Wot's goin' on with officialdom at STN

[Ivan Taclue]

I am a UK pilot based in Germany operating for a German LCC.

In the last week two things happened which puzzle me and help to raise my blood pressure:

1) I had arrived as operating crew and left thru Enterprise house.
However the door at security remained closed until I showed
my (German) pass. Is it now normal to have to identify oneself
in order to get OUT of an airport?

2) I operated into STN, leaving the a/c there for about 8 hrs, on
the A apron, dead-heading back on a company aircraft, which
parked next to us. Thru the handling agent I thought I had
arranged a ramp transfer. BAA security arrived to check our
baggage ???????, but suddently HM Immigration intervened
and wanted us to proceed thru arrivals, get crew boarding
passes from our check-in facility in the terminal and proceed
as passengers!!!!!!!
I tried to phone the senior official but got an underling who
stated "it's the regulations and these will not be changed!"
In the end we complied, but no-one even wanted to see
our passports.

I strongly feel that we as a body of professionals should stand up
and protest to counteract the ever-increasing number of job-worths and other little h*tlers and their superfluous invented procedures.

Comments?
T

[WHBM]

Just an SLF speaking here but Stansted security uniquely decided to introduce a self-appointed "rule" recently that pax could only have one item of hand baggage, regardless of the airline's actual baggage rules. So I had briefcase and computer, both allowed by the airline, and got turned round by security (not by airline staff)after a long queue.

Aparently this is all down to the huge queues you normally get at Stansted nowadays, which has led to many complaints, when you then find only half or three-quarters of the security points for pax are staffed. This was their fix to the problem - reduce what you are allowed to process!

No problem on the return leg, of course.

Jobsworths indeed.

[Ivan Taclue]

WHBM

I am sorry to see that it's not only us aircrew but our very source
of income suffering too at the hands of those nincompoops.

I now partially have to "undress" in order to satisfy those DETR or DTLR regulations, which only seem to sprout at STN.

Hence my call for action! Any support from SLF (sic) greatly welcomed.

rgds Ivan (still without a clue) :mad:

[timzsta]

A ramp transfer would have been so much easier - no doubt the flight you were returning to Germany on went late because of the jobs worths (but it would of course be down to late crew arrival, rather than airport facilities of course).

Sadly I agree with about the BAA at STN. Too many jobsworths, not enough help. Apparently we as handling agents are no longer allowed to let cabin crew off the aircraft for a cigarette during a turnaround, because they are considered a security risk should they be allowed to mix with the passengers (because cabin crew have not been searched at STN!!!!!). But then its ok for the two to mix during the flight isnt it?

BAA staff take great delight in removing nail clippers from Cabin Crew, but seem oblivous to the fact they can then get on the aircraft and get the crash axe out etc etc

But when I reported that a small vanity case size bag had been left in a dustbin (twice) no one showed up to investigate.

Then there was the BAA security guard who I found asleep on the end of a jetway in domestics one day (but didn't have the balls to report him because he was of ethnic origin and I would no doubt have been accused of racial harrassment as it was in the middle of ramadam and he was no doubt tired from fasting.......)

The endless problems with broken jetways, marshallers who turn up after the aircraft gets on stand and has stoped out of position, PAPA boards that are out by 6 ft.

All in a normal day for us at STN I am afraid mate! Recommend put it all in your journey log and threaten to take your business to Luton if the BAA don't sort their stuff out.

[146fixer]

I have worked at STN for over 4 years now as an engineer.I must say it has to be one of the most unhelpfull places i have ever worked at.I was tald as my bag went through x-ray on the way into work the other day that I was not aloud to carry metal knives and forks in my lunch box.Total stupid.I have a multi tool and by belt with two blades,which the BAA let me use and a tool box full of sharp pointy things.They are bunch of jobsworths,which you can never get to do any thing for you.Even if you are the costumer.
:*

[skeptic]

Sadly STN is stiff with the mindless jobsworths that you describe, especially in security. The idiocy of checking ID on leaving airside is only one example. Recently they (at the EH post) have tried to prevent people taking cameras airside!!!! It was well over a year after Sept 11 before they reluctantly (and very quietly) admitted that we had been allowed to carry Leatherman tools etc airside for many many months. (Pilots hijacking their own aircraft by stabbing themselves in the neck, I suppose. Oh well.) It was almost as if it cost them money to backtrack on such a stupid rule. I recently positioned thru STN as pax inadvertently carrying a leatherman and sharply pointed nail scissors in my hand baggage. It was missed! So much for "security".

True story at STN some years back;

"Wossinnat box mate?"
"This van's toolkit"
"Open it"
"Can't, no key, it's not my van"
"Can't take it airside then, can you? Might be a bomb!"
"But you let it in half an hour ago, and I've only been landside 5 minutes"
"Well it's not coming in now". Clearly a master of consistency, this one.
Pauses to check IDs of people who have piled out of a minibus to troop thru his lair. They return to the bus which drives through barrier totally unchecked inside or out, driver still in his seat. Clearly a master of professionalism too.

"See your ID mate, please"
Show pilots licence - just flown in from GA airfield (ID cards unheard of) an hour previously, aircraft sitting on apron. Show aircraft. Explain function of pilot in respect to aicraft, and relationship of airport to both.
"Thassnogood mate thassnot ID" Clearly no master of his own grey matter either.
No answer to this. Have to go to ID unit to get temporary ID in order to return to my aircraft, and to return the engineers van. Pilots licence not on the list of approved documents to prove identity, though a social security card (and I'm sure my memory is not at fault) a library card was!!!!

Upon returning to Adolf in the security post the toolkit/bomb issue resurfaced. I eventually suggested, and I quote, " If I leave the bomb under your desk and pick it up on the way out it won't have gone airside, so that will be OK, wont it?" B*gger me if the twit didn't agree quite happily to this!

So when the knuckledraggers and Faschisti at STN give you gyp, remember they've had decades more practice than you, and you just won't win.

Ask a non EU national pilot employed with, say, Ryanair and who is STN based about the 3rd degree treatment immigration give him every time he positions thru as a pax. (the concept of illegal immigrants establishing a career with an accredited major EU airline as a means of illegally entering the country is apparently not a strange one to the immigration people.) Hmmm.

(Edited to remove the interference of the politically incorrect thought police)

[Ivan Taclue]

hi timzsta, you obviously twicked who I am, but would prefer to stay incognito for the time being.

