Comments On Fairford 2003

[KPax]

Any first impressions on Fairford 2003.

[Amateur Aviator]

Busy, with lots of hardware, boatloads of spotters, and the longest flying display by the french aero team ever imaginable. They did it to a double album instead of a couple of select tracks! Timing and the french really didn't happen that well. Maybe they used the same watch that was used to say that Saddam could launch in 45mins.

The flight line seemed rather random, in no particular order, but I gather they had problems getting everyone in with the original slot time plan falling apart at the seams. That said, it was good to see a large presence from UK forces.

The only real problem for me was getting terribly burnt. If you saw a walking hirta, it was probably me.

And another thing: the beer tent closed early.

Have a word someone

[Scud-U-Like]

Just be grateful it happened at all this year.

[Wycombe]

Well done Paul & Tim (or whoever you gave the job to) for getting the traffic management sorted.....much, much better than last year, both in and out (at least Sun when I was there) - drove as we thought the P&R was a bit steep for a family of 4 though.

Thanks to the RAF Albert J crew for the detailed shuftie at all the flight deck gizmos.

Great to see the Typhoon flying like it was built to at last.

Well done Mike Whitehouse for getting in a wry comment re. Lyneham closure on the PA aswell (not representative of Air Force policy, I'm sure).

[Grob Driver]

Well done Paul and Tim (or whoever you are!) for having an awful flying display. Some great aircraft, but very scatty, with long gaps of a not a lot happening.

Well done Paul and Tim (or whoever you are!) for having no toilets open on the Friday despite there being (allegedly) 20,000 air cadets on site, 100’s of traders and however many spotters. Why weren’t they open?… Because RIAT wouldn’t pay for them to be open on the Friday.

Well done Paul and Tim (or whoever you are!) for having very few dustbins. Er… FOD?

Well done Paul and Tim (or whoever you are!) for having vehicle security checks. But tell me… a security check that involves some guy lifting your bonnet, and opening the back door of a trailer that the packed full of stuff… What is the point in that? If you are going to conduct security checks, you need to be using sniffer dogs. I didn’t see one. It just made the whole thing a farce… A total waste of time.

Well done Paul and Tim (or whoever you are!) for the 100 years of flight… That was fantastic… Well done!

All in all, I thought the static aircraft were very good, but the flying was poor, and there are still so many issues that RIAT need to address, despite being told every year! I think this year people showed their frustration with their feet… There was no one there!

[pilotwolf]

It was also our first visit to RIAT...

Having heard about the dire traffic problems in the past and from AB's experience of Farnborough we decided to overnight in Swindon, ( took about 2 hrs on telephone to find vacancy anywhere....), and use the park and ride scheme. Unfortunately the pack and ride scheme wasn't sign posted at all from the town centre and we didn't notice any signs from the motorway on the Friday night - thank goodness for satnav! After the park and ride we had to walk approx 1 mile from the bus drop off to the actual show entrance. The dedicated route for the park and ride buses wasn't - several times we met opposing traffic and narrowly missed ending up in the ditch - even worse returning to the car park after the show.

Security searching was dreadful - we both activated the scanner and I was carrying an airband transciever in my pocket - neither of us were searched.... nor was AB's large rucksack examined... There was also a stall selling crossbows on site!!!

There seemed to be no logical layout to the static line and therefore no easy way of walking around to avoid missing things. This accompanied with the appalling lack of signs meant finding a specific place was very difficult... especially the toilets - could have done with a few more too.

Flying display was very random and seemingly disorganised. Some seemed very poorly performed - being fairly new to airshows I was dissapointed with the standard - there were some noticible exceptions though. The lack of commentary was also noticable... unless you brought a RIAT radio, at £6.50 - guess the commentary was on there?

It clearly stated on the ticket that bicyles were not allowed on the base but we noticed numerous people riding them...

Distinct lack of general seating around the static display...

The shuttle buses were charging £3.00 a ride!! Unfortunately they told another passenger that it was free - until we got to the far end of the field and then a man got on and told us if we wanted to go back it would cost us £3.00 each! Later heard the photo bus was £10.00 a trip!

Distinct lack of 'marshals' for information around the field.

Food was as expected - edible and overpriced! Its seemed that water was being distributed for free but we only found one place that was...

Too many children!!!! :)

On the positive side...

We had a good day out - albeit rather expensive for what it was.
Weather was great.
Not too crowded that you couldn't move around easily.
Excellent range of static aircraft.
Good to see things like the stealth in flight.
Surprising lack of traffic problems.
Easy car parking and no delays at park and ride - when we found it.
All the air/ground crew we spoke to were knowledgeable, friendly and actually wanted to talk to the visitors. Including some 'extra' open cockpits on request.

Overall...

We'd go again but would like to see some changes...

[sprucemoose]

I was only there Friday, and despite some fairly grotty weather first thing it was a good enough day for a warm-up. And no probs getting in - thanks entirely to Gulfstream's GV!

Policing was suitably visible of Friday, although not sure of the need for so many armed people around Rivet Joint, U-2 etc.

£7 seemed a lot for the programme (given that it was full of ads), so I'm glad I didn't have to pay for one. All in a good cause, I suppose.

The highlight for me was watching the pair of RN Lynx do some mad flying - never seen anything like it, so full marks to the crews involved. The AirTanker A330 also did a fine flyby with two German Tornados on Friday, which I know surprised a few people...

Whatever its limitations, RIAT still beats dour trade shows like Farnborough and Paris hands down, and I'll be back next year.

;)

[zola]

I was all so there on the Friday (as one of the 20,000 cadets) and I had a great time!!!!! All though the weather was not great at times I thought that the flying displays were great, apart from the VERY long display by the French!!! I think that you need to look more carefully next time Grob driver as there were hundreds of bins. The two lynx’s were amazing; I never knew that helicopters could do any thing like that.

[Wycombe]

GD,

Paul (Bowen) & Tim (Prince) are the Directors of RIAT - I'm sure they'd be able to address some of your concerns, but also give an appreciation of the sheer scale and difficulty of putting on what is the Worlds Biggest Military Airshow (with 100,000 members of the public thrown in each day for good measure).

It is a huge feat of organisation, and, bear in mind, a large no. of the volunteers are just that - they are not paid for taking (up to 2 weeks in a lot of cases) away from their day jobs to make it happen.

Don't know which day you went, but it was heaving with people yesterday (Sunday)

Pilotwolf,

Yes, it's expensive, but has to be so that the Charities actually get something out of it at the end.

Some of those kids may be the Aircrew of tomorrow. Mine loved it!

Cheers

[Grob Driver]

Wycombe,

I can’t agree with you that it was “heaving with people yesterday (Sunday)”. I was there on the Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I’ve being going to IAT at Fairford, Boscome and Cottesmore for as many years as I can remember. I have NEVER seen it so empty. There were gaps in the crowd line watching the flying… That is normally unheard of. While I would agree that there were more people there on Sunday than there were on the Saturday, it was still very empty. I remember it when you had to fight your way through crowds to get to the aircraft on static. That just didn’t happen.

Ye, hats off Paul (Bowen) & Tim (Prince). They have pulled off a major event. All in all, it was good, but it’s the things like I mentioned in my previous post that are putting people off going to IAT. No toilets on Friday… That is just a joke. Security checks when they don’t actually check anything. They need to start concentrating on getting the little things right again.

[DarkStar]

Went on Saturday, arrived at 08.00 via M4 - my observations were:
From M4 the Park and Ride (P&R) pretty well signposted, however, field used for parking was deeply rutted and some people with buggy's and elderly people nearly had some nasty accidents.

There was a very long walk from the P&R to the show entrance, again the surface was pretty poor. However, little queues at the entrance and in without a delay.

Static display was good, however, copious Ice cream vans were parked in the way of what would have been some good photos e.g VC10 XV106. 100 years of flying was the highlight for me, well laid out and very interesting.

Biggest issue was the lack of toilets, there were long queues and awful scenes of people thumping the doors and pushing in through desperation - this shouldn't happen at such a civilised event. I spoke to the First Aid staff who said they were inundated with people asking where more toilets were. Come on RIAT, buck your ideas ideas :*

I thought the flying display was patchy, with many long gaps and was generally disappointing. Its difficult to explain why, but it just seemed rather predictable and unexciting.

I saw many gaps along the public lawn flightline....and I did pay £7.00 for a programme and although its for charity, I thought it was extreme having flicked through it.

The return P&R was somewhat shambolic due no bus stop sign in place and traffic suddenly coming head on towards the bus!!:ooh:

In general, I was disappointed, however, I appreciate that many people gave up their time to provide the event which had plus's - the traffic, lack of queues and static dispaly but several major minus's - No.1 being lack of toilet facilities and poor flying programme. I know that the RAF have been 'busy' lately, in fact my wife is still flying 'overseas' with them and their participation was better than expected.:ok:

So 6 out of 10.

[BEagle]

Good that AirTanker's Future STRATEGIC Tanker Aircraft gave a good fly-by - and showed that there's no problem for a Tornado to fly in formation with the A330. Nice public proximity demo:ok:!

Err - what of the opposition's old ex-BA767s. Or were they stuck at LHR due to the BA strike? Bit of a faux pas not to have one at the last big airshow before the FSTA downselect......

[G Fourbee]

Excuse my ignorance Beagle, surely there is more to air to air refuelling than just flying in echelon - you have to get behind the basket don't you?

[BEagle]

Well yes. First you crawl, then you walk, then you run....

But this was an excellent piece of PR and a good confidence builder for AirTanker's A330 FSTA contender - especially in such a public arena!

