SAA Unprofessional ???

[Flying Bean]

There is a thread on Rumours & News titled
"Amazing Unprofessional Flying In Africa" where apparently SAA is involved. Can we we some of the locals comments on this thread. No one from RSA seems to have picked it up!!

[B Sousa]

Maybe you can get 4HP to drag the thread over here.
I read the thing and was surprised, but I have spoken with some in the industry who fly the same routes who assure me that you have to fly those routes to understand the situation. Its a matter of groups of Aircraft converging North/South everyday and a lack of ANY assistance from countiries being crossed that creates these situations. Basically total lack of ATC in some parts.
Either way, as a PAX on those routes Im not ready to condem the crew until I hear "The Rest of the Story."

[rags]

I see Brother GMC responded from KFC

GMC please spill the beans as the original thread turned into a very interesting discussion away from this point.

Over the years the pilots from your company were very verbal about contolling over africa and then this happen.

I like the comment about a dim view

:ok:

Hope GMC reads this

:ok:

[Gunship]

I see the article on Rumours and News ( http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96057 ) made waves in The Sunday Crimes (SA edition)




SAA is investigating the captain of a jumbo jet, carrying hundreds of passengers, after he refused to obey an air traffic controller's instructions to descend to avoid another aircraft in Niger airspace two weeks ago.

The other jet, an Alitalia aircraft, obeyed the controller's instruction to take evasive action, but the "belligerent" SAA pilot is believed to have deliberately ignored the instruction.

The incident came to light after it was reported by air crew on an Internet forum for professional pilots.

One anonymous pilot, who called himself "Jayjay Okocha" - the name of a Nigerian footballer - and who heard the exchange between the SAA jumbo and air traffic control at Niamey airport in Niger, said: "It has to go down as the most childish and unprofessional exchange I have heard.

"He was not only childish, arrogant and stupid, but sounded ridiculous and endangered the lives of up to 400 people.

"Further pleas for him to descend were met with arrogant disdain and a repeated refusal to descend. He went on to quote ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organisation] Rules of the Air . . . all the time remaining at his assigned level, causing loss of separation [between the aircraft]."

The writer, after being pressed by other visitors to the website, identified the "offender" as being from "South African" [Airways].

"We [his cockpit colleagues] were impressed with the way the situation was handled by the Italian crew, who refused to be drawn into a . . . slanging match, treating his repeated haranguing . . . with the contempt it deserved."

Pilots commenting on the incident on the forum said they were "astounded, disgusted and stupefied" by the actions of the SAA captain who endangered the lives of hundreds of passengers, while at the same time acknowledging the professionalism of SAA cockpit crews.

SAA's executive vice-president for operations, Johan van Jaarsveld, confirmed the airline was investigating the allegations, but cautioned that there were two sides to a story.

"Our aircraft are equipped with airborne collision avoidance systems which inform crews of the position of other traffic in the vicinity. It is inconceivable a captain would defy a controller's instruction to descend if he was unaware of the position of the 'intruder' aircraft," he said.

But he stressed that if found guilty of a transgression, the captain, who was this week identified by SAA management, could face disciplinary action. "We will do anything required to ensure the safety of our passengers over Africa. This will be fully investigated," said Van Jaarsveld.

The incident refused to die down on the website. This week, 10 days after the first report, an SAA "crew member" with the pseudonym "GMC" asked for the call-sign of the jumbo to be identified "to get to the bottom of this".

"Okocha" replied that he remembered it well but did not want to provoke a witch-hunt. He added: "Rest assured the incident was certainly reported by us, and Niamey informed the SAA crew that they were also taking action."

"GMC" replied the next day: "I have obtained the flight number and isolated the 'perpetrator'. Rest assured that the South African national carrier has taken a very dim view of this incident."

One experienced SAA captain said this week that dealing with air traffic controllers in Africa could be frustrating and "can lead to outbursts of temper, but that is no excuse for unprofessionalism".

In 1997 two multi-engined military jets collided over the ocean off the Namibian coast, killing 33 passengers and crew. This followed warnings a year earlier by the Airline Pilots' Association of South Africa that chaotic air traffic management over Africa was endangering aircraft and passengers. :E

And you even ask why I boycot them ... :*

[George Tower]

Firstly I just want to say that I believe unequivocally in Pprune and all it stands for. But it is still a "Rumour Network". If allegations are going to be made in public i.e. The Sunday Times then I think they should delve a little deeper then just cutting and pasting from a thread of this forum.

I shudder to think what their criteria is for verifying sources - simply a correctly spelt URL? For the number one national newspaper they have become extremely trashy.