Great to see some of your stories here too. No doubt you would also benefit from a change in attitude by these characters. We can only live in hope, mate. I am preparing a letter to the Rt. Hon. John Prescott and Alistair Darling. With a bit of luck we might even get press coverage to show some of the idiotic goings-on.

:cool: :suspect:

skeptic:
great story too!!! I thought that you guys had it all sewn up, but how wrong can I be. I know of a Captain, recently deceased sadly, who got so infuriated that he decked one of these Neanderthalers (it was in DUB, though!). In the end he himself got the sack......

Keep it coming, lads and ladettes.

[Final 3 Greens]

The way that STN treats its customers these days reminds me of a hilarious scene from the Spitting Image TV sho wmany years ago.

The Tory party had been just won the 1992 election and the cabinet (portrayed by grotesque puppets) were discussing why the electorate had voted for them again, despite a raft of problems.

Eventually, they conclude that the electorate are stupid and will put up with anything; They then see a TV set and decide to throw food at it to express their contempt for the electorate.

A few years ago, STN was a good airport, with connections to places like Amsterdam and Dublin, from where you could travel on to the rest of the world. I know this, because I used it a lot.

These days, I try to avoid the place as it is just too much hassle.

The so called 'executive lounge' doesn't even have a flight monitor in it and that pretty much sums up the place from my POV.

[WHBM]

Ivan Taclue:

There are seemingly a fair number of admittedly low-paid security staff who seem to get a bit of a kick out of giving the run around to me (in my business suit) or you (in your pilot's uniform), all the while shouting "it's for security".

The irony here, from my passenger perspective is that just down the road at London City are a set of security staff who are the exact opposite - welcoming, pleasant, efficient, no silly rules, thorough in a professional way, etc. And I bet how it is on my side is repeated on the crew side. It must all be down to local management. My hunch is also that the competent ones probably find more of what they are really looking for, too.

[Final 3 Greens]

WHBM

Do you think that the expectations of the customers and the prices that they are prepared to pay also have an effect?

I love using LCY :D

[Point Seven]

Crikey, anyone would think that they are busy at STN.

P7

[WHBM]

Final 3 Greens:

I think the key is the management of the operation. There are security staff at STN that whoever runs the security operation at LCY would not give house room to.

STN more generally reminds me of a few businesses I visit, where "management" has become synonymous with financial targets, coming in under budget, etc, with little or no regard for the actual operational side.

[Stop Stop Stop]

Speaking as a pilot working for an airline who until fairly recently (through my own company's misgivings) had a huge presence at STN, now just a mere office, I can agree with all of the points of view given above.

I still dead head in and out of STN weekly and am constantly amazed by the stupidity of the security team, who clearly seem to forget the reason that they are there for.

As a dead heading pilot, wearing an identifyable uniform, well known to security, holding a STN ID pass, we are STILL asked to remove our passes as we pass through security. Why, you may ask? Because we may be confused with operating crews. I ask whether they think that the general public would prefer to see a pilot, in uniform, airside with a security pass. I am told that rules are rules and the pass must be removed. I show an official company NOTAC to the effect that passes must be worn whilst on duty in uniform and that following discussion with security management it was agreed that pilots positioning through STN could wear their ID since they were on duty. Answer, the pass must be removed. In the end, I refused, walked off and nobody bothered to stop me. Jobsworths!

Shortly after September 11th, we had a person from security come down to the aircraft to tell us that she had been told that our first aid kits had scissors in them and she was to remove them. I asked her name and she wanted to know why. Because, you have just grounded this aeroplane if they are removed and I need your name for the report. Then I asked what she thought about this...wielding the fire axe? She disappeared up the airbridge never to return!

Security are concerned that crews might possibly come into contact with passengers (God forbid) and so are forbidden to enter the terminal (you can't even go for a cr*p) despite the fact that you cleared security there prior to the first flight and are merely waiting for the third sector of the day. Then the dispatcher comes on, who has mixed with incoming and outgoing passengers all day, and that is all right.

Come on STN...we all know you have been made to look stupid by irresponsible members of the press trying to frighten the general public more than they already are, by trying to get through security with a bus ticket, or sneaking a water pistol on board an aircraft, or whatever, but at least have some common sense. Clearly a pilot working for a recognisable airline should have some clout. After all, the biggest security risk is held between the pilots hands...if the pilot wants to commit an atrocity, then nothing some security guard does will prevent it!

They ought to remember that they are there to protect ME as the pilot of an aircraft, from the general public and not the other way round!

[Ivan Taclue]

STOP x3

Very useful posting; thanks for that. I hope that more aircrew join in to make a case to present to STN management.

At the moment all correspondents will be treated as whingers, but a concerted efforts, perhaps assisted by BALPA - IPA/IPF and some media coverage might do the trick.

rgds Ivan

[skeptic]

Stop Stop, great stuff, but Im a bit puzzled. Why are security asking you to remove ID tags fer chrissakes, I thought they were the Holy Grail of "security". How can anyone ask crew to remove them? You cant remove security passes from aircrew! We get disciplinary action if found without passes visible.

Now what's all this about "forbidden to enter the terminal?" Since when, and who said so? Its news to me, never heard anything resembling this before. How could "security" have an input in this? Surely they only "follow the instructions" of the Dept of Public Conveyances, Ice Cream Parlours and Huge Pensions or whatever it calls itself this week? Certainly no one in my company knows of this - I'd love to hear more of this (great potential for cage-rattling here!)

As you said, the greatest threat is between the pilot's hands. Hopefully this is not due to his despairing grasp on the scrawny neck of some mindless jobsworth in the "security" post!

[khasabman]

What is just as surprising is that anyone can walk unchallenged through the "out of hours" entrance into Enterprise house. OK so it's not airside but absolutely anyone can gain access to offices/crews in the building. However you do have to show your pass to get back into the building from airside.
Let's not allow common sense to interfere with "security".

[Airbus Girl]

Agree with all the above, trying to get landside through EH you have to show your pass, even if its a whole crew in uniform, and you passed through their, with the same staff, just a few hours earlier.
You also have to hide your pass in the terminal.
And I get searched every time I go through EH security. Why would I bother with a pair of scissors when I have an axe (and other sharp objects) on the aircraft?
As a passenger I had to give up a pair of tweezers but my razor and scissors were OK.
Getting off a Ryanair flight as a pax, positioning back after a long day at work (W pattern), I hadn't kept my boarding card tab. So they wouldn't let me landside. I had changed out of uniform but had my ID pass, which I showed security. He said if I was in uniform I could go through. I lost it a bit at this point, held the queue up, made a big fuss and suggested, did he want me to get my uniform and change into right here, just so that I could get from airside (a security area for which I had a pass) to landside? I suggested I would just turn around, go back on the apron and get on the crew bus and enter through Enterprise House. In the end he let me through!