[AlanM]

And of course if you want to:


Beat the traffic,

Not pay for a ticket,

Help a charity,

Have a good time,

Get close to the aircraft,

Be part of a team

BECOME A VOLUNTEER!!!

:)

[Wycombe]

AlanM,

Quite right, now you've got me lamenting that I no longer can.

Trust that all went ok with the Sunday night festivities and that the omelettes were up to their usual high standards ;)

GD,

Have been to loads too, but mostly on the "live" side, so probably missed some of the busiest years on the public side.

Take your point. It was busy where we were on Sunday, but I didn't cover the whole airfield (too far for 2 little ones to walk), so you may have had a better overall view than me.

Darkstar,

Agree about the display....hard to put a finger on it, but it did seem to lack "something" this year. Even Sean (commentator) Maffett was losing the plot a bit as to what was to happen next at about 5pm on Sun.

Again, where we were, no real queues for the loos (my kids went about 5 times during the day and never had to queue for more than 5 mins).

All goes to prove that, at such a massive event, the circumstances can be completely different at one end of the crowd line to what they are 2 miles away at the other.

[StopStart]

J model static was, of course, magnificent. Glad you liked it Mr Wycombe :)

Party was pretty good - largest omlette in history.
Gala Dinner on Friday also good ;)

Also achieved strange new levels of sunburn :uhoh:

[SPIT]

First of all let me say I DID NOT GO THIS YEAR. I have been going to the display along with some friends since the Greenham Common days but the prices are getting stupid. My mates did go this year and they all say the same thing, NEVER AGAIN since there it no airfield parking and the display seems much the same now,but there is now no such thing as value for the money you pay?? Myself and all my mates would far rather go to The Waddington Displays now ( it has its faults but you do get good Value For Money there and you seem to get a better selection of equipment there.:ok: :ok:

[pilotwolf]

WYCOMBE

I sure they may...


If they learn to behave properly.
Learn some discipline and manners.
Don't rely on their parents as an example of how to behave in public.


I m sure yours were well behaved... unfortunately many weren't. After the umpteenth time I m barged out of the way or trodden on or can't hear my conversation due to one screaming I get a little p*ssed off - I was brought up proper you know... ;)

[AlanM]

Wycombe...

Was a very busy party in the Hangar - LOADS of people bopping away to two great bands. Get yourself back in the fold matey!

StopStart...

Glad you enjoyed the Dinner on Friday as well - what table No were you on? I was under the nose of the GR7. Can't tell you what hassle it is getting 5 real aircraft into a carpetted hangar and to have 570 people eating there!

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/SPericani2.gif

[DamienB]

Thought the static was fine, suffered a bit less from blue cones than in the past. Impressed so many crews stuck with their a/c all day despite sunburn etc. and kept on flogging stuff despite edicts from RIAT organisers not to :ok: Some imaginative positioning too e.g. the F-16 lineup. Found the attitude of the various volunteers/ATC/mil/police much friendlier this year for some reason (maybe it was my silly t-shirt) - as a result got a look round the 100 years of flight area after it had closed to the public, which was much appreciated. Mucho Joe Public steaming about that bit being closed at 18:30 when they were told so often over the tannoy to not rush away after the flying display and stay for a look at the static and the concert. Bit tricky when the best bit is being closed down as you get to it! I guess this was down to a lack of volunteers to look after a large number of priceless airframes - Meteor prototype for instance.

Flying was a bit gappy on Saturday and chaotic on Sunday bearing almost no relation to the programme. Hungarian MiG-29, Typhoon and C-27J got my vote for best displays (and best landing for the latter on Saturday!!). When the fast jets got going on both days it was good entertainment but the long quiet bits were snooze-inducing.

Sunday I was out on a bike and the roads around Fairford were eerily quiet compared to previous years. Crowds on Saturday on the airfield looked to be less than half of previous years too - I think after last year's fiasco the public voted with their feet in a serious way.

Spoke to a lot of people who were making this year's RIAT their last as ever-increasing prices are driving them to smaller shows like Waddo (for similar line-up of types, if not scale) or Kemble (for geographic location) - and no half-hearted searches of everybody at those shows! It's a pity but I think it's too big a show for most now - you really have to camp nearby and make it a long weekend to get the best out of it. And camping just t'other side of the fence from the Turkish F-4s gave me new appreciation for the scale of the volunteers' task, with the rivet counters only finally being all cleared off by gone 9 each night!

I'll post some pics on the av. hist & nostalgia forum tonight.

[Man-on-the-fence]

Well I thououghly enjoyed my 6 days there.

The 100 years of flight was fantastic and I was really touched by the tribute to the Firefly crew. I just stood there with tears streaming down my face.

The traffic seems sorted now, although ther system didnt appear to have any load put on it.

Security was a joke quite frankly, I was searched more thoroughly each time I went into the FRIAT enclosure on the non-show days than I was on any show day. Now where is the bigger risk, a bunch of spotters or thousands of the great unwashed. I have no problem with security whatsoever and I am quite happy to be searched if that is what it takes. BUT you either have it or you dont, and what we had on the show sdays was a waste of everybodys time. That said it was well organised and very efficient.

So 9/10 for effort with 7.5/10 for aircraft participation.

The Reds and the F-117 were nice.

Photos will be up on Webshots when I have finished sorting through 4500 images!!!:uhoh:

[Regie Mental]

The use of volunteers at RIAT is commonly raised as a defence to any criticism of the show. Well done to them but as Paul and Tim get paid a lot of money to organise the show with a large team of paid staff they are responsible for anything good, or bad, about the event.

One common complaint which is never answered is the amount actually raised for charity. An answer would certainly put such things as the alleged high admission/programme/refreshment/park & view prices not to say salaries in context. Come on guys, come clean!

As for the show, been to better and to worse over the past 22 years, always a good weekend out and long may it continue. Also, probably the last time I'll see a military F-104 fly, so worth going for that alone.

Reg

[Mad_Mark]

AlanM,

BECOME A VOLUNTEER!!!


Or be a participant :D

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Cockney Geezer]

I was working on the non-public side of the event in security and frankly, I'm shocked at the complete lack of thought put into the event in terms of looking after the "volunteers" working at the event. Allocation of accomodation, transport and personnel management was shocking!

For example, live armed guards on the night shift were sited by the main entrance to tent city, managing 4 possibly 5 hrs sleep (due to being sited in tents next to a busy entrance offering no sound protection from aircraft) during the day before going on a 12hr duty with live armed weapons - not really ideal! Having yet to be deployed abroad, I can't believe that operational deployments of personnel are run anything like RIAT because if they are then I'm rather worried!

And as for security do the RAF Police actually get trained these days or do we simply recruit them, get them to watch half an episode of The Bill, and tell them to get on with it? I know first hand that half the time they didn't have a clue as to what was going on - "'Ere sarge, is my thumb supposed to be this far up my bum?"

Having returned now and chatted to my colleagues who were working on the public side of the event, we have all agreed that we will do our best to avoid "volunteering" for next year!

On the plus side I finnaly got to see the Eurofighter in action - looked impressive! And my burger from Burgers R Us, was sufficiently greasy to fill me up!

[Tocsin]

Cockney Geezer,

Try 24hr shifts for live armed guards, with 4hrs on stag at two locations, followed by 2 hrs (1.5 after admin) "rest"... not forgetting temperature, stand-to's, scud alerts, jingly false alarms, and t**ts wanting to 5.56 perforate wild dogs outside the wire...

Sounds like RIAT was fun!

[Wycombe]

Pilotwolf,

Brought up proper I was too. Like to think my kids are a credit to me ;) . Seriously, nothing annoys me more than other peoples little brats running amuck (and the parents too busy on their next beer/fag to do anything about it...don't get me started!)

Having 2 girls I thought I'd face a challenge getting them interested in aviation. But, not a bit of it - they want to go to another Airshow now....and go flying with me (but I think they're a bit young yet)

I've decided it'll be Old Warden, 3rd Aug (fabulous place to watch old aeroplanes, nice and close, if you've never been).

AlanM

You're right (again)....just need a "route in" :D

Cheers

[AlanM]

Mad Mark

Or be a participant

Mmm.. only so much bouncing down the runway I can do in a PA28 mate!

Regie

the amount actually raised for charity

far less than you would imagine I can promise you. I am of course NOT a voice for Paul, Tim, RIAT or RAFBFE, but you will be amazed at just how expensive it has become to insure/police such an event.

As for how much The Directors earn: Well - they work 10x harder than ANY director I have ever met I can hoenstly say. What's more, they have dedicated their life to running the world's biggest military airshow.

Wycombe

just need a "route in"

As you know - there are plenty of routes in to the show - depending on your availability etc. Try a diverse role for real fun! :)

[Cockney Geezer]

Tocsin,

I understand that manpower can be limited but what you say worries me further - RIAT was a non-operational task! I know that the guys can do a long shift if required but the conditions you describe sound ridiculous - do the smaller details not count?

What's the point in having an armed guard if they're too exhausted to react to a threat?

From your comments it seems that RIAT was (relatively speaking) a secure sight! Next time the fan is hit, is this really the standard of security? If we can't confidently secure our own operations area can we really expect to secure others????

Cockney Geezer

[DamienB]

Rather worryingly have heard that ITV reported attendance in 2003 was 100,000 people down on 2002, and Gloucestershire police reckon 2002's attendance was 200,000+. Almost a 50% loss in visitors?! Ouch.

