Emirates and the A380 (threads merged)

[ALLBLACK]

Want to know when Emirates get these planes will they recruite new pilots or will they ground the old planes and ask the crew to fly the A 380 heard it from a captain from EK

Prop

[halas]

Yep, he's on the money!

Come 2006;) all the current fleet of the day will parked up against the fence and everyone will get to fly shiney new A380's.

The five dozen or so B777's, A330's and A340's will be towed out toward Hata and converted into a labour camp in the desert for all the new pilots they will need to fly the new aeroplane.

However on top of that some of the hulls have been ear marked to be sunk off the coast and turned into dive sites.

Hang on, isn't that already happening?

halas

[White Knight]

Very much doubt it - only a few of the 60+ destinations that EK serves will be capable of accomodating the 380 !!

[rsoman]

White Knight
****
Only a handful will be capable?
****

Come to think of it, EK serves HYD/DEL/BOM/MAA/COK all in India. Now all of them accomodates 747s.
Yes places like BHX will have a problem, but I guess most others shouldnt be too difficult.
And (apoligies in advance as I am more a SLF than a subject expert), but I thought the A 340 600 is "longer".

Yes I know the wingspan is much more than others in service

But since EK doesnt exactly serve the local village airport ( thinking of good old Indian Airlines when I say that), methinks it will be more than a mere handful of the current lot of destinations which should be able to accept the 380s without much difficulty.


Cheers

[Fly Through]

With the amount of work being done on the taxiways at DXB I suspect White Knight to be quite right.

[White Knight]

rsoman - the main problem is the weight of the aircraft. The weight of the aircraft is channeled down a few wheels (not sure how many the 380 will have) and the pressure on the concrete that the aircraft is on is huge - and I beleive that the load will be far higher than for 747 aircraft. Hence only a few airports can accept the 380, and those that can have all done work to strengthen taxiways and runways. Saying that I understand that LHR will have linited taxi routes for the 380, so ground will have a bit of extra juggling to do.
I rather suspect that a 380 would go straight through the surface of the runway at BOM. Even after re-carpeting its like taking off from a ploughed potato field :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Point Seven]

At EGLL, there will be set taxi routes for the A380 thereby negating use of the outerat the same time - and let's not forget that they need special jetties for the upper deck doors, loading carts etc, etc...

The fact is that not everywhere can afford to adapt to A380 compliance.

P7

[rsoman]

White Knight
Thank you . I didnt consider the weight aspect at all.And yes with a MTOW expected to be about 40% higher than a 747 400 yes I concede it can be a factor.

Bu the way (this is just "over"enthusiasm from an SLF- I am not connected anyway with BUS), the Airbus website info for A380 says "Payment Loading - no worse than existing aircraft" and it also mentions 20+ wheels.

Cheers

[Fox3snapshot]

Actually weight is a factor but probably not the most critical, the tyre pressure/surface area and wheel spacing are very important.

Case in example Fighters will carve up a tarmac where a A310 wouldn't because of the fighters extremely high tyre pressure (Eg. Mirage) and its weight distributed on a very small tyre surface area. I will call my theory the"Stilletto Principal". Imagine a fat babe in sneakers verses the similarly hefty individual wearing stilletto's....the result on your foot when she steps on it whilst sharing that last dance will vary from BL**%#Y painfull to catastrophic.

:E

[apaddyinuk]

Just so those of you who may be interested, Airbus are to display one of the A380's in full EK livery at this years Dubai Air Show. Can anyone confirm if it will be F-WWOW or one of the next ones off the line?

[Fox3snapshot]

You have to be joking don't you....I mean if you have time to worry about the rego of the aircraft you possibly need to get out a little more!

The Dubai airshow is all about networking and getting into as many Chalet's as you can pretending to be interested in aviation and drinking all the "complimetary's" you can in a 15 miute window :p

Of course the 380 will be there, at least 3 airlines within a 150nm radius of Dubai have bought it and it is behind schedule...its all about "keeping up appearances"! :}

See you at the Airbus tent for a wee Chard or 6!
;)

[apaddyinuk]

Dont knock someone down for being curious foxy! :mad:

[Fox3snapshot]

Sorry mate, people chasing rego's seriously need aviation social drugs....no offence dude but...........:ugh:

[Cerberus]

Now then Foxy,

The long winter nights flash by at the Wheel Tappers and Shunters social club. We talk real aviation...spot registrations and decide how best to iron the flat cap and feed our whippets!


Cerberus

[jetAdrinker]

Hi Foxy
Check those out, BA A320 G-BUSH , and G-SPOT.:ok:

And I forgot to add, that I had beed having to much aviation social drugs ( JetAdrinking).:}

[Fox3snapshot]

Fair enough mate, just don't over do it....you will go blind! :p

:ok:

[Riker]

Recently saw pictures of the Emirates-painted A380 flying at Dubai (airshow). Beautiful looking aircraft I must say.

So, who will likely crew the A380 initially? Will the pilots be sourced from the:

1. A330/A340 due to Airbus experience
2. 777
3. External hires (perhaps high-time American retirees)

Any thoughts? Will it instead be based on seniority order? Given its limited use in terms of suitable airfields, would this even be a popular aircraft to fly (maybe 6-10 routes served total)?

When is the first EK A380 slated to arrive and what is the delivery rate?

Cheers

[CDRW]

Riker.

You surly cannot call the A380 "A beautiful looking aircraft". It may be the worlds biggest passenger jet - but it is probably one of the ugliest that Airbus have produced. Its front end reminds of the elephant man.

[Obfuscation]

Have to agree with CDRW. Only one word for the new fatbus and that is fugly. Don't want to start a slanging match but pretty it aint. Saw the behemoth close up at the air display yesterday and was very impressed with its performance. I just think that it is out of proportion, the wing roots are not sleek, the double decks make it look stubby and the cockpit stuck in the mid deck looks weird. Definitely a pregnant guppy look. Wish it could be otherwise. The C17 on display shows what you could do with a fat fuselage and still look good. Definitely not asthetically pleasing to the eye IMHO. Still a thrill to see flying though...

[max AB]

How long's a piece of string??? From what I have heard the initial training is being done by Airbus, if so they would require previous 330/340 time, ie CCQ so that would indicate no DEC/FOs. But after that, when the tng is in house I guess you could drop the CCQ requirement, run longer courses and Boeing guys would get a look in on seniority (probabley with a max age limit). It would not make sense to train to many FOs as they would soon get a command back on the 330, therefore I would expect direct recruitment of FOs onto the 380. HI time American retirees, not sure why American but I guess an age limit would apply there as well. But in reality, who will flyit? ...Everybody else...

[Charlie Murdoch]

The A380 Deputy Chief Pilot applicants are telling everybody that they have been told that the A380 will be exclusively crewed by new hires. Can anybody confirm that?

[max AB]

Can anyone ever confirm anything....? It makes sense though, If you put senior FOs onto it they will be there for a short time and then back to the 330 for an upgrade. And how better to get DECs to apply than to dangle the 380 at them.

[ratpoison]

I feel like getting all emotional !!:{

[411A]

DEC for the 380 sounds like a plan to me...keeps all the whinging EK pilots right and firmly in their proper place.
Good show!

Tin hat firmly in place for incoming....:E

[ratpoison]

Take away the oil revenue, and it's...back to the desert, Bubba, tea towel and fan belt flapping in the breeze.

Hahahahhahahaha :ok:

[L1011]

Heard this rumor had surfaced. Enough to make me stop lurking and post something.

Well that makes the decision for the senior Bus skippers very simple. The proverbial straw and camel comes to mind. Or the line in the sand. Enough is enough.

[SecurID]

IF this is true then a meeting should be called and we should be told. This represents a serious change of course and a major change to aspired career paths. If it is not true, then this rumour should be shot down immediately by management.

411A, F#@k off, you are about as welcome here as an A380 DEC.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Great wind up, don't cha love these rumours :}

411a, your about as welcome round here as a horny dog at a Miss Lovely legs competition.

SyB :zzz:

[donpizmeov]

There was a comment at the CBC the other night, from one of our longer serving Captains after reading a article from a company magazine which went along the lines of " ...there are some names of these chosen 9 that will require the company to hire direct onto the A380....". I of course had no idea as to what he meant.:}
Any idea how you post to this rumour buster thing on the portal?
Don

[critical winge]

Simple economics work. Don't pay more to get the crews, dangle the 380, hallas!! Also strong rumour that 2nd Os on the 380 fleet, which will keep the highly experienced local new boys as SFOs on the other fleets. Whats the point though of a 380 rating, where you gonna take it. All the majors operating it will have a serious seniority that you will never bypass to get in there. Better off with staying where you are. Hey newbies to EK FO, you looking at 7 years ++ to a command at the mo, probably more as there are 600 FOs waiting to upgrade, most late 30s, early 40s. Ok make that 20 years to upgrade, welcome in!! :cool:

CW

[ratpoison]

What's wrong with horny dogs ??:p

[Cerberus]

Airbus meeting said at least first 10 crews would come from the bus. They have to lead turn the recruitment so hiring direct on to the 380 initially will be a bit tricky when we don't even have the jet.

[Payscale]

Of cause the will hire DEC and FO off the street to fly the fat bird. They know we wont leave. We are still here, right....? All their crewing problems are solved at the stroke of a pen. Naturally a number of senior captains of both fleets we be invited over. So if you are not a member of the club, forget about the A380 :hmm:

[fullforward]

Calm down, ladies...don't get overexcited for just a new toy!...