Do these people have no training?

[Hartington]

Is it to politically incorrect to point out that Stansted Airport is in Essex?

[StressFree]

Hartington,
And your point is?

:confused:

[B737NG]

I still remember the nonsense in STN when I walked in and out
there. That was before 11th Sept. 2001. I had some serious
discusses with HM security. Just imagine the elevation those
people got, yesterday some grilled burgers at fast food chains
and today they wear a imposant looking uniform with security
sticker on it. The education of common sense is non-existent I
assume. Presently I am happy not to go thru STN anymore.
If I read all this above my memory comes back and tells me all
the hassle we had there again with the so called security.....

NG

[737-800_only!]

and for those of you working at STN now... you have to fill ut those stupid declaration forms at £13 a go so BAA can see if you have a criminal record?? bit late isn't it?

Failed policemen at STN spring to mind....

738

(dan84) :p

[Arkroyal]

STN get my prize for the most jobsworth and least helpful security folk in Europe (and the most helpfuland least jobsworth prize goes to CWL)

Few years ago, and pre 11/9 I parked a F27 on the freight apron under the ATC tower, and popped into Fedex for a coffee. passed landside, and showed pass. On return to a/c same gate was not allowed to let me back airside.

Argument brought supervisor into equation. He, to any reasoned point, simply repeated a 'mantra' that youcan'tcomethrough'ere,gottagofruvalidation.

Seething crew now walk about 3/4 mile to aircraft which was 25ft away, depart late and spend entire sector bitching about these aholes instaed of concentrating on job.

There was a rumour that STN head of secutity's pay is linked to how many staff he has. More officiousness=more staff=more dosh.:yuk:

[AVIONIQUE]

Fully agree with Stanstead being the most officious airport in Europe.Once had the biggest job getting airside to get to an aircraft with security wanting ridiculous amounts of ID (birth cert !).I had valid passes for EMA MAN and FRA Caa licence,passport and old style(non photo )driving licence,airside driving permit,full uniform and a van in full company livery.
If you think you have problems as flying crew try turning up at an airport that your company does not normally operate from to rescue an aog a/c with a non yellow backed pass,box full of dangerous tools,suspicious looking test equipment and boxes of spare parts.Little hitler thinks all his birthdays have come at once!Sends you all round the airport to get temp pass, x ray toolbox(pointless) rummage thru test equipment(whassis then?)and leaves you to arrange an escort for the whole time you are airside(even though the only eng from your company there is you)
The whole set up could almost have been designed to hassle people who are just trying to do a job,the fact that some temp worker drives through a lorry load of catering unchecked only adds to the rage.
I would dearly love to inject a shedload of common sense into these outfits and let them get on with what they are supposed to be looking for.

[timzsta]

With regard to low pay of security staff at STN, those who work on Security for the BAA are amongst the best paid at the airport. I know that in early 2002 the rate for BAA security staff was £7.20 per hour. I believe it is now £9 per hour.

As a dispatcher my rate of pay is less than £6 per hour.

Not grumbling at my pay - just pointing out the BAA staff have a much better rate of pay then the vast majority of other folks working in the airport. They are not, comparitively speaking "low paid".

Oh another thing. When Buzz was about to close, many of us had "staff tickets" and such like to use. So a big group of us got together and decided to go to AMS for the day (beer, food, sex meseums etc). Of course we had our STN passes on us (so we could get into the car park). But would the BAA let us through the staff security channel (10 less people to search at main security, we are staff at the airport - surely some perks of not having to que for an hour at security?). No. Despite it being the same x-ray machine for our bags, the same arch walkway metal detector, same body search - the answer is no. Very helpfull. So we all made a point of walking through the arch with coins in our pockets so we would have to be body searched - hence slowing down the process!!!

Oh another thing - the road that runs under the terminal at STN - there are no access controls at all (apart from when a certain airline is in).

[outofsynch]

Well Timzsta. youve really done it now. I hope BAA revoke your ID card... then your job. Everyone here is complaining about the unnecessary secirity at STN, so you decide to publish simple instructiuons on how to kill a few of your workmates. Some friend!

I have actually noticed security blocking the undercroft to check vehicles recently.

Whilst being no friend of STN security, I would like to provide a bit of balance to the above arguments.

ID cards are required entering EH airside, not for airport security, but for immigration control. Walking into EH from a flight, is far easier than clinging to the underside of Eurostar. I dont mind it a bit. Going airside security is somewhat over the top I agree.

What I cant understand, is the logic, in this day and age, of CAA not putting photos on Pilots Licences. The simplest process to provide far more security than 100 green Hitlers.

[timzsta]

Point taken out of synch - so I have edited the post. I work up in a bad mood, and fancied a rant!!! Neway - it would take an Al Qeada operative about 3 or 4 hours of "casing the joint" so to speak, to work out the plan I posted. But being reasonably sensible and willing to take on board the views of others, I have edited the post.

[Ivan Taclue]

out-of-synch

But herein lies the rub. How many illegal immigrants would know how to get out of the jetway, or sprint away from the steps, don a yellow jacket and find EH security exit?

Besides, unless we all fall victim to the Stockholm syndrome, why all the hassle when arriving there as a complete crew. If HM Immigration are so keen to check, why not have a checkpoint there? As you know Security staff have no legal right to check passports and/or licences!

To return to my first posting: if my crew and I remain on "international sole", doing a ramp-transfer, which after all is not dissimilar to what transit pax are doing, why do we have to be subjected to a type of immigration control. I think the Schengen requirements in this case are not relevant.

Thanks anyway for providing some counter-arguments. Ivan T.

[NigelOnDraft]

May I suggest all operating through STN to carry a print out of this thread, and then, ahhhh, "drop/leave" it at the security point....

Won't make the "service" any better, but will let you leave STN with a smile on your face!

NoD

PS Suggest you edit out the last few posts - inc mine!

[go_edw]

NigelOnDraft ,

Nice one! STN is the MOST staff unfriendly airport. If you show your ID card to nip around into FAST TRACK or the staff point when positioning or jumping onto a flight after work a jobs worth will always try and stop you. Yet when I flew out of LHR (on holiday) a few months ago the security channels where packed- I showed my ID card and a lady at fast track was more than willing to let me through and have a quick chat!