If the RAFBF don't actually get a great deal from the event as has been suggested here (and this wouldn't surprise me given RIAT's silence on how much they actually do give to the RAFBF in the end), this year can't have been any good for them at all.

[sprucemoose]

First photo of the A330 and Tornado fly-by, for those who are in any way interested!

http://www2.janes.com/janesdata/mags/jdw/history/jdw2003/images/p0551956.jpg

:ok:

[Reichman]

As a military aircrew participant I thought the organisation was a complete bunch of a**e. We were made to feel as though we were privilaged to be allowed to bring our aircraft to such a prestigious event.

The aircrew hosting for us menial static display types was pathetic. The food and beer in the aircrew tent was more expensive than outside (Yes, it wasn't free like all other airshows are). I wasn't allowed party tickets for my groundcrew as they had come by road. A sign in Flying Ops stated "No slot time. No party ticket." I tried to get a departure slot at 1pm but was told that they were not being issued until 3pm. Guess what happened at 3pm - yep, queued for over an hour for a departure slot, then queued for the party tickets.

I don't know what these overpaid buffoons do in the year leading up to RIAT but it sure isn't organising. Take a look at how Waddington do it. Slicker, more fun and nobody gets paid.

[Tocsin]

Cockney geezer,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but just to say I'm glad the war (as opposed to the peace-keeping) was a short one.

We all recognised that sh*gged guards was not a good idea, but couldn't get the resources to match the committments - at least until one of the committments was all fired off!

Apart from anything else, longer term it doesn't enthuse the guard force to re-enlist!

However, RIAT was a nice, fat target for assymetric (sp?) warfare, so happy rested guards are a good idea there, too.

[BEagle]

sprucemoose - many thanks for the excellent picture of the A330 FSTA. Interesting to note that the Tornados are not 'in echelon' as others have alleged, but appear to be in the 'pre-contact position'. Clearly there'll be no significant proximity problems - such a positive display in a highly public arena shows EADS and AirTanker's confidence in the A330 as the Future STRATEGIC Tanker Aircraft. Well done indeed to all concerned.

[Zoom]

As a tanker, the A330 FSTA is a bit short of - well - tanking bits, don't you think? This makes the formating all a bit inconsequential.

'Right, Bloggs, just line up behind where you think the pod will be, then slide back a few feet to where you estimate the basket will dangle, and then go down a tad so that the imaginary thing doesn't go down your intake.'

All right, all right, I know it was only a demo!! :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Look more carefully and you'll notice pod line-up markings.....

Besides, as you say, it was a demo. The 'tanking bits' won't make much difference; the tanker and engine airflow characteristics are the dominant features.

But in a few years' time no doubt you'll have plenty of opportunities to see the real thing!

[Accelerometer]

:D This was my first RIAT and I thought the day for the fare paying punters was for the most part very well put together although it seemed some displays (the French) went on forever and the variety of Tornados must of been great for those hardcore spotters, but if I'd seen 1 Tornado with afterburner I'd seen them all but no, time after time low level past the crowd :* just when your trying to enjoy your fifth G&T, oh well you can't please everyone blah blah...
Big congrats for the aftershow party never have I seen so many flying suits crowded around possibly the smallest bar in the world and well the cluster to try and get back to our hotel on the coaches added about 1 1/2 hours to what was an evening of otherwise of accommodating half naked luvlies :ok: and a great band. so all in all great weekend

[Wycombe]

Although not from Flying Ops myself, I worked very close to it for a number of years as a RIAT Volunteer (not this year though)

From memory, most if not all of the Flying Ops guys are Military Air Trafficers (Officers and Airmen)

You said:

A sign in Flying Ops stated "No slot time. No party ticket."

I think that you've misinterpreted it's meaning. From my past experience, this didn't mean that Groundcrew cannot attend the hangar bash - merely, the intention of the notice was probably to ensure that Aircrew attend to book a dep slot/file a flightplan where necessary before Monday (so you don't get your hangar bash party tickets until you have).

This is because their workload, in trying to confirm outbound details for perhaps 300-400 aircraft on the Monday is huge, so they are only trying make sure that as much of this as poss is completed during the weekend and that 300 crews don't pitch up at 0800 Monday asking for it.

Don't forget too, they are Volunteers (and from my memory, the same guys turn up to do it year after year).

[Reichman]

Hi Wycombe,

Wasn't having a pop at the volunteers, who always do a fantastic job. It's the high paid help I have a problem with. They serve no useful purpose at all.

I understood what the "no slot, no party ticket" meant. I was told categoricaly that my groundcrew were not allowed to go to the party. This really hacked me off as many other groundcrew were there. Or do you have to be in the Reds or BBMF to count?

And why make everybody wait until 3pm on the Suday to get slot times? Wouldn't it have been easier to have a trickle throughout the day rather than all 300 at once?

I stil prefer Waddington ;)

[Didntdoit]

Reichman Dude

Can't help but jump in on the Party tickets debate. It may be that your groundcrew weren't allocated party tickets because your sqn didn't provide their names, as most of the other teams did. I appreciate that the sqn may not have known until late in the day, but given the numbers that the event can safely hold, there has to be a limit.

Why? Perspective check: there are a couple of thousand potential legit guests for the party. There are also, as I'm sure you have noticed, a number of potential guests that are general targets of opportunity form mid-Sunday afternoon onwards, if you know what I mean. I have lost count of the number of 'crew' who wear an ill-fitting flying suit, non-military shoes and out-of-regulation hair, who 'some idiot' forgot to put on the crew list. If these 'crew members' were all allowed entry, well, granted, it would be a target rich environment, but we would also need to hold it in a football stadium. My personal opinion, and it has been for some time, is that we are a little too an*l about the tickets issue, but I guess there has to be a limit.

As regards the timing of issue, there are 2 things you may not have considered. First, it takes a while to work out the departure slots for Monday and the Flight Ops guys shouldn't have to get up at 5am to issue slots for 1pm. Secondly, the less time people have to loose their tickets, the less will be lost!:ok: The 'I've lost my tickets' story is one that we got bored of 8 years ago. And another thing, once you are in the 'Elvis' on the C-17 (nuff respect to 99!), there is no way you want to leave it, so having an incentive to get your slot and party ticket and still have time to get back and enjoy the gatherings on the ATF fleet is a winning compromise, IMHO.

As regards the show itself, not a classic, but not bad either. I felt that the Typhoon was displaying in the Brize overhead, even from underneath the display line, but it was good to see in sqn markings at last. The Hangar Party was one of the best in a while; whilst to food problem was sorted, perhaps they can work on the bar next year. Finally, it was good, as ever, to meet up with so many good friends, from many nations, which, at the end of the day, is why I keep coming back.

Mind you, unlucky :suspect: 13 for this dude next year. Hmmmm.

Wycombe.

Please feel free to contact me if you want advice on getting an in.

DDI

ps - Maximum respect and thanks to the Hunters and Greens

[AlanM]

As an organiser of the Gala dinner/hangar party I don't issue the tickets.

However, there are tickets allocated to the aircrew first, and then other units.

As a crew, you will be given a number of tickets and these are to be distributed by your det commander I assume. Oddly enough I was approached during the party by an irate driver for one of the VIP's. He was part of an AAC det who's OC had taken all the tickets back from the groundcrew to invite friends, asking me if I could refuse entry to those.

Unfortunately, there is no way we can get everyone a ticket. The simple fact is that the hangar is only licensed by the base fire chiefs for 2500 max. We simply cannot get every one in. I (and the bar staff) would love to allow more in.

Also - I know it is pants that we are pulling the plug in the evening at 2330Hrs. The party is just beginning - but this is due to:

1. The bus drivers not running out of hours when delivering you back to your hotels

2. You are mostly flying the next day and it wouldn't be good for RIAT or the party sponsers to be pooring drink down your neck until the early hours - especially if there was an incident!

I know many friends who work for RIAT full time. I can't think of any one of them who is overpaid. As I said earlier, if you saw just how much work they do, and not only for the airshow which is only part of their year, you wouldn't do it for all the tea in China!!

[Reichman]

OK, just to put this thing to bed:

4 x groundcrew. All names passed several days before along with mine and other aircrew member. All accomodated together. All given same passess throughout weekend. Told categorically groundcrew couldn't have tickets.

How they got into that party I just don't know. ;)

[G Fourbee]

BEagle
l
So, "the tanking bits don't make much difference." Hmmm! The integration of the pod and pylon is crucial - just try telling that to the Marines (US) and the cottage industry from Dorset!

[BEagle]

G4B - whereas that lot down by the river aren't having any problems with IPRs, are they? There is a fair bit of maskirovka being put about regarding the -900; 'not invented here', perhaps?

Not pleasant to read that a certain aircraft manufacturer has allegedly been 'punished for spying' by the USAF........................

[Jackonicko]

-900?? (You do seem to have come round to the A330, BEags....)

[BEagle]

Well, Jacko....wait and see!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Paul, Tim - Gentlemen,

I was at RIAT (again) this year, but sadly it will be my last visit.
I was so disapointed with virtually everything there.
It was laid out poorly, the flying was poor, the lack of facilities were deplorable, the cost was too high plus the lack of toilets, rubbish bins blah.

All I could see were lots of aircraft (some very interesting ones) that were roped off with miles of blue rope. Why were they not roped off individually? to allow us to walk through them, and get to other areas instead of having to walk miles to get anywhere??

The 100 years of flight was great, (and the tribute to the Navy Firefly crew was a very nice touch) but why were we not able to get across to the trade sites on the far side of the taxi way when we came out of the 100 yrs exit? If we wanted to get over there, we would have had to walk literally miles!

