BA staff walkout @ LHR

[stagger]

Just heard on the news ALL BA staff in Terminal 1 at Heathrow have walked out?

Anyone know what's going on?

[ojs]

Quite prepared to admit I'm wrong, but is this is the result of industrial dis-agreement over iARM (Integrated Airport Resource Management)?

For the unitiated, iARM is a project designed to (so the briefing goes) to make better use of the number of airport staff by more accurately working out how many people are needed and when. The GMB union has been particularly anti this project - in fact from what I gather it's the reason there have been no pay increases for the A (Administrative) or IM pay scales this year, as unions and management can't agree.

Whatever the outcome it's the latest in a long line of BA industrial relations fiascos. What with the airline closing cabins and wet leasing due to "social sickness" - a phenomenon I'd never even heard of until this year at BA - among crew, this is another PR disaster for BA.

And I say that with no pleasure - like many others on here, I'm BA staff and a shareholder!

[Scottie Dog]

It's true - I don't know any more details but I was talking to a passenger in the Exec lounge when an announcement was made to say that everybody had to leave the lounge and go landside or the police would be called.

I lot of very unhappy passengers.

Scottie Dog

[amanoffewwords]

Unofficial strike according to the BBC.

[Mark Lewis]

The only info I can find is that it is a unanimous, but unofficial staff walkout. No union involovement, according to the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3078911.stm

[fatboy slim]

Just heard from mate who is in T1 departures waiting for a BA flight and cannot find a single BA ground staff member on the plot. All screens say wait in lounge, no announcements - nothing.

Any info greatly appreciated...

[Bigpants]

Confirmed on the BBC news at 1724Z. All BA flights from Terminal 1 at LHR have been cancelled for this evening.

No reason supplied but I bet things are getting a little heated among the passengers.

Since this does not appear to be a security issue eg the other company's are continuing to operate from T1 and other BA flights from T4 appear to be continuing I would guess someone has upset the staff......A tug driver with a saussage perhaps?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Mark Lewis]

According to the news on the radio it is focused on a new scheme where staff have to "Swipe in" to access the terminal.

[Max Angle]

Excellent, hope we have some spare seats available at bmi to take all those high price biz. class pax.

[Seloco]

If this extraordinary news is true, and the BBC website seems to be confirming it, then BA has, at one stroke, lost any right to be considered a credible airline, yet alone its self-styled "world's favourite". What an unbelievable load of prats to allow a situation to arise that ends up treating fare-paying passengers in such an unacceptable way. How ashamed I feel to be associated in any way with such an organisation.

[Jack The Lad]

Seloco

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, your target needs to be refocused in the direction of the 'culprits' who work for BA rather than the airline itself; its not the airline but the employees that have done their employer and its customers a major dis-service. I'm sure the airline is even more pissed off than you are. Talk about 'biting the hand' that feeds you??

Anyone with even just 'half an ounce' of common sense would realise that current times in aviation are very difficult for all to compete. Everyone's job is dependant upon their airline making important, strategic and very necessary cost savings; none more so than at BA which for years had the luxury of wallowing in their blissful money squandering. Its a differnet world out there now; dog eat dog. The end result is that these people will have lost their employer valuable customers, which in turn, puts their jobs at risk. Stoopid or what??

[ojs]

JTL, I couldn't agree with you more: I think this action by T1 staff will only strengthen BA's resolve to implement iARM. There are plenty of Aviance's and ServisAirs (or whatever their LHR equivalents are) ready to take over the job at a moment's notice.

And if the iARM conditions are so restrictive, why hasn't T4 been affected? Different Union, different style?..

BA may be a bit obsessed about swiping in and out (qv the EWS wranglings at the mo), but with Q1 figures due out July 31 and expected to be poor, all the profits from the Concorde competition have been (more than?) wiped out by today's action and will indubitably have done more harm than good to the union's (and unions') cause.

[A300Man]

Yeah it's true. I am here now and I have never seen LHR T1 so chaotic.

Inbound and outbound cancellations and diversions abound. Hotels around LHR now filling up.

Assume that STN, LGW, BOH, LTN, MAN and even BHX will be chokka tonight.

[Avman]

Yes JTL but isn't it always the front line troops that have to tighten their belts and become more cost efficient whilst the fat cats remain grossly incompetent and get fatter!

[Skylion]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the dispute, for BA staff to walk out and leave the customers to fend for themselves is an act of unforgiveable self indulgence, not to mention self destruction. It is only days since the annual summer coincidence of high sickness rates with well known sporting events was raised at their AGM,- and it is a problem which has occured for years. Who suffers?- the customers, the balance sheet and everyones long term job security.

[soddim]

Screwing the weekend travelling plans of the few air travellers left for the survival of the industry is a very destructive protest. There has to be a more sensible way to do business.

[limpbiscuits]

Is anyone aware of which airports BA flights have diverted to ??

I think a few have gone into LTN, and a friend in MAN said one of their shuttles returned to MAN.... bit messy for all concerned....

Still..... summer wouldnt be summer without a bit of chaos....

HOORAH...... Bring it on !!!;)

[ILS27LEFT]

From the previous message:

"Yes JTL but isn't it always the front line troops that have to tighten their belts and become more cost efficient whilst the fat cats remain grossly incompetent and get fatter!"

I think that all the front line staff at LHR, not only BA staff, have been abused and overstretched by the Management for too many years, working in very difficult conditions and under high levels of stress.
Working on the ground at such a busy airport has never been easy and I think that this "walkout" could be the first "spark" of a series of further actions by other employees working on the ground: not only BA. Majority of ground agents at LHR are totally fed up with their working conditions!
Is anybody enough brave to statistically assess this feeling among its own staff in a professional and independent manner?
I doubt.
Management should open a fair dialogue with all staff before introducing any major change to basic working conditions, and I do think this has NOT been done in too many cases.

I do not know this specific case so I might be wrong, but I have heard so many stories of bad management on the ground that I would not be surprised at all if this is another case of tightening the belt of the weakest ring of a large corporation, when this same ring is the one that should be motivated and rewarded before anybody else in the same company.

Does the Management know that these people cannot go home at the end of their shift if a flight is delayed, or I have heard of staff working 12 hours without a break and so on: this is reality, and this reality is kicking back with a vengeance. I might be wrong but I do not think staff would have taken such a drastic action just to have a day off: this is a serious issue and it needs to be sorted before it will be well too late for all.

Nothing against BA, this is a general ground staff problem at LHR.

The future is probably a cheap and inefficient ground handling agent for all carriers. This is what low fares are delivering.

Good luck boys and girls.

[LGS6753]

Seems like BA staff have forgotten they now live in the real world.
So far 9 diversions into LTN (A319/320s).
Good news for London's Third/Fourth Airport at last!!

[Stan Sted]

Latest news report says 61 outbound flights and 28 inbounds were cancelled. A total of 10,500 pax affected.

[Jack The Lad]

Forgive me; I'm a mere individual employed in the aviation sector! I don't claim to know all the answers, but what I will tell you is that I have many years experience in this sector.


In response;

1. I sympathise with ILS27Left in that EVEREYONE has to retighten their belts....I think Rod is doing that...should have been done many years ago, but remember the 'prat' that was running the airline at the time? The guy that financed the 'Big Eye'? I understand that is a commercial success; good for him. Maybe that will offset the costs of the disastrous repaint jobs on the tails! Botom line is that I believe Rod is addressing the problem between the workers and the 'fat cats', himself included.

2. 'Working in difficult conditions and under high levels of stress' - forgive me, but pilots are not a unique proffesion here. I can name you many other jobs that are more 'stressful' than flying an airplane from A to B. Try a week at a stock exchange and tell me what is more stressful. Don't tell me how stressful an engine loss would be; how many times have you suffered that?

3. 'Does the management know that these people cannot go home at the end of their shift if a flight is delayed?' Why should they??????? There are fairly strict guidlines on how long anyone can work. That is in their contract and frankly, most pilots can expect and are expected to work much longer duty periods. If you can't stand the heat, get out the kitchen! You signed a contract, but having accepted it, want to change the terms?...not a leg to stand on. Why am I so vocal on the subject? I run my own business and work seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. No one deserves a living...you earn it!

Many will disagree, but thats my view

[Seloco]

Jack the Lad:

I was deliberately being non-specific about the "target" for my post. What is both unforgiveable and desperately sad is a management environment that has allowed a situation to develop whereby customer-facing staff at an airline can wilfully abandon a terminal full of passengers at a moment's notice - an act which has simultaneously ruined the plans of thousands of passengers' and their families, as well as hugely adding to the workload of those many selfless others around the country who are being left to sort out the resulting chaos.

I fear my epithet of "prats" may apply equally to management and staff in this sordid mess - to anyone in fact who did not realise that his/her actions will do nothing but adversely affect the credibility and future of a once great airline.

In my more cynical moments I used to fear that BA's attitude remained one that considered us passengers to be mere annoyances that stopped it from running an efficient airline.

Now I know!

[STS]

Sky News is reporting that staff have walked out of T4 and industrial action is also happening at BHX and MAN. Does anyone know if this true? Don't believe everything you read in the papers and all that...

[master slug]

Trust the overpaid fat cats to upset the staff.

We are going through this at Manchester. No money to give a full service. Maximise profits, cut the staff, reduce engagement standards on a/c, Now they want us to load ATP,s with 2 staff.

An accident waiting to happen.