When on Duty the security personnel will even try and take camera off crews! Why? You can nip up into the terminal and buy anything from a disposable to a 6MB pixel digital camera!

Its a pity, STN is a GREAT airport, fantastic terminal, Links to London etc- it just needs to be more staff friendly!
:cool:

[felah]

A point that may be of interest to some.
When operating on the other side of the airport, carrying horses, ther appears to be no security checks whatsoever for the peolpe accompanying the horses. They drive up land side, take the horses through a small shed and board the aircraft. The other interesting thing is that many of these horses are from the M.E. as are the handlers.
Meanwhile, the crew have to go through all the above mentioned nausea over at Enterprise House!:confused:

[kriskross]

'Fraid it's not only STN!!!

At LPL the other day, going through as crew for a flight, I presented my ID to be swiped at Security. I have one of those nice Boeing holders, with a long elasticated thread, enabling it to be swiped and checked, without the inconvenience of physically taking it out of the holder.

I was told in no uncertain terms that it had to be removed, I have been using the same holder for the last 3 years, as it might be a fake and I had a real one hidden behind. ' Think about it, mate!!'.

It would have been more believable if the guy had actually looked at my ID to confirm it really was me, instead of just swiping it!!! I didn't need one hiding at the back.

[Jordan D]

fantastic terminal, Links to London etc-

go_edw,

I hate to say it (and please don't falme me for speaking out of turn), but STN's connections to London are patchy at best. WAGN who operate the Stanstead Express are forever providing replacement bus services whilst they do work on the line, and when the trains do operate, they stop far to early, meaning that passengers for very early arrivals/departures are left with a major headache ...

As for the terminal itself, the few times I've been there, its looked a real state, and in need of a good overhaul.

Jordan

[LGS6753]

So why not get your lcc to operate into LTN instead?

Chris

[AJ]

The Stansted "Express" is a joke. As has been mentioned, bus services frequently replace trains.

The "Express" is hardly that, given it's tendency to make multiple stops on the way to Stansted. The engine broke down in one instance, causing the inevitable delays and irritated customers.

Perhaps the greatest irony is that many flights are cheaper than the hugely expensive fare charged between Liv St. and the airport.

If you are going to have an air-rail link, do it properly.

Even the Heathrow Xpress is hardly perfect - again, ridiculously expensive, and not centrally/conveniently located in London.

I can't imagine visitors to the UK will form favourable first impressions after being overcharged and underserved in this way. (but hey, I guess that's typical of the state of the service industry in the UK...)

[Jordan D]

Fair be fair, even if I've only on the Heathrow Express for free, the service is good & convient.

Jordan

[revik]

Back from hols and have read through this thread. I've no experience of STN 'security' but incidents reported in previous posts do happen dozens of times a day all around the empire.

The only answer one receives from these unfortunate people who man the security posts when they are confronted by logical questioning or reasoning is 'they're the rules' so.....

Where are these rules written down?

How do we, the pilot workforce, access these rules?

How do we know that these rules are being correctly enforced (given the variety of enforcement standards around the country)?

Why did we, as a workforce, allow these rules to be put into force without consultation with our professional bodies?

Who, in the Whitehall jungle, is the d...head who sanctioned these ludicrous rules in the first place?

Most importantly and seriously, how can we have these regulations reviewed to remove some of the ridiculous situations already descibed and reintroduce 'common sense' back into the situation. Nobody doubts the need for security measures but they must be applied by precision targeting and not carpet bombing.

[Itswindyout]

I was passing thru STN a few weeks ago as unhelpful self loading cargo.
Had the nerve to have a very light flight bag, and a lap top computer. After a very very long Q for security, I was asked to prove to the security girl that my light flight bag was light, (by lifting on one finger....I made the point!!!!)
Since when have they been employed to weigh pax bags....I could not see any weight machines near by. And having spent 20 minutes in this Q I would be very unhappy to go back to the desk and start over.
It would be my fault for missing the flight, naturally.
Then it go even worse, I was told I could only take one peice of hand baggage, I pointed out that I have one peice of hand baggage and a computer, "just like most business people". No this would not be permitted. So I put the computer in the bag, put it thru the scanner, removed it from the scanner, removed the computer from the bag, and continued on my way.
She was very very pi$$ed off.
I returned from Hamburg the next day expecting a full body search........
(Most of my flights from UK are from LTN, perfect service in security. No problems.)

Whilst venting my spleen, why at STN do they insist on giving final final final boarding calls, and show boarding on the screens when the aircraft has not even arrived on stand, thus tempting pax to ignore all future announcements as false.
There is no excuse for misleading information. This is the airlines job.

The Exec lounge, was found eventually, it is better than nothing. But compared to Luton it sucks.....
Vent over, thanks.....

[Departures Beckham]

It's common for passengers to 'hide' some or all of their handluggage from check-in agents to prevent it from being checked-in, which is the reason that they check the weight of hand baggage (however as you point out, they do not have a set of scales!). There are many occassions where passengers are sent back to check-in to check their bags, and on some occassions it has resulted in pax missing their flights. I am with you on the one piece of hand baggage plus a laptop issue ... as are the airlines.

Is STN adopting this position because of the low-fare nature of it's airlines? Are these restrictions in place to benefit the low-fare carriers who greatly benefit from excess baggage charges? With the only regular business class airlines being El-Al and Luxair (which has no room in the cabin for luggage), there will be no major objections to this rule. Or maybe they are doing it purely for the travelling public's safety.......

[Airbus Girl]

Talking about "the rules". One day, security decided that of our crew of 8, 2 had to be searched, even though they didn't set the metal detector off. When asked why, the reply was that they had to check one in every five people coming through, regardless. This was "The Rules". I asked when this new procedure had come into effect, and was told, in a most obnoxious tone, that it had always been the case.
When I pointed out that that was the first time in 5 years that I had heard of it or seen "the rule" enforced, well, I was expecting a full strip down!!! I thought the lady at security was going to explode.
Next day, everything back to normal. She was wrong (surely not!).
But why get angry with me? I was being very nice, just asking out of interest, and she, having been in the job all of 5 minutes probably, couldn't even be civil.

[Jordan D]

My other big gripe with STN is when El Al operate the rest of the airport seems to stop to give them a wide berth. It annoys me beyond words.

Jordan

[Departures Beckham]

Here are a few answers:

1 IN 5: I've heard of the random search of one in five people before, and believe it is because the walkway's only pick up metal objects and therefore an item made of anything else will not be picked up. As for not experiencing it before, I imagine that's because the Validation Points always seem to be a little more 'relaxed'.