Very poor RIAT - sorry. Prices were too high, and the time and distance to and from the car parks were a joke.
You will have to pull your finger out to get the public back, although this years' poor attendance pretty much says it all.

Finally, why is it that RIAT gives such a paltry sum to the Ben fund each year compared to say...em Waddo or Leuchars??

Could it be the overheads? or maybe the whole thing is a bit too 'top heavy' with retired airships?? Maybe it's the cost of all those post airshow parties? the ones the aircrew and groundcrew are NOT invited to?? Infact, why don't you publish some of the accounts here on PPrune ??

End of rant, night night

Best wishes

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, please cross RIAT off next years airshow list, there's a good chap!'

[AlanM]

Maybe it's the cost of all those post airshow parties? the ones the aircrew and groundcrew are NOT invited to??

Do you mean the Survivors Dinner on the Monday night?

Well - as you know the Gala Dinner and the Sunday Night Party are sponsored events (BAe and EADS respectively this year). Previous big names include RR and Lockheed Martin.

The aircrew have their own big extravagant party on Sunday night. All of the half empty bottles of alcohol (which cannot be taken back as part of the sale return agreement of course) are sent for the remainder of the volunteers to drink on the Monday night. The same is said for the food I believe and entertainment is by way of a disco.

Simple as that. Are their other parties I haven't been invited too then?!?!!?:{

How much do the other shows raise for the fund ?

I know Paul and Tim would be more than happy to receive your comments in writing if you have any suggestions on improving the show in any aspect.

[The Swinging Monkey]

AlanM,

Paul and Tim take no notice of anyone's comments.
Thats why we have the same recurrant problems every year........
cost, toilets ad nausium!!

As for how much the others raise.... well I can tell you that Waddo DONATE a great deal more to the Ben fund than RIAT does! so how does that work........

Come on Paul and/or Tim Explain it for us simple mortals, theres good chaps.

Lastly, I know it's a sensitive point, but look at all the 'freebies' that are given away by RIAT. Yes I know it's for kids but.......
who needs it most? I would suggest that the Ben fund does - sorry kids.

Regards
The swinging Monkey

[AlanM]

TSM

But without the kids clearing up/providing manpower/doing the FOD plod there would be no show. Therefore a few sponsored hats/T shirts is small fry.

So who staffs the Waddo show? - I have never been. Who does all the menial jobs?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Alan,

Everyone staffs it, from Harry the Staish to the lowliest of the low - including all the aircrew.

I know the ATC and others do a great job, and I'm not knocking them, but........
the Ben fund is in a poor state, lets give the money to those who really need it eh? even for just a couple of years until the fund is back on its feet.

And there would still be a show, even without the freebies - after all, they get a free entrance to a £30.00+ a day airshow!!

Regards
The Swinging Monkey

[AlanM]

TSM,

I (kinda) agree with what you are saying.

I would guess that RIAT no longer gets the amount of support (in terms of manpower/equipment) that it used to receive from the Military.

An example would be the vehicles. When I started at RIAT I was given an RAF landrover to use. Obviously, a lot of volunteers are now civilians so that is unworkable. This year my vehicle was a rented Punto. There used to be lots of trainees used to help build the site on det from Halton etc. That has stopped. (Before you say anything - I can understand that, esp with the number of other Ops the boys and girls are on)

There are lots of ways that RIAT could save money. However, you need to look at what is donated by the RAFBF Enterprise as a whole - and see that the air show - whilst not a loss leader - is very much the show piece. A lot of additional revenue is gained from the Aviation Catalogue/Annual concert tours etc.

To sum: I think it is unfair to equate the two shows in financial gain/show costs.

[DamienB]

If as our simian friend suggests Waddington, (with its attendance of a quarter or so of RIAT I think - and ticket prices of less than half), donates more to charity than RIAT, then regardless of the reasoning for this disparity I wish the RIAT defenders would stop using the 'It's all for charity' response whenever anyone knocks any aspect of the show.

But I really would love to know if this disparity exists for real, where does all RIAT's money go? If the parties, t-shirts, baseball caps etc. are all sponsored, come on, tell us all where the money goes... I hear less than 50p a ticket ends up in the RAFBF coffers!

[AlanM]

DB

I think the major difference is in the fact that the Waddo show is in effect in-house. Therefore the overhead costs are bound to be cheaper.

Also - don't forget that RIAT has no home as such. I am sure that the insurance costs for lodging at a USAF base as opposed to your own base are far greater. (not least becaude of the war and the security consequences).

As I keep saying - RIAT is the showpiece and the launch platform for other RAFBFE fundraising. RIAT has NEVER been a huge earner for the fund.

Either way - you have to think of it as a whole: At least they are putting SOME money in - and all the crews get to have a great time, do they not?

We could ask the public to simply drive past the gates and put a tenner in a bucket - now that would raise some money but be a whole lot less fun.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Alan,

I hate to harp on old chap, but you really are missing the point. As Damian asks..where does all the money go?? that is all people like me want to know.

I have had the honour to be involved in Waddo's show, and Damian is quite correct - the prices are much less than half of RIATs and the attendance is probably less than a quarter of a 'good' RIAT. Therefore, we must ask the question....'why does RIAT give such a paltry amount to its 'own' RAFBF charity?'

The overheads are NO cheaper for Waddo (are you suggesting that RIAT pays the RAF/USAF for use of the base??!!)

The insurance is just the same. And let me tell you that the crews DO NOT get a great time! Believe me, whenever my Sqn was ordered to take a jet to RIAT, trying to find a crew was not easy - aircrew DID NOT WANT TO GO!! It was a great deal of nauseous hassle quite frankly.

Now, we can argue about T-shirts and baseball caps and other freebies all day long, and I will concede that in the overall scheme of things, it is NOT a lot of money. But that only adds further weight to my question of 'where does all the money go?'

As for your comment about putting at least 'some money in' well quite frankly thats an appalling statement. It's not what goes into the fund that is in question here....it's what DOES NOT go into the fund that needs addressing, and I don't see or hear anyone from RIAT coming forth to tell us, do you?

Enough said, I feel sad that RIAT has done so badly this year, but it is all of their own making. I only hope that the rot can be halted, and the whole event doesn't die.

Rant over

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, a very large glass of the Famous amber fluid I think'

[Still Smiling]

TSM

Not a scribley, so could be talking utter rubbish, but surely the RIAT organisation must be regestered as a Limited Company at the least (if not a PLC), and therefore they should have to submit their end of year accounts to Companies House, who in turn have an obligation to make them available to the general public.

SS

[LOMCEVAK]

TSM et al,

There have been several comments made such as "The flying was poor". If you can provide more details then perhaps something can be done to improve it. Specifically, do you mean the organistaion of the flying programme or the execution of individual displays? Examplea please.

[DamienB]

LOMCEVAK - I couldn't disagree more strongly with the 'flying was poor' bit - the flying was on the whole highly entertaining, though the MiG-29 was put on too early as nobody could hold a candle to him for sheer enjoyment though the Typhoon came close.

What was poor was the gaps between each act - in the past you'd have the next act already in the air or holding near the end of the runway when the previous act finishes, not so this year. Often it seemed the next act was hiding behind a hangar somewhere, would meander lazily towards the runway and then sit there for a few minutes to boot.

The schedule was not held to very well (particularly on Sunday when it seemed nobody had any idea what was next, and the published programme was pure fiction) either. If you're just camped out watching the flying that doesn't matter so much but if you wanted to see the static and picked a time of day that didn't have anything flying of interest to you, you were bound to find your favourite act taking to the air just at the point you were 2 miles away from the crowdline and knee deep in rivet counters. No doubt the schedule changes were out of anybody's control but there were just so many of them!

I have heard others moan that the display did not include a wide enough representation of the 100 years of flight theme - I wasn't that bothered, RIAT's always been more about jet noise than prop jobs. But it'd have been nice to see some formations to mark the theme - Spitfire & Typhoon perhaps, Gnat & Hawk, Sea Fury, Sea Vixen & Sea Harrier (I can dream!), etc. With so many F-16s and Tornados in the display the lack of other types did show up a bit.

Sounds like quite a moan that lot but overall I enjoyed the show a lot and none of the flying was 'poor'!

[Fox3snapshot]

Least you got there to comment on how much fun you did or didn't have!

Waaaagggghhhh! My spotting days are over....off to Pat Pong Road or Wan Chai instead, forgive me for I am about to sin!



:E

[LOMCEVAK]

DamienB,

Thank you very much for your constructive comments - they most certainly do not come across as a moan. I will make sure that your comments are passed on. And thank you for the outstanding pictures of RIAT that you have posted on another thread, the Frecce Tricolore ones in particular! Any of the Patrouille de France?

Best Regards

L

[DamienB]

Afraid not. Went for a walk round the static when they were on. Thought I'd get them the next day in the air, forgetting that they also leave shows on Sunday morning to go home!

[The Swinging Monkey]

LOMCEVAK,

I take it from your thread that you are in some way remotely associated with the said airshow and particularly the flying display??

If that's so, and you genuingly want constructive critisism, let me ask you this.......
considering nearly every past IAT/RIAT - do you think the flying display was good? I would suggest to you that it was not Sir!

Big gaps, no flow, nothing like to £7.00 brochure blah. I know you cannot guarantee the brochure, but sunday was nothing like as was advertised.

I'm sorry, it was not good, and whilst in the overall scheme of things it might not accurately have been poor, for a RIAT I'm afraid IT WAS VERY POOR.

