Spanish ATC

[bundybear]

Does this sound familiar?
First to the holding point, 24R, PMI, slot pending.
Imagine my suprise when an A320, with an orange and yellow tail, taxi's around us and departs!
Then even more strangely, TWO DHC-8' (same colour tails ) appear from somewhere and go. We then line up and wait for the DHC's to clear, now at slot plus 12 minutes.

Is it only me who finds this frustrating.

A level playing field?:confused:

[Eff Oh]

Yeah I had a similar incident with the Lisbon controllers going into Funchal. At about FL300 slowed us to min speed then brought in a Portugese B737 from 40 miles BEHIND us. He landed in front of us. It is very frustrating.

[Avman]

Gentlemen,

Just as you get on your high horses when non-pilots speculate about pilot matters, let me ask you not to do the same re ATC. Not having the FACTS at hand I can't comment on your particular cases. However, I can tell you that I often see BA and BD a/c apparently jumping the queue at LHR, LH at FRA, KLM at AMS etc etc!!! It has absolutely NOTHING to do with favouritism. You need to be aware of the many factors that dictate departure and arrival sequences.

Don't get paranoid boys!

[Scallywag]

Avman, try coming to the Canaries and see how many times you have to bring a jet back to 220Kts whilst still well above 10,000ft or take major heading changes to let the Binter ATR get in ahead. I have often, politely, asked the question why, when we could have continued at normal speed and landed and cleared the runway before he even crawls in to finals and never received a sensible answer. I'm afraid the previous posters are right, it IS often simply a case of blatant nationalism for arrivals and departures, the Spanish being the worst offenders in Europe.

[Anchorman]

The Spanish can be accused of favoritism sometimes, but not always, and it does vary with the location.

Two weeks ago,on one of the busiest days in the year for Ibiza I flew Palma to Ibiza twice there and back dropping friends off, and on the first approach I was vectored to a 5 mile final for R24 for practice on the ILS, and found two Iberia airbuses, a TUI and a condor at the holding point.

I was in an flying club Archer, and the tower as normal were very friendly, and we were communicating in english rather than spanish which I use at Palma to oil the cogs a bit. If you rush them in quick english and fail to be super friendly, ten yes, they have been known to bump foreign tails little. Hardly what you want to hear after the long hours you guys do, but at PMI especially they like it slow and friendly.

I imagine, though, the Spanish tails might be feeling the same outside their own airspace.

:hmm:

[unwiseowl]

AVMAN - You have no idea how bad the Spanish are for blatently giving priority to Iberia. I reckon Malaga is the worst place for it.

[John Boeman]

Avman, I am afraid in this instance you are so far off the mark it’s not funny!

I’ll be a bit more specific about my complaints rather than including all of Spanish ATC. Possibly I have been into the following places more often than a lot of other Spanish destinations but, let’s get this on record. For years now, the standard of ATC displayed, at very regular intervals, at the following airports, is an absolute embarrassment to your profession. I include the approach control for LPA, TFS, PMI, IBZ, AGP and GRO.

Approaching each of these airports I have on many occasions been the recipient of the instruction to reduce speed from as far away as 70 miles on one occasion (from 320 kts to 270, 250 and finally 220 while still 30 miles from the airport), in order to allow some little Binter turboprop to get on the ground in front of our 767. As Scallywag intimated, in almost every case, if we had been allowed to follow our normal profile of approach we would not only have landed without hindering said Binter, we would have been parked and offloading our passengers before he reached short finals.

This is not an exaggeration. It has to be seen to be believed I know, but it is seen every single day by every foreign operator into these, and possibly other Spanish, airports. As I said, these guys are a total embarrassment to the ATC profession, plain and simple. Some of the controlling I have seen by them would simply not be believed by people such as yourself Avman.

To the west I have landed at LAS and to the east at AKL and numerous places in between. I have never, ever come across controlling even remotely as blatantly nationalistic as seen in the environs of the above airports. The cost in wasted fuel alone must be incredible. One thing that has to be said though, is that the pilots of said turboprops are usually just as culpable and as big an embarrassment to our profession!