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Screw EK ...........
If CX empoly direct entry to Pax fleet then all the EK F/os can go and do the same job in HK for twice the pay of an EK Captain.
Some Captains may also go to CX but there is plenty of Contract jobs offering double salary.
EK and the middle east is now only for desperates or transients a career it will never be .
Careers are in CX KA QF BA and SQ if youre a captain....

if you dont have to dont waste your time here , im leaving in six months and im happy.............

[max AB]

You don't sound happy....

[LHR Rain]

Who is? I don't know too many pilots that are jumping up and down singing the praises of EK. Maybe your polling tells you differently.

[Quod Boy]

Erm, Payscale I think you will find that 51 sorry make that 54 as of this week of our colleagues have decided that "staying here" is no longer worthwhile and the 380 hasnt arrived yet.

Keep dreaming off to the pub.

QB

[Can't think of a name]

Guys......calm down! The thing isn't here yet. There are 45 of them coming so DEC's are inevitable, BUT if you want to get on it you will, just be a bit patient. As said in another post, it's not a rating that will fullfil any career plans elsewhere: just keep logging that 340/777 time! That'll do your travel plans a lot more good in the coming 5 years!

And to the guy about "contracts on double EK Capt pay".......please advise where those are?!?! I'm genuinely interested!

Regards to all......live long and prosper!

[fullforward]

Well said, CTN!

[Vorsicht]

What the company are trying to achieve by having DEC's on the 380 is mostly about salaries. They are struggling at present to attract people with the current package and are running out of smoke screens to present under the guise of "the package".

What DEC's onto the 380 will do is attract some guys who probably wouldn't have come to fly a 777 for the salary that EK offer. But may come to finish off their career on the 380.

Just another attempt to keep "the package" at 3rd world levels for another year or two.

[145qrh]

If I were a betting man, I would say that most of the f/o's on the fat bitch will be new hires, DEC's on the other hand , well don't think Airbus would be too happy about it, as far as I know Airbus only want experienced 340 pilots to fly there baby for a while, just incase......remember nothing can go wrong with fly,fly,fly,fly

[SecurID]

Experienced A340 pilots? Where are they going to come from? SQ? CX? VS? AF? LH? The only one I can think of is possible SAA. Any other suggestions?

[Vorsicht]

Since when have airbus dictated how airlines will crew their aircraft.

Obviously for the first half dozen or so they will have to use EK crews (Captains anyway) in order to establish the SOP's and operating culture. Plus i believe that Airbus have indicated that they will only train 340 qualified guys at Toulouse for the first couple of aircraft. Once that is done, and training is in house again, it will be open slather with new hire F/O's (just like it was on the 777 and 330 when they were new) and all the DEC's they can get.

Another point that makes DEC's the obvious choice is the amount of training it saves. If you move a 340 guy over, you will have a 380 transition a 340 CCQ and upgrade on the 330 an F/O transition on the 330 and the 380.

By my calculation that's 5 guys who have to be trained. Direct entries will reduce the training by more than 50%.

Am i the only one here who thinks that EK makes most operational decisions based largely on cost?

[Cerberus]

Only operational decisions? Show me one decision that EK have made in the last 10 years that involved paying a little extra dosh to get a little extra quality. EK = Adequacy at minimum cost.

[parcival]

Wonder if anybody in EK management realises what they are creating.
As they erode Ts & Cs and this includes the continuation of the DEC program, they make the company less attractive to both current and prospective employees. The best of these people will either leave or not apply. This is already happening as documented on this site.
In time the quality of the workforce may diminish to the point that few left are upgradable so the company will only be able to fill command slots with DECs.
A case of the worse it gets, the worse it will continue to get and could make the planned expansion unsustainable.
There are only so many BA/CX retirees who will want to come here. Whilst the pilot market is growing EK will soon appear so dire few others will be interested.
In part due to DECs EK is no longer a traditional employer of choice. In time this will work its way up to the consumer and EK will no longer be an airline of choice to the passenger.
Cancellation of flights around 25th December due crew shortages being an example of this.
The other long standing Gulf airline has been brought to its knees by mismanagement. It could happen here.

[411A]

<<Am i the only one here who thinks that EK makes most operational decisions based largely on cost?>>

More than likely.
Fact is, DEC's are nearly ALWAYS the least expensive in the long run, due mainly to training costs.
Is it 'fair' to those (especially co-pilots) already there?
No, not necessarily, but just where is it the regulations/employment contracts does it ever say what is fair...and what is not?

In the case of the 380, I would expect that EK will indeed choose a few of their own, and then mainly hire from outside, as the total flight deck crew numbers will not allow otherwise.
Airlines (and their managements, good or poor) will always make staffing decisions based on what is the most benefical for the company, NOT employees.
Like it or lump it, and I would certainly expect that most at EK will fall into the latter category.

Just the way it is, and not likely to change anytime soon.:zzz:

[parcival]

411a's viewpoint of aviation in the Gulf is historical. He assumes that by necessity history should repeat itself.

The start of EK's success coincided with an enlightened Head of Flight Operations determination to turn EK into a world class airline with world class attitudes and standards and move away from the baggage endorsed by his predecessors. Example: no fair seniority system in place until 1995.

These changes gave the company a direction missing until then. This direction is now showing clear signs of losing track as the changes introduced ten years ago are being dismantled with reversion to third world T's and C's and now attracting mainly third world applicants.

No slight to people from the third world intended. Third world background does not always mean third world standards, but you will get the picture.

411a gives the impression that he is from the 'small operator ' school of airline management. He does not see the way or need for change to allow a company to grow to be a world class player. EK is changing now, but back to how it was when it was an 'also ran'.

Small operator mentality only works when there is a carrot such as exceptional salary.

In EK all the carrots are being taken away.

[puff m'call]

Who the F@ck wants to go on the flying pig anyway, hold on for the B747-800 guys, now there's a real aeroplane!

Time to read Flt Int, from the back!

[ironbutt57]

just remember the carrot on the stick is being pursued by a donkey...

[Payscale]

Hahaha that a good one...except that makes me a donkey...
I admit, I would like to fly the A380. Why not? I think a lot of people are being modest and playing it down. Just wait till it shows up next years...

About all that whinning. 4 years ago there were 35 aircraft and 570 pilots. Today there are about 80 aircraft and 1250 pilots. Obviously it is an attractive job for some. It was attractive to all of US, or we wouldnt have come. Things have changed over my four years. But those 15000 USD contracts are not easy to get.

Remember....the grass is only greener on top of a septic tank....

[ironbutt57]

You got the green grass bit right for sure...gave up on the carrot on the stick while back, seems never did get the carrot, but sure got the stick!!! :\

[Payscale]

Dont realy want to know what they did to you with the stick, Ironbutt!

[Scooter Rassmussin]

:mad: This is one crazy place.......................

[ironbutt57]

sho' enuff is.....and no u dont want to know what they did with the stick:{

[Murrenfan]

411
Pls get the hell outta here! We don't need your opinions anymore!
Mfan.

[fullforward]

Pls more and more posts, it´s funny to see all that hysterical reactions!...:{

[dxbpilot]

Emirates pilots , just interested when emirates receives its first A380 delivery. And who gets assigned to these aircraft? Do the senior A340 captains get put on these aircraft?


Will there be a second officer position on the A380 ?

cheers

[ruserious]

Do the senior A340 captains get put on these aircraft?

Yes, for the first year at least
Will there be a second officer position on the A380
Not impossible, but AFAIK not in the plan yet

[fatbus]

I think it can also be 330 only pilots , as the 330 is the base airplane and there are some senior 330 only guys.
Also I think the first 380 comes early in the new year does AUH ,DOH or BAR for @ a month to get the checkers checked

[Tail Rota]

Guys

heard it from a good source that the 1st 10 A380's will crewed by existing Airbus pilots and FATBUS is probably right ...... senoir 330 guys will be able to transition up no probs. After the initail 10...... its open to senior 777 guys.

how many 777 guys not sure but i reckon you can guess.:E

TR:ok:

[scruggs]

CCQ should allow an A330 or A340 pilot to fly the A380 with only minimal training.

"CCQ actually allows an A318 pilot to fly an A346 with only a very short conversion course as all modern Airbuses use the same cockpit architecture."

That quote was from Scroggs, a Virgin A340 Captain who I was talking to about whether he flies the A343, the A346, or both. He flies both due to Airbus philosophy/comonality.

As for when the A380 arrives, I'm not sure about EK, but I think Airbus pilots at VS will benefit from mixed-fleet-flying. I.e. they'll be able to fly the A343, A346 and the A38X.

For a 777 pilot, I presume he would have to go through a full type-rating course.

[dxbpilot]

Thanks for the replys guys, this helpled alot

[Cerberus]

The jets turn up in early 07 and as I understand it will not be CCQ compatible or MFF compatible with earlier types. That decisions was taken so that the cockpit didn't get tied to the older legacy aircraft and could include all the new goodies.

I believe the 380 will be the starting point for a new CCQ family which will include the 350 onwards.

[MR8]

Found the following article...
Seems like EK won't get their A380's before END 2007. Any idea how that looks for the upgrades on Airbus? Looks like EK has another good excuse to delay some more people.