BA fat cats need more cream to get fatter at the cost of the workers.


so says the slug

[Hand Solo]

Jack the lad:

2. 'Working in difficult conditions and under high levels of stress' - forgive me, but pilots are not a unique proffesion here. I can name you many other jobs that are more 'stressful' than flying an airplane from A to B. Try a week at a stock exchange and tell me what is more stressful. Don't tell me how stressful an engine loss would be; how many times have you suffered that?

Er, with all due respect, what the hell are you talking about? It's not the pilots on strike, they're all working and right now are pitching in with the cabin crew to look after thousands of very angry passengers stranded all over South East England and Europe.

[Yeahbut]

The passengers have my sympathy but what's happened is inevitable. BA have been treating it's staff so badly for years.

Watch this space there may be more to come.......

[Ranger One]

I don't know or particularly care who's 'right' or 'wrong' in this dispute - employees or management - doesn't matter. It's pure lemming behaviour.

I had a call from a mate in T1 describing the chaos... walking off the job at 16:00 on a Summer Friday... and if what Scottie Dog posted is true, about pax in Exec lounge being threatened with police... absolutely the last thing our industry needs.

My wife is a senior bank executive... when she read the report, she said 'if I'd been in that exec lounge, I would walk through fire to ensure than no-one who works for me ever flew BA again'

R1

[Chris Gains]

As an ex ground staff member I can make the following comments about ground staff working conditions.
Because they work in the transport industry most of the rules covering working hours do not apply!
I frequently worked 12 hours duty with no breaks followed by 8 hours off duty and then back on duty for another 12 hours with no breaks.....This is not exceptional but normal working practice!
While I do not condone the way they have gone about this action they are some of the worst paid people in the airline industry and it's about time they stood up for themselves!:hmm:

Edited for C:mad: p spelling

[Jack The Lad]

Hand solo...maybe I didn't express myself very clearly here; for purposes of clarification, given that it is mostly pilots (I suspect) who are making their individual points here;

Even a pilot, who whinges at a 12 hour duty day (all too often on these pages), doesn't have much of an axe to grind. You take a job and bitch later? Less still, a blondie, without any specific qualification or attribute, holds an airline to ransom? I hope BA sack the lot of them. You work your nuts off maybe, go into discretion to get your passengers home and some blonde bimbo f**ks your whole company and raison d'etre?

and in doing so, your job goes down the 'swanny'? Maybe you lot think I'm radical, but only radical on the opposite side of the spectrum. My original post stands; don't blame the airline, blame the prats (and I avoided repeating that in my original post) for any job losses that will undoubtably result.

No one in this whole wide world deserves a living; you earn one!

[Jet II]

Whilst I am sorry about the inconvenience to SLF - this has been a long time brewing, ever since 9/11 management have been throwing their weight around and pushing for a fight.

The management got away with ignoring the agreed systems in place when they cut back at MAN and BHX, now they have just gone too far and attacked fortress LHR.

Skippy has ordered his minions to slash jobs and cut expenditure (sounds familiar?) so he has got the fight that he wanted.

This may be all part of Skippy's master plan - BA mangement is well known for its dirty tricks, so the staff may end up on the losing side. But at leats this time, hopefully, they will go down fighting.

[Hand Solo]

Having read the various reports on the net it appears that this is a walk out by both T1 ground staff and baggage handlers. This is very significant, particularly as the strike has been orchestrated with some degree of precision. I have a great deal of sympathy for the ground staff, they work very hard under difficult conditions for low pay and regularly stay on to help the pax when the operation runs into difficulties. The baggage handlers are a different breed. A militant bunch, they are willing to walk off the job at the drop of a hat and are usually the first to down tools and go home when the proverbial hits the fan. If my memory serves me well then this will be the third walk out by baggage handlers in the the last 12 months. My fear is that the more militant elements amongst the baggage handlers have convinced the normally dedicated ground staff to tag along with them this time and the ground staff will take the rap for it. Its been known for a long time that BA management have needed to take on the militant union leadership amongst the central area staff. I fear that this will be the justification for that move and the ground staff are about to get caught in a very messy crossfire.

[BWBriscoe]

My wife's a doctor and she quite often works 24 hour shifts. She doesn't enjoy it but it's a condition of the job and she has accepted it.

These ground staff do not deserve to have a job to come back to tomorrow morning. If I was the management I'd seriously consider getting rid of them. There are plenty of people who would take their jobs.

Praise must go to the cabin crew, pilots and management who are left to clear up the mess that has been caused by this ridiculous episode.

[Shuttleworth]

I'm with BWB - hope they get fired.
Many BA staff have simply been there too long and don't know what its like to work! A spell in the real world will open their eyes. I hope the company has a contingency plan and can bring in contractors.

[ncusack]

I wish everyone would cut the bullshi* about ....I work 26 hours a day as a Doctor, Lawyer etc when necessary and I don't complain.

Ground staff are the gearbox of an airport and work their hearts out for peanuts. I am 100% sure that no body in their ranks needs to be lectured about the possible outcomes of their actions this evening, particularly ponces outside the industry (me included in that category).

Cut them some slack and let's see what happens. We all know it will be serious but let's wait and see what unfolds before everyone gets on their high horse.........................

Ncusack

[GwynM]

As SLF who uses T1 more than anywhere else (except ABZ), my main comment is that what goes around, comes around. The BA management treat staff like sh1t, then they get treated the same way back. The SLF has been subject to cutback after cutback, first the cream teas get replaced by a sarnie in a bag, then they remove the rubish cake from the bag as well. All signs of penny pinching we see as SLF, so what the he11 are the management doing to the workers?

The groundstaff I come into contact with are professional and friendly, so the management must have pushed them too far this time. Comments at the AGM about "summer sickness" do nothing for morale, so the cr@p that will follow this episode will hit BA where it hurts most, but the ostriches will continue to bury their heads in the sand and blame everyone but themselves.

A final plea! Easyjet, please do an afternoon ABZ trip so I don't have to face T1 and BA again!

[Jet II]

My wife's a doctor and she quite often works 24 hour shifts. She doesn't enjoy it but it's a condition of the job and she has accepted it.

Well I'm sure that she is very well compensated for it.

However - 24 hour shifts are not, and never have been, a condition of employment at BA.

Should the company wish us to work 24 hours, I look forward to being paid as much as a doctor.:*

[Jack The Lad]

Jet 11

<shaking my head and banging it against a brick wall!> "ever since 9/11 management...throwing heavy weight around"??

Do you REALLY believe that on 12 September all of the airline maagement got replaced by a new breed of managers? Of course it was the managers faults concerning the terrorist attacks; maybe they rcruited AlQueda so that they could disguise their inept management. Dream on. Tell half of the American pilot force that now sit at home without a job to go to!

Wow...what is fortress LHR? a bastion of english imperialism that is sacrosanct against any financial reality? Maybe I could get a job there and be secure, in spite of any financial justification?

Skippy has orchestrated this to gain "the fight he wanted"?

"Hopefuly they will go down fighting"?

Jet 11...they appear to be very stupid....either you are more so or you are being very mischievous in enticing them to use their very limited brainpower to make their situation very much worse...either way, you should refrain.

and Jet II, with my extreme intelligence as a baggage handler, I too deserve to get paid the same rate of pay as a doctor; especially as I f**d all my exams at school and never attended class and turned down 7 years at university

Give me a break

[Shuttleworth]

Jet II – You are totally mistaken! (going off thread here) – My missus is a doctor too . She takes home £1950 pcm – for a totally shattering 72 hours a week – far less than the top third of BA cabin crew. ( who can nett over £4000 pcm). Methinks there is a slight difference in knowledge skill and responsibility too! BW Briscoe has a valid point .

GwynM – You should know - It’s a fact that “sickness” is a big problem at BA . They certainly have trouble providing the cabin crew to operate planned flights during Ascot , Henley and Wimbledon weeks. I am not aware of any poor statistics for the ground staff though – just cabin crew.

[Jet II]

Jack The Lad

You seem to have a very limited view of what actually happens inside BA - suffice to say that not all of its staff are as stupid as you seem to think, but they do have some self respect. The company offered the Engineers a 3% pay increase recently - it todays market a decent enough offer you might think - however they added on so many changes to the T&C's that this offer was rejected by 98%.

So until you are totally au fait with the ins and outs of BA's internal politics, I would ask you to reserve comment.



Shuttleworth

Try reading the thread - its the ground crew that have walked out.:rolleyes:

[GwynM]

If it's a fact that "sickness" really happens during summer "EVENTS", then surely that is a management failing in not motivating their staff.

But hey! It's easier to blame the symptom than the cause.

[Point Seven]

Guys and gals

When you've finished all of your posturing, the brass tacks are that the folks who suffer most from this episode are the folks who can do nothing about it (no, not ATC!!). THE PAX.

They really are getting the sh**ty end of the stick. After all, they are only tring to get home/away.

There are ways and means of taking industrial action, strikes are an entirely valid method of making a point to an intransigent management IMHO. However, a sneaky, co-ordinated mass walk out without union approval is NOT. The whole world is hard done to and to think that you're more hard done to than the next guy is pathetic. There are people out there without jobs, starving and being forced to do crap for f**k all.

My message to you all is, yeah, strike if you need to but, for the love of God, go the right way about it so that the travelling public can at least make arrangements to avoid the outcome.

P7

[nurjio]

ncusack - I fear that a lot of them probably do need a lecture - and therein lies the problem - leadership (on the shop floor), and its' failure to lecture those that need it on the realities of running airlines in 2003.