TERMINAL FINAL CALLS: All announcements in the terminal are made by the airport information desks. Handling agents submit a requst to them for the call, and within a few minutes it will be made. In general it will be the agents at the gate who call their controller to request the final call, and therefore the actual announcement will not be made until boarding has at least started. I do however know that one handling agent automatically submits a final call request when check-in closes, meaning that often the calls are made before the aircraft is on stand, and there have been times when final calls are made for delayed flights.

GATE FINAL CALLS: I'm with you on this one. I'll always do 'further calls' and then one final call. It always makes me laugh when I hear a colleague say 'Once again, a final boading call.....'

INFORMATION SCREENS: It is true that the FIS's update automatically, for most flights you get 'GO TO GATE' at -60, 'BOARDING' at -30, and 'FINAL CALL' at -15. To overide these messages takes a few clicks of a mouse, but this does mean that all future updates must be made manually as the automatic update is cancelled. A culture now exists whereby it is thought to be okay to put a flight on boarding and final call early to get passengers to the gates early. I have arrived at departure gates to board a flight and found that the dispatcher has had the flight on Final Call from -52. Customer service is dropping, and i don't think punctualty is benefiting. I think it starting to get to the stage where passengers realise that it is false information and will instead keep to their own schedule.


ON A SEPERATE ISSUE: I've been working at STN for three years for the same handling agent, but am moving over to a different handling agent next week. I will have the same airside access as I have always had, yet I am required to take the same five year background check as I did before (and wait while that takes place), even though the only change to my airside pass will be the employer name. Confused.

[Itswindyout]

Just think of it passengers actually telling porkies to check in staff.

As to final final, final call, and bags will be off loaded.....last month I saw and heard the announcment being made, and there still were no pax actually being permitted to board....

I am sitting in the Lounge in LTN, with a cold beer, and a slice of Genoa Cake......

However STN has a better drop off KISS and tell (FLY) set up than LTN....for those you interterested the barriers are now reinstalled in LTN, but the Info desk is still closed, but there is now a special assistance desk........don't you just love the english language....

[WHBM]

Sorry to return after posting at the beginning of this thread, but have just had the affrontery to interrupt the Stansted staff by making another SLF trip to Belfast, out yesterday, back tonight (and nice flying around the t'storms, EZY crew). Points about security.

Broken glass on the ground from yet another break-in in the short term car park (Zone B), there yesterday, still there tonight. Sorry, "security", but you seem to be missing the point about what are the real security issues that impact on pax at the airport.

25 minutes in security queue. My queue turns out to be significantly slower than others. Tough. When we get to x-ray machine, a trainee is being given instruction by more senior operator, who has all the time in the world to explain points to the trainee, and none at all for the resulting delays to pax.

At gate old lady with arthritis given bollocking by twentysomething gate agent for not having presented passport fully opened at photo page. Old lady feels she has to attempt an apology. Pax queued behind look on in amazement. But pax are mesmerised nowadays that if they say anything to the security staff reprisals will be taken out on them, so nothing is said. I know this is not security staff, but whole low-cost final ID check is dressed up as for "security".

If FlyBe hadn't given up LCY-BHD I wouldn't be here.

[Jordan D]

WHBM - it seems things have changed since they days of GO ... its a shame, as there service was considerably better than that of EZY ... although I've had no real problems with either.

Jordan

[carbootking]

with every one moaning at secirity they do have to be seen to be doing certain amount of things asking silly questions body searches by the department of transport or some government body. if they r being watched and they let every one through someone gets a bolloicking i went through vp8 the other day just to find an empty loo and got a body search which i thought was unusuall as the buzzer never went off and i even new the guard as theres lots of new guards being trained i think they have to be seen to do things . i know on fragile belt they r suppsoe to check hand search every 10 bags going through and get the pax to sign

[FastJet Wannabe]

I agree entirely with the comments made about the "this is a very last and very final boarding call for....." announcements. They make me cringe too!

From the gate agents perspective I can understand, however, that they have little information regarding when the gate WILL actually shut, therefore making a "final call" nearly impossible to time. Each dispatcher will vary the point in time when they decide to off load the passengers in question - depending on circumstances.

However, as Departures Beckham correctly states, "Further" boarding calls are far more professional.

As a dispatcher at STN, I am sometimes guilty myself of over riding the automatic timing system regarding the flight status. However, final call at -52 is ridiculous.

Please remember that we know (or at least we like to think we know!) the whole picture regarding the turnaround, and there may be a good reason to put the flight on final call at -10 to our planned commencement of boarding, if for one example, the flight has been allocated a slot BEFORE it's STD.

It's all well worth taking into consideration the fact that at STN it takes a good 10-15 minutes to get from the nice shops and restaurants onto the TTS (transit), and to the gate (Sat 1). I have been at the gate countless times when Mr and Mrs Late come running down to the gate with shops worth of hand luggage and countless kids only to tell the gate staff in no uncertain terms that "it took us ages to get here".

At the end of the day, every single person in the equation wants the aircraft to depart on time. If the passenger thinks they know better then they can ignore the information screens at their peril, but my advice and my request, would be to get to the gate in plenty of time and relax...

[VIKING9]

Ivan Taclue I fear writing to John Prescott or Alistair Darling will not get you anywhere. They will be far too busy to reply to your letter as they will be chartering another 142 seater to evict 5 non UK resident bods at a meesly cost of £500k: Yes, some of which was earned whilst attempting to fathom out the logic behind the BAA :{

I bet the 5 in question had a far easier time getting past the jobsworths called security :mad:

[FastJet Wannabe]

Mike Jenvey,

In answer to your question, yes there are signs in the departure lounge informing passengers how long it will take them to get to the various gates. However, these signs are small and easy to miss, and ironically in English only.

Regarding PA's, when my flight has a CTOT before its STD, I will ask the gate agents to make a suitable PA, or do it myself wherever possible.

The big 'BUT' however, is that the PA system that we use at the gates only broadcasts to the entirety of the satellite we are in. We have no access to a PA in the departure lounge or the terminal. These calls have to go through our controllers who request the PA's to be made by Airport Information. Such calls regularly take 5-10 minutes to actually be broadcast.

Another thing that amazes me at 'the millennium gateway' is the sheer number of passengers who go to the wrong satellite! Any passenger agent will tell you how many passengers loose the ability to read information signs at an airport, but the situation is getting ridiculous at STN.