MR8


Airbus A380 hit by new programme delay
By Max Kingsley-Jones in Toulouse

The Airbus A380 is facing another serious programme delay, but first delivery to launch operator Singapore Airlines (SIA) is still expected by the end of the year.

Airbus says the delay has been caused by “production ramp-up problems”. It is not expected to impact certification, which is due in the fourth quarter for the handover of the first aircraft to SIA before year end, but will see deliveries of subsequent aircraft slip by “six to seven months”, says Airbus. The programme has already suffered one six month delay, which was announced a year ago and pushed the delivery of the initial Rolls-Royce Trent 900-powered version to SIA back from April to the end of this year.

Other early customers affected by the new delay include Qantas and the lead Engine Alliance-powered A380 operator Emirates, both of whom were due to take their first aircraft early in the second quarter of 2007.

Airbus says the knock-on effect of the slip will be felt on the delivery schedule for production through 2007, 2008 and 2009.

[Eldin]

Word has it first 5 A380's will go to SQ.
Next 4 will go to EK, followed by first deliveries to QF.


First delivery to EK now 09/07 with official Entry into Service planned 01/08.




Keep discovering......





Cheers,



Eldin

[Saltaire]

Transition is the only reasonable solution. Offered in other first world airlines with proper training and solid canditates, which EK has. The current policy is absurd.

Another year on top of the already 3.5 years !! What a lottery this place turned out to be. :ugh:

[Tail Rota]

Have upgrades been delayed again even further....I hope this time will be used to catch up on the short fall in crew.

TR:ok:

[411A]

More than likely, Tail Rota, by hiring more DEC's.
This policy is called, keep the complainers in the RHS, where they right and properly belong.

Now, you may not like my suggestion, and I truly expect that you might not, but OTOH, I suspect you are not in management, either.

Many line pilots believe THEY could manage flight ops or training properly (to say nothing of recruitment), but past experience with several other carriers has proven this idea to be quite the opposite.
Co-pilots especially believe they 'have seen it all' or, 'know it all' but this also has usually proved to be highly unlikely.

Co-pilots are there to do as they are told...possible safety of flight issues excepted.

EK management apparently has come to know this quite well, so the present policies are unlikely to change in the near term.

As the world turns...:rolleyes:

[ironbutt57]

maybe they wouldnt be complainers if there were some rational reason for the DEC's..but in the case of EK there doesnt seem to be...some of my colleagues are headed there...hope they enjoy themselves...:hmm:

[fatbus]

411A ,.
they don't call them co-pilots anymore old buddy
if anything it will give EK some breathing room, the FO's that were delayed have been move up to Jul

[Tail Rota]

Hi Fatbus...

small post but very big news.:ok: ....I hope you are correct. I have been trying to make sense of it all and its great news for the boys if they are back on course.

Personaly I was relaxed about the whole issue as it seems to change weekly around here ....and at the end of the day what can we do about it ....... I dont want cancer :bored:


411A.....you are correct mate....I didnt like what you had to say about the other resource in the right hand seat.....but I beg to differ .....as it has been my experience ......and may I add....limited experience in the right hand seat with EK .......that we are there to ensure passenger saftey, and save a very few, from having file ASR's on yourself.


I have seen a couple of very unusual practices while sitting in the right , minding my own business as you put it.......I have had to speak out more than one time below 1500ft agl, to get the co pilot in the left hand seat to correct his trajectory.:}

EK apperas to be upgrading at the 3 to 3 1/2 year mark......now this is based on the infomation I have from guys I am flying with, who have recently been upgraded since last year. as well as the guys I have supported in the sim, while completeting the upgrade lofts etc.....

everyone has been 3 to 3 1/2 yrs.........some 777 guys have been checked 3 yrs to day of joining EK.......how do I know this.......they are personal friends of mine and recently checked:cool:

I have always said....... the DEC's are a nesessary evil at EK, and will be for the perceived future ....but its not to keep the complainers hidden inthe right hand seat ....its to simply crew planes......I hope you are wrong 411a.........and only time will tell.

In all the caos......fly safe!

The forever doomed Co Pilot TR :ok:

[EGGW]

Well actually 411a, they can't get enough DEC's, no matter what Ed trys to tell us, they are having to promote some whining co-pilots as you put it, onto the 777, as Capts because their policy is totally flawed!
Actually the policy has not been changed, they don't want him at the top to lose face!

This latest move has only pissed off the Airbus guys due to be promoted (seniority whatever that means at EK) even more. its called crisis management, nothing more.

EGGW

[Charlie Murdoch]

With the announcement that the A380 "Plastic Pig" has been put back even further, what implications for EK?

Some possibilities:

1. EK takes the A340-600 (that was previously looking very doubtful), due to lack of capacity that the plastic piggy was planned to provide (good news for AB F/Os).
2. Temporary CPA remains in position for reasons that are apparent...and not so apparent.
3. Airboos pays through the nose for the delays.
4. An imminent order for B787s to spite Airboos.

Interesting to speculate on what the other carriers who ordered the piggy will do.

[Andu]

One thing about 411a's posts intrigues me. How many Americans from Arizona call an "airplane" an aeroplane, as he does? Is he a transplanted Brit?

[411A]

Certainly not many, Andu, but I try to accomodate many of the posters here who would not otherwise understand the use of ah....American terms.

Besides...it fits in with 'aerodrome':rolleyes: :}

On another subject, it appears to me that what EK desperately needs is an audit from an outside source, as apparently, considering the many posts here that indicate big trouble ahead, the future surely looks to be quite unmanageable in the near term, what with all the 'problems' in the flt ops department.
Will this occur?
Hardly likely, as those in flt ops management are trying desperately to cover their collective behinds...at any cost.
This, as has been proven on MANY occasions at other carriers, is a lost proposition, from the start.
Will those in flt ops management wake up?
Don't hold your breath...!

[Gotyou]

Fresh from the cave!
For the first time we`ve heard EK saying that is considering cancelling the entire 380`s order if the new delay is to put Ek more than 12 months behind Singapore first acft delivery.
On the other hand, 20 747-800`s freighters are to be announced soon and will be operated with Ek pilots and not Atlas anymore.
Well...seems to be interesting times ahead!!

[akerosid]

I was about to type "20 747-8Fs - isn't that a bit excessive?", when I thought - hey, this is Emirates! That said, given that they only have a handful of wetleased 744Fs, it does seem quite a jump.

Whatever about the freighters, I'd think an announcement like this would be designed to put the frighteners under Airbus.

If they were to get 747-8Fs, wouldn't they get pax models as well; I don't know what has been proposed about the 747-8 cockpit, but I'd assume that it would have a significant amount of commonality with the 777, which would make conversion between the types relatively easy.

Although EK is apparently waiting for the A370 next month, given its overall annoyance at Airbus, is there any tiny chance that EK would choose the A370over the 787-10? Doubtful, I'd say.

[Tail Rota]

what drugs are you two on:E honestly...your shisha pipe must have had a little extra flavouring boys......good try though:cool:

[Arctaurus]

Airbus will be absolutely desperate to try and keep EK inside their front door.

Emirates is well known for screwing the last cent out of every dollar - they have no real interest in the A380 as a "nice" aircraft. It's only there to generate a profit.

Behind the scenes, I would imagine that Airbus is offering A340 600's at COMPLETELY knock down prices (and probably with Airbus wearing all the maintenance) to try and save the situation. This will suit EK down to the ground - they will end up with an interim aircraft that costs them a lot lot less than what the 380's would have done.

EK is laughing all the way to the bank, whichever way it goes. :D

[uplock]

Hey Tail Rota The guys are smokin the right stuff

International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) said it was "not happy" about fresh delays in the delivery of the $300m double-decker and believed it now had a legal case to scrap its 10 orders.

Yesterday's warning from ILFC confirms the worst fears of Airbus executives that customers will exploit the legal loopholes caused by the delays to pull out of a project already losing appeal due to higher oil prices.

Airbus has racked up just 159 orders for the A380 so far, with almost no new takers since crude prices began to surge. The company needs at least 250 sales to cover the €11bn launch costs.



Check out the news item here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/06/21/cnbus21.xml&menuId=242&sSheet=/money/2006/06/21/ixcity.html)

My money is on EK becoming mainly a Boeing Fleet.

What a Crack
http://www.webwombat.com.au/entertainment/humour/images/163cracked-window.jpg

[Tail Rota]

G''day Uplock

Surely Airbus would not allow EK to pull out of an order of 45 A380's . That would be the end of Airbus. The Arlines have known about this delay for a while and will have plans in place to cover the capacity shortfall.

However, Airbus will now be trying to minimise the loss finacially, not just over the short term, but the long term with regards to the A350/A370 potential. I think the cost to the French long term will never be known for sure.

As for the B747-8F ......well anything is posible......at the moment.... EK is still up for the A380's.....they havent cancelled anything yet....so we will have to see.

the Paris Airshow announcements will should reveal all:E


TR:ok:

[Desert Diner]

As an asside, but how do you market a double decker sardine tin to passengers?

The only way I can figure that it would work for the ME markets would be to fill the top deck only with First/Business seats and make the bottom deck virtualy all economy or with some economy+

As for the 380 programme itself, I remember watching the building of it on the Discovery channel and could not figure how they can build it as a profit making business.:confused:

I mean, barging the wing down the Severn, at low tide and then loading it to a ship for France. Shutting down whole French villages at night to road transport sections of the plane....etc. :confused:

[MR8]

TR, guess you're not really up to date with your info (last years??)