It's not that difficult an equation to fathom, and so, given the prevailing environment, today's action borders on the suicidal. Look through the keyhole - 9/11, followed by Gulf War II, followed by SARs, followed by the strong re-emergence of the American Flagship airlines (brought about by Chapter 11/re-structuring etc) and yet more trans-atlantic price wars = the most difficult trading regime ever for BA and a cash burn of £1million, per day, for the foreseeable future.

Mark this day as a the moment BA was delivered a mortal blow thanks to poor judgement and even poorer leadership (on the shop floor).

[bean_counter]

Anyone who does the job they're paid to do has nothing to fear from 'swiping' on & off the job. Wonder what the "fortress LHR" union bully boys have to fear ?

Like many of you I've encountered very hard working & loyal ground staff, but the few union rulers (can't bring myself to call them workers) do not have their interests at heart, only their own. They have led them straight into a situation which may cost many of them their jobs.

They've been taking the **** for years whilst LGW takes the flak, now BA has spent the last year or so working through the list of easier things to do there's nothing left but doing the hard stuff.

There's no way they can afford to back down over this, and I can't see there being any public support for this action either.

The sad thing is the people who orchestrated this are going to take many other hard workers down with them.

PS - also re earlier comment, concorde auction thingy is donating profit to charity (after marketing costs) according to the leaflet I saw.

[Globaliser]

Point Seven: When you've finished all of your posturing, the brass tacks are that the folks who suffer most from this episode are the folks who can do nothing about it (no, not ATC!!). THE PAX.

They really are getting the sh**ty end of the stick. After all, they are only tring to get home/away.

There are ways and means of taking industrial action, strikes are an entirely valid method of making a point to an intransigent management IMHO. However, a sneaky, co-ordinated mass walk out without union approval is NOT. The whole world is hard done to and to think that you're more hard done to than the next guy is pathetic. There are people out there without jobs, starving and being forced to do crap for f**k all.

My message to you all is, yeah, strike if you need to but, for the love of God, go the right way about it so that the travelling public can at least make arrangements to avoid the outcome. http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif Well said, Point Seven!

You have to ask yourself, if things are really this bad, why isn't the union taking the lead and organising a proper, legal strike that allows the innocent victims to plan around it? Never mind the complaints that staff have about the management - what complaints do they have about their union that we aren't hearing about?

[STS]

Anyone who has worked as a member of ground staff will relate to the crappy working conditions that are constantly brought up i.e. 12 hour shifts with no breaks etc. Ground staff may be on £7/hour. Now, forget the "my job is more stressful than your job" childish jibes. Overtired, underpaid, overworked staff is a safety issue, especially airside.

However, I'm not really convinced that those striking are making that their priority, and I'm not convinced that wildcat strikes are the way to go to resolve these long standing issues. As far as I know, these issues were being tackled with the GMB, so the process of ballots etc. may have happened in the future. Perhaps pax would be less frustrated if they had notice of a strike.

However, in reference to the insults thrown at these staff from some on this board. To all you PPruners who may guess who I am, please don't "out" me, but I now work in a well paid job, am a researcher at a university, and can say working with a major carrier at LHR was one of the best jobs I've ever had. It was a laugh, I learnt a lot about people, and had the privilege of working with some very smart colleagues. Smarter than many in my current environment.

Whether someone is competent in their job does not always mean they need umpteen letters after their name and years of specialist training. They need the personality and skills for that particular post. Granted, some at BA won't have these. But name me a company in the world that doesn't have personel problems?

[Hand Solo]

nurjio - just one omission in an otherwise very sensible post:

followed by the strong re-emergence of the American Flagship airlines (brought about by Chapter 11/re-structuring etc and multi-billion dollar state subsidies)

It should also be borne in mind that over the last 7 days there has been immense disgruntlement amongst the ground staff about a new security restriction on staff travel, which has led some staff to be deliberately obstructive and downright bloody-minded towards some of their colleagues using staff travel. There were mutterings about industrial action from several groups during the week, and I suspect that elements of petulance and sour grapes may have a hand to play in this dispute.

[Jet II]

nurjio

therein lies the problem - leadership (on the shop floor),

There is a very old saying - 'Management get the unions they deserve'

If the management were a teensy bit competant, you wouldn't have had this action in the first place.

[donder10]

This might just act as a catalyst for further outsourcing.Some seem to think that BA owes them a living just as BA face the biggest combination of threats in their history.

[Jack The Lad]

My final post on this sad subject;

They only "got a 3% pay rise"!!

Well, Jet II, who promised them any payrise at all? Where is it written that they will get a payrise each year? Get real dude, ask how many pilots have had a payrise at all this year? Ask how many My Travel pilots have had a payrise and whether that is their major concern? Ask Monarch pilots, who has had a pay rise? Ask anyone! These guys are happy to have a job!

Yet, the fact that the blond bimbos and other "educated" types haven't been offered a 3% rise, gives them grounds to ruin their employers business, is ok? I say again...sack the lot and recruit people that want and need a job and who might show some loyalty to those that pay their wages.

Yes, let us all be paid the salary of a brain surgeon, then we can freely give some 'grey matter' to those that need it most

[FastJet Wannabe]

Would everyone who in their posts advocates that all ground staff should be sacked, and are lazy and unintelligent, please take a moment to re-consider their words.

Although a tiny minority of ground staff do fit into that category, I assure you that the vast majority of ground staff that I work with at least are dedicated, hard working, and do everything within their power (which is often limited) to get each and every flight away on time.

We are on pitiful pay (less than £6 per hour), and we do work long hours. 24 hours is very unusual, but not unheard of in my place, however, 12-16 hour shifts are frequent.

Many of the employees where I work are either uni students on summer break, or people who have been in the industry for many years and have a wealth of experience behind them.

I am a dispatcher at STN, and had the misfortune of working this evening, for the company that handles BA diversions.

Luckily for us, we only had 4 aircraft into STN, 2 x 767's and 2 x small A320 family (didn't get as far as finding out which variant) - but the pressure that put us under was immense.

Yes passengers had to endure more than 2 hours on the aircraft, and my heart does go out to the crews (especially cabin crew) who had to deal with 300+ angry and tired pax. I am sorry for the 2 aircraft (the 2 767's I believe) that at different stages requested immediate police presence at the aircraft due to "near rioting" on board.

I promise you, we were doing our best to get you sorted out. Funnily enough, we were short staffed this evening, even before your 4 aircraft arrived, 10 minutes apart, and with 20 minutes notice!

Give a thought to the ground crews who will now offer to stay on for several hours after the end of their scheduled shift in order to help get these aircraft, and passengers, back where they should be.

[Kaptin M]

Imo, one of the prime causes of airlines having industrial problems, and eventually going down the tube, is the performance bonus paid to management.
For them to get their £x million annual supplement to their "basic award", they need to continually trim away to show an increase in the bottom line.
It is this ridiculous bonus system based on GREED, that has the (already) Fat Cats now at the stage where they can only retrench staff at the coalface, to further pad their bulging wallets.

Point Seven, it IS the passengers who can do something about the problem. Once the bottom line is affected, management will sit up and take notice - because THEY...or at least their expected bonus.....is affected.

It's past time to put an end to management "performance bonuses". Like every other staff member, pay them a set salary to do the job.
If they underperform, replace them.

And for the poster who stated that his "wife is a doctor who works 24 hour shifts", my comment to you, and she, is "How totally IRRESPONSIBLE for a person with that amount of responsibility, to do that!".
Please post her name and the place where she works - I sure as hell wouldn't want to be one of her customers/patients!!

[Jack The Lad]

Kaptin M

How crass of you!

Just hope she doesn't know your real name, so that when you are on the slab she doesn't make a wrong slip of the scalpel when you need it most!

The fact is that doctors DO work those hours, right or wrong. What would you say if THEY all walked out during your moment of need, such as in a heart attack? I think I know your answer, dude. Would you really care if the only doctor had been on duty for 24 hours? "No, sorry, my heart attack can wait till the next shift arrives in 6 hours time"! I think not!

Don't compare priorities

[PAXboy]

I can well believe that BA do not treat their staff as well as they should.
I can well believe that BA staff work like crazy.
I can well believe many of the things that have been said here.

But ... taking unannounced strike action is not clever. Not clever at all. Plan it, try and negotiate around it but to just walk out? No, they have cooked themselves in very hot oil. They will (probably) find themselves in breach of contract and other things besides. They have handed their management their heads on a plate. The management will, in all probability, be able to use this to push through other changes that they might not have been planning.

Unannounced strike action is 25 years out of date. I am astounded that an entire group of staff can be led in this way. Whatever they might have felt about their jobs and their management, this cannot be the way to handle it.

[dontdoit]

PAXBoy - yours are the most sensible and unfortunately, truest comments on this thread.

Under the most recent re-work of employment law, my understanding is that the strikers are not only in breach of contract, but every single person who walked off this evening is PERSONALLY FINANCIALLY LIABLE for any loss, material or (and here's the important bit) financial suffered by their employer as a consequence of their actions...and trust me, the employer will know to the nearest 10p how much that amount is per striker.

Maybe some of the landside brain-dead should have considered this before they downed tools...too late...looks like lots of houses are going to be for sale in the LHR area to pay the legal bills - what a bunch of misguided, easily led fools.

[timzsta]

Here here Fast Jet Wannabee. It was interesting for us at STN for a while to say the least. 767's and A320's arriving at one of our busiest times of the evening.