I am not at the gates for very long at any one time, but on an almost daily occurrence I witness passengers who have been allowed by BAA to travel on the TTS to our satellite.

The problem they then have is that they CANNOT get back. It is impossible for a passenger in satellite 1 (and maybe 2 - I don't know) to get back on the TTS and travel to another satellite or back to the lounge. 9 times out of 10 they are FR passengers. FR do not even use the TTS (it's too expensive - their passengers are supposed to walk) and the only option we have is to call security control who will then take up to 20 minutes to send someone over to DRIVE the passengers to their correct gate.

The situation is crazy! If the BAA security guards spent less time confiscating staff's tweezers and nail clippers, and more time directing passengers at the point where you need to decide whether to get onto the TTS, turn left to get to domestic departures or turn right for the Ryanair marathon hike to their gates, passengers wouldn't get lost, offloaded, and extremely annoyed.

I'd be interested to hear any comments?

[Ivan Taclue]

Fast Jet Wannabe and all-round despatcher

Your input here greatly appreciated. I think the whole process at
STN stinks, starting at the "maze" pax (and S.L. Crew) have to go thru to get to security. Invariably I take sthe slower one!

Then there are the annoying "rules" away from the real security issues. By now pax are frustrated and vent their anger by going to all the shopsshops and have the ubiquitous Frappacino at Starbucks. The location of the TTS is not imediately clear to everyone and I do not believe pax are actually told what the form is. The more experienced pax see the GO TO GATE on screen and think: yeah yeah

FR pax particularly thick........... When going thru the terminal an Irish bloke asked where the bar was. We were 5 mtrs away from it....

Despite announcements in various languages on the TTS people are still confused at the Satelite config. Being aware of all this I always ask fro my pax about 30 mins before STD. Most of the time we wait for 2 pax missing, but as you know, sometimes we surprise ourselves. Keep it up

[timzsta]

Another example of the ever helpful BAA the other nite.

I was tasked with dispatching the AB8595 to NUE, a 737-800. Got to my stand, checked jetway was serviceable. Aircraft taxies on A12 centre and stops. Unable to dock jetway on to aircraft. Jetway then begins playing up with wheels rotating when they shouldn't be and violent lurching all the way back to parking box. I was lucky not to hit the aircraft. Finally 10 mins after coming on stand we are able to open the doors when the jetway is out of the way and steps applied (thats 10 of my 30 mins for turnaround used up).

Go onto flight deck and apologise to Captain and he is most understanding and he lets me sit in his seat so I can see that he has stopped in correct position as per the PAPA board. Then go to ramp and the ramp team leader shows me a "737-800" stop mark that he has noticed has been "spray painted" onto the centre line and we note that aircraft is about 6ft beyond it.

So I explain all this to BAA engineering and the girl on the phone says "all 737's are supposed to be marshalled on stand A12". "Where was the marshaller then?" I ask. I hear her turn to someone in her office "where was the marshaller for the Air Berlin 738 on A12?", I hear reply "didnt know we were supposed to marshall them on A12". "Yeah as of last week due to the problems with the jetway". Get the picture - nobody knows whats going on.

Anyway 28 mins after the first pax gets of the aircraft the last outbound pax is on the doors shut. But low and behold no flight plan has been filed so the delay has to go down to that and not "BAA and airport facilities".

For those that moan about "final calls" and the like when aircraft hasnt arrived yet I say one thing. It is better to be at the gate moaning about "it says final call & the aircraft isnt here" then to in a massive que at security with 10 minutes to go to departure time.

Departures Beckham - wrt your pass, it is complete horlicks isnt it. I left Buzz and started with my present employer the next day, it took 5 weeks to get a new pass, for which I was not paid and not allowed to claim the dole either.

[FlyingIrishman]

I have just about had enough with STN. I've recently moved base from DUB to STN and applied for my STN ID as soon as I got over there, expecting about 1-2 weeks for it to be processed. (like in Dublin)

It's now 4 months later and still nothing has happened. On top of the 5 years reference checks, now a disclosure form is required.

So far, I can get through the VP's ok with my Dublin ID apart from the usual abuse from the security staff. However, I recently heard a rumour that apparently from September onwards only people with STN ID's would be admitted and no other ID's will be accepted.

Surely though, that can't be right. If you are in possession of a valid airside ID issued by the employer (in my case Ryanair / Dublin) they have no option but to let you through as far as I know.

Would anyone be able to shed any light on this?

[WHBM]

Having been the second poster on this thread, I have since been amazed at the number of people who report having their daily lives grossly inconvenienced by the management of Stansted, caused by them applying incompetent rules and procedures unknown elsewhere.

These comments above are made by knowledgeable aviation people who know full well what is achieved at other airports.

Is it time now to call for the resignation of the Stansted Airport Manager and Security Manager, to be replaced by people who know what they are doing and can deliver it without hacking off their customers continually.

[timzsta]

Stansted's management were on the local radio station lunchtime news when I left EGSS this afternoon. "Stansted better equipped then ever to deal with terrorism threat" was the headline. Management said they have recruited an extra 230 security guards and the STN now has the largest security search area of any airport in the UK.

For a Saturday morning, it all went rather well for once all things considered.

[ExGrunt]

I happened to be walking through the terminal yesterday past the Easyjet check in desks. At the entrance to the queue was a large sign complete with pictures:

Cabin baggage allowance: 5KG bag + laptop.

Security Announcement: "Only one item of cabin baggage per person" :rolleyes:

BTW read in the local press BAA Stansted managing director's name is Terry Morgan - why not drop him a line. I am sure he will be very helpful! ;)

[Departures Beckham]

I was told by one of Timzsta and FJW's duty-managers today that there is a new Directors Notice out regarding taking cans and bottles of drink airside. I haven't seen it yet so was hoping that either Timz or FJW could let us all know what the new restriction is.

Edited because I have the right to edit my messages (until that right is taken away for "Security Reasons").

[FastJet Wannabe]

Departures Beckham,

I only glanced at the memo regarding drinks being taken airside, but basically it informs us that security guards are now banning opened drink containers being taken through central search and staff search checkpoints.

This, you will no doubt be glad to hear, excludes opened bottles of unmixed drinking water. Instead of being confiscated these will be thoroughly examined by a security guard to ensure you haven't hidden anything illegal in your bottle.

All other opened drinks containers without exception will be confiscated.

This apparently will ensure that nobody conceals weapons or some such other nasty inside their Ribena.