BTW Anchorman, sorry but you really do not know what we are talking about. Getting bypassed or held on taxi is the very least of the problems these comedians give us.

Has anybody got any ideas about how to get this to change?

[Avman]

If it's as blatant and frequent as you suggest, it shouldn't be too difficult to prove. Ask your IFALPA representatives to raise the matter with IFATCA.

[Four Seven Eleven]

Without wanting to comment on the specifics of any of the cases mentioned, some factors need to be considered:
[list=1]
Your position inn the sequence is dependant on more than just the one aircraft immediately preceding you.
Departure order is dependant on more than just who is ready and at the holding point first.
At any location, there is a better than even chance that you will be following an aircraft belonging to the local/national carrier.
The easiest way for ATC to sequence traffic is to follow the 'natural' sequence. Anything else is just too much work.
Formal complaints may achieve results. A carton of beer is quicker and more effective.;) :p :D
[/list=1]

[priscilla]

I already heard that kind of remarks about Spain, but I've never had the chance to ask a spanish ATC about that.
I just want to say that we (ATC) sometimes consider the company nationality to work. But nothing to do with discrimination!!!
For exemple I presume that an Air Algerie or Europ airpost pilot will keep max speed to the final while a BA pilot will reduce to 180kts 30 miles north of the airport ! :-) . I know quite surely the kind of visual approach an Air France Pilot will perform..and so on...
Considering that , we sometimes make a difference regarding nationality, and it could be misunderstood by pilots....

[Hand Solo]

If you think Spain is bad you should try Turkey! Try going in the hold at FL220 to let 4 Turkish 737s aircraft 50 miles behind overtake you.

[PakoSpain]

To Mr. John Boeman (or have I got to call you Sir),
For your words I recomend to buy "your" own airport to use "your" 767 without pain. The speeds you state are appropiate in situations of heavy traffic in order to avoid holdings in the IAF and, therefore, save "your" fuel. After almost 30 years on the job I feel very proud of it and satisfied every time I come home after a heavy working day.

To unwiseowl,
your opinion is just like your nick, unwise.

To Eff Oh,
How did you know the portuguese was 40 nm behind you?. Unbelievable.

Avman said: " It has absolutely NOTHING to do with favouritism. You need to be aware of the many factors that dictate departure and arrival sequences". Agree 100%, and the controllers is the only one who knows and manage these factors.

Four Seven Eleven's 5 points are very accurate, especially nº5.

Fortunately not every opinion on spanish ATC is negative (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93111).

Enjoy the summer wherever you are.
Regards
Pako

[dicksynormous]

priscilla,
can you direct me to the appropiate icao document that allows for sequencing based on a continental tendency to fly split arsed approaches with hundreds of people in the back who are expecting the safest option , ie conservative handling in normal operations.Its a tendency that starts in belgium and get worse the deeper into eurasia you get.i like to fly visuals but not under pressure, and ther is a time and a place to practice what should be a motor skill.what a shame we all have to share the same licence now.

as an aside
following two pests were not given priority.
a recent incident at kos where a german ac arrived out of the blue demanding to change the sequence (he was no 4) as he was on final and promised by athens, was given short shrift by the controller . the pilot then got up early the next week and got his towel on the runway first. not sure if the same would have happened for olympic.hmmm.

also a (uk) eac 737 operating domestics to mahon is just a big a pain with his constant demands for straight in, visual,whats the other aircraft position? etc etc ad nauseam despite an audible queue of (already sequenced )inbounds of the same tribe. he wasted his time as the spanish controller gave him short shrift as well and we got an attack of drag.


looking forward to the usual abuse from the pprune followers.


p.s i know kos isnt i spain its in france

[John Boeman]

Pakospain, you don’t have to call me Sir or Mr.

I am really happy for you that you are so proud of your job and satisfied with your performance every day after work. So presumably you are not one of those guilty of the deeds I speak of. On the other hand it could be that you see nothing wrong in anything I described because you think it is normal and is the way things are handled in every country. I can assure you it is not (although Hand Solo has found someone similar in Turkey, I have to say it has not been my experience there).