The Swinging Monkey

[Bright-Ling]

TSM

Hey Mr Aviator - why not donate your free time and obvious expertise in all things airborne to the show and make things better.

After all - the many civilian volunteers like me are only trying to increase the money in YOUR fund. I would guess that up to 50% of the volunteers will never benefit from the fund whereas you may.

However - an applicant really does need a "can-do" attitude and that is probably not in you I am sad to say.

To sum: It wasn't a vintage perfomance but it was by no means a bad one.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/FMSbolls.gif

[Didntdoit]

Bright-Ling

As a now civilian, ex-mil volunteer , your words have meaning and force. Those that can't...........teach.

TSM and all those others that are happy to criticise, which of course, you are all more than entitled to do; there is more to an airshow than just turning up. There is no denying though that some things need to be done differently; I for one would not put te flying display in the programme. Why not come and join the team and make a difference.

Or is it easier from where you are...........? ;-)

[Regie Mental]

As I stated in an earlier post on this thread, the 'volunteer' argument is always trotted out when anyone has the audacity to criticise RIAT.

If you want to make a real difference as a volunteer, why not join the RAuxAF which is always on the lookout for new recruits. You'll make a much bigger difference to the welfare of those serving I would suggest by guarding a gate in Basra than selling programmes at Fairford.

Reg

[bluetail]

Its interesting to note the many comments about this years RIAT, as a 19 year veteran volunteer I thought this years static was really very good, but they (PAUL & TIM) certainly missed the trick with the flying display, 100 years of Flight was the main theme (sorry Kipper Fleet Chaps) but the flying was mostly metal, where were the Bi-planes, BBMF, Hunters and Gnats, and the show should have closed most certainly with the Typhoon (which was bloody good I might add).

And why did the lords and masters stop the squadrons sending their marked up jets, I heard from many a source that a 3 line whip was enforced to stop them sending these types of jets, (although it didnt stop 39) It shows complete fear of Blair and his cronies by the current top brass.

My only real adverse comment on the show, just how did the REDs and the F117 formation get the best overall flying demonstration prize, was it for completing the undoubted mountain of paperwork, it was just a formation flypast for gods sake.
:{ :sad:

[Bright-Ling]

I and no doubt the Directorship of RIAT have no problem with constructive criticism.

Regie

Please don't start the RAUXAF debate on this thread - that could be started on another! BUT I have done a year longer with RIAT than I have with the Oggies. I was kinda "forced" to resign my Commission - as a Jnr Off's pay simply wouldn't pay my mortgage and I would undoubtedly been the first to go on my Squadron. As much as I loved my time there, losing my house to stand with a gat in Basra simply ain't worth it.

Back to the thread..........!

Bluetail

I agree - it wasn't a bad dispaly - if you like tornados! But I must admit I expected some kind of finale within the 100yr theme.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Mr Bright Thing,
I certainly don't claim to be an expert in all things airborne - but after 32 years of flying mainly 'heavies' I do know just a incy weenie little bit! And as for having a 'can do' attitude eh? ho ho!

The fact is that you, and most of your IAT volunteers are unable to take any form of criticism arn't you? You hate it, and anyone who complains in the slightest, you jump on.

I have been to IAT lots of times over the past 30+ years. As aircrew its NOT GOOD. We give up our weekend (just like you I know) get bussed around till 'kingdom come' get 'ripped off' with the prices! yes, this year the food in the aircrew tent was MORE expensive than for Joe Public! and generally get treated like 2nd class citizens.

If you don't believe me, just ask the guys from the kipper fleet, or the truckie fleet, or infact any RAF aircrew. If they're honest (and not some 18 yr old spog) then they will tell you the same story.

And do try not to take everything so personally. No one doubts or questions the loyalty and commitment of the volunteers. The complaints are aimed at those at the top of RIAT. By your own admission it wasn't vintage. Well, thats an understatement, especially as it's RIAT, sopposedly the 'Biggest military airshow in the world' and for that reason, it wasn't good.

As for joining the team - I couldn't stand the frustration of watching that wheel being re-invented every year. IAT takes no notice of senior serving officers, what makes you think they will take any notice of a retired one??

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, send Bright-Ling a large Grouse to calm him down!'

[Grob Driver]

The Swinging Monkey…

It’s funny how that Bright thing (probably not so bright though!) suggests you join up to show then how it should be done! Bright thing? Have you been to the Waddington air show before? I suggest you go some time, then you’ll see how an air show should be run! And indeed what a bonus it can be to have a swinging monkey on your side!

The problem with RIAT is that they just don’t take notice of what people are saying. It can’t be said that this year was a great show… The 100 years of flight was very good, and I accept that there aren’t many other places in the world where you will see that much hard wear in one place. But what happened to the big show stoppers. Russian bears, SU27’s static B2’s Backfires… It was all good stuff, but nothing to make you too excited. And then there’s just all the hassle that goes with RIAT. Security searches, no toilets, bla bla bla the list goes on.

RIAT… take note of this. Mr and Mrs Bloggs are starting to show their frustration.

[Regie Mental]

Bluetail - the presence of Tornados bearing nose-art would not have made a blind bit of difference to the non-enthusiast attendee at the show. It certainly made no difference to the flying display, the treatment of aircrew etc.

Bright Lung - I went on Telic, got paid full civilian salary despite lower junior officer pay, and did the job I signed up for. Oh, and photographed a lot of the nose-art on the Tornados!

Reg
:p

[Bright-Ling]

'Caruther's - send us a fishing net we have caught three big-uns!'

oh how we all laughed in the ops room :)

Mmmm - have a life or take pics of tornado noses.......zzzzzzzzz

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/tossometer.gif

[Grob Driver]

Fading light, sorry, I mean bright thing, I guess by the ‘ops room bit’ you mean something to do with RIAT? Exactly, your point just emphasises our frustrations. Your givatoss ometer is hardily reading anything (you and RIAT obviously ont give a toss), and you all laugh in the ops room at people comments and suggestions. No wonder RIAT has entered that slippery slope! You cant go on relying on past performances… you have to give the public what they want.

[Bright-Ling]

I don't work in THAT Ops room you dilbert!!

[Grob Driver]

A dilbert.,.. haa haa. That one really did make me laugh!

Guess what everyone… The grob Driver is a dilbert!

Oh dull thing, sorry, bright thing, get a life… Dilbert!

signed...

Sir Dilbert the grob driver

[Bright-Ling]

Is it annoying, me knowing who you and R-M (especially who I have met) are, Gob Driver??

MB

:ok:

[DamienB]

Come on lads, get a room :p

I hear the RIAT mob have said "The feedback from the public is that this year’s show is one of the best ever, and with the Red Arrows’ unique flypast with the F-117 and the majestic 100 Years of Flight presentation it is not difficult to see why."

(my emphasis)

No comment!

[Grob Driver]

Bright thing, no it’s not really too annoying that you claim to know who I am although if it’s true then obviously, it causes a certain amount of curiosity as to who you may be! Personally, I’m not sure if you do know who I am though. Maybe you do… You wouldn’t be the first person to know me, and I certainly hope you won’t be the last! Are we ‘friends’ or you “Know me”? How is that you know who I am?

Damien, the Red Arrows / F117 flypast was very nice to see but in my eyes (Not fact this… Only my opinion) it takes more than 1 flypast to make a good show!

Cheers

Dilbert Grob Driver

[StopStart]

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/Itchscratch.gif



:rolleyes:

[DamienB]

GD - I wasn't agreeing with the statement - insert virtual shaking head movement...

[Guido]

Another slanging match in the making?

[atb1943]

Earlier in the sensible part of this thread there were calls for the Fund to reveal its figures. I can well imagine it would not happen here, but as a registered company I am sure the figures can be obtained, probably at Public Records Office. Here's RAFBFE's description of itself, from the website rafbfe.co.uk:

The Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund Enterprises (RAFBFE) is the trading arm of the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund (RAFBF). The company is limited by guarantee and is a wholly owned subsidiary activity of the Fund. RAFBFE covenants all profits annually to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund Development Trust.

The aims of the company are to:

Promote the recruitment and efficiency of the Royal Air Force

Raise monies and create awareness for the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund, currently through its 'Reaching Out' campaign to those in need

RAFBFE is best known for staging the Royal International Air Tattoo, which it organises each year, normally in July. In addition RAFBFE:

Organises the annual Royal Air Force Band Concert Tours to venues throughout the UK

Sells AvIATion related Gifts and Souvenirs

Publishes aviation books and magazines including the Royal Air Force Year Book

Has an MBNA Affinity card scheme

Provides logo licensing opportunities to various market sectors

Provides ticketing, donation handling, mailing, and fulfilment services for external events, charities and other organisations

Provides an aviation consultancy service for other airshows, both in the UK and overseas



The Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund Enterprises is a Company (Registration No 2190393) Limited by guarantee, covenanting all profits to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund Development Trust (Registered Charity No. 210848). The company's registered office is: 67 Portland Place, London, WINB 1AR. The company's offices are located at:

Douglas Bader House
Horcott Hill
Fairford
Gloucestershire
GL7 4RB
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0)1285 713300
Fax: +44 (0)1285 713268
E-Mail: [email protected]

I find this bit interesting: RAFBFE covenants all profits annually to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund Development Trust.
So what does the Trust do with it?