First of all, the airlines were already annoyed with the initial delay, but Airbus announce only last week an additional delay of about 8 months with a 'domino' effect for deliveries through 2009.

Second, no Paris airshow this year, you might want to try your luck at Farnborough..


MR8

[Desert Nomad]

I would think EK have serious grounds to cancel a large number of the 380 orders. They are the largest 380 customer but they will be the 3td to get one behind SQ and QF who will both get their full quota before EK get one. I would think that being the largest customer EK has some pretty serious clout to change this. My guess is that they are waiting to hear what the internal changes will be at Airbus/EADS while negotiating some pretty serious cash back/ maintenance/alternatives deals etc with Airbus. If EK cancelled all 45 Airbus would be sunk.

The implication of a second delay to EK is massive. All of the growth projections are based on the delivery of the 380. So no bonuses for the next couple of years then...

At least it may meant the 380 gets delivered when the new terminal is ready to receive them!

[Glorified Donkey]

Emirates has confirmed they WILL NOT back out of the deal. However with further delays I think it may change their mind about ordering airbus products in the future.

[Gillegan]

Even with the delays, EK will receive the 380's well before the first 747-8 is available. That combined with the absolute rock-bottomed price that EK received for the 380's makes cancellation of the order highly unlikely. On the other hand, I'm sure that Emirates will extract the maximum penalty from Airbus over this.

[Rabbitwear]

What if EK buy a squillion put options in EADS cancel their order make a squillion in the share slump, buy the company at rock bottom produce their A380 then resell or liquidate EADS , free A380s.....

[Tail Rota]

ok guys.

Farnborough will reveal all.....:E or some airshow in the very near future:cool:

TR:ok:

PS......note to self....delete Paris from top bid to go to airshow this year

[In trim]

Surely if one customer were to cancel their order (e.g. ILFC for 10 or so) then everyone else would shuffle up the production line and they'd all be back on schedule?

:D

[Aer Maritz]

My tuppence worth!

EK wont be allowed to cancell := Take a look at the new terminal 3. Purpose built for the 380, so the face saving simply will not allow it:rolleyes:

[barkingboris]

Has anyone given much thought to the effect of the further delay of the A380 on upgrades in EK.
I imagine there is much scrambling to save par in Toulouse as we speak and hopefully EK being true to form will manage to screw Airbus for a stopgap solution to the now elusive 380.
Maybe some temporary 340-500/600 aircraft might be made available to EK as a short term solution and upgrades will chug along at the stuttering pace they have been.
No doubt the powers that be will use this to their advantage to justify more Decs in some complex logic pattern that will elude all of us.:ugh:

[EK Pilot]

All DEC recruitement should now stop. All offers to DECs not yet here should be withdrawn. They are no longer required.

[Rabbitwear]

No effect on 777 still commands in six months for some lucky guys and also still running on 3 years or less , whats the problem...........:=

[barkingboris]

I agree that DECs should be halted but as you know this will not be the case.Upgrades are still being affected on the BUS fleet ,just ask the last batch of 18 and this latest 380 story will provide an excuse to EK.
WAIT AND SEE:zzz:

[Gotyou]

EK talking about 380's delays.:=
http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1150893923.html

[ExSimGuy]

(from Telegraph link earlier) Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner, a super-light design of carbon composites, will use far less fuel
Um :confused: Isn't there a few other differences? Less fuel, admittedly, but just a tad less pax!

How do you market a double-deck sardine-can to customers
Maybe a lot easier than marketing a plastic airplane (airfix?)

Now, apart from being a Brit ( :E ), I'm NOT pro or anti either company - and I fly a lot in both brands. IMHO, as a pax, I can see good arguments for both DreamLiner and A380. I hope they both do well in the markets that they are aimed at!

Boing chose to laugh at ScareBus' idea of 500+ seats, and take a different approach. But now they are pushing the idea of "higher-capacity 747". When the 74' was first introduced, they suggested that "the top deck will eventually go all the way back", but then stopped working on that idea (maybe engines back then were not up to it) but now that A380 is knocking at the door, they are back on the "Super-Jumbo" track:confused: Sounds just a bit like sour grapes to me.

[max magic]

Hiya Gents,

Just wondering ... when the 380's start to arrive will recruitment be direct onto the 380 fleet ( FO's position ) or via the 330/340 ? also approx what will be the time to command for a new FO joining on the airbus fleet in general taking into account the 380 deliveries ?

Many thanks

Max

[kingoftheslipstream]

Since the airline is about half way to its estimated full pilot strength based on its growth plan (this is a pretty large generalization so don't dump all over me for it) and we are at about 1450 pilots presently this would mean that lots of new joiners will wait a long time for command. The current wait time is about 3.5 - 4 years for the Airbus and about 3 years on the B777. At the moment...

The A380 will be crewed by a mixture of direct entry FOs, cross trained FOs (mostly from the A330 and A340), and Captains from the Airbus Fleet.

k-o-t-s

[kamaciwa]

Since the airline is about half way to its estimated full pilot strength based on its growth plan (this is a pretty large generalization so don't dump all over me for it) and we are at about 1450 pilots presently this would mean that lots of new joiners will wait a long time for command. The current wait time is about 3.5 - 4 years for the Airbus and about 3 years on the B777. At the moment...

The A380 will be crewed by a mixture of direct entry FOs, cross trained FOs (mostly from the A330 and A340), and Captains from the Airbus Fleet.

k-o-t-s

With Airbus giving full training package to EK, I doubt it is wise for the co to have a preferred group. I hope they go for bidding system, me looking forward to get my hand on the mother of the sky.... BIG MAMA.

Since over one thousand pilot leaving EK, me think me have a very good chance.

[max magic]

k.o.t.s .. thanks for your post :ok:

kamaciwa ... i dont think 1000 pilots are leaving buddy :confused:

anyone else with any more info

cheers,
Max

[Squamish]

max,
I think they will hire u and put you on the 380 right away cos everybody else is stupid and does not have your aviation skills, I am sure you will get your upgrade within 2 years on the 380.

[fatbus]

So far the base aircraft is the 330 and all 380 pilots will have to do the 330 first. That includs 777 and newhires. My guess is there will be a full 380 course coming when the 330/340 is phased out. Does anyone know what sims are being put in the new building?

[bus canuck]

Does anyone know what sims are being put in the new building?

Tech guy told me 1 380 and 1 777 to start.

[desert_knight]

The new building will have 2 x A380 Full Flight Simulators leaving two spare bays for whatever type EK finally selects........ A350 or B787.

The new B777-300ER FFS will join the B777-300 FFS in the EAC

[ekpilot]

That's if the thing gets here. Further delays expected now, but in typical EK fashion, nothing said about it yet by the office.

[mini cooper]

Airbus always supply conversions with a new aircraft, so to say that everyone will have to start on the A330 is a little rich. For the normal guys ie you and me, yes the A330 will be the starting block, but for those stellar locals in management and other immensely senior chaps who know people who know people I bet they never see an A330, they will be in the A380 before you blink!!!
As an aside it will be a breath of fresh air for the B777 fleet to transfer some of our more popular pilots onto the A380, some went about a year ago to do the A330 route, but a few of the more special ones are still on the B777waiting waiting!!!!
:p

[Payscale]

Fatbus

I dont think your info is correct. As far as I have read in one of the newsletters, the first 8 aircraft will be crewed from the Airbus fleet. Thereafter its B777 and whoever they can find.

But first they have to certify it...

[mini cooper]

I am under no illusion that the first of the fat buses will be crewed by Airbus guys, that is of course the most sensible thing to do (surprising that EK shoud be sensible for once), however what I implied was that in due course certain guys from the B777 will miraculously arrive on it without any, or maybe very very little A330 time.
watch this space.........................
:p

[mini cooper]

Those who are on the B777 know who the 'popular' ones are - just ask a couple of guys are they will all come up with the same names!!!!!
Some of them maybe waiting for the B747-8F or whatever it is being called in the vain hope of flying it.
You don't need to have flown the A330/340 to fly the A380 (unless of course you are at EK and of course EK is different as we all know),if you have flown new generation airbus before, it may mean you know a litttle more about the airbus systems but you still will just learn the A380 like any other aircraft. Nobody ever said you had to fly a B757/767 before you could fly a B777 or B744 so why should you fly the A330/340 before the A380???????
:p

[sandkfir]

Muttley mate. If you have to ask maybe you are one of them.:)

[max AB]

You have to fly the 330 before the 380 because the course offered by airbus is a ccq course.....EK will use this for the first 8 (?) aircraft then offer full conversion courses for everyone else (ie boeing). Just a matter of economics.

[fatbus]

As Max just said ,the 330 is the base A/C, until EK gets a full course for the 380 everyone that goes that direction ,even 777 pilots ,will have to do the 330 course followed by the CCQ to the 380. That could even be after the first 8, all that was said is the first 8 will be from the AB fleet.This is the same thing that is applied to the 340, has anyone done a full 340 course? No,ccq from the 330.

[Mack Tuck]

A recurring rumour seems to be the resurrection of the A346 that EK had firm orders (subsequently deferred indefinitely) for, plus further options.
These to take the place of the delayed A380.
Seems to me to make sense but can anyone confirm/deny or even shed any light on the subject?