GT

PS I'll watch the thread develop and hopefully the facts will emerge but my comment isn't about the facts of the incident but about crap journalism.

[Goldfish Jack]

George Tower - it might be a rumour netowrk, but this actually happened and thanks to PPRUNE for bringing it out.

We do not need such incidents over Africa and the quicker it is dealt with, the better for everyone. I have posted my thoughts at the Rumours page, so feel free to have a look there.

Hey Guns, I agree with you - my options for Europe later this year, have just got a whole lot easier. One down........

[Flying Bean]

To keep this alive. I believe there has now been a statement/reply by the SAA Press Officer. It is not reflected on this thread or the original Rumours thread. Can anyone post it as I believe it was on the lines "we have invetsigated and it all a storm in a teacup - don't worry. Be happy etc!!"

[PAXboy]

The SAA press office says that it's 'OK'?? Wow, thank goodness for that. You know, I was just so worried that SAA had made a mistake and am so relieved to know that it was everybody else.

[slapfaan]

What is stupid thread...

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with SAAs' flight deck crew as far as proffesialism goes...

You girls are just sour and twisted because you're not flying for a good airline!!

The SAA management is the circus...!!!;)

[REAL ORCA]

Dont see what SAA management has to do with this situation apart from trying to do some damage control-seems to me a pure pilot thing.

Most of us have never flown those routes. It will be educational if some of the "old hands" can give us an indication of what type of problems they do experience on these routes that could lead to what seems to be a violation of flying dissipline.

[Stonebird]

The other day coming down into the dogfight which is Lima Alfa Golf, after finally getting a word in edgeways we got descent from 240 at 20 miles, cleared to 50, going thru 95 at 6500fpm we get "Maintain 100" from Lagos Approach. We advise that we are thru 90 already, what does he want us to do? "Confem 90?" "Affirm, now thru 80"..tells us maintain 65. And tells another a/c 5N-MPA to do an immediate orbit in present position, to which MPA says "Negative, they are behind us, why should we?" We passed them doing 6500fpm 2 miles off the beam. This same crowd today misreported their position by at least 20 miles, we were cleared onto the ILS after they reported on the glide, only to find them on TCAS at 2200' 2 miles in front not even at LAG yet, 7 minutes behind their reported estimate. This sort of thing goes on all day, every day here.

Now when a SAA crew, probably faced with some barely understandable and completely insensible controlling, finally - and allegedly - succumbs to temporarily lowering their professional standards to the level of the dreck around them, by questioning the instructions given, as happens daily in this part of the world, instead of getting castigated through the normal channels, get hung out to dry in the national sunday rag. Nice.

To all the gaping-mouthed protected species on the R&N thread, come and try it here for a few months before you slate one-off temporary lapses of professionalism.

To those that wonder aghast if we can trust our TCAS instruments, and yet trust their AH's day in day out to keep the pointy bit facing forwards...yes we do, we use everything available to us. We have had , whilst under ATC control, 7 TCAS targets in a 6 mile range simultaneously at LAG, including one not sqwawking Mode C and following us on our cross like a UFO, all the while getting Traffic Traffic in our ears in full IMC ...ATC says he is unaware of anyone at our level..when we blind broadcast 'everyone in the hold please sqwawk mode charlie' we get 'confem you want a victor mike charlie approach' from ATC...its a sh1tfight of note here and every day very difficult to maintain professionalism. But we do. However we are about the only ones who do, us and the Russians, believe it or not. The locals have no radio discipline, cut in all the time, bullsh1t constantly about their distance, altitude and rate of climb/descent, often to deliberately keep us at lower levels and from time to time order us around as if they were the ATC themselves..

Come and try it at Lima Alfa Golf! A true test of human patience...

[togabutton]

I used to fly in and out of there briefly in 1999/2000. All I can say is that we used to say "HAPPINESS is V1 at lagos!"

It was, and it seems still is a scary place as far as chaotic traffic goes and poor ATC. What about the baffoons who don't even turn a transponder on let alone bother to squawk mode C?

My sympathy to the crews who fly that region. As has been stated, its always easy to pass judgement. Go there and see for yourselves.

[Cpt Launchpad]

I have operated a few times in and out of Niamey and agree with the guys saying that you can only talk if you have been there !

Niamey must be one of the most incompetent ATC's in the area(probably on par with Conakry and Freetown-2001-2002).