However, obviously feeling generous at the time of writing, the top security bod who wrote the memo has kindly decided that we are in fact still allowed to consume liquids airside (for the time being).

Therefore, happily, unopened drink containers of all descriptions are still allowed through security after being (and this is no lie) X-rayed and inspected by hand for signs of tampering. The inspection will of course being undertaken by a no doubt highly trained Security guard (or "Liquids inspection executive").

Believe it or not, the memo is 2 sides of A4 paper long.

Beckham, when I'm in tomorrow ill see if I can find someone else’s copy of the memo and ill put it in my pigeon hole, feel free to take it next time you're in.

I would give you my copy but I've already filed it... in the bin.

[MAN777]

All these jibes towards Stansted management are a bit one sided, the rules regarding searching of PAX are not dictated by airport management but by the Department of Transport and have been tightened recently, so much so even the Police and customs who were previously exempt have to be screened and searched unless they are carrying weapons.

Heres a good one

Theres a story going around that a firearms police officer at a southwest UK airport was asked to place his firearm and gadget belt through the x ray machine and to step through the metal detector. when asked why, the security person said "to see if you are concealing any weapons" the officer then said "if you did what would you do" the security replied "call for the police" !!!!!!

[MerchantVenturer]

".....................the rules regarding searching of PAX are not dictated by airport management but by the Department of Transport and have been tightened recently, so much so even the Police and customs who were previously exempt have to be screened and searched unless they are carrying weapons."

Who searches the searchers?

I bet the security people love searching the police - a bit like some Home Guard units in WW II who used to insist on the local policeman, whom they knew full well, prove his identity and submit to a search when he passed by their checkpoints.

UK Customs carrying weapons? Only those they have confiscated surely.

[Departures Beckham]

FJW: Thanks for that, I'll have to make sure I perform all of my diluting airside. I can understand why they are doing this, obviously there is the risk of someone hiding something in the container or of course carrying a dangerous liquid. Just as soon as they decide to give me my pass back, i'll head over to the office for that memo (send my love to Whippy!!).

It's probably worth pointing out that the guys and girls at Central Search do, in my opinion, a very good job. I've heard numerous reports of them sending pax back to check-in as there hand-baggage was to big, they were carrying tools or blades, and refusing to allow drunk passengers through ... and all of our aircraft get to their destinations.

[carbootking]

the department of transport guys r doing checks at the airport all the time u immedietley know who they r when they approach u

[timzsta]

Ivan Taclue - I understand you had no problems at STN tonight with getting away.:ok:

[FastJet Wannabe]

Course not Timzsta, I dispatched them ;)

[Departures Beckham]

FJW: As good as you are, you still can't overcome the 'woodness' of certain gate agents. I presume you didn't have 'H' on the gate that night?

[Jordan D]

going to have to have a moan at the Easyjet staff at STN ...

last week was there checking in my aged grandparents on a flight to BCN, and there was a massive queue at 6am ... the staff resorted to calling people out of the queue to check them in on a flight-by-flight basis. Check in was no problem, and their handluggage was only marginally larger (by the width of handle) than the 'handluggage box'.

No fuss was made at the desk, but when they got to the gate, the agent there refused to let them take it on to the plane, and told them to go and check it in. Due to this they were offloaded, and told to wait for the next flight ... 10hrs later. They were in quite a state, and although Easyjet didn't charge for the change of flight, it did waste a day of the holiday.

I ask: where do Easyjet agents start to care?

Jordan

[HalesAndPace]

Back from hols, just got the notice about drinks..... what :mad: numpty in DoT thought up this one? Must try to find out what prohibited items could be concealed in a drinks container - if the drink containers are carried through the pax security screen & there's no bleep, what's the problem? :confused:

Never mind that lots of dangerous/flammable items can be BOUGHT AT D/FREE AFTER SECURITY SCREENING!!!! Could it be a ploy by the LC airlines so that you have to buy their expensive drinks on-board??!!:p

From the memo:

1.1. Following a review of security arrangements, no open drink containers will be permitted through security into the Restricted Zone.

1.2. This change in requirement reduces opportunities for the concealment of prohibited and restricted items in drink containers.

1.3. The following measures will be applied at all BAA Group Airports.

2. Open drink containers

2.1. With immediate effect, airports will introduce arrangements to stop open drink containers from being taken into Restricted Zone at either staff or passenger screening areas. Arrangements will be fully effective in all areas by 0001 hours on Sunday 17 August 2003.

2.2. This includes takeaway paper or plastic cups with plastic lids (e.g. Costa Coffee, Starbucks), open soft drink containers (e.g. cartons with plastic lids and /or pierced with straws or open cans of coke) and glasses containing other drinks. This list is not exhaustive.

2.3. Persons carrying such drinks will be given the choice of consuming the contents prior to entry to the Restricted Zone or of disposing the open drink containers at the security checkpoint. Bins will be provided for this purpose.

3. Unopened drink containers

3.1. Unopened, sealed or resealable drink containers will be permitted through security into the Restricted Zone.

3.2. Where x-ray screening equipment is available, these drink containers will placed in a tray and will be subject to screening by x-ray.

3.3. This includes unopened cans of drink and screw top bottles, irrespective of content with the exception of clear bottles of water, which may be inspected by the vehicle side on external control posts.

[Departures Beckham]

JordonD Your grandparents would have been turned away from Central Search, not the departure gate. They therefore would have been turned back by Stansted Airport Ltd (BAA) security staff and not easyJet.

Staff at Central Search do regulary send passengers back to check-in for having too heavy/too large/too many bags; and if check-in has closed unfortunately pax do miss their flights. If the bag was judged to have been too big at the gate, it would simply have been tagged and placed in the hold.

Sorry .... not easyJet's fault!

[MerchantVenturer]

DB,

Is Central Search the security check? If so, why are they concerned about the size/weight of a bag as long as it does not constitute a security risk? I would have thought the size/weight was down to the individual airlines.

Given that this 'interference' does happen why are not the easyJet check-in staff aware of it and why are they not more careful with the hand luggage that they approve when passengers check-in?

It strikes me that if the elderly pax had been told at check-in their hand luggage was too big the matter could have been sorted out then and they would have flown as planned.

Surely, easyJet check-in and Central Search cannot be applying different guidelines can they? If so, no-one will know where they stand.

[WHBM]

I agree with Merchant Venturer. Size of a bag has nothing to do with security as such, unless it is so large it will not go through the x-ray. It is down to the airline. My contract for carriage is with the airline, not with BAA. If the airline finds I have more than my contract allows, it is up to them to tell me. If I have hidden this big bag from them at check-in they can tell me at the gate.