BA had it coming to them, and them and a few other companies better take note. No ground staff = no flights, its as simple as that. It appears the management at BA have completely misjudged the mood of their people. That is appalling management.

So the solution - sack everyone? And you suppose after this walkout there are going to be thousands of people just jumping at the bit to fill the boots of those booted out. I think not.

[HiSpeedTape]

So, Jack the F:mad: ing Lad.

Your profile shows your occupation as Pilot. How do you reconcile this?

"I run my own business and work seven days a week, 52 weeks a year"

Strikes me that you may be some kind of a liar.

HST

[Rollingthunder]

I do hesitate to wade into these things.

Assumptions:

Walkout due to implementation of time recording procedure already in place at other terminals. Not an unreasonable thing is accurate time recording. Rather a standard practice in most industries in most of the world.

Other terminal personnel did not walk out over this.

Their union(s) did not seemingly support this action.

Action in violation of current contract (a legally binding agreement between two or more parties).

There was a great deal of cost to customers.

There was a great deal of cost to employer.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the employer this was a stupid thing to do and will likely result in financial sanctions to the participants and not the union(s).

Anyone ever hear about sub-contracting out job roles for cause? Happens every day.

This was not the way to go about things.

[donder10]

Were these flights(BA83/163/109/15/9 etc) delayed as a result of the strike action in T1 or a seperate problem?

[headsethair]

What gets me in all of this - no mention of BAA.

What a week for them - first a committee of MPs callas the BAA management a bunch of liars and calls for their stranglehold on UK airports to be stopped.

Then their major airport grinds to a halt and they do nothing about it.

Why ? Because of the cosy relationship with BA. BA run the ground handling at T1.

Other airlines and other jobs have been put at risk because of this shameful act.

Did BAA step in to help ? Did they hell.

[055166k]

Much sympathy for anyone trying to fly on Monday 21st. International Air Tattoo at Fairford. 400 aircraft leave on Monday and a significant number [fighters/formations etc.] use the airway system. Always coincides with the busiest weekend of the school holiday year. It is claimed that steps are taken to minimise disruption to "ordinary traffic" but in my experience there will still be a considerable number of passenger jets stuck on the ground to make way for things with only one seat.

[Final 3 Greens]

Timstza

BA had it coming to them, and them and a few other companies better take note. No ground staff = no flights, its as simple as that. It appears the management at BA have completely misjudged the mood of their people. That is appalling management.

Sorry mate, but you don't know what you are talking about in this particular instance.

I had some involvement with the iARM programme a couple of years ago and can tell you that even that far out, there was extensive and serious consultation with ALL the affected unions at LHR and LGW. And it may surprise you to know just how many unions there are at LHR.

Hand Solo has already made some pertinent comments and as I'm 2 years out of date with BA, I shan't comment on the present - however the impact on cashflow and profitability of this action will hurt the airline badly at a difficult time.

[foghorn]

And for the poster who stated that his "wife is a doctor who works 24 hour shifts", my comment to you, and she, is "How totally IRRESPONSIBLE for a person with that amount of responsibility, to do that!".
Please post her name and the place where she works - I sure as hell wouldn't want to be one of her customers/patients!!

Hmmm I'll inform my wife about this when she arrives home in an hour after a 24 hour shift being the senior resident paediatrician in the main hospital covering a large London Borough (population 300,000). I'm sure she'll be glad to find out just how irresponsible she's been looking after all those sick children's lives.

And she has to do it all again on Sunday.

[Jet II]

Jack The Lad

who promised them any payrise at all? Where is it written that they will get a payrise each year?

Read the post - the company offered 3%.

how many pilots have had a payrise at all this year? Ask how many My Travel pilots have had a payrise and whether that is their major concern? Ask Monarch pilots, who has had a pay rise? Ask anyone!

As for Monarch and My Travel - what has that got do with the situation inside BA?

The BA pilots have already had a very nice pay rise, something that was discussed widely on this forum, so please try to stop the thread creep.

Yet, the fact that the blond bimbos and other "educated" types haven't been offered a 3% rise, gives them grounds to ruin their employers business, is ok?

Have you had the odd drink or two? - this dispute is not about pay - its about changes to agreed T&C's.

I say again...sack the lot and recruit people that want and need a job and who might show some loyalty to those that pay their wages.

Hmm, I wonder if your attitude would be the same if it were another flight crew dispute.

[Kaptin M]

As a parent who had a child in a paediatric hospital for some 9 months (due to AML - acute myeloid leukaemia), and who witnessed the suffering of many other children, foghorn, I can only say that your last post reviles me even more, to think that those children - many who have since passed on, at tender ages ranging from 12 months to 15 years - were being attended to by people who were incapable of providing clear thinking after unnecessarily long duty periods.

But then again I suppose the penalty rates they receive well outweigh the patients' considerations.

Sorry to sidetrack the main issue.

[BahrainLad]

HiSpeedTape, I suspect it's possible to be a 'pilot' without flying full time for a major carrier....a PPL holder perhaps? Admittedly, shouldn't really put it in the 'Occupation' field.....

With regards to those "intelligent" staff at BA T1, they have just unwittingly opened themselves for the biggest shafting any group has ever had.

I'm buying shares in Servisair.

[FOXIBOY]

i am not employed by ba but i have to agree with the staff ,i have been in the airline industry for 12 years and it is about time people started to make a point tha low pay and bad working conditions can no longer go on,unlike many industries we dont get paid overtime so if you do a 20 hour day you only get paid for 12 hours or working on days off you dont get them back and in many cases leave can be cancelled and you have to put up with it. As for making a living yeah you do earn a living in this industry you work your butts off. Oh by the way jtl you try laning a fully ladened 747 with upto 500 souls on board in bad weather knowing that any moment that aircraft could be slammed into tha ground killing everyone on board then you will realise what stress is coz at the end of the day we are here to save your arse not kiss it !!!!!

[G fiend]

With my experience of ground staff- people who regularly go the extra mile when the sh** hits the fan , it takes a lot to really p**s them off...and to walk out just like that!

I think that perhaps we all should wind our necks in and wait for more information before we shout our mouths off about "sackin' the lot of 'em".

I would also remind the gob**tes that we are in the 21st century- people have the right to withdraw their labour when in dispute. Industrial relations have come a long way since the Peterloo massacre- but as a previous postee has said "management gets the union they deserve". I've been lucky- my company recognised unions for the useful contribution they could give, consequently, disputes are dealt in an adult and reasonable fashion.

[BWBriscoe]

They've done it again this morning!

According to Sky News they've walked out of T4 as well!

Apparently they have also left unaccompanied minors on their own!! Now, this is completely unacceptable!

Get rid of the lot - they don't deserve to have these jobs.

Don't they know what the unions are for?

[Hand Solo]

headsethair you're back making false assumptions again:

Then their major airport grinds to a halt and they do nothing about it.

Why ? Because of the cosy relationship with BA. BA run the ground handling at T1.

Other airlines and other jobs have been put at risk because of this shameful act.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. First, LHR didn't grind to a halt, BAs T1 operation did. Second, BA don't run the ground handling at T1, we do our own handling, everyone else uses their own staff or agents. Third, no other airlines or jobs have been put at risk because the others are unaffected by a BA strike. In fact I'd say the big boost in business to the competition probably secures their jobs.

G fiend:
we are in the 21st century- people have the right to withdraw their labour when in dispute

Indeed they do, but only through legal strikes in this country, not through wildcat, unballoted actions like they could in the 20th century. As a previous poster said, they've handed the management their heads on a plate. If your company recognised unions deal with your management issues in an adult way then they're doing considerably better than the ultra-militant ground unions at BA who still believe they're living in the 70's.

[Dispatcher]

G-Fiend, very good points.

To everyone else out there with opinions on following the letter of the law with regard to striking, the whole point would have been lost if this was a planned operation. BA and its pax have been monumentally screwed by a rightly disgruntled workforce.

It is not just one or two workers who have planned this - all T1 groundstaff have joined in, their strength now is in their unity. If what is being said is true then standing up now will protect them from the kind of work schedule BA has in store. How on earth can you expect staff to come in on off days when its busy, and go home early on quiet days, taking the necessary drop in wages. This is no way to treat staff in any industry, and do not bring up 9/11, SARS and the Iraq conflict as any form of justification.

All eyes in the industry is on BA now. Swissport are trying to push through a similar scheme and they will undoubtably be watching what is happening now.

What BA are doing is standing up for themselves, showing the management what they are doing is fundamentally wrong. If this was done legally through the unions, the affect would have been less and the point not properly made. Management would then have pursued this and they would have been screwed. Even now, the outcome is not fully assured, but the staff have shown they are strong and BA need to decie whether to really pee them off more by proceeding with this dastardly plan.

Well Done BA staff. Other airline handling staff and airline ground staff are with you.

Stick together and be strong.

[Jet II]

This is how 'in touch' BA Management are with the feelings of their staff.

From Ananova

Story filed: 09:14 Saturday 19th July British Airways says there will be no further flight cancellations after an unofficial walkout left holidaymakers' plans in ruins.


Story filed: 10:17 Saturday 19th July British Airways has cancelled domestic and European services going to and from Heathrow Airport Terminal One.

Remember we have to deal with these idiots on a daily basis.

[Kaptin M]

...they've handed the management their heads on a plate.

The state of frustration on a WORLD-WIDE LEVEL, with self-serving management whose sole motivation is THEIR OWN "performance BONUS" - at the cost of ALL other staff - is being demonstrated by British Airways employees now.