Had to question their clearances many a time due to them clearing aircraft through our level.
One of their favourite party tricks would be to continue talking to conflicting traffic in French once requested by us to speak in English so that we could also understand what was going on.The French speaking traffic refused to speak English (As per normal in my experience which is over 1.5 years in West Africa).After our request the conflicting traffic (Air Burkina) replied to us in perfect English "just shut up you are making a nuisance".
Now that is what I call unproffessional.I suggest that crews who have flown there should only comment as it is easy to pass judgement.That area's controllers are the biggest hazard and they should all be retrained .The only safe option is ,as pilots ,to make the safest decision even if it means disregarding ATC when required to and communicating with the conflicting traffic.

Good luck to the guys flying over that backward area,I respect anyone flying there as it is the pilots who ensure the safety alone!!!

[126.9]

Having flown these routes for many years now: I too question EVERY instruction received from ATC in the African 126.9 sector! A pilot would be a fool not to do so...

[Stonebird]

To give those that aren't familiar with Lagos an idea (just the merest glimpse) of what goes on, Lagos has the distinction of having 2 parallel runways. 19L for domestix and 19R for international.
The VOR (none of the NDBs work) is 5.7 dme before the threshold of 19L.The hold is at the VOR. All traffic for both runways joins the hold. Traffic departing from 19L turns RIGHT crossing the centreline of 19R and goes to the VOR. Traffic from 19R is turned LEFT through the centreline of 19L and goes to the VOR. So everybody approaching or leaving the place goes to the VOR, in a non-radar environment, with 50% of them telling porkies about their true position. If one machine is 50 miles and another machine is 60 miles, the 50 mile machine gets first EAT regardless of speed. Say anything other than standard words, and they will NOT understand you. Even routing around weather is difficult.

There's lots of laughs. Theres one controller whose foot/hand co-ordination is out and he lifts off the PTT too soon all the time.
Things like, "contact Lagos Control on 124 decimal.(?)" or "decend level two (??)" or "expect ILS approach on runway One Nine(?)"
Today he gets told by some European airline '..and please be advised that you are lifting the PTT switch too soon and the end of your sentences are being cut off." Long silence, then "Roger, cop"

One of the funniest today was the Virgin, radios the tower and says "Please be advised that the Virgin will be fully ready in 15 minutes." Long silence from tower, then "Rog." and the Virgin continues in the plummiest of pommy accents "and, um, can you give us your latest weather, there's nothing on the ATIS." we nearly fell out of the cockpit laughing.

Lots of laughs, and tears of frustration, 6 times a day...

[Flying Bean]

Gentlemen.

I am moving this back to the top because there is still no real answer to the original topic. The problems of flying over Africa are well posted and noted.
BUT, the original thread was based upon a FIRST HAND report from a crew member who overheard the exchange on the radio.
So far there has been no details/reply, either from SAA or other SAA crewas to their vesion of the events.
Did the SAA Captain respond in an unprofessional manner?

I have sent an email to GMC (on the other thread) to see if he can shed more light.

[B Sousa]

Mr Bean
Do you really believe that someone who has a secure job in the flying Biz is going to post his real name and give the whole world of rumor mongers something to feast on......??
And for sure SAA will not lower itself to post here.....
The more I understand the way things operate on the routing and the players involved, Im surprised he didnt airmail the ATC in question a 200 pound block of Blue Ice.
Sort of makes me want to take Varig back to the states......

[126,7]

All we actually have is the report by Jay-Jay(the nigerian soccer player) and his interpretation of the event. The more I read the posts by some folks the more I tend to side with the spoories cpt. He should've maybe done it a bit more diplomatically. And I am sure that he wouldnt have endangered the plane nor the pax. We dont even know what type of aircraft the Alitalia was and we dont know if spoories was ahead or behind at the converging point. 3 mins could be anything from 21-24 nm and if if if if....we can only speculate until we know more. If we will ever know more ?? In the mean time spoories captains should go on a diplomacy course and learn how to speak to people. " Unable due to operational reasons" is allways a winner:cool:

[chuks]

Who in the world wants to use someone else's name as his own cover name, e.g. `Jay-Jay Okocha´?

That said, isn´t there a professional duty to preserve the confidentiality of communications that is enshrined in the Rules of the Air? Last time I checked that was in there somewhere.

And, finally, if I only lost my rag once every hundred times I got some weird clearance from Nigerian ATC then that would make about one time per week I would be creating a lot of unnecessary difficulty and risk for everyone. If you have the big picture and the guy behind the mic is a bit lost, well, congratulations! Now shut the f**k up, follow directions, such as they are and get out of the way. That guy on the ground is doing the best he can with what he has to work with for a lot less money than you are making, if that warrants any consideration.