[ekpilot]

And you know what? They will most likely need A330 DECs because of it! Why? Surely you can't have a regular flow of normal upgrades on the Airbus AND loose 22+15+? more Airbus FOs to Transition Upgrade on the 777 AND do CCQ training for 330 FOs AND hire new 330 FOs at the same time! Y'all have to understand, it's simple economics!:=
Bent over but still pinching my buttcheeks:ugh:

[cerbus]

If they do indeed put DECs in the Airbus it is high time we all leave. First we should march right into TCAS or MR EDs office and demand an explaination for this act. There is no reason to put DECs in the Airbus when a lot of FOs are looking at 4 years to command.
Then when no explaination is given we march off to Europe and get real jobs.

[MumbaiRadio]

I've heard the rumour on the 346 as well.. As a matter of fact there's one parked in front Ibn Battuta Mall already!!;) :} :ok:

[L1011]

EADS still maintains the project is on the 'revised' timeline. So EK should get three aircraft in 2007, October, November and December.

If this schedule slips and EK takes 346s, it all gets very interesting. I doubt even a tame regulator will allow 330/343/345/346 MFF.

So how will they split the fleets? All 340 types as one and 330 as another would make sense. But I pity the poor guys on this fleet.:eek:

330/343 as one and 345/6 as another would work too. No 345/6 simulator in Dubai though.

Either way the decision will not be based on logic, but the self interest of the managers involved in formulating it - naturally.:yuk:

[what_goes_up]

I doubt even a tame regulator will allow 330/343/345/346 MFF.

Why not? Was flying A319/320/321 and A330 MFF as well. What's the difference between A345 and A346? I guess it's just the length.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

What about 777-200 ,777-200er ,777-200lr ,777-300 and 777-300er is it not the same as A330, 343 ,345 and 346 no its one more for the 777....

[Ketek400]

I guess the one with the most loo''s wins!

I am lucky to fly one of these beasts pretty soon!!!

[pintofstella]

how sad are you !!!
You must not have much more in your life....

[fatbus]

the mmf thing should not be a big deal,you could add 333,342 to 332,343,345,346 and thats just the wide body side,but do you really think the 346 are coming?even another delay on the 380 of 3-6moths does not give a good reason to ramp up for the 346s.just my take on it, would love to see the 346s but just dont see it happening

[MR8]

Have to agree with fatbus..

Would love to see the A346, would also make sense on some of the new routes that are rumoured, but indeed, can't see it coming.

BTW, I'm actually interested in the REAL numbers once the 777 starts flying our 345 routes, how much cheaper will they really be? On top of that, why don't we start flying the routes the 345 was intended for, like the real ULH, eg. DXB-AKL direct, or even direct to South America or US West Coast. The 777-200LR would have the range, but what about planning a route without to many alternates for ETOPS? No probs for the A345.

MR8

[L1011]

EADS confirmed the delay today - see main PPrune forum.

EK sending a delegation for talks. Wonder what the compromise will be?:}

Well guys, looks like more fun in the sandpit. If 346s do arrive, guess What-goes-up and Scooter can run the CCQ course for the rest of us cerebrally challenged proto-pilots.

[ZigZagZog]

So was it merely just good timing for Boeing that they were giving presentations on the B747-8 this week to EK management over at EK Engineering?

Heard it was both the freighter AND the passenger ("Interconintental", I think they refer to it as) that was presented in further detail.

Bet Boeing is offering a great deal on them to give the program a real mega boost... just imagine the effect on the A380 if EK cancelled (or more likely) reduced the A380 order and picked up a bunch of pax B748's to go alongside the freighters announced...

would have to check timeframes though, so my thoughts might be a bit array...

[EGGW]

It must have been an interesting presentation. I wonder if EK management were asking the Boing guys about the significant delays and quality issues affecting 777er deliveries?? :ouch: Seems that quality has dropped as they are now knocking these out at a whopping rate. What has anyone else heard??

EGGW

[Avee8tor]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060921/emira...rbus.html?.v=3


Emirates Airlines May Cancel Order for 45 Airbus A380 Jumbo Jets Since Delivery May Be Delayed

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) -- Emirates airlines said Thursday that its order of 45 Airbus A380 jumbo jets was "up in the air," after reports that deliveries of the plane may be delayed.

Spokeswoman Valerie Tan said officials at the Dubai-based airline were discussing whether to go forward with the order.
"Things are up in the air right now. It's hard for us to say. We had such a big order," Tan said by telephone Thursday.

European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co. said Thursday that it expects further delays in the troubled Airbus A380 superjumbo program.
The company did not provide details of the cost or timeframe of the delays, except to say that it expects to complete a review of the program in four weeks.

Airbus has previously announced delays to the high-profile program, but has come under strong pressure in recent days after reports suggested further holdups were about to be revealed.

French newspapers reported Wednesday that some inaugural customers may face at least another six-month delay. Wiring problems were a main cause in slowing down the program.

Analysts have warned that more hitches could further shake current and future customers' confidence in the project. Airbus so far has booked 159 orders for the A380 but needs some 300 to break even on the project.
In June, Airbus shocked airlines by revealing its second six-month delay due to production problems. At that time, it said it expected to deliver to launch customer Singapore Airlines Ltd. by the end of 2006. Shares in Airbus parent company EADS fell 2.4 percent to 22.33 euros in Paris trading

[Fearless Leader]

Dude,
Your a little late in that story, as it has been out for about a week now and already been refuted by Emirates.

Kind of difficult to xcl such a large order, and still get A/C to replace those in any kind of expeditous time frame.

Good for rumor control though!!!!

[Fluke]

Any idea's to what may be on the cards for Emirates in regard to plugging the A380 gap. I cannot see T.C. sitting around and letting the all important airline growth stall. Compensation may be paid and cheaper airbuses delivered in the future but what are the options now. Line pilots say they A340-600's are in play again but how many of these are available. Won't Etihad,Qantas and SQ be demanding them as well. If I was Etihad management, I would be buying and parking them in the desert just to catch up with EK market share!

Seriously, though I understand 777 orders are full and with Airbus planning large layoff's what production line will have any excess?

Maybe old 744's or A340-300's ?

[ShockWave]

Got to go with the 340-6 because they were originally ordered by EK, so are probably still being built. EK would have to get priority simply because they have ordered the most 380s and AB have the most to loose if EK crack the ****s with them. I think most departments will be breathing a secret sigh of relief at the delay though.

[Oblaaspop]

'Word is' that there are 6 A340-600 production slots up for grabs in the next couple of months from cancelled SAA orders that EK are looking at!

Also a line engineer mentioned the other day that they (engineering) have been told to 'gear up' for their arrival.

As always though in this game, I'll wait to see them on the line with my own eyes before I believe it.

[aimscabinet]

Seriously, though I understand 777 orders are full and with Airbus planning large layoff's what production line will have any excess?

Maybe old 744's or A340-300's ?[/quote]

As we don't have the so-called "big picture," no one knows what was in the minds of the higher brass when they chose this A380.
They are, certainly, saving a lot of fuel and making big bucks with the Boeings and they should continue to acquire them. Perhaps, IMHO, they should just cancel this piece of junk and go for more ERs and the 748, (just three years away). The A380 might arrive, eventually; at what cost for the company no one would know. TC and co. cannot be right all the time:E

[TangoUniform]

From a business standpoint, EK needs Airbus and Airbus needs EK. With only one viable manufacturer (Boeing), no deals, no extras, no goodies, no incentives. Think of the deal EK is going to end up with if they continue with the 380 order. The airport is being built for 380s. Plus we are talking a 18-24 month delay over the 20 year lifetime of the aircraft. But who knows, maybe Boeing will give a good deal on the 747-8. See, play one manufacturer against the other.

[Gordo]

Article in todays 'Emirates Today' about Ek looking at 748's in place of some of the delayed A380's.
Any Thoughts/opinions?.

[Andu]

They ordered eight (or was it 10?) about two weeks ago for their freighter operation.

[Jolly Foreigner]

Even with the A380 delays, I believe that the 748 still wont be around at that time, so I can't see that they could be considered as a replacement for the late 380's......

[Scooter Rassmussin]

A strong rumour that a firm order for 25 A380s will remain and the other 20 converted to options.
Possible 20 (pax) 748s to be introduced at the same time.
Would be able to expand the fleet quicker with 2 separate types.

[Payscale]

Makes sense. Never put all your eggs in one basket...Boeing would obviously be happy to jump in and give replace A380 orders with B748...In any case EK will come out again smelling of roses..and money.

[Gillegan]

Even with the A380 delays, I believe that the 748 still wont be around at that time, so I can't see that they could be considered as a replacement for the late 380's......
In general I agree with you but you also need to look at the delivery schedule in total. While the first A380's will probably still be here before the B747-800 is available, taking some 74's later might help them catch up with their expansion plans. I have no idea if this is how they are thinking, just adding another possible line of reasoning to an interesting topic. I do believe that the truly salient factors affecting possible delays and/or cancellations are probably not being discussed in the press right now.