Yes, we can all be replaced - and isn't THAT a grand threat/promise that so called "management" love to use.

Airlines are a "service industry" - not an ESSENTIAL service.
The fight is with the greedy, self-serving, upper level management who are destroying not only personal lives, but entire airlines to line their own nests.

The level of frustration at seeing one's long established place of employment destroyed by the GREED of just a few men/women in the upper level management ranks is not peculiar to B.A.
"Management" have become the waterlillies of airlines - multiplying at ever increasing rates, without ADDING productivity, but rather TAKING, whenever possible.

It's time to put an end to "performance bonuses" for management.
Pay them a flat salary, and like every other employee, if they underperform, SACK 'EM!!
There are plenty more with the same qualififcations standing in line, waiting for THEIR turn.

[headsethair]

Ah! Hand Solo. We meet again. Strange world isn't it? (Preposition OK at end of question.)
BA allocate the stand slots for T1 and T4. BA have meoved a load of Gatwick flights to LHR causing much congestion at both T1 and T4 - have you seen the subject on P2 about T4/T1 congestion ?
There is undoubtedly a much too cosy relationship between BA & BAA - this has been shown up by the T5 debate, the R3 debate and the Noise debate. They both act as if they are still State owned and operated.
According to the news, there were cancellations of other airlines' flights out of T1 last night - but whether this was because of a staffing issue or jammed stands, I don't know.

I am simply appalled at the way BAA just stood back and did apparently nothing. For their REAL customers - the pax.

Think of the extra profit from the franchises - 7,000 folks sleeping in the terminal last night according to the BBC.

It's a crying shame. If I am wrong about BA doing handling & baggage for other airlines at T1, then I apologise. But you have to agree that the BAA-BA relationship has a helluvalot to do with this chaotic dispute.

[ojs]

Yes, they have walked out of T4 - but it's only CDG and AMS that's affected. Perhaps this action will make management reconsider Project Iceberg moving l/h flights (JNB and NRT think) from T4 to T1?!

So this is definitely about iARM and the dispute over ATR (not the plane, but Automated Time Reporting). This is a system whereby people swipe in and out depending on their location. This info is then fed into the iARM db, and allows for more accurate manpower planning.

Remember that the unions are walking out because of their ** fears ** that they will be asked to work split shifts. They haven't even been asked to work split shifts! Nobody has said that ARE plans for split shifts!

G Fiend, I agree with your sentiments, but not your conclusions. It's clear that your own union/management relationship is good and well run. This is certainly not the case at T1. The unions there are (sorry to use the word) militant and certainly do NOT go the extra mile. The only extra miles the T1 staff went on Friday night were those between the terminal and their home!

Finally, Kaptin, sorry to ruin a good story with facts, re "fat cats" - but there were NO management bonuses this year (they kick in at 4% profitability, the company made 3.8%); there were NONE last year; and post 9/11 the senior managers took a pay-CUT.

(Now I'm not saying there aren't perhaps too many managers, but that's another story. Before you ask, I'm not one of them: I work in a role where, and out of 1 in every 3 weeks I am on 24/7 callout for no extra pay. So don't think I don't know about making sacrifices when times are hard).

BA is a company in real need of grave restructuring (the corporate debt is well over 4000000000 pounds!) and new working practices: of which ATR is just one of many. The Engineers are going to have to get used to it under the EWS project which includes an ATR element too.

I'm not saying that these ways of working should be enforced, they should be negotiated. But if you really can't negotiate any further, you set a DATE for strike action. Even French ATC'ers manage to do this! Their anger may be directed at management, but it's the pax who feel the effect, and when passengers get hurt they don't come back.

Final thought: where are you going to strike when you haven't got a job?

[A and C]

I find it most disturbing that in this day and age anyone is forced to work a 24 hour shift , the hospital management are using moral blackmail to keep your wife working these hours but if in a fatgued state she makes a mistake you wont see the management for dust as soon as the leagal stuff starts.

To a lesser extent the BA management is like this they push the workers on the front line very hard and this time they have pushed to hard and the workers have just got so p1$$ed off that they have walked out .

This shows to me just how out of touch the BA managment is with the workforce and how strong the feeling is amongst the workers on the ground.

I was in BA up to about ten years ago and I can tell you that no one walks off the job without thinking very hard about it after all they all have morgages to pay and kids to feed so it is my conclusion that the management have had there heads in the sand and have been beleaving there own PR for to long and have not been out of there offices on ayling island to see how the troops on the front line feel.

The bottom line is that this strike is due to the failure of the management to know the feelings of the staff and to deal with the problems in the usual industrial way.

[Rod Eddington]

Kaptin M

BA is an equity financed company. The management is directly appointed by the shareholders (the people who own the company) in order to maximise value and, in the current airline climate, to make sure the company doesn't go down the pan. Performance incentives to management mean that if they increase shareholder value they get rewarded for it. As long as we live in a capitalist society this will be the case.

The airline industry is not in good shape at the moment and costs need to be cut, a mature approach by the ground staff would be to accept that this is the case and realise that the cost-cutting is necessary in order to safeguard their jobs. If they feel some of the conditions to be unacceptable then they should negotiate in a mature way through their appointed union (who will be much better at it!).

Simply walking out and leaving so many customers in the lurch is irresponsible and childish and will ultimately be costly to them I am sure.


(p.s, i'm not actually rod eddington, i just admire the guy. i have absolutely no connection to BA)

[Hand Solo]

Headsethair you feel like an old friend! BA do indeed allocate a lot of the stands for T1, but by no means all. As far as I am aware the terminal controllers have not walked off the job, the only problem is that our stranded aircraft may be blocking some of the stands. I don't think the disruption to other operators will be massive. In this instance I don't think there's very much BAA could do even if they wanted do. Far be it from me to defend BAA, they simply don't have legions of check-in staff and and baggage handlers trained in BA procedures to simply step in and take over should our staff walk out. Perhaps the best they could do would be to help set up some sort of hotel help desk to accommodate stranded passengers then bill BA. I don't think I've seen the thread about T4/T1 congestion, where is it? I'd certainly be surprised if LGW flights had been sent to LHR as there'd still be nobody to handle them. In summary, whilst I'm no fan of BAA I'm not sure that they could do much to help once our ground staff decided to screw us all and walk off the job.

A and C I can assure you the baggage handlers walk off the job with alarming regularity. Third time in the last 12 months. No surprises to see their militant hand in this debacle.

[Anti-ice]

Many varied comments on here BUT for those of you who are continually bashing the ground staff - you are V wrong.

YOU CANNOT possibly comment on this unless you ARE BA frontline staff and you know what you are up against.

How would you feel if you worked for a company fulltime and they just pulled your hours out of the air ,and payed you accordingly.

They want to be able to just turn around to the staff and send them home when its quiet (so you come into work for 1 hour and get sent home) one day, and then the next keep you on for up to 16 hours.

You would never know what you are getting paid.

The style of management there is totally predatory at the moment and making life very hard for many people.

[ILS27LEFT]

"Well Done BA staff. Other airline handling staff and airline ground staff are with you.

Stick together and be strong."

Working 12 hrs shift without a break and without being paid any overtime, it is simply unacceptable: this is now a normal practice among the airline industry.
Pay rates are redicolous.
The above does not apply to Cabin Crew, Pilots or Office based employees: this became the norm for ground staff only, especially front line staff.
This is not acceptable as in a front line environment is often a "continuous" emergency nowadays with delays, cancellations and so on. The "Emergency" issue as an excuse to squeeze staff cannot be applied anymore.

It is not a 12 hr shift like it would be in a "normal" office environment: if you work front line you cannot even go to the loo! You depend entirely on your Operations,second by second, minute by minute. It is crazy! Try it.

It is time to reconsider this aspect of ground staff Management, or even "officially" switch to a low cost ground service handling agent, and if this is the real management's objective, then this must be made clear, "tell them clearly" " do not play this game": ground agents are human being ( if you forgot) , people with their own lives, kids, plans, families, etc...they do have feelings and they are not just those numbers that our fat cats can view on their golden flat screens. AHHHHHHH!

Let them know what your plans are, do not play with real lives.

It was time to say: "Enough is enough!".

Well done boys and girls.
The bubble has been there for years...waiting to burst.
I have been talking to many ground staff employees and they have all said the same: working at LHR is crazy because conditions are non human.

[Hand Solo]

Anti-ice I am BA frontline staff and if I'm going to walk off the job I'll wait until management have actually proposed change, the union has balloted its members and a legal strike has been authorised. I won't walk off the job on basis of getting the first blow in just in case management try to do something in the future. I know exactly how inept BA management can be and I've normally got a lot of time for the satff working in the terminals but now they're just taking the pi55.

[Desk-pilot]

As an ex-BA back office worker/Manager who is about to start pilot training I'd like to correct the assumption that BA Management are all incompetent and ruthless. Many in the back office have a great deal of respect for what the front line do, but like any organisation there are a few bad eggs. Difficult to comment on the specifics which led to this action.

Last night I was flying back from Lisbon on the BA904 which diverted into Bournemouth. The crew did an outstanding job of looking after the passengers, some of whom were extremely agitated by the disruption. We finally reached Heathrow at 23.30 some 3-4 hours late and our arrival was greeted with a round of applause from the whole cabin for the way in which the situation was handled. It made this ex BA employee feel inordinately proud of the airline despite all the challenges it faces.