The best one I ever heard was someone telling me that in his opinion it was very unfair that if he had his transponder on, squawking Mode C, then I (TCAS-equipped) could see him but he (non-TCAS-equipped) still couldn't see me. The idea that both parties to a mid-air collision would end up having their mail delivered by ground-hogs didn't seem to enter into this calculation.

[bigmanatc]

The SAA oke was catching the eytie.....same level....so the spoorie Cpt asked the eytie if he would go up/down 1000` and they (SAA) would go the other way...so the eyetie went up 1000` and spoories went down 1000`.....problem....ATC there now see`s spoories at wrong level.....F380....and wants spoories to go back to original level....which will then negate the sep...spoories refused and thats what happened......eventually passing eyetie and returning to original level later on......all done on 126.9 between the two crews.........

[Sir Cumference]

Anybody flying over the vast continent of Africa knows of the requirement to self seperate. Africa is under the whip to improve the control and have someone on the ground be the advisor in cases of separation.

A problem exists here in the 'hand-over' phase. If 'bigman's' story is correct and there should be no reason to doubt it, then it seems that the way Africa ATC has been handled over the past few decades is the way it was handled on this occasion. With agreed separation and consent. Then the arguement which got the rumour mongers going and the newspapers and...

I am guessing, but my feeling is that the guys in the front ofice will still rather trust their own separation arrangements than rely on a person on the ground looking at ....?

[planecrazi]

If what Bigmanatc says is true, I wonder where this procedure can be found in any law and why don't other professional airlines do the same. Can't seem to say I've ever heard of such a thing, in high, fast and long range jets.

We are always told to arrange to be at a point by a certain time or else, change levels or slow down the on the mach.

Sounds like it was invented over a braai or some beers!

[Pontius' Pilot]

I am at home right now and don't have access to a Jepp but in my note book I have noted the following:

If collision hazard is detected:

1 Descend 1000 ft if above FL290 and 500 ft if at or below FL290
2 Lights ON
3 Transmit action taken on 126.9 and 121.5
4 Notify ATC of action taken
5 Resume normal FL once clear of conflict.

I am certain I copied this from the Enroute section in the Jepp under the section covering the In Flight Broadcast Procedure over most of Africa. Not exactly what was described by Bigmatic but nevertheless a pilot controlled action.

Will confirm source.

(edited for grammar)

[planecrazi]

Thanks PP, This is to avoid an accident/collision, but I don't think it is to be organized in order for two aircraft to pass one another out of convienience.

In the early hours of this morning at around 02 50 zulu( average estimate of time), Tripoli FIR, we heard KLM and Condor having an RA and taking avoiding action just after BNA. It seemed frightening to hear out of the silence of the night. One climed to FL355 and the other descended to FL345 in same direction on the same airway each declaring TCAS RA. The ATC did not show much concern, possibly didn't understand what had just happened within 100nm of his area of control, Benghazi.

This is outside of the 126.9 area (north of 30 degrees), just short of Malta FIR. I would think that if 126.9 was still used int his area, the risk of this happening between the two aircraft could be minimised much more.

It just goes to show again, accidents/airprox/ can happen out there even with the profesionals, listening to controllers clearances, TCAS equipment and both pilots believing that they are doing the right thing.

Organzing your own passing trick with another aircraft within these skies could only lead to more of a disaster.

Keep it safe out there!!!:ok:

[Pontius' Pilot]

exactly that planecrazi:

"if collision hazard is detected"

[bigmanatc]

All you armchair experts who were`nt there at the time.....sit back ok....!!!

[Pontius' Pilot]

Bigmanatc if the "armchair experts" refers to me, for information I spend most of my time flying through the In Flight Broadcast Region. I am acutely aware of the problems existing in that airspace.

At the time that SAAPA (via ALPA-SA) was lobbying for notice to be taken of the major shortcomings over Africa I was part of ALPA-SA executive and bore knowledge of the magnitude of the problem and what was being done by Cathy to resolve the issue.

Planecrazi also spends most of his life flying in the area and I am sure can not be classified as an "armchair expert" either. But let him speak for himself.

The fact of the matter is that there are accepted published procedures to be used. If SAA is guilty of not adhering to procedures let that be the job of the inquiry to determine. Regardless of written procedures I also respect the right of the Captain to do what he considers necessary to ensure the safety of his aircraft. The inquiry will no doubt determine if he used his discretion in this matter.

I did not aportion blame in my earlier posting I merely stated facts that could be of use to others that may fly in the region and who are following the thread.

Well I'm off to go and fly in that "region" in 3 hours time.