[MumbaiRadio]

They need to increase capacity soon :uhoh: so I think they'll grab :} the 346's ASAP to fill the gap (at least partially) until the 380's:ouch: come and probably cancel a part of the big order in favour of some boeing product (747-8 or more 777). :ok:
Keep it coming guys I bet TC is reading these posts to come out with a solution .... ;)

[Gravox]

Air NZ was looking to damp lease a couple of their 744s.
With their new interior they could be a good option for stop gap.:E

[akerosid]

EK (to my knowledge - apart from the ex-SIA A340s) hasn't taken on other airlines' "hand me downs" and I don't think they'll do so now. I think they'll probably go with A340-600s and no doubt Airbus will make this very sweet for them (not much of a choice).

Does anyone see Airbus having a dog's chance selling the A350 to EK now (particularly with rumours that the 350 itself might be scrapped!) What is the status of this requirement; should we expect to see the 787-10 launch before year end? Think of the deal Boeing would give EK to launch the 747-8I and the 787-10 simultaneously!

[Wiley]

This IS a rumour network... so I'll repeat what one of the senior engineers assured me he read in some online trade magazine only yesterday.

He says EK has just ordered 20 747-80s.

Now whether that's a "Chinese whisper" that's grown in the telling from the earlier order of 8 freighter 747-80s or an additional order remains to be seen.

Whichever brand of whale eventually appears on Dubai's ever more crowded tarmac, everyone can rest assured that the canny horse traders at Box 686 will screw every last drop of blood from the stone in compensation and penalties from Aerboos.

And if EK really feel the need for something big and four engined in the meantime, I'd be willing to bet Boeing would fall over themselves to dredge up a few -400's (and crews?) from the Arizona desert at the VERY right price while EK waited for the 747-80 to be delivered.

But I'd be even more willing to bet that Airbus would be willing to offer a considerably sweeter deal to EK to ensure that that will never happen.

[MumbaiRadio]

As expected the local press is following these posts... 7 days this morning reports almost word by word the news of the 6 a346 as written in our forum attributing it to a not better identified 'Commercial Pilot, Dubai' ... :ooh: Of course the article is not signed (as always) so we'll never know who is responsible of this high piece of journalism..:oh:

[ShockWave]

Can't see them going for older 747s 200,300, or 400 series. They are just to old and thirsty in comparison to the 777, 340-600 or 747-800. Availabillity of 777 is a problem and the 747-800 has not been built yet and who knows what problems Boeing may have with their build program.
EK obviously still want the big bus (they did order 45 afterall) so it's a matter of extracting compensation and replacement aircraft out of AB.
If the 340-600s are still available EK will have to go for them, minimal training and minimal spares and engineering equipment will be required etc

[Fluke]

As expected the local press is following these posts... 7 days this morning reports almost word by word the news of the 6 a346 as written in our forum attributing it to a not better identified 'Commercial Pilot, Dubai' ... :ooh: Of course the article is not signed (as always) so we'll never know who is responsible of this high piece of journalism..:oh:
I thought the same thing reading 7 Days this morning, high quality research !
I agree, if the A346's are available it would be the best option. As to compensation I have heard some rumours that Dubai may be seriously attempting to get some share of the manufactoring or assembly of new airbus types as part of their newly launched, big budget aerospace venture.
The option of cancelling half the orders and taking 777's or 748's when they come on line also has credit. One reason being the new terminal will be largely under utilised with A330,s parked at A380 gates.
Whatever happens you can rest assured there will be plenty of dispensations offered by the DGCA.:oh:

[Scooter Rassmussin]

If Airbus is forced into large compensation claims and giving aircraft away then why stay in business.
If the 350 is scrapped then the future of Airbus is grim , they may actally declare bankrupt and stop manufacturing...

[145qrh]

It's all a conspiracy...Airbus don't want to be seen to lose face by letting EK cancel their A346 orders....:} Nahh...but you never know..

" All will become clear " one way or another...


May we continue to live in interesting times..

[Hermano Lobo]

What is the A340-600 like in service with regard to economics,comfort and reliability ? I am told that with the hold full of cargo the passengers are just a bonus. Can anybody confirm this ?

Why would anybody want Avro 748's ??:confused:

Sorry mate just a joke.......:)

[Thridle Op Des]

I see that 7 Days has finally decided to use pprune as a source of unimpeachable fact, they are directly quoting off this thread today!

"That's not going to happen as quickly as hoped but a commercial pilot (!) in Dubai said "There are six unfilled Airbus A340-600 production slots available over the next couple of months..."

"An engineer at [Dubai] airport mentioned that his department had been told to 'gear up' for the arrival of these planes,"

It's now in the papers so the rumour about the rumour must be true.

TOD

[MumbaiRadio]

Rolls Royce has suspended work on engines for the A380 (source CNN).. Ouch.. Is this big airplane ever going to happen? :rolleyes:

[pintofstella]

At the end of the day look at the at the big picture... we will still be doing 90-100 hrs a month..... does it really make a difference what type of metal tube we fly. Life stlye means more so keep up the sick days or the over time which ever floats your boat..

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Well it would probably mean a lot for the airbus fos who s future is unknown.

[ekpilot]

There future is not uncertain at all. The FOs are FOs until they become Captains and that will take longer now. What is uncertain about that? If they do not wish to stay because they are having to wait longer, then they can leave. This is fact.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Your A nice ++++ ekpilot , they didnt choose to go on it the company put them there while there lucky mates on the 777 get 3 year commands. You should leave ****head.

[CAYNINE]

Obviously EK pilot is one of the morons in the left that we have to endure from time to time.

It may be an advantage to the AB guys as there isn't going to be the availablity of crew for the 346....guys already hitting the 900hrs mark and off the roster for a month.

[EK Pilot]

Hang on mate! Leave me out of this, that was posted by ekpilot, not EK Pilot!

But before you go and jump down his throat, he's actually telling the truth, but rather tactlessly. There were no guarentees of command here, just a perception that things would move swiftly along and you'd all get your turn. With the unforeseen delays of the A380, can EK be held accountable in this case? If so, what alternative career plans can they give the disadvantaged? Maybe you should use this opportunity to start communicating with the people that can make a difference to your lives, because sure as hell ekpilot can't.

[CAYNINE]

My humblest apologies ol son.. EK Pilot

I for one have never expected a command earlier or even at the 3 year mark, it was never said that I would get one at 3 years when I started, only that I must complete 3years before being eligible. So wait I will, and if the delay creates a few opportunities then that will be great for those that are on the cusp of 3 years.

But.... stupid statements like what "ekpilot" makes are either a wind up or just pure ignorance....or is that arrogance... get those two confused with some of the lefties sometime.

[jumbo1]

Caynine and co
Right attitude. As previously mentioned ad nauseum there is no mention of 3 years to command anywhere, especially in your contract (right or wrong). The fact is the company is going to do it the cheapest way for them, whether we like it or not - (mostly not) and a group are going to be p.....d off by it. For those who have been around a little longer will remember that a few years ago the airbus fleet was expanding and the boeing fleet static. The boeing guys were waiting longer for their commands than their airbus colleagues. Bottom line is just wait your turn and it will happen. If you are going to go screaming at the office staff and demanding commands etc it will not happen. Show your maturity and professionalism. The topic of DEC's, well...... None of us agree with the principle - it is WRONG. However, be angry with the company, not the individual. None of us know their personal circumstances and if you were in their shoes, you would also take the job. I also can't believe that some of you are naive enough to rant on about DEC's but when you leave emirates one day will demand to join a new company as an F/O because you don't want to disadvantage anyone in your new company who may have been waiting for a command? To all of you who are due for command I truly hope it happens soon.
Keep the blue side up fellas........................
jumbo

[MumbaiRadio]

I think this very interesting thread went a little out of focus thanks to 'ekpilot' and his remarks :D pointing out the obvious as we were all born yesterday. :*
I think delays to such a challenging program like the 380 could be expected. Its not the first time that happens (the 747 for example was delayed but it became a huge success). The a380 will come on line eventually and it will be a cool big mama :cool:. The question now is how EK is going to offset the potential loss of capacity in the next couple of years but I'm confident Ek will keep on growing no matter what because the hotel rooms in dubai must be filled and the whole show must go on. I see this temporary crisis as an opportunity to make good deals :ok: and I'm sure ek will.

[ferrydude]

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061008/sfsu004.html?.v=3

[Gillegan]

I believe that the order for 10 747-800F's that Ferrydude's link refers to is the order that was announced at Farnborough. This was just a signing of the papers.

[ferrydude]

Me thinks this is in addition to Farnborough order, or so goes the hallway talk.
Confirmation should be imminent.

[TangoUniform]

The above link is a Boeing press release picked up by Yahoo business. The opening sentence says this "finalizes" an order for 10..........So Gillegan is right, it appears this is just the signing ceremony. If it were a new order, there would be a lot more press by both parties, especially Boeing.

[what_goes_up]

EK saved the right to buy more B748's. No order yet.
Check this: http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1160348877.html

October 8, 2006

Dubai-based Emirates said on Sunday it may buy 10 more Boeing freighter aircraft worth about USD$2.8 billion to tap the growing Middle Eastern air cargo traffic market.

Emirates secured the right to purchase the 747-8F planes, it said in a statement. Purchase rights do not include agreement on price. Emirates also confirmed an earlier order for 10 similar aircraft worth USD$2.8 billion.

"Our order for the 747-8Fs will be essential in helping us service our rapidly growing network of 28 freighter destinations," Emirates Chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum was quoted as saying in the statement.