I found some indication in the book 'Airshow' by Graham Hurley (which all you doubters should read, even though it's 5 years old). For example, the book mentions that the budget for the 1998 show was a massive 2.8 million pounds sterling. Last year's (1997) cheque, it states, was 424,000 pounds, 'the biggest ever'.
More figures from '98 - the sale of aircraft checklists produced 11,704.09 (at 2.50 each...!)...souvenir programmes yielded 99, 980.21...spectators paying at the gate 151,907.85...yesterday's show raised a whacking 338,774.07......

Paul and Tim, bless 'em, are not necessarily the right people to aim darts at about missing toilets, greasy burgers, etc. No, there is a long list of staffers each with a particular responsibility, and although RIAT enjoys a longevity in its staffers, I don't know how the current list compares with 1998.

No doubt about it though, RAFBFE is a huge organisation with what must be megabucks (and I mean MEGA) in the bank (s), which does puzzle you when you hear the same old grouses every year. There must be enough in the coffers to make everyone happy, so I wonder why there is a perceived lack of attention to simple details. I am sure that if such details were omitted from the Corporate hospitality side of things there'd be questions asked in the house.

Public conveniences (I don't just mean bogs) seem to be sadly lacking, compared to the wealth of hardware on display. It could be so much better.

But I guess if Damien's photos get any better (possible?) I won't need to go at all, I'll just sit here and scroll!!!

cheers

[Jordan D]

I was one of the cadets there on Friday, and even though I had to endure a 4hr coach journey there and another one on the way back to Cranwell (we were on camp there), let me tell you even the weather didn't dampen the spirits ....

It was my first RIAT, and I will definately be going back ... it seemed welll organised, except for some very poor security arrangments at the gate, and a distinct lack of bins anywhere (pity the poor people who have to pick all the FOD up!). The statics were very good on the whole, though a distinct lack of being up close and personal with them (but as this was my first I shan't complain too much). Was nice to go inside the C17 though.

As for the aerial display on Friday, it got better as it went along, and both sets of Flying Display teams (The Red Arrows and the Italians) were excellent ... as were the Lynx and fighter aircraft displays ... apart from that it was a tad short on the aerial stuff.

On the whole though, well worth the day out ... especially as it was free!

Jordan

[The Swinging Monkey]

Gentlemen,
Not a great deal to add really, just wanted to get this thread back up the chain.

Bright thing,
calling people names, sadly epitomises what I've been saying all along. A dilbert, humm, well, I don't know if the Grob Driver is a dilbert or not, but from his posts, he certainly has a more mature attitude than you Sir. Question: what does that make you, Not-so-bright thing ?? Lots of words spring to mind.

Damian, if people think that this years' show was the best ever......I can only assume its either:
a. Their first airshow
b. Their first airshow for abou em.....100 years!

Regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, did you get a net for that Bright thing Chappy?'

[bluetail]

Just a thought on what the RAFBF receives, maybe this year it will significantly less, Crowds on Saturday (anoraks day) were much lower than usual, I,ve heard figures of 65K mentioned which is down a good 40% and Sunday (Joe Public day) was slightly better at 110K again well down 20% or so.

My opinion , is that this was a direct result of the ridiculous security checks in 2002, good old Joe Public has spoken with its feet, they will not stand to queue for 2 hours in a car and then another 90 mins in a security queue. (I even had to queue on the Saturday night bash for 45minutes to get in even after going through two security checks)......speaks for itself. Paul and Tim will do well to take note of this.

As for the Friday "YOUTH DAY" (and I,ve never seen so many youth,s in suits) the flying display presented was mostly practises, hence the NORMAL 45 minute "Froggy " offering, but without doubt this has now become a three day event, which makes life increasingly difficult for volunteers, we had to have most of the static ready for Thursday evening..failed there unfortunately.

One final thought, for your entry fee you were able to view some 448 Static aircraft together with another 87 visiting charters et al, a grand total of 535 aircraft, maybe that just about makes it the largest military show in the world. The static was great, might have been one of the best, but the show was spoiled by an iffy flying display.

[Grob Driver]

Hi Damien,

I know you weren’t agreeing with the statement. My point was that RIAT get these good reports, and the tell everyone how good the show was… Look at all the good things that people are saying etc. I’m sure it wont be long before all the aviation mags have an interview with Paul / Tim, and they’ll start quoting these people who were so happy to see X at the show. The point is that you and I both know it wasn’t a 1st class show! Unlike your pictures which were tip top!

Bright thing,

If you do actually know me, then you’ll know this all just banter. You need to have a good bit of banter to be on Pprune. Calling you dull thing etc, is all part of the game (like you calling me Gob Driver!… I like that!) The point is that know me or not, I stand by my views… We can chat about it on the net, or over a beer… I wouldn’t say anything different to you because you know who I am. The facts remain that RIAT is not what it once was, and that change isn’t necessarily for the better!

[Bright-Ling]

Grubby...!

I know it's banter me old - that's what life is all about! I do agree with you on most of your points. I just feel I need to defend the relatively few permanent staff. Despite what anyone feels about the directorship, the other managers all work very hard for the fund. If you saw the hours that they worked and the effort they put in you would be amazed - and then couple that to their not massive salaries and you would be impressed!

Anyway - looking forward to my pint of black stuff when we next meet. Could be sooner than you think!!!!! :)

[The Swinging Monkey]

Grob Driver,

Spoooooky - Mr Bright Thing knows who you are, Oh no!!

When you do eventually both meet for this cosy little chat, please will you invite me along? (I'l be the one in the 'goon suit' carrying a Strop!!) acting strangely!

Bright Ling, I have little doubt about the amount of work that goes on at RIAT - none of us do. The enthusiasm is self evident, and RIAT WOULD NOT survive without it's big band of volunteers, that is a fact. But alas, RIAT has rested on its laurels for too long, and this year it got 'bit in the bum' and the biggest loser will be the RAFBF

Please don't think that we are having a go at you guys - far from it. We are asking probing and difficult questions about the donation to RAFBF every year, and bringing up the same whinges that are highlighted every year. Now, I am sure you are an intelligent chap, and so you must concede that the 'moans' are legitimate and of concern.

RIAT was NOT good this year, apart from the 100 yrs of flight, which was, unquestionably, wonderful. So well done for that, but not-so-well-done on most everything else;
Toilets
Parking
Flying
Cost to get in (contolled by RIAT)
Cost of food (which RIAT also controls)
Cost of programme ((again, which RIAT controls)
I rest my case Sir................................

Anyway, I look forward to meeting you and the Grob driver, at a secret location somewhere in darkest England!! Don't forget to invite me!!

Kind regards

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, time to get the rubber suit out old man!'
Vast areas being 'roped off' (why couldn't individual aircraft have been roped off? Was there a worldwide shortage of Blue string??

[Grob Driver]

THS,

I thought you said that it was time to hang up your strop and stop swinging? Sorry me old chap, but I just thought I’d remind you of that!! Anyway, you’d look pretty daft in a strop while Bright ling and I share a glass of that famous black stuff!

Bright ling, I’m curious… PM me with exactly who you think I am, or where you know me from… I’m not sure if I’m who you think I am!

I’m pleased to hear thought that we largely agree on the RIAT issues. This isn’t a name and shame forum. Paul, Tim and his team do a great job. No doubt about that. I personally defend them on the cost too. £40 for a day at the worlds biggest military airshow. Not bad value really. You’d pay more than twice that to watch formula 1. You can pay twice that for 2 hours at the theatre! I just wish, hope, plead that they listen to peoples concerns, and act on them. We need to old IAT back…

Grob Driver

[Jordan D]

I know that this was my first time at RIAT and it was on Armed Forces Day, but for the majority of people there on the day it was the first time and was impressive, especially as it was Free Entry ...

I've got to congratulation the Static Manager, for putting together a superb set of aircraft, only thing was there was a distinct lack of personnel near some of the aircraft that you could ask things about. At least we got in the back of the C17.

Jordan

[Porge]

A few words about Sunday because you were correct, it was nothing like the programme. Firstly, the programme is printed way too far in advance and there are inevitable changes, even down the the last days before the show. However, on Sunday itself, the goat started when the USAF ground support for the B2 flypast mixed up their Zulu and local times which meant that the aircraft would turn up one hour later than planned. When this was realised, the Flying Display people had to trash the original programme, see what was able to fly and then keep the space open for the B2 to fly-by when it did. Combine this with F-16 unserviceabilities and the need to have the B-1 doing 4 county turns just to keep something in the air, the programme did not run as smoothly as it could have done. As for the display running seamlessly, most display crews like a runway start and do not want to carry out an airborne start. This leads to time being used as they line up, do final checks before launching into the blue yonder.

The Porge

Way too far away for slings and arrows to hurt

[AlanM]

....and any thruth in the rumour that the Utterly Butterly boys (and girlies:)) were grounded by the FCC after going below 100 feet on the Saturday??

Shame - was a good display and the girlies looked mighty fine at the Sunday Night Party!

(the best call was when then MC was waiting to do the show display awards, and transmitted outside asking the Utt Butt girls to come in "so that the guys would follow"!!)

Are RAF crews that shallow??!!!!!!!!??:ok:

[bluetail]

Jordan D

The aircraft are parked by a team of highly professional RAF and civilian aircraft engineers. Some of whom travel from the USA, New Zealand and Dubai to attend as a volunteer, (UNPAID I might add)

This year our boss received the SPIRIT of RIAT award for his efforts, this is an internal RIAT award given to the volunteers and is highly prized.

We park the static aircraft with exact precision, which has been our trademark over the years, it gives us great pride to achieve our task every year.

This year just 74 of us, the longest day I personnally worked thisd year was 19 Hours, but it is not unusual to work 12/14 hour days, usually darkness stops the effort.