To fly to serve.

Desk-pilot

[foghorn]

Kaptin M

But then again I suppose the penalty rates they receive well outweigh the patients' considerations.

Sorry to sidetrack, but I have to clear up a huge misapprehension here - such 24 hour shifts are a part of the basic doctors' rota in many hospitals here (and elsewhere for that matter). It's not a matter of optional work taken to grab overtime payments.

[sirwa69]

I know there are other threads running but they have been hijacked by the "whose fault is it" debaters.

I would like to know what is actually happening at Heathrow.

I have three kids due to fly out of heathrow today to Bahrain.

On the BA website it is showing that BA 125 took off at 12:15
On another page it says all long haul flights out of T4 are cancelled until 6pm

I have just heard from BA bahrain that they do not know what exactly is happening and that they think that BA125 may be flying out empty.

Is there any one out there in Pprune land who knows exactly what is happening with the flights out of T4?:confused:

On On

[Shuttleworth]

Kaptin M - you are mistaken ( again) "But then again I suppose the penalty rates they receive well outweigh the patients' considerations."

Just to add to Foghorns post - my missus gets just the basic pay £1950nett - for 72 hours per week . Just five days per month free of duty!
You and many others are so sadly misguided about how utterly exhausted your doctors are when you attend A + E or other hospital specialty.
Difficult how any one can argue for the BA ground staff who have nowhere near such responsibility yet receive (nett) similar houry rates of pay!!!!This is an illegal strike - even the unions are horrified - SACK THEM .

ILS 27L.
Why no union support for this?
Why no ballot?
What do you think this will do to the pax?
What do you think this will do to customer loyalty?
What effect do you think this will have on your pension?

[Shuttleworth]

I was in the Crew report centre this morning when it was broadcast that "all long haul flights today ( Saturday)would be despatched empty". ( presumably a sensible decision - to get a/c positioned correctly and minimise long term deleterious effects of this illegal wildcat strike).
You should be aware that a huge cheer of applause went up - from cabin crew. They were excited about the possibility of flying empty!

It's saddening to see how many crew don't give a **** about the passengers . Just think of all those pax stranded - holidays ruiined- and BA's operational losses ( hotels etc). It really saddened me.

[nurjio]

So, who has any sympathy for the Wildcat BA Ground Staff?

Passengers...NO! - remember, they pay the premium wot ends up in d'pay packet and they are well p.ssed off at the moment.

Fellow BA Employees...NO! - remember, they all have had to address and implement reform to try to keep BA competitive.

Other airline workers...NO! - remember, they are just laughing at the "pathetic shambles" that is now BA (just heard that phrase used by a stranded passenger at T1) - demise of BA = more passengers for them = success.

The Government...NO! - remember, they couldn't care less. Blair's eyes are focussed a million miles from British Flagship Businesses.

Is there anyone else out there?

Come on, someone sympathise - except you Dispatcher, (your post was daft).

Furthermore, will someone sympathise?.... and then back it up with a coherent argument as to why this Wildcat action was a smart move?

[sirwa69]

Thanks Shuttleworth

Now I have just got to figure out what to do with 3 children who are stranded at Heathrow, thank god I had the foresight to give one of them a credit card :mad:

[MarkD]

Kaptin M

Pilots asked to roster extra hours beyond safe limits can go home knowing they

(a) are only inconveniencing pax, not killing them
(b) can go to a different airline where they operate safely.

Doctors, particularly juniors can go home knowing that

(a) patients will die as there is no cover
(b) conditions are the same all over the health system.

Look at the blackmail the press give out when docs threaten a strike. You don't know what you're talking about so wind your neck in. Start a JB thread if you really want to have this "discussion".

[OL200]

Nurjio,
i wouldnt go as far as to say this wildcat action is a good thing but I'm not prepared to fully condemn it either.
If what we read here is correct and BA plan to introduce an 'as and when needed' style of working for ground staff i think the implications for the rest of us in the job are huge - someone mentioned Swissport are also considering a similar idea - you can bet the others will be eagerly watching to see the outcome.
I wont get into a debate about whether or not this was the right course of action - I can see reasons supporting both sides anyway.
It is worth remembering I think that ground staff are often the first to be 'shafted' when money is tight. Morale is low from staff often on different contracts and benefits to their flying colleagues, the flying public becomes day by day harder to deal with and these front line boys and girls are daily taking the flak for, well, you name it.... Something was going to be the last straw at some stage and it looks like said straw has arrived.
Of course I sympathise with the pax whose travel plans have been sent into oblivion but for me the bigger picture is more important. Opposing a planned change to working practice which is likely in some form or another to affect us all sooner or later and not for the better.
Just my feeling on the matter......

[MarkD]

I am v. disappointed with BA and BA staff. Wildcat strikes (not walkout - strike) do most to hurt pax confidence. I am emigrating to Canada soon and intend to fly BA on my way there as up to now I considered them far superior to AC.

BA should pay the staff whatever the "final offer" increase was into their bank accounts. If the staff don't consider that sufficient they can strike, but perhaps enough of them will be happy with it as an interim settlement. However, if BMI flew ORK-LHR, I would be seriously considering a move from oneworld to Star as my main airlines of choice after today.

[Anti-ice]

Lets end this A+E doctors diversion.
It has been well recognised by the UK public that they are overworked already for a very long time.



It's not a case of 'Wildcat action being a smart move' .

It is a case of ordinary overworked , overstretched people being pushed beyond an unimaginable working pattern for the rest of their careers / lives.

British Airways staff have already made many sacrifices which have saved the airline £1BILLION in 18 months.

They have already made a manpower reduction already of 10,000 people.

They're operating more services than ever , with ever increasing expectations and the staff have accepted that and adapted.

Staff are working much harder than ever, and have been co-operative throughout the entire process.

They are now at a point where fatigue and stress are commonplace.
(Even the pilots sickness is the highest ever reportedly , despite a recent pay incentive).

The latest proposals represent a very disruptive working pattern / significant payloss for groundstaff.

For the cabin crew ,where significant crew reductions onboard have already taken place - another crew member is wanted off by the management.

This would mean 3 crew on A319/A320/737 - with 2 premium cabins and a FULL and proposed enhanced service - 1 crew member doing an entire economy cabin by themselves with a hot meal service etc . . . 7 crew on a 767-300. . . . 12 on a 744. . . 4 on a 757. . . .

Enough is enough - the staff are infuriated and astounded by the proposals - it is a true insult after the efforts made over the last 18 months and continual adjustments.(with no pay increase for 3 years).

Nobody wants to listen and so its not wildcat action - dedicated , overstretched and demoralised staff have been pushed over the brink.

Would you accept a HUGE and unreasonable difference to your future career or lives just lying down? NO.

Would you want to work 60 hour weeks with less than the crucial amount of crew for the next 30 years ?NO.

Would you want to be sent home from any job after 1 hour , and only paid for that?NO

Would you then come in the next day,on a regular shift and then be told you are doing 16 hours instead on a regular basis ?NO.

At the moment staff are given the impression that there is no room for negotiation . All falls wilfully on deaf ears.



Alot of listening needs to be done, compromises made and a successful out come for BA's Customers and Staff alike.

[Jet II]

MarkD

BA should pay the staff whatever the "final offer" increase was into their bank accounts.

Mark your not listening - the Staff would be very happy with your idea, its the mismanagement who have tied changes in working practices to the pay increase.

As has been said before - this dispute is not about pay.

[MarkD]

my bad. The unions here in Ireland are paid up members of the flat earth society and I tend to get a kneejerk reaction :D

[HZ123]

I cannot see what all the fuss is about, staff surely have to realise that pro rata the competition they get payed more, do less, have more breaks and still spend most of their time bemonaing the company. As typefied by the contributor who stated that crew applauded the empty flights.

Vice versa management who within BA are grossly over staffed with hardly any of them required to make a decision can hardly be suprised at this action or the reaction of other staff. It seems so few companies care at all these days and BA is just another one.

[G fiend]

Here's a few reflections from 15yrs in aviation.

Baggage handlers have always been militant. always have been, always will be...no change there then.

Ground/passenger handling staff, by the very nature of the people who do that job (they like dealing with people) are generally very tolerant...I say again, something must have really hacked them off, for them to do this. Maybe they've decided that time for talking has gone.

I have never known ground staff not go the extra mile...and let's be honest, no-one risk's their livelyhood (and by extension their mortgages, families etc) without very good reason.

nurjio...why was 'dispatchers' post "daft"? because it disagreed with you?, well, I disagree with yours. I think you should read anti-ice's post...seems to me he has some idea of what is going on.

I work for another large charter airline, and I sympathise with the BA staff. Have you thought that maybe the staff think they have no other choice?

[donder10]

British Airways staff have already made many sacrifices which have saved the airline £1BILLION in 18 months

True,but too many seem to be acting as if BA now owes them something in return for this.The fact is,BA still has a lot of debt(4-5billion?)although it is starting to pay it off well.Despite that,BA's debt was down-rated recently by a credit-rating agency.More needs to be done
This does seem to be a labour v management debate with the cover of this new card system.Yes,BA is overstaffed in management but it takes time to sort it out(doesn't BA have an old dating agreement with unions(not sure which)that job losses must be through natural wastage etc?)
If not,then more needs to be done to remove the cappucino sippers in middle management.But belt tightening will still need to be done throughout the operation to make BA more slimline compared to others in this highly competitive market.