Middle East air cargo grew 5.8 percent last year by tonnage, said Emirates, which operates nine freighters among its fleet of 98 planes.

It also awaiting delivery of eight Boeing 777 freighters among more than 100 aircraft on order worth a total USD$30 billion.

Emirates ordered 10 Boeing 747 freighters at the Farnborough Air Show in July. At the time, it said the order was worth USD$3.3 billion.

A spokeswoman for Emirates could not explain the discrepancy with Sunday's confirmation price.

(Reuters)

[ferrydude]

allrightee then:cool:

[singleseater]

original order was 10 plus 10 options.
suspect this is to firm up the later. Prob can turn them into pax jets later.
As to ekpilot (not EK pilot) while there are not and never have been any guarantee's for time to command, when accel. commands and DEC's were first mentioned we were told by the management, in person, at a pilots meetinge
"No F/O who meets the 3 yr and hrs requirement will have their commands delayed by said fast thracking"
It is this blatant lying that those affected are upset about

[ruserious]

I believe Airbus are in town tomorrow to meet with TC etc and try and sort out some kind of mitigation

[ragga]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/09/news/international/airbus_ceo.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

wow.... airbus. *no comment*

[ekpilot]

I think that the presvious comments were taken out of context and I am sorry if I upset some of my friends. I am very sad to see this airline behave the way it has towards its staff. But there is still no promises as an expat and I really agree with 411A on this. He is always winding people up but he does tell the truth and the company do not give even a small sh1t towards the people of this airline. There is not one manager that will listen to you and act on your concerns. They do not care that you are not going to be a captain when you thought you would be and there is all this rumour about things like the 380, the 747-800 and when the next deliveries will be and whether we still need DECs (now we definately don't) but what do we hear from this company that cares so much? NOTHING!!! One Captain told me a while back that the managers will just keep rotating in their seats until its its their time to retire and this is what I see now.

By the way, I am not the ******** you have to sit next to, I am an Airbus FO and I know how I feel about things. I have never been a Captain and that is just the way this career has gone for me. I did joing EMirates and they did say that it would be between 3 and 4 years, but I have been upset so many times that all I could think was it will happen when I pass the upgrade course and getting my extra salary. What these people tell you is just what they want you to hear so I do not listen anymore and the people that you can talk to cannot make any decision anyway.

Sorry again if I upset any of you I am just trying to make sense of things.

[Fluke]

Good sources are telling me the extra 777's secured by Emirates to cover capacity shortfalls are not coming cheaply. Not that this has much effect on the emirates budget with plummeting gas prices but it may play into the Airbus/Boeing/Direct entry command argument.
Surely airlines such as Virgin Blue and Jet Airways where many of EK's commanders are speculated to be interested in, will opt for the cheaper alternative (Airbus). If just 20% of the Airbus Captains who say they want to leave go ,there will be enough new commands for everybody.

[L1011]

Dunno Fluke, I heard that TC bullied Airbus into giving us the 777s until the 380 comes. He reckons the 346 just is not competitive. If true, it is a helluva coup, have to grudgingly lift my cap to the Boss.:D

Someone will the 346s for sure, guess we'll just have to go there and hope we get treated better, but somehow doubt it.

[dunerider]

Why would Virgin want to take the Airbus as well after EK has knocked it back. I believe VB has already sourced a few 777's.However I imagine the ER's are in scarce supply.

[fatbus]

EK tried to get 9 777ers waited a day and only got 5 managed to get another 2 ,dont think any off them were free and not coming till late 08.So there is nothing to fill the short fall for the next 2 years unless they get some cheap buses (346s) and who cares if they burn extra gas EK wont be paying that fuel bill airbus will.Same as RR payed EK a bunch for the engine problems on the 500s

[Fluke]

L1011

I don't know who is paying the leases for the extra 777's (Airbus or Emirates), all I heard that the discounts Emirates normally swing were not in place. Whether the 346 is competitive or not was a decision asked before the A380 delay was announced. That decision (to not confirm the A346 order), would surely have been reassessed with the latest developments.

Dunerider

Again I don't know why you would select an aircraft type when it has been openly critisised by other carriers and prefered 777 option exist. There are always other factors though : getting the a/c on the national register, ETOP's approval for a company that cannot maintain it domestically, leasing/finance costs, parent company influence, availability, manufacture incentives or payments like EK gets for the A345.


Who knows everything is political these days!

[411A]

It was announced today on the local news in Seattle, that a middle eastern airline had cancelled their order for at least 20 A380's, and had decided to buy new B747's/777's instead.

Anyone know which airline?

[garry_paul18]

Atleast 20 A380's means that its a company with an order of more than 20. And there's only 1 in the ME who have oredered more than 20. Doesnt take a genius to figure out which one it is. Would be interesting to what we can do to fill up for the delays....:confused:

[767Pilot]

Emirates cancelled some A340's. Might that be what you heard?

As they have just sent a team to audit Airbus before making any more A380 decisions, I doubt they will cancel just yet.

[miss petal]

Emirates cancelled 340-600 and will lease 777 instead.

[Frozen Turtle]

Well Timmy C. is definitely looking for other options.....

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

Emirates is urging Boeing to continue studies of the longer range 747-8 Intercontinental variant incorporating the original shorter fuselage stretch, if it wishes to retain the prospect of an order from the Dubai carrier.

Emirates has ordered up to 20 747-8Fs for its cargo arm, and the airline’s president Tim Clark says the 747-8I is being evaluated to meet its requirement for a 400 seater to operate on direct services between Dubai and Los Angeles.

However Emirates is only interested in the “140in [3.5m] stretch” first proposed, says Clark, as the larger version with the “220in” (5.6m) extension which has now been adopted cannot carry a “meaningful payload” on the route.

Boeing revealed the 747-8I rethink last week, when it provided updated specifications confirming that it had standardised the fuselage extension of the passenger variant with that of the Freighter. This means that both aircraft have an overall length of 76.3m, which increases the typical three class capacity of the 747-8I from 450 to 467 but results in a range penalty of around 300km.

Speaking to ATI at an event to mark the opening of Emirates’ new lounge at London Heathrow’s Terminal 3, Clark said that while the larger, shorter range variant suits most the requirements of most 747-8I prospective customers, it falls short of Emirates’ needs, which are more focused on range than capacity.

“By our rules, the aircraft would seat 400 people on the Dubai-Los Angeles route and will only be able to carry around 70% of its passenger load,” he adds.

The original 747-8I had a 2m forward fuselage plug, while the new version’s plug is increased to 4.1m. The rear plug remains the same at 1.5m. Clark says he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions of the 747-8I “to increase the product spread within the family”.

He adds: “Why don’t they offer one version with the short forward plug and one with the longer plug?”

Boeing has previously made it clear that it only intends to build one version of the 747-8I, but says that despite now settling on the length, it is "still in discussions with airlines about what the optimal performance for the -8I from an operating cost and economics perspective”.

Clark says: “My thinking is that if we went to Boeing and said we’d order 20 [of the shorter fuselage variant], then they’d probably go for it.” Clark envisages that if a 747-8I order was placed, the aircraft could be in service with Emirates from around 2011.

[desertrats]

Emirates airline profit rises; offsets fuel costs
Posted: Monday, November 06, 2006
Dubai
Emirates said first-half profit rose by 29 per cent after the Dubai government-owned company offset higher fuel costs by carrying more passengers and cargo.
Net income in the six months to September 30 climbed to $323 million, compared with $251 million in the year-earlier period, Emirates said in a statement. Operating revenue rose 30 per cent to $3.67 billion, it said.
'Emirates has been in a strong position to tap into the robust demand for air travel globally by expanding its route network with new high-capacity aircraft,' Emirates chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum was quoted as saying in the statement.
Emirates is banking on long-range, high-capacity aircraft to tap passenger and cargo traffic from as far away as east Asia and North America through its hub in Dubai to compete with global carriers including Qantas Airways and Singapore Airlines.
The International Air Transport Association has said Middle East passenger traffic in the first nine months of the year rose 15.4 per cent, the fastest of the world's regions, according to an industry association which represents 260 airlines.
The number of passengers Emirates carried in the first six months rose by 20 per cent to 8.39 million, compared with 6.98 million in the year-earlier period, it said.
Passenger revenue rose 31 per cent and load factor, the proportion of seats filled, to 76.4 per cent, it said, without giving comparisons.
Fuel costs climbed above $1 billion, equivalent to 30.7 per cent of total operating costs, it said, without giving a comparison. Revenue from cargo operations rose by 29 per cent to Dh2.7 billion ($735.1 million), Emirates said.
The world's airlines will cut their combined losses this year by half to $1.7 billion, offsetting a 26 per cent increase in fuel costs by raising passenger load factors, and on higher passenger and cargo demand, according to IATA. It will be their sixth successive year of losses, according to IATA.
:D :ok: :)

[fractional]

Well Timmy C. is definitely looking for other options..... Source: ATI (Air Transport Intelligence News)
Why not? Biz is biz... Wouldn't you do the same?...

[411A]

Well, the first domino has fallen, FedEx said goodbye to some (but not all) of their A380F orders...I wonder who will be next?