You are correct that the speeds I mentioned are appropriate in situations of heavy traffic. They are damn well not appropriate to position one Air Nostrum Fokker in front of a 767. On the day in question (it was in fact Air Nostrum on that particular day and not a Binter), after following those speed instructions, we were directed overhead the airfield when our original route would have given us a 40 degree turn on to finals. As we approached the overhead (having listened to a lot of chatter in Spanish) there was our traffic, 1000’ below and heading downwind for the runway we could have landed on minutes earlier. THERE WAS NO OTHER TRAFFIC. Is that quite clear?? None of the situations I described were in heavy traffic. If they were I would not have a problem.

And could you leave out the childish nonsense about “my” 767.

[BOAC]

Not just Spain/France/Turkey - I've been vectored 90 deg off course inbound Scandi for Nationals 30 miles behind!

A few years ago, with a valid EuroC slot ex MAD, waiting for start with slot 'cancelled' by MAD ATC due to 'airfield restrictions'. Fortunately our ground eng spoke Spanish and had a feed from delivery, and only 1 in 10 non-Spanish a/c were getting start clearance (some on our route). I was the only BA a/c (out of 4 delayed) there with HF. Also as luck would have it, a phone patch went STRAIGHT to the BA ATC liaison man who just happened to be in Flow Control at Maastricht and the MAD SATCO had a right earful from Eurocontrol.

UK ATC plays it ABSOLUTELY straight, as does UK with all things Euro, unlike some! Wouldn't it be ?'fun'? to have, say, a week, where London plays the game differently - and see how it feels both professionally and commercially? Anyone up for it?

[Eff Oh]

PAKOSPAIN
It was a thing called TCAS! On some B757s (and I'm sure other types) you can look behind you too. Still so unbeleaveable? :hmm:

[crackerjack]

I guess you haven't flown in Spanish airspace often then RTO?

I would cheerfully endorse all of the previous negative comments regarding the pi$$ poor nature of ATC in Spain. Parochial, stroppy and unhelpfull are the words that I would use to describe them. This is of course a generalisation, there are some good guys/girls out there - the approach controller at MAH the other week who had the outragous idea to let a 330kt 767 ahead of a 230kt turboprop who was 5 miles behind..... and for his trouble got a five minute harangue from senor turboprop.

Hopeless. 'kin hopeless.

[eastern wiseguy]

BOAC When you write if London were to ignore the rules for a bit etc etc ...Wouldn't that be fun....:ok: I will take it as all UK and just remind you that not so long ago at my unit we recieved a missive on the effect that "slotbusting " had on our colleagues(overloads....straw that breaks the camels back) and that to do so would be deemed a diciplinary offence.The chances of me slotbusting are akin to satan travelling to work on a snowplough.Likewise the idea that I as an approach controller would endeavour to engineer a thirty mile catch up and overtake is equally ludicrous(the sectors must be HUGE in Spain).This job has enough hassle in it without you lot controlling on Tcas




Edited to say I am speaking ONLY about my bit of the UK

[BOAC]

eastern - me suggest that?:eek:

Anyway, it would not be 'slotbusting' - I should have made it clearer - I was talking about 'sequencing' the inbounds. 'Fiddling' with t/off slots is certainly a n-no and I do NOT suggest THAT.

Is it a 'disciplinary' to put a UK 40 miles behind (and at a higher level) an Iberia inbound via BARLU ahead by 'sequencing'? Just a week...................:D

[Gonzo]

BOAC, just not cricket old chap!

Whenever Midland crews come up to the tower, they always lightheartedly complain about having to 'give way to the BA', and whenever BA crews come up they do the same about 'give way to the Midland'.......we take that as evidence we are doing something right! :D

[Avman]

NUMBER 2361 IN AVMAN’S “THE GOOD OLD DAYS” SERIES

Many many years ago, when life was just a little less hectic than now, whenever possible we would go out of our way to arrange a shortcut from KOK direct to the approach fix at BSL for a well known Swiss operator. Although it did require some considerable coordination we did this because they were the only carrier flying that particular route through our airspace and so it only needed to be done a few times per day. On one occasion as the aircraft was being transferred to Reims and the crew thanked us for the direct route, one of our guys jokingly replied, “don’t forget to send the chocolates”. They duly arrived a few days later! As time went by it became known as the chocolate route and we would clear them as such, “XXX123 climb flight level two niner zero, chocolate route approved”. For many years we were treated to a regular supply of the finest Swiss chocolates. Ah, the good old days.
:ok:

[BOAC]

A bit like 'chug-a-lug'!:D

[Avman]

Ah the chug-a-lug days.........brings tears to my eyes :{ ;)

[Jerricho]

BOAC makes an intersting point. I always (as a joke) put up the cry of "QANTAS number 1" when it comes in when I'm on. And I am alway treated with the appropriate response (which can't be mentioned in this PG time slot!)

But I would like to see at Heathrow the guys try and sequence Blighty carriers ahead of ANYBODY else on a regular basis. Our wake vortex order on final often is the major determining factor of the sequence, and this may mean bringing stuff off the holds a little ahead of others already there, but it usually is only by 1 minute or two. And I always give and explanation.

[otrex]

I totally agree with BOAC. We would have no problems at all if the british carriers were treated better than anybody else back home. But the fact is that everyone is equal in uk atc (more or less) .
I want to ask a simple question. No need to refer to speeds and headings and number in sequence. HAS ANY OF YOU NON SPANISH PILOTS EVER LANDED ON 24R IN PALMA??? unless 24L was closed.
I have done once , flying subcharter for a spanish carrier!!!
24R is meant to be a take off runway. Still, for the spanish aircraft to avoid speed restrictions and funny headings , 24R is always there for them!
Last note. I don't know about Spain but in Greece i know for sure that air traffic controllers and their families enjoyed in the past HUGE discounts on olympic flights . Is that the case in Spain as well? I can understand the air traffic controllers attitude against their local airlines with that in mind , wouldn't you all?

[priscilla]

Dicksynormous,
I work in Marseille field and we don't have so much traffic and always have good weather...We (ATC) are not allowed to propose a visual approach to pilots, they have to ask for it......
standard approaches are made for bad weather conditions and I don't think it's nonsense to perform a visual approach in good conditions...it is sometimes more difficult for ATC because they don't know the kind of circuit the aircraft is going to perform, but , as I said before, you can have an idea of it (depends on the company :-) )

[Anchorman]

Re use of 24R, Air Berlin, KLM, European, Easjet, Luftha, BM have used 24R regularly, esp late in the day to go straight to park off stand at R6,7,ad 8.

Air berlin now have year round hub from PMI and seem to get whichever they ask for, but yes it is mostly ESP carriers, especially from shortcutting vectors via NW entry to a short approach onto 24R. I've come in on a Spanair MD83 so tight onto finals I could have sworn we used a slip to get it onto the glideslope.

[unwiseowl]

"I could have sworn we used a slip to get it onto the glideslope"

How does that work then?

[Anchorman]

unwise owl

It wasn't that well worded so excuse me. We came in from Valldamossa, which lies north of the airport over the mountains, and ended up making a late sharp turn onto finals, certainly high on the glideslope. My memory is a reasonably lowbank turn but high side loading to the inside (stb side), and I assumed he was slipping in the turn to loose the excess height. I'm not sure how likely that was to be in an aircraft of the size, but the g-loading pointed that way. The reason I mentioned it was that there was a late change to 24R from 24L at the request of the skipper, which was in relation to another gentlemans post above.

[JJflyer]

Just flew to Malaga about 4 hours ago. Controllers where not only spoke good english but did a good job. As far as it comes to me I cant say that I would have had any problems with Spanish ATC worthwhile mentioning (yet). Other than being kept high up for AGP ILS 14.

Still, After having lived in Spain for close to 4 years (On and Off) I find Spanish remarkably reluctant to accept any critique about anything they do. Spanish just do not do any mistakes or do anything wrong. If you bring things up, like the ATC issue, you step on their toes and they get offended.

Worst ATC I have experienced has been Luanda. It is hard to tell if it is just the equipment they have or their attitude as well. On numerous occasions during holidays and weekends they are "Unavailable" on HF or VHF.Presumably busy being "Entertained".