[Dick Fisher]

I'm only at page two of the thread so far, but am feeling fairly incensed at some of the comments.

Having worked for part of BA as an independent contractor a few years ago and expecting to encounter a world-class business, I was surprised and amazed at some of the very poor management practices I found, along with an attitude to staff which belonged in the 19th century.

I've no doubt a lot of customers are feeling very unhappy by the walk out at Heathrow, but should the correspondents thus far simply blame the staff who walked?

As is often the case in big organisations, my experience of the front-line people at BA is that they work long and hard to deliver a high class service, despite the antics of their managers and Directors.

So, perhaps condemnation of those who walked out should be reserved until we hear exactly what BA Managers demanded of them - and what caused feelings to run so high that they felt compelled to demonstrate their frustration in the only way possible. By taking industrial action.

[ojs]

(a) Split shifts have *not* been introduced, and there are no plans to introduce them on Tuesday when ATR begins?

(b) The changes that will come with iARM are still under negotiation with the union?

(c) ATR is already used in other areas across the airline?


I ask these as (genuinely) open questions, and I hope respondents will answer in the same spirit.

[PeePeerune]

After having read the previous posts may i just say that within B.A many staff are receiving pay rises and more terms and conditions applied to there contracts which still make them below average salaries compared to other uk operators, whilst flight crew are receiving large pay rises and think its a flying school.........what way are they helping the company in such bad sad times in aviation?????????????????

[Jayjay Ococha]

Peepeerune,
Your post is probably constructed to illicit a reaction. If so, you succeeded. Please do not comment on matters on which you have obviously no comprehension.

[Dnomyar19]

Unofficial action such as this can never be justified. There is a due process which should be followed regardless of the strength of feeling.

It is true that BA has had a reduction in staff numbers over the past year or so as a result of FSAS. It is also true that there is a policy of no forced redundancies, and where possible displaced staff are found other positions via Careerlink.


Staff currently manually sign in for work. When shifts are quiet surpluss staff are allowed to go home early - with no loss of pay. Indeed some are probably even on overtime, so may find themsleves in the fortunate position of being paid time and a half for being at home. Of course in times of disruption staff would be expected to stay on, and handle the problems; but not for nothing. Overtime rates would kick in from the end of shift time.

ATR is used in several areas at LHR now, and has been in operation for some time. It has not resulted in staff in those areas working split shifts.

The 1st quarter results are out soon. They will probably be in line with the 4th quarter loss of £200 million. Yeilds are low. Premium traffic is almost non-existant. How can these irresponsible, selfish people think that their illegal action can do anything but strengthen BA's resolve to introduce ATR.

UK airlines do not have the luxury of Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. UK airlines are not getting the billions of $ of handouts that have allowed carriers like Delta, Continental and Northwest to post profits. If BA goes bankrupt - thats it.

If senior A grade staff took this illegal action they should pay the price. At the least any one who refused to work over the last few days should never be allowed to have the benefit of staff travel - ever.

[Ozzy]

BA staff have shot themselves in the foot. This is not the high flying nineties. The industry is in the toilet and the last thing staff need to do is give pax another reason to select a different airline - staff need all the business they can get. If folks don't want to work, fine go home and stay home. Give the job to someone who will stay at their post. The climate is not ripe for this kind of industrial behaviour.

Ozzy

[Notso Fantastic]

Well, it's all over! 250 people from one department went on unofficial action. Lovely chance though to indulge in a shedload of BA bashing, and 'while we're at it', let's stick it to the BA pilots too ('arrogant lot'). Well it's over! 250 people went out, the rest of the airline (some 50,000) tried to work around it as best they could. But don't let it stop the abuse! And now, the other 49,750 will be doing their best to get people to their destinations and get the airline back to normal, having hated being associated with such inconsiderate and savage action. But then a bit of BA-abuse is such fun, isn't it?

[JW411]

Oh poor, poor diddums!

[mainfrog2]

Another constructive comment from JW411.

As has already been stated, there is a due process for industrial action which these people stepped outside costing the passengers and the airline considerable amounts of money and jeopardising thousands of livelyhoods, (Anyone who thinks our livelyhoods haven't been put in jeopardy needs to wake up...).There can't really be any justification for that.

Many in the company are not happy with their lot but were working towards agreement via the trade unions, though it is sometimes dispiriting. This action has undermined the rest of the staff, the company and the trade union.

[flyingdutchman]

I still feel we haven't got down to the nitty-gritty on this one, despite Anti-Ice's insights.

I have great respect for BA ground staff, I use Terminal 4 about twice a week, and think that on the whole they do an outstanding job given the ever higher passenger expectations, fuelled by very unrealistic Company television advertisements..., and the abundantly clear lack of resources.

Remember the listening bank ? The bank that liked to say 'yes' ? Well, BA have now become the airline that likes to say 'sorry' :ugh:

Personally, this strike has inconvenienced me to the tune of £ 350.-- The price of a ticket on another carrier to get me to my intended Western European destination, and from Terminal 4 at that.

I believe that this strike action has done no-one any favours, but the ground staff must clearly have felt they were pushed too far once too often for them to take such drastic action.

As an aside, BA staff here and everywhere must surely be ashamed by their 'colleague' Brutus Shuttleworth, who somehow seems unworthy of that accolade. Lovely that, knifing your cabin crew in the back. :yuk:

Quoque Tu, Brute ? :ok:

[Anti-ice]

Thankyou flyingdutchman for your recognition - and all the others who realise that despite being non-professional , groundstaff have a very hard time of it at times.
They are sworn at /insulted on a DAILY basis , and quite often physically threatened / attacked.

They are dedicated, and the company rely on handfuls of goodwill from them at times.
They would NOT do this unless they were pretty much desperate.

They do not earn great money - my friend there has to work a double shift every week just to get by.

They just feel insulted that these draconian measures were even suggested, let alone imposed .

Ozzy, while i agree many things are not 'ripe' in worldwide aviation right now - how would you respond to a significant pay drop / significant change to your conditions?
We have agreed to alot already.
This is just going too far.

[Bmused55]

If all the information gathered so far are to be beleived then:

I must admit to feeling disgusted and the idiots on strike.

Don't they know the aviation industry is a hard place at the moment?The sh:mad:tbags are complaining because they'll have to Swipe in in the morning and swipe out at tnight, to ensure they worke the hours they're paid for??

Sack the lot of them and bring in the countless thousands that would love to work or better yet, bring back some of the people previously let go because of cost savings. That will cut down on training :)!

After all, this is unofficial action ergo it is illegal. BA can just turn round to them and tell em to ****** off home and wait for their P45's!

I'll be right behind them to take one of their jobs they're to uptight to do!

Bunch of childish idiots in a huff because they'll now have to show their doing what they're paid for!

[DCS99]

To Fly To Serve was the company motto when I joined BA.

At that time, we were all one big team: it didn't matter whether you were a cook, pilot or programmer. BA promoted that "one team" identity through events like "To Be The Best" and "A Day in the Life" showing how all the individual cogs contributed towards the objective of serving the customer and getting a regular profit-share.

We might have got a bit more money doing something else, but the Staff Travel was good and if you met up with other BA staff anywhere else in the world there was a common bond. The job was secure and terms and conditions were stable.

There was also a very strong sense of pride in the company.

I felt a sense of history as well. The first time I went into Speedbird House, I was impressed reading the names on the doors! Departments like "Legal and Government Affairs" sounded important to me, maybe dating from the British Empire, and showed what a sophisticated business operating an Intercontinental Airline really is.

Then along came 90s Outsourcing (QCS Catering, major parts of IT, Drake and Skull, Ryder Motor Transport), lower rate contracts for new entrants (crew, c-in, res agents), sending work overseas (Revenue accounts in Mumbai).

Job insecurity and fear of outsourcing grew, flight benefits decreased in value as airfares fell.

I have no doubt that the continued relentless pressure on costs coupled with out-of-touch management has led to the situation that kicked-off on Friday night.

Baggage handlers maybe, but Check-in staff and ticket agents
walking off the job in UNOFFICIAL action on one of the busiest days in the year shows:

1. BA management has no clue what it's really like to work on the front-line in the Heathrow Terminals. BA needs to force through more cost-cutting, but has screwed up big-time.

2. Staff are saying enough is enough. At least they're going down fighting.

For the pax reading this, I'm truly sorry this happened, but unless you work in the "full-service" airline industry you just don't know what it's like these days.

The lowest common denominator has won.
Passengers want low airfares. Quality goes down, service levels go down, but who cares: the ticket's cheap.

Paxboy - I predict you'll have to pay for your snack on board BA in the next few years and you'll be earning less free flights in the Exec Club.

Good luck to the staff in LHR, I fear the worst is yet to come.

Apologies for the long post, it's been "The Week of the Long-Knives" here in Switzerland at Swiss, so I'm at best philsophical, at worst, I'm starting to hate the industry I used to love. Schön abig.

[Jet II]

FWIW - I am actually working tonight and I have not heard a single employee criticise those who walked out earlier today - many were very supportive. This attitude even includes the junior management (senior managers don't work Saturday nights:hmm: )

This shows how bad the moral is within BA at the present time, something that should be laid at the door of the Board memebers. Perhaps, rather than treat the company as their own private air-taxi service, they should start to earn their remuneration, fire the incompetant senior management and get someone in charge who knows how to run a airline.

[Shuttleworth]

Crikey Notso - you sound astonished that anyone should have the temerity to criticise BA over this!

