (as well as unsafe!).

I have to agree that it looks funny with 19 year old "Captains" stepping out of small airplanes and helicopters, and I'd prefer it to go either by hours or by license held ( I currently hold FAA/CAA-N/TC CPL/H and IR/H and Frozen ATP) with instructor ratings in US and Canada.
IF it was up to me I'd wear my 3 stripes until I got my ATP OR until I got my Captaincy in any company with a large machine:ok:

[CaptainEagle]

Well guys I think it astonishing that something as simple as bars on someones shoulder can arouse so much interest. Many people say that pilots in small aircraft should not wear a uniform or bars. This is rubbish. Any pilot who is being paid to fly and who is dealing with customers should wear a uniform and shoulder boards. Silver for GA instructors and charter pilots and gold for the airline industry. 4 for the pilot in command, 2 or 3 for the second in command.

If your flying aerobatics or workin the line or logging or whatever then wear whatever you like because no-one who is responsible for your income and who needs to feel secure in your skill is going to see you.

Personally I think the uniform should be secondly used as a tool for :mad: picking up girls. That's just me. Any opinions? Has it worked for anyone?

[ShyTorque]

Our company doesn't employ any co-pilots although we are required to operate 2 pilots up whenever pax are flown. We are all qualified single pilot IFR in the aircraft we operate. We both wear 4 gold bars although we aren't an airline.

It doesn't really matter much, IMHO although I might just sneer a bit at the R-22 PPLs wearing similar.

I don't get to pick any girls up as I am married and old. Shame. They all try to pick me up though. (ROFLMAO :D !)

[Rich Lee]

i don't know what the hell you just said Hank Bobinson, but you special man, you reached out an touched a brother's heart

[spinningwings]

Personally I find that the problem is having the time and money left to get to drink in that 4th Bar! .....hic!

[CaptainEagle]

The First house of worship for the church of lappos is being built in stratford out of tr pitch links, if you have any to spare they'd be appreciated.

any more news on this r55/r800? I think Tim T should come on here and either dispel or confirm the rumours.

[vorticey]

i thougth epaulettes were for bus drivers!!;)

[Bladestrike]

Flying EMS in downtown Toronto years ago, wearing the white shirt and bars (required uniform). I can't recall if we wore ties or not.

The rooftop pad for Sick Kids is right next door to the bus terminal. The pilot I was with needed to go down to the bus terminal to get a schedule for his kid. While he was doing his thing, I was just standing there when the cutest brunette came up to me and started to ask all sorts of bus route related questions. I did my best to help her out and only then realized I looked exactly like all the bus drivers milling around (I didn't think it appropriate to point out the shiny 76 parked next door). So I guess I have used my bars to meet chicks! ;)

[SASless]

Gosh Bladestrike.....think of the success you could have had if you had told the little honey you were a bus driver? You would have scored big time....

I have to take off my uniform when I go visit me Mum....it would break the old dear's heart if she learned the truth. She thinks I play piano in a brothel.

For those who think uniforms are mandatory.....try wearing yer bars and stripes in the Aleutian Islands....keep yer low cut brogans polished....while you lay in the mud preflighting the cargo hook and pump fuel by hand.....

Jeans, a wool shirt, down vest, Carhart jeans, tall rubber boots....now that is a uniform!

[Bladestrike]

It seemed like she liked bus drivers, so I certainly wasn't going to set her straight! Although I must have appeared a rather incompetant bus driver as I didn't have a clue about the schedules.

Luckily she didn't seem to mind. :)

How many guys wearing the white shirts have a big grease stain just behind the right shoulder? Not the best outfit for a proper DI!

[Topter]

What a thread this has turned out to be!

Try this one, I call it: "Neither girls nor gold bars"
I had delivered a helicopter to Dublin Airport once a few years ago and I was wearing dark blue trousers/jumper and gold bars (4 as it happens). I then discovered that my return (to UK) flight had been booked from Belfast not Dublin, so I had to get the train to Belfast. So, in order not to look like a senior Navy Officer (and a potential terrorist target) I decided that I should remove my gold bars from my jumper before venturing out in to the public. Then, whilst on the train to Belfast, this little old lady comes over to me and says, you Prison Officers will get yourselves killed wandering about in uniform, you should know better!

What are we pilot's supposed to do?
Keep 'em coming,
Topter.