[blueside^]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061107/bs_nm/transport_fedex_boeing_dc_3

NEW YORK (Reuters) - European plane maker Airbus (EAD.PA), which has faced a series of production delays on its high-profile A380 superjumbo program, suffered a major blow on Tuesday when FedEx Corp. (NYSE:FDX - news) canceled a roughly $2.5 billion order and switched to rival Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - news)

FedEx Express, the express package delivery unit of U.S. shipping company FedEx, became the first customer to terminate an order for Airbus' flagship plane when it scrapped an agreement to buy 10 A380-800F aircraft.

Instead, FedEx ordered 15 Boeing 777 Freighter aircraft and took options to purchase 15 more. The previous agreement with Airbus included an option for another 10 A380 planes, a FedEx spokesman said, but those options are now invalid.

FedEx said it expects to take delivery of four Boeing 777s in 2009, eight in 2010 and the remainder in 2011. At a list price of $232.5 million to $240 million each, the order will be worth at least $3.48 billion to Boeing.

The Boeing 777 Freighter, launched in May 2005, is the world's largest twin-engine cargo aircraft, but smaller than Boeing's new four-engined 747-8F Freighter.

The cancellation is a further blow to Airbus and its majority parent, EADS (EAD.PA), which have been plunged into financial and political crisis after a string of wiring delays on the A380 pushed the world's largest ever commercial plane two years behind schedule.

FedEx's decision cuts the number of outstanding orders for the A380 freighter to 15 from 25. Last month, FedEx rival United Parcel Services Inc. (NYSE:UPS - news), which has 10 A380s on order, said it had set up a team to evaluate its purchase.

The switch to Boeing is a boost for the U.S. planemaker, said Morningstar analyst Chris Lozier.

"It's definitely a good sign -- both the order and the cancellation," Lozier said. "I'm guessing that certainly they have those slots promised and they should have no problem making those deliveries."

EADS shares closed down 3 percent on the Paris stock market, while Boeing was up around 5.4 percent in afternoon trading on the New York Stock Exchange. The Standard & Poor's Aerospace and Defense index (^GSPAERO - news) was up 1.6 percent.

"The decision to purchase Boeing 777s was taken after Airbus announced significant delays for delivery of A380s," said Maury Lane, a spokesman at FedEx Express. "Global package demand continues to grow and we need the appropriate aircraft to meet that demand."

FedEx, based in Memphis, Tennessee, said it continues to be Airbus' largest wide-body airplane customer and will add new and used Airbus wide-body aircraft to its fleet in the coming years.

An Airbus spokesman said the company "regrets FedEx's decision, but we understand their need to urgently address capacity issues."

The spokesman added that Airbus remained committed to the freighter program: "We still expect the A380 freighter to be a successful program from the outset, although we did not expect demand to be very high at the start."

A Boeing spokesman said the company is prepared to meet FedEx's delivery schedule: "We are very pleased to meet the needs of such an important customer," spokesman Jim Proulx said.

FedEx shares were up 83 cents, 0.7 percent, at $114.77, in afternoon trading, while Boeing was up $4.21 at $84.69, both on the NYSE.

(Additional reporting by Chris Reiter in New York, Nick Carey and Kyle Peterson in Chicago and Nick Antonovics in Paris)

[TangoUniform]

A380 costs, delays causing headaches at Emirates

Thursday March 15, 2007
Emirates President Tim Clark told ATWOnline last week in Berlin that the operating costs of its A380 fleet will be higher than originally planned.
"There are still an extra six tons of weight we can't get out of the A380. That will cost us extra money in operation for the next 10 or 15 years," Clark said.
Emirates' 45 A380s, which constitute a $15 billion investment, each should generate $200 million for the airline annually. The weight issues are compounded by the money EK is losing because of the program's delay. "We will get our first A380 in August 2008, 21 months later then scheduled," Clark said. "By that time we should have had 18 A380s already in service, with each vehicle flying 15 hours a day and transporting 500-600 passengers. If you count that together, it is a lot of money." He did not estimate the expected costs of either the operational issues or the delay.
He did say that EK and Airbus are nearing a delay compensation agreement; "We are too important for them, and they don't want us leaving for Boeing." He said a Boeing sales team was in Dubai about two weeks ago to discuss the 747-8 Intercontinental, which Clark said he likes but which would not be able to fulfill certain missions important to the carrier, like nonstop Dubai-Los Angeles service with 400 passengers and a full cargo payload. He also said Airbus will present its final A350 XWB version to EK next month.

by Kurt Hofmann

[TangoUniform]

Virgin Blue getting big jets, now this. C'mom guys why are you still hanging around in the desert. Things really looking up in the land of Oz.

Tiger Airways gets Australian approval

Friday March 16, 2007
Tiger Airways was given the green light by Australia's Foreign Investment Review Board to proceed with the creation of Tiger Airways Australia (ATWOnline, Feb. 12) (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=7882).
Tiger said FIRB found that "the creation of Tiger Airways Australia was consistent with the government's foreign investment policy and did not place any specific conditions on the creation of the new airline." TAA now will now work toward securing its AOC.
Tiger CEO Tony Davis said he was "very encouraged by the support received from so many communities across the country," adding that TAA is in the final stages of negotiation with a number of Australian airports for the location of its principal operating base. Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide are frontrunners.
Interestingly, TAA was the popular abbreviation for domestic carrier Trans Australia Airlines, which was renamed Australian Airlines and then merged into Qantas ahead of the latter's IPO in 1994.

by Geoffrey Thomas

[Wizofoz]

Things really looking up in the land of Oz.


WEll....Everthing but the WAGES that is...:rolleyes:

[Uplink]

Out today -

Emirates is "thinking a bit" about starting a budget airline in the coming few years, its vice chairman said today as the state-owned firm announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profits. "We are thinking a bit about [a low-cost carrier]," Maurice Flanagan told the Reuters news agency. "It's something for the next few years. The [Airbus] A380 could be a very good aircraft for that," he said without elaboration. Sources played down the news when contacted by ArabianBusiness.com. "Emirates has no plans to start a budget carrier at the present time. We [are] currently focussed on our own organic growth," said a spokesperson.

However, launching such an operation would reflect the burgeoning ‘no-frills’ airline sector in the Middle East. Earlier this year Jazeera Airways, the Kuwait-based low cost carrier, established a base in Dubai. The Sharjah-based Air Arabia has recently completed the largest IPO in UAE history to fund its expansion. The no-frills model is also taking off in the newly-liberalised market of Saudi Arabia, where operators including National Air Services plan low cost carriers. Dubai-based Emirates, the largest Arab airline, has also announced a 20.2% increase in second-half profit and said it may buy more Airbus A380s. Net income in the six months to March 31 rose to AED1.9 billion ($517.4 million) from AED1.58 billion in the year-earlier period, Reuters calculated based on full-year data the company released today. Emirates chairman Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum said the airline was close to a compensation deal with Airbus on its delayed A380s and may buy more of the aircraft. "We are very close to completing in the next week in terms of compensation," he told reporters in Dubai. "In terms of cancelling the A380s, no. Maybe we are buying more," he added. "We'll let you know more sometime in the future." Sheikh Ahmed said that Emirates has 'no interest' in buying a stake in Airbus. "I'm sure they [Airbus] are talking to some Arab private companies but not [to] us as an airline." It was not clear whether this comment related to the Gulf emirate of Qatar, which has recently been in talks with Airbus parent EADS about buying as much as a 10% stake in the European aerospace company.

Emirates, the world's eighth-largest international air passenger carrier in 2005, operates a fleet of 102 aircraft and has another 106 on order, including 43 of Airbus's A380 superjumbo. It carried 10.5 million passengers in the second half, up from 7.52 million in the year-earlier period. The government-owned airline plans to expand its fleet to 157 and double the number of its destinations to about 170 during the next five years, adding cities in the United States, Africa and India. Sheikh Ahmed ruled out buying stakes in other airlines such as PIA. "There's nothing in the pipeline at the moment. We're focusing on the airline [Emirates], not investing in other carriers."

Emirates made today's announcements at an event held at the arena at Dubai's upmarket Madinat hotel. It had flown in journalists from across the world, especially those from its key hubs in Europe and Asia.

[Cyrano]

Not exactly new - Tim Clark was talking about that publicly in Nov 2005, suggesting a A380 with 780 all-Y seats serving UK-Australia, and as I recall also serving the Indian routes which I think are limited by the UAE bilateral in frequency, but not capacity, terms.

[SpootNICK]

UK and Aus I can understand,

But I seem to recollect that the indian routes are in fact limited to the number of pax onboard (and not just on frequency). I remember a while back, a request for the jumpseat was put through but then shot down at the last minute because the total number of pax onboard had exceeded the maximum allowable according to the indian traffic rights. ie all cabin seats where taken, and the poor staff traveller who had tried so hard to get home on emergency leave, had to wait for the next available flight.

This would not of been a problem if the staff pax was on the gendec, but since he had a revenue ticket, he was included in the total pax count.

This may of changed......

SN

[GMDS]

What's a jump-seat SN????
Remember, you're on a EK thread here and EK (TC) uses their jump-seats just to mentally kick their employees in the b****. Even if it would create some revenue they still refuse, now that's a stunner for the greedy b******! They only give these seat to control us via LOSA, and are subsequently surprised when we refuse.
Just proof how much they despise us.

[coffindodger]

just been on dubai 1 tv ek is ordering qty 3 more a380''s.

[A-FLOOR]

Make that 4:

http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Aviation/10123568.html