If it is a security issue then why is the "one small bag only" approach not enforced with all the high-paying F and C pax at Heathrow?

We all know the reason for Stansted special restriction. They were getting so much stick for the delays at security that, rather than deal with these properly by engaging more staff, they felt restricting the baggage allows them to process more pax per hour with the same staff. And by saying it's "for security" they can deflect any opposition.

It always seems to me the real reason why it takes so long at security checkpoints is there is no provision to organise yourself, get your mobile and keys etc out of pockets, if you need both hands (as many do) before it is your turn at the belt, thus holding everyone else up while you do so. A long table to slide things along as you do this on the approach to the belt would work wonders. Of course the Stansted pax belts have been sited too close to the entrance so this is not now possible!!

[Departures Beckham]

MV: That is exactly the problem! Central Search (the passenger security checkpoint) seem to have adopted their own criteria on the size, weight and number of allowable items. There have been reports in the Passengers & SLF Forum of people being sent back because they have one piece of hand-luggage and a laptop (which the signs at easyJet check-in say are allowable). In another case I've seen El-Al Business Class pax being sent back for having heavy handluggage (which the airline has authorised as it is stowed in a closet onboard), but the airline can do nothing about this.

There have however been many more occassions when I've seen pax sent bag with hand luggage which genuinely is unsuitable for the cabin, so in general it does work. There are however occassions where pax get back to check-in after flight closure, and we cant do a thing about it. We are not allowed to send pax through with bags tagged for the hold unless they are escorted by a member of staff all the way to the aircraft, apparently this is a DfT rule.

I believe that at LHR/LGW/MAN etc the restrictions on handluggage size are not so strictly enforced at Central Search, probably because STN is 99% economy class pax. Do these other airports enforce the 'escort to the aircraft' requirement for late hold luggage?

[Jordan D]

Your grandparents would have been turned away from Central Search, not the departure gate. They therefore would have been turned back by Stansted Airport Ltd (BAA) security staff and not easyJet.

If only that were true ... they in fact were turned back by Easyjet staff at the gate ... they say this, and further more, we watched them go through security, so I know it can't have been central search ... actually top marks to them for managing to clear such a large queue so quickly, by opening up all the access points (and thereby having enough staff), and also allowing EU passengers thru the non-EU route.

Jordan

[FastJet Wannabe]

Jordan D,

Whilst I am not implying that your grand parents are wrong, as after all, as you say you saw them pass central search, I would add that I have never seen this happen before or even heard about it.

My company shares 19 boarding gates with easyJet in satellite 1. Most of the gates are in "twos" so we regularly board flights at the same time, standing just feet apart from each other (our passengers proceed to the jet bridge, eJ pax proceed down the stairs and out across the apron).

I have never witnessed that kind of incredible lack of customer awareness before from staff from either company.

I can't speak with authority on easyJet procedures, (I’m sure Departures Beckham can enlighten us) but would hazard an educated guess that their procedure is exactly the same as ours regarding what is called 'gate baggage' - that is bags that the gate staff / dispatcher deem unsuitable to be taken into the aircraft cabin. We simply put a 'gate tag' onto the bag. These are much the same as the bag tags used at check-in, and each carry their own individual number for tracking etc. The passenger would then be asked to take the item to the end of the jet bridge / bottom of the aircraft steps, and the ramp team will load it into the aircraft hold.

I have never seen or heard of a passenger missing their flight due to gate baggage.

The easyJet staff at satellite 1 are a good bunch (and there aren't many of them - short staffed like us), I can't think of any of them that would make a passenger miss a flight over something so petty.

If your grand parents are certain that this is the reason they missed their flight, then I would suggest a complaint be put in to eJ as soon as possible, as this is unacceptable, especially for two elderly passengers.

Please bear in mind however, that the reason that over 95% of passengers miss their flight after arriving at the boarding gate is because they arrived too late.

------

Departures Beckham, Ahhhhhhhh the joys of having 'H' as your boarding gate staff! International delay code '99' - "H on the gate" :rolleyes:

I'm happy to report that I haven't had the experience recently, but now I've been so cruel, I'm dreading my late shift tonight.... :ugh:

FJW.

[Jordan D]

Thanks Fast Jet, I will query this again with them on their return to London (once again via Easyjet at STN) on Sept 11th.

Jordan

[Departures Beckham]

FJW is correct, easyJet (GroundStar) operate the same gate baggage policy; anything deemed unsuitable will be tagged and left at the aircraft steps to be loaded into the hold.

I can assure you that none of the easyJet gate staff I've ever worked with would deny travel to someone because of oversize hand luggage, unless the refuse to leave it at the aircraft size. Furthermore, it's impossible for pax to return from the boarding gate to check-in without a staff member escorting them, so no agent could possibly send them back.

-----------------------

FJW: Delay code 99 is always on standby! I've been told by the Flying Scotsman that strange animal noises are being heard across the radio, is Brendan blaming me for them?

[Sharjah Night Shift]

I agree with the ban on opened drinks containres having seen the mess an XXXXXXXXXL McDonalds milkshake made in the X-Ray machine at Phoenix.

[FastJet Wannabe]

Beckham,

Strange animal noises are indeed being heard across the radio!

No-one seems to know where they are coming from. My money is on JB, or possibly even the flying scotsman himself! Whoever it is does a very good chicken!

B is off sick at the moment and has been for a good week or more.

By the way, last night; Take 180 pax, mix with 1 'H' = Delay 99 for 10 minutes. :ugh:

------

Jordan,

I'd be really interested to hear what happens about this. If this thread has died by the time they get back please either drag it up again or send me a PM!

Thanks!

[Jordan D]

Thanks FJW/Dept. Becks .... I will either drag this thread up, or PM you both when they get back ... two weeks after that I get to tackle LHR T4, for their return to BOM.

Jordan

[timzsta]

FJW - didnt we have a flight recently with some 1 day old chicks onboard? We are short of radios at the moment - put two and two together.

I cant say I have ever had a bag arrive at the aircraft door with a manual tag on it from the gate. :rolleyes: Always have to do it myself (usually when in the middle of trying to sort out some other problem). Actually had to put in an urgent call to OPS for more manual bag tags yesterday, so many in number where the untagged buggies on the El Al that I was in danger of running out.

Must not grumble about the gate staff too much. We do have some very good ones (but then you might say I might have a biased opinion).:D