[ADFS]

Come on Guys/Girls.
Stop putting down Spanish ATC for a practice that is apllied throughout Europe...
We are frequently allowed 24R because it gets us to our gate in the shortest time ( PMI )
If we parked habitually on the Southside of PMI then hunky-dory,but we don´t, and I also have to say that many times we are NOT ALLOWED 24R, so there you have it.
I find the disqualifying comments anything but helpful. I have many professional ATC friends that are as sharp as anyone elsewhere around Europe, so cool off!
Yes, Mahon has it´s off days but TAKE IT EASY

Signed: Fail to Plan, Plan to Fail

[maxy101]

Well, my 2 cents worth; Spanish ATC is merely a reflection of Spanish society , where it is seen as "cool" or "clever" to get one over on your neighbour or any kind of authority. They do it to each other and to the "giuris" . I don´t think it is deliberate. They believe that every other countries ATC is doing the same to them. Hence the widespread EU frauds re: fishing quotas, farm quotas,structural funds.

[janpieter]

Take my advice :

Ask your start up clearance with "boanas dias", and you will by-pass all the Air Berlin's and TUI's

[DBate]

Saturday morning in MAD. We received takeoff clearance 2 minutes prior to the start of our CTOT, passing 1 Iberia and an Spanair holding short of 36L.

:-)

[John Boeman]

You couldn’t make it up!

Just the other evening in an almost identical situation to MachineMan at LPA, except that there was no one ahead of us and we were cleared to 3000’ on a fairly wide downwind (just over 6 miles). As ADFS would probably say, I failed to plan ahead and had configured to flap 5 as we reached 6 miles downwind, stupidly expecting to be turned onto base any moment.

Just as we were about to ask for a turn in, the controller asked our speed? He was told 165 kts (and as I was thinking to myself that the turn must definitely come now, as he realises we are set up for base, I realised that the “dreaded” extended exchange in Spanish was taking place. Just as I said to my colleague “I don’t believe it – they are going to do it again,” our next instruction arrived. “Expect a turn in 5 miles.”

As we continued heading away from the airfield – there it was on TCAS, approx 5 miles behind, initially 1000’ above us shortly before starting it’s turn onto finals. (Ooops there I go again “playing ATCO with my TCAS”).

We finally received a turn towards the localiser about 12 miles out. I had glanced at our fuel when we were abeam the threshold and from the difference after we had landed, I would conservatively estimate we burned well in excess of an extra 600kgs to allow that Air Europa 737 get in ahead of us. (Obviously my fault because I should have planned to get dicked about and stayed in clean config.)

A couple of observations here:
It is easy to see that controllers from other countries, particularly the UK simply cannot comprehend, that what a few of us are bothering to describe here, could possibly happen anywhere. It is beyond belief to think of anything remotely similar happening at any UK airport, that’s for certain. But it really does happen with monotonous regularity in Spanish airspace.

When I think back over the worst examples of this type of controlling I have observed, it is always after a more lengthy exchange than normal, between the pilot and the controller. I can only come to the conclusion alluded to by Crackerjack, that most of this is “driven” by the pilots involved, but it is the controllers that are either “caving in” to their demands or are quite happy to go along with them.

The controllers, presumably, are unaware that this way of doing things is not the norm elsewhere, but the pilots for sure, know damn well that it is not!
(Well, maybe not the Binter pilots........)

[Sobelena]

Hmmm, I wonder if it has anything to do with the great perks Spanish ATCOs receive from the Spanish independents? Not that perks on British carriers will make any difference mind you. After all, I can't see many of them wanting to take a family holiday to the average UK city (especially at UK prices)!

[Mowgli]

We had "one of those days" recently; it all started with Spanish ATC giving priority to one of their turboprops. We managed to keep all the balls in the air, but it was all so unnecessary. I have to agree with those who've posted here about "some" Spanish ATC. Something similar happened to a colleague during the last week. He took the time to go and speak to the controller concerned in the tower during the turnround. The UK controllers would no doubt find it hard to believe - their standards are as required - amongst the highest.