We get them all in in 3/4 days and get them out safely in 1.

There are still true "LINEYS" around, no bitching or moaning, just hard workers.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Blue Tail,

I'm curious about your comment:

............................................................ .........................................
The aircraft are parked by a team of highly professional RAF and civilian aircraft engineers. Some of whom travel from the USA, New Zealand and Dubai to attend as a volunteer,
............................................................ ..........................................

I doubt if anyone has criticised your efforts or indeed the efforts of any volunteer, so why the need for the statement?
I presume (??) that RIAT pays the volunteers for the return airfair to and from Dubai, the States and NZ? if they DO, then shame on them, because it is yet a further waste of valuable money for the charity. You will never convince me or indeed anyone in this country that we need to get people in from such places. We are awash with good true 'lineys' as I am sure you know.

How dissapointed you must all have been therefore to find that all of your precision parking was wasted by the idiots who roped off miles and miles of aircraft all together, thus denying the public to walk between the aircraft and admire your parking!

Never mind, it will be better next year I expect (after all, thats what we are told eacjh year isn't it?)

Grob Driver'
Thanks for bringing me back to reality - 'me got carried away in nostalgia about strops and rubber suits! I'll go take a lie down and come back to my senses!!

Kind regards

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, get me a large Pronto Tonto!'

[bluetail]

Swinging Monkey

The three guys mentioned all get to FFD by their own methods, the chap from the USA over the years has arrived by various US military means, this year a P3 from JAX, the chap from Dubai works for Emirates so gets a freebee and the guy from NZ payed his way over again this year, none of them, just like the rest of us get refunds.

Anyway one volunteer is allways better than 10 pressed men, we tried that at Cottesmore 1, it didn,t work, 5pm came..... they left, thats when the hard work starts.

As a point here the most any of us get is a max £36 is travel expenses, I personnal drive from Scotland, and have done for many years. I,ve never questioned it.

Your second point about allowing the public over the barriers was tried in the early days, it is fraught with danger, unfortunately you would be surprised what ended up down aircraft intakes, and its not only happened at FFD. I recall a Nimrod at Mildenhall a few years ago had several items removed from it when crowds were allowed in and around aircraft and if I remember a guy was even caught trying to crawl down a jet pipe.

Sorry but I would not be to keen to allow Joe public in and around aircraft, people in th UK do not have the same attitude to hardware as they do in say the USA, where I agree it is the norm.

[Rhys S. Negative]

Allowing the spectators to walk between the aircraft on static display would be unpopular with the many photographers who like to get 'people free' shots of their subjects.

And yes, roping off the aircraft individually would take a heck of a lot more 'blue string'.

RSN

[Jordan D]

Thanks bluetail for the insight ...

This may seem like an odd question, but how does one become a volunteer?

Jordan

[bluetail]

Jordan D

To become a volunteer you need to contact RIAT at Douglas Bader House, RAF FAIRFORD Gloucs, obviously you need a skill that they can use.

Or get on the RAFBF website http://www.rafbfe.co.uk/ and see what they are offering on the link.

[AlanM]

Did PL get the award then at survivors? I had to shoot off. He deserves it purely for getting the aircraft in H1200 and out again for the gala dinner! Well done to him and his team.

For what it's worth, I have never in my time there claimed for the mileage. Furthermore, many others like me use their mobile phones on RIAT business and don't claim it back. RIAT normally costs me £60+ out of my own pocket.

And I know I am not the only one.

[2port]

AlanM

Totally true, they got a "red card" after their Saturday display. Not sure exactly what their height bust was though.

Gratuitous sexist comment coming up: but their bust height was about 5' 1".

[StopStart]

Yeah, but they starting bitchin' when we started putting zaps on their Utt Butts! I think the excuse they used was something about the sponsors of their skin tight suits not liking it....? Whatever.

I had to instead console myself with applying waterslide Sqn tattoos to various parts of various young ladies for the rest of the evening.....

Hey Ho.. :p

[Runaway Gun]

Stopstart, did you take any photos as evidence? :)

[2port]

Stoppers

Are you losing your touch, I recall they were covered by end of evening.

[StopStart]

Maybe it was just my technique then.......

Didn't get any photos as evidence I'm afraid although I have a vague memory of one young lady becoming slightly embarrased and shy during a tattoo application.
Apparently her husband had just arrived and didn't approve of tattoos being placed on that particular region of his wife....

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/la.gif

:E

[bluetail]

ALANM

Actually it was PaulE who got the award, PL just put on the stupid trousers at Survivors. PE got a 5 minute standing ovation and the rest of us just got completely wasted.

As for pictures, catch the RIAT Engineers WEB SITE..if you know the URL, there are some beauties from 2002, and some even better ones this year......

As for technique....just watch the engineers in action..its very basic but straight to the point(s)

[raf4]

Honest question.
For those mentioning Waddo v RIAT overheads, do Waddo actually pay for any aircraft to attend?
I don't mean hotels etc, I mean actually pay for the aircraft's appearance.
The reply may be enlightening.

bluetail
19 years is a long time! Seems like only yesterday though doesn't it?

AlanM
Missed you for that pint this year, maybe 2004. You also owe bluetail a few, he was up very late on the
fri night/sat morning being a "prime mover" if you get my drift.
If you don't have the RIAT Eng URL let me know and I'll send you a PM.

:cool:

[Jordan D]

Thanks for the linke bluetail.

Jordan

[bluetail]

RAF4

are we known to each other????????

The RAF might well have to pay for other units jets to take part in a show, I was involved in trying to put a PHOTOcall together at ICE STATION KILO a few years ago, one issue was Budgets, mostly fuel and accomadation and who pays, obviously we tried to get most to stay on base but still ran into issues

Might generate a few interesting threads though.

[raf4]

Ah bluetail
We've known each other since way before that infamous first
1985 show. ;)
Did you keep the Survivor's napkin as a momento???? :{

On the "who pays for what" I meant actually paying for the
aircraft to attend, not the fuel, accom, transport etc.
I believe RIAT have but I may be wrong. Can anybody at RIAT
either confirm or deny? Just a thought!

:}

[bluetail]

RAF4

I had a private message from you.......but no content:{

Come on then send me a proper mail:ok: :ok:

Continuing your thread, it may actually be true, for oversea,s airforces (Russians etc, but I beleive they now want to much hence none appearance this year)

[AlanM]

Boys

TO those that I owe
MORE beer to..... sorry! There's always next year!!!! (Mail me before hand and you will not be forgotten!)

Grwat website - the big push for Friday afternoon and night is never forgotten. Glad at least you guys were rewarded this year with an award. Nice one.

As for that PL one - shocking trousers. Glad he got promoted before donning those pants!! what are the Air Force Board up to!???????? (only joking me old)

Take care guys and girls from eng and fuels. You do work hard, you are volunteers and despite the whinges here you do make a difference. But you know that.

AM

[bluetail]

Now I know why we never got our extra Beer Chits and bottles of wine on Friday night,

We asked,,, and got back the martian stare. But thank the hangar guys anyway, I dont think I trashed the carpet,

Will there be a next year?????


Air Defence 2004 (or whatever its going to be called) will be a nightmare...talk about re-inventing the wheel,

Still at least the volunteers will know which bit to stay away from.

[Porge]

To try and answer raf4's question about payment, with one noticeable exception, RIAT pay for the aircrew and support elements accomodation, fuel for some nations and also for the aircraft participation both static and display. This also includes all British military aircrat. At the end of the season, RIAT will get a bill from STC for all the display acts and the statics that took part. Some countries, noticeably the Russians, ask for an extortionate fee, in the 10s of thousands, which as bluetail correctly suggests, remains the reason why they seldom come over. The one notable exception to all this are the Americans who pay all their own bills.

The Porge

remains hot and dusty

[bear force one]

Like some of the others we have been attending (R)IAT for many yeasr and I cant remember it being so quiet before. I really miss the opportunity to photograph all those pushchairs, almost obscured by the pesky aircraft.

RIAT have always compared themselves to other family days out and guess this is what finally happens when you ignore enthusiasts. We always go to airshows and RIAT's are now THE event, a kind of airshow globalisation. We have to go because so many other excellent airshows have fallen by the wayside.

The General Public on the other hand can go to Alton Towers or Legoland or whatever. I understand the reason for the increased security but if I had four kids in tow and the choice between going straight to the candy floss or queuing for an hour to get an anal probe and see some jets I dont know the name of and all look the same, I'd pick Alton Towers too.

I read a very good review of RIAT 2001 which gave good and bad points to which the RIAT reply was "the majority enjoyed the show" and ignored the negative comments. The majority dont send in comments so dismissing the negatives out of hand shows a hefty arrogance on someones part.

Volunteers, as ever, keep the whole thing together and thanks as always to them.

[bluetail]

I got an interesting Thank you Card from RIAT in the post this morning, contained within it was a flyer stating that cost cutting measures were to happen due to the decrease in numbers attending this years show,

The Christmas Card has gone, as has the "Fairford Focus" that,ll save alot (not)

This I think sums up the concern at DB House that all is not well with RIAT, It will be interesting to see the donation figures to the RAFBF, What concerns me is that they (IAT) appear to be blaming everything else but themselves,

nothing has changed then

[Didntdoit]

bluetail,

I await the washup's with interest. However, you'll recall from Survivors that no mention was made of cost; almost circumspect I think. Cost cutting started already - have you forgotten the size of our cars.

Got a great pic of you and the boys in you gaff - thanks again for the hospitality, the crack and the camaraderie. BTW - I was in tears too when PE went up.

Porge

Dude - thought more about JB's offer? Stay away from the light.



....the key to success is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it made.

[bluetail]

Didntdoit

Send me a copy of the pic and I,ll get it on the WEB SITE (engineers that is). There are some blinders to go on already , one more will be great

Send me a personal from here and I,ll pick it up at work. and i,ll pass on the URL for the site if you dont know it.

As for vehicles, No Jags, VOLVO,s due to lack of Corporate etc , but we had plenty of military, times are a changing, has the slippery slope got steeper.

One final thing, I was talking with the crew from Ice Station Kilo, although they enjoyed the show, they heard lots of bitching and such...............

Old age and experience beats youth and exhuberance EVERY time

[Didntdoit]

Bluetail

I (think I) just sent you an e-mail. Failing that, will try again tonite (or you could send me a PM).

As regards the crews beaching, there are always many, although this year was up (and in a lot of cases, fair).

We got the water and beer sorted though!!

[Porge]

Didn'tdoit

To be honest, I had forgotten the conversation I had with JB, along with most other things after 2300 hrs that night!! I'll see if it ever comes up again before I worry about it, I think that the Powers may have their own thoughts anyway

Delighted to hear about the Spirit award. If you are in touch with PE pass on my best and that I was sorry to miss him getting the award. As for PLs trousers, you should have had to live with him in a Mess

The only light I am trying to find right now is the one at the end of the tunnel out of here!!!!!!

The Porge

[bluetail]

I,ve seen some attendance numbers published in one of the latest Aviation Mags for the show.

SATURDAY 70K
SUNDAY 80K

That makes a total of 150K over the weekend, now that's really going to hurt because I reckon (as did the mag) that is a good 40/50% down in numbers.

I must admit though there seemed a much larger crowd on the Sunday, but who am I to comment. The mag commented that even though it was a pretty good show, and all previous traffic and access problems appeared solved they thought the security issues from 2002 was the big crippler, and not the British GP and Open Golf, bearing in mind the British GP has been held on the same weekend many times in the past and to a certain extent so has the golf.

I await Paul & Tims regular Press releases with interest.

[Regie Mental]

Having monitored and contributed to this thread over the past few weeks I take the following view:

1 Is RIAT a good day out? Yes

2 Is it expensive? The entrance fee is not in my view but the sundry other items are. The key is to take your own tucker, don't buy a programme and don't go on a photobus (which gave a poor return this year).

3 Value for money? Yes

4 Was this year the best? No way, but that's testament to the great shows in the past and everything looks good in hindsight anyways.

5 Do the volunteers do a good job? Yep

6 Do they give a surprisingly small contribution to the RAFBE? Yep

7 Will I miss it if it's gone? Absolutely

8 Can it be improved? Yes, but that's easy for me to say.

9 Will I go next year? Yep

10 What one thing would I change? To have some transparency from the RIAT organisers about why the charity donation is so small.

Reg (who is known to others)

:8

[The Swinging Monkey]

Reggie, my dear chap,

1 Is RIAT a good day out? Yes, I would agree (provided you have never been another airshow in to world)

2 Is it expensive? Yes it is very expensive. Face it, £30+ per head, cost of food etc - yes, it's damned expensive

3 Value for money? marginal for the first timer

4 Was this year the best? absolutely not, and compared to past IATs, it was pi$$ poor!

5 Do the volunteers do a good job? Some do a great job, others - not so sure. I asked about lack of toilets and rubbish bins - reply, don't ask me mate, I'm movements!

6 Do they give a surprisingly small contribution to the RAFBE? Absolutely! They give a pathetic amount to the Ben Fund. Why? too many freebies maybe eh?

7 Will I miss it if it's gone? Yes, you and me too, but for different reasons I think

8 Can it be improved? Without a doubt. Take a look at Waddo

9 Will I go next year? Not a hope!

10 What one thing would I change? Get rid of ALL the freebies for everyone - from the cadets at the bottom, to the airships at the top. Give ALL the money to the Ben fund.

Numbers this year, well I was at both days and I didn't think there were as many on the Sunday as there was on the saturday - sorry.

Fairford is now a victim of its own success. It is too big, there are too many 'hangers on' too many airships being paid vast amounts of money for doing very little. It is time to clear out the dead wood and start from scratch quite frankly.

I know my tone is severe and will not go down well with many, but lets face facts; millions and millions of pounds pass thru RIAT, and very little ends up in the Ben fund. Why is that??
Come on RIAT, publish the facts for us. How much is the wages bill for a 2-day airshow at Fairford these days?? mmm, don't expect we will get a reply some how.

Sorry chaps, Fairford has almost become another of Britains 'Rip Offs'

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, fetch me a tin hat, I fear some $hit is on it's way!'

[bluetail]

Is RIAT a good day out? Yes (but really hard on the old pins)

2 Is it expensive? The entrance fee is not in my view but the sundry other items are. (Completely agree, the food and drinks stalls are an absolute rip off) Mildenhall (sadly missed) should be used as an example, they insisted on astandard relatively cheap price across the board

3 Value for money? Yes, its got to be, 10 hours of flying, no where beats that, I dont know what it costs to get into Siverstone but I bet its close to 3 figures if you want to get near the action. (not the case at RIAT)

4 Was this year the best? No way (BUT NOT FAR OFF), but that's testament to the great shows in the past and everything looks good in hindsight anyways, again I agree, but RIAT does suffer from late cancellations quite badly.

5 Do the volunteers do a good job? Yep, (AGREED, I,m one)

6 Do they give a surprisingly small contribution to the RAFBE? Yep ( BUT DO WE EVER SEE THE TRUE FIGURES)

7 Will I miss it if it's gone? Absolutely, (AGREED)

8 Can it be improved? Yes, (IT NEEDS TO REFLECT ON THE EARLY YEARS, AND REDUCE THE HANGERS ON AT THE VERY TOP, there,s far to many but RIAT probably need them to smooth out the problems).

9 Will I go next year? Yep, (20TH NEXT YEAR ALREADY BOOKED THE TIME OFF)

10 What one thing would I change? (REDUCE THE SO CALLED MANAGERS LIST..HAVE A LOOK IN THE PROGRAMME AT THE STAFF LIST, THEN LOOK IN THE RIAT HANDBOOK, THE LIST IS DOUBLED) DO THEY REALLY NEED A "VIP BBQ MANAGER"

REMEMBER IT IS AN AIRSHOW...SO THE AIRCRAFT SHOULD BE THE STARS....SOMETIMES I THINK AIRCRAFT ARE THE "EVIL NECESSITY"

AS FOR THE WADDINGTON SHOW, I DONT AGREE, I,ve been as both punter and crew, they get pretty good aircraft but its not as profesionally produced as RIAT everything is son cramped, VFM is probably better but back room support is crap, so much so my skipper once sent a really nasty bitch to the Staysh.

And if you want a rip-off go to ALTON TOWERS, no way is RIAT a rip off

BLUE TAIL...WHO IS ALSO KNOWN (AND HAS UPSET MANY )

[AlanM]

"VIP BBQ Manager"

There is a VIP BBQ
Someone needs to manage it!

What's in a title anyway? You could call him VIP BBQ Director and he will still be a volunteer earning nowt!

[SPIT]

Hi
I have been to WADDO & the RIAT and perhaps if Messrs Bowen and Co visited Waddo to see how they do it (and make a very nice profit for the RAFBF) they might get back a lot of the missing people??:{ :{

[Jobza Guddun]

Personally I think the USAF did a great deal of damage to RIAT by insisting on ridiculously OTT security measures last year. Individually searching every punter caused enormous waiting times, and you can't blame families who queued for 3-4 hours in baking heat, then got ripped off for drinks and food, for giving the event two fingers this year. This years security seemed to have a more thoughtful and flexible approach to it, but did things appear better simply because of the smaller attendance?

As an Eng Team member for a long time now, I've felt for some years that RIAT (except at Cottesmore) has become too big for its proverbial footwear, seemingly complacent regarding its "No 1 Airshow" status, but also by seeming to give off a vibe that they are more interested in giving high-powered executive types a good hoot, rather than providing VFM to their lesser-earning customers. From what I heard service for arriving crews wasn't that great - these are the people they rely on to come back the most!!!

All-in-all, we need to get the quality back to where we were in the mid-90's. RIAT leadership needs to get its finger out sharpish if it wants to drag the missing punters back. Otherwise it'll be permanently replaced by Waddington as the UK's premier airshow; more importantly, the Ben Fund loses out. So cut down the corporate crap and get back to the old IAT ethos of pleasing the punter and the people who crew the attractions.

[Jordan D]

Truth of it is, for someone like me who was there for his first air show, it was great ... all I need to do is come back next year, and you start getting returning visitors... this is the market that needs to be tapped to ensure that numbers stay high, as returning visitors tend to bring new people with them.

Jordan

[DamienB]

I see on another forum that RIAT made a substantial loss this year. Does this mean the total donation to the RAFBF for this year will be zero, and for our 30 quid + entrance fee a grand total of 0 pence went to charity?

[Didntdoit]

DB - out of intereest, what other forum?

[DamienB]

Warplane.co.uk - you have to register to read it I'm afraid.

[foxxhunter]

Ok, let's have a laugh ...

What are your best guesses on the salary of one of the aformentioned RIAT Directors ???

Without being too personal (!?).

(As a starter, I'd give you that two of the other major airshows' organisers both earn well under £50k pa) ...

Start your guessing now!

[smartman]

Will the coming of t'Morrow help sort things??