Lets face it BA comprises many differing attitudes and mechanisms. But these include- some crappy and often pompous line management, militant and sometimes lazy staff , outdated and inappropraite industrial agreements and an all to often lousy attitude to the fare paying passenger.

Until we (employees) accept that the passenger deserves better then we have a grim future. Try taking your head out of the sand!
_____________________________________
And Flying Dutchman - well what would your reaction be to hearing of thousands of pax stranded and aircraft departing empty ? Would you respond with a bloody great cheer ? Please let us all know where you stand on this ?

edited for spelling

[320JI]

All i can add is "selfish b******S" Having just spent an evening which had been planned for weeks without one of my best mates because he had the misfortune of booking BA instead of Ryan Air i am most angry. If you've got a grievence than air it properly through the proper channels. Do not leave innocent people who have nothing to do with your dispute stranded with no information or any hope of getting to their destination in a reasonable time.

I'm all for strike action but publicise it and let the innocents make alternative arrangements..i fear you have not won many friends by your actions however genuine your greivences are. Good luck in the future though, i know now to give BA a miss.

320

[BEagle]

Whilst it was obviously hugely distressing for the passengers involved (not me - I won't fly BA until both Marshall and King have finally gone), it must have been something very serious for the normally loyal, hard-working staff to take such action....

But BA has still to learn WHY it was once so good (although it was then called BOAC and BEA, perhaps) - and is now regarded with far less respect.

Shall be driving back past that profligate building next to the A4 on Monday wondering whether 'management' will have been working overnight to remedy the situation. Somehow I think not...

[G fiend]

In reply to some of the previous comments:

BA deserve all the flak they get- they had a history to be proud of, but they rested on their laurels and now all their chickens have come home to roost (excuse the cliches). They put themselves on a pedestal...

The companies that have sensible and enlightened human resource policies, don't have wildcat strikes...bad management brings it's own reward!

I do feel sorry for passengers...it's a shame they have been caught up in all this, but having seen [and been the brunt of] some of the treatment dished out to staff by passengers (rude, threatening violence, etc) as a matter of course, I haven't a great deal of sympathy.

The staff that took this action are normal people just like you and me...what would make you just walk off the job like they did?

I would guess that would take a lot...I suspect it took a lot for those people too.

So all those people who are condemning the BA staff I ask you why...Is it because you are selfish (I don't care about anyone else- just me) or you're jealous (I wish I could stand up for myself).

What was the quote?: "walk a mile in the other persons shoes"?

[ILS27LEFT]

I totally agree with the following statement:

"1. BA management has no clue what it's really like to work on the front-line in the Heathrow Terminals. BA needs to force through more cost-cutting, but has screwed up big-time.

2. Staff are saying enough is enough. At least they're going down fighting. "


Why BA Management did not face those anxious passengers in T1 the other day?
They should have tried, at least once, and felt the real atmosphere at the airport: e.g.the verbal and physical abuse which is everyday life for any agent.
They would have immediately understood that any restrictive measure imposed to any LHR ground staff is the equivalent of an insult, nothing else, as the job is very very hard and agents are overstretched to the limit.

Until that day, when Management will be enough brave to go down to the "Floor" and face the angry passengers, we will never see a good, efficient and professional line of Managers and Directors, especially those in charge of Fornt Line staff at LHR: it is impossible to explain a job like this unless you try it.

Thanks.

[WeatherJinx]

I would tend to agree with Kaptin M's comments. To the poster that said that unnanounced action was out of date, you were probably right 20 years ago (no one in their right mind would want a return to the 70's), but consider the bigger picture nowadays:

Business, spearheaded by the large multinationals and in passive collusion with various governments, has in recent years tended to view its employees increasingly as profit centres in themselves. Senior management exploitation tactics can (and frequently do include):

Erosion of or simply theft from pension funds

Shrinking salaries

Worsening working conditions

Increased hours

Bullying attitudes

Outsourcing/globalising
(which never benefits employees, only ever top management and shareholders)

Whilst harsh on the affected passengers this weekend, I think this action is indicative of the pendulum beginning to have swung too far the other way. When people can take no more, or feel that they are powerless in any negotiations, they only have one weapon of last resort - the inalienable right of withdrawal of labour.

Perhaps, as another poster put it, this is capitalism, but in my view, capitalism can only be sustainable when all parties benefit.

When the free market system starts to fail the majority of participants (as it appears to be beginning to do), maybe it's time for a restoration of more equitably balanced industrial relations, and an end to unbridled Fat Cat-ism?

Perhaps the world needs a few less beancounters and a few more visionary employers, who carry their staff with them and are not just pandering to equity holders?

Jx

[greenpark]

Gentlemen, please!!

Some of you are behaving like old women on this subject!(With no disrespect intended for all old women around!)
Those of you who criticise the staff s actions should consider yourselves fortunate for not being in their position and having, quite clearly, to resort to extremelly desperate measures to get their point across!
As for British Airways, they re still an extremelly reliable, reasonably priced and safe airline, with wonderful, hard working staff! ( and no, i dont work for them. )You can not possible judge the whole airline by this one incident!If you say you ll not fly with them again, it just shows your narrowmindness and lack of judgement.May i suggest you travel by coach or train from now on.There are clearly no problems in those areas in this wonderful country of ours...
And for the gentleman who s banker wife said she would not travel with BA again and would ensure that none of her staff would fly with them either, just ask her how would she feel if her staff decided to act in a similar manner ( in a surprising, un announced way, that she could not prevent because no one had actually given her any clues on what was about to happen)and all her clients decided to withdraw their money from the bank!Now, that would be a wonderfull, proportionate reaction!!!
People will still fly with British Airways , i know i will! And for those of you who choose not to, after this incident, i m sure you ll get another cheer from the cabin crew, because you re probably the kind of passengers they really dislike carrying...

[PeePeerune]

"Your post is probably constructed to illicit a reaction. If so, you succeeded. Please do not comment on matters on which you have obviously no comprehension"......thanks jayjay...

Sounds like you have no comprehension.I am not posting to create a reaction,far from it.All i am doing is expressing mine and maybe others opinions.We all feel for the pax affected by this walkout.But my point is why should some parts of the airline make such sacrifices and others not.Also to all those bitching about the employess concerned doing the airline no good what so ever,then either fly with some other airline like you say you will,or come and work for B.A for a while.............

[Preppy]

Anyone know what affect tomorrow's meeting at 1000hrs (i.e. Monday morning) will have on BA's flights??
:confused:

[answer=42]

As an SLF, I’ve always been impressed by the professionalism of the BA check-in staff at LHR (and LGW, for that matter). As I have observed and other posters have noted, they are the staff who face stressed passengers when things go wrong.

Other posters state that the strike has been set off by the introduction of computerised clocking in. The management’s objective is to ensure that time paid is time worked. This is all very normal and contractual. However, for low-paid workers like handlers, the extra pay that they receive from the inaccuracies of the existing manual system makes a big difference to their income. From their point of view, it is very easy to consider that this extra pay is theirs. Indeed they might even have taken the job knowing that they would get this extra. Management’s task is to implement existing contract conditions for the first time. Unless you have something to sweeten the medicine, this is not an easy management task.

We’ve seen rumours on this thread that BA are going to introduce ‘as needed’ shifts and split-shift working. Well, if you have a computerised employee time system, you don’t need to do this (not if you are competent management, anyway). So, if these rumours are still knocking around, the management haven’t finished the job of communication. And if they haven’t done this, introducing the change is asking for trouble.

The fact that management have not been in evidence at LHR talking to passengers illustrates their lack of preparation.

answer=42

[Hand Solo]

PeePeerune all areas of the airline are making sacrifices, even the management. The difference is that the rest of the staff just get on with doing their jobs instead of walking out in an illegal strike which screws the customers who pay our wages. Would you care to explain how the flight crew think BA is just a flying school, or are you just talking out of your rear?

[PeePeerune]

Look i am not into slagging anyone off here i am just trying to put across a point which i think is very valid,it seems that its alright for some employees to strike but not others..What about when ATC goes on strike......what happens to all the p****d off pax then and the airlines involved......oh and the flying school bit,i reckon other operators flight crew may be able to answer that......also please take note of the percentages stated below..........



It sounds like a glamorous life - being paid to jet around the globe. But, as a wave of strikes and go-slows prove, airline pilots are increasingly unhappy with their lot, writes BBC News Online's Jonathan Duffy.
The scene is depressingly familiar: sleeping bodies sprawled across airport seats, departures boards that announce every flight to be "DELAYED", weary airline staff trying to placate enraged passengers.

Summer has definitely arrived.



Airport misery: Lately pilot action has been the cause

Every year, come July and August, holidaymakers seem to find themselves unwitting victims of industrial action by aviation staff.

Air traffic controllers have got a bad name for going on strike just as the summer rush reaches its peak, but this year the focus has shifted to pilots.

A wave of industrial action by pilots seeking better pay has left passengers around the world facing severe delays or cancelled flights.

And in a number of notable examples, the striking pilots have been handsomely rewarded, sometimes with salary increases of up to 30%.

Now there are fears the industrial action will spread as crew with other airlines seek to match these generous settlements.



After striking, Lufthansa pilots won a 20% increase

It has even been reported that British Airways, where pilots with 20 years' flying experience can expect to earn about £110,000 a year, is braced for industrial action when new pay negotiations begin later this year.

The current trend for big increases was sparked last year by United, the world's biggest airline. Its 10,000 pilots won increases of about 24% after flight disruptions