[REAL ORCA]

Bigmanatc, by suggesting that we should not comment "because we were not there", you are displaying the same arrogance that probably caused the insident in the first place.

[bigmanatc]

Hold on guys....all I meant was...let the inquiry decide who`s right or wrong....chill.

[Goldfish Jack]

Well said friendly sperm whale!

Maybe we can all learn something from this and one thing we will not learn is arrogance and lack of correct facts means nothing.

There is no harm in us putting our 5cents worth in, but lets hope the real facts get out and the truth be told.

[tired]

Like planecrazi and PP, I also spend a great deal of my time in the African IFBR, and have done so for much of the last 20 years.

I've used the "level change" procedure described by Bigman quite a few times, but always to avoid crossing traffic, never to overtake someone. When using the procedure I always get a distinct tightening of the sphincter whilst at the "unusual" level and am glad to get back to my standard level - you never know who is floating around with lights, radios and transponder off, not to mention the loss of separation with opposite direction traffic. Fortunately, when avoiding crossing traffic I don't have to spend too long in the discomfort zone - I'd hate to spend however long it takes to overtake someone at a non-standard level. Especially in the N'djamena FIR, because that's where most of the northbounds seem to pass most of the southbounds on the EUR-JNB route - it seems like there's opposite direction traffic every 5 minutes in that area on some nights.

So if Bigman's info is correct, then those Spoories guys have bigger balls than I have.........

Actually, on reflection, I must question the accuracy of Bigman's version of events. It would have required the 2 aircraft to spend at least an hour at non-standard levels in order for SAA to have safely overtaken the Alitalia, and I very much doubt that both crews would have agreed to that. If that was what they'd agreed, then I find myself tending to agree with the controller! SAA may act like they own the skies when they're in South Africa, but outside SA I've always found them extremely professional (and usually helpful to other traffic as well), and in Africa they are usually very vertically-aware. It's much more likely in my opinion that the 2 aircraft were crossing traffic to each other (probably at somewhere like DIR) and had agreed the level change as a temporary measure to get past the confliction point. As planecrazi and PP mention above, that is a fairly common practice in those parts.

So, Bigman, where did you get your info? Where you there, or have you just heard half the story and drawn your own conclusions?

(Edited to add the last 2 paragraphs.)

[bigmanatc]

Nope...was`nt there , just passing on the info as I heard it from another spoories driver......who does`nt usually talk ****e......the speculations in the earlier correspondances were just too much.....

[planecrazi]

Hello Bigmanatc, Was this the earlier speculation you were refering to: Quote"The SAA oke was catching the eytie.....same level....so the spoorie Cpt asked the eytie if he would go up/down 1000` and they (SAA) would go the other way...so the eyetie went up 1000` and spoories went down 1000`.....problem....ATC there now see`s spoories at wrong level.....F380....and wants spoories to go back to original level....which will then negate the sep...spoories refused and thats what happened......eventually passing eyetie and returning to original level later on......all done on 126.9 between the two crews........."

If it weren't for this speculation, we would chill out in our arm chairs and let the board of inquiry sort it out.

[126,7]

Bigman wasnt speculating!! We were! He got the gen from a reliable friend of his who is a driver at spoories and might even have been on this flight. (thats me speculating)
We probably blew this whole thing out of proportion.
Most of us have been up and down this pilot-friendly continent and scenes like these are common. 90% probably dont even get reported(me speculating again) and how many of the near-misses dont get reported either.
The only thing the spoories driver did wrong was to piss the ATC off and the Nigerian-soccer-playing-ppruner who reported it on these forums.

[bigmanatc]

126,7.....don`t go speculating you twit....these ou`s want facts......on a rumour network nogal......:O

[Flying Bean]

From Todays Sunday Times, August 24th

SAA has found that the actions of a senior captain who argued with an air traffic controller – forcing another plane to give way- were nothing more than “inappropriate”.
SAA’s chief pilot, Copt Johnny Woods, said this week: “We believe his manner was inappropriate. However, we consider this an internal issue.”
Woods said SAA had received transcripts of the conversation between the air traffic controller, based in Niamey, Niger and the SAA Boeing 747 headed for Europe.
Woods said the transcripts showed the SAA Captain complied with the controller’s request 57 minutes before the aircraft would have “converged”
“This eliminates any suggestion that the captain’s initial reluctance to descend endangered his passengers or the aircraft.” said Woods. – Roger Makings


Hmmm. Well I guess that this is OK. I the light of the numererous deficiences in this region highlighted by many of the other posts on this and the other forum, the 'censure' is appropriate, but I would be intererested to hear the opinion of all those who are actually in the hot seat on this route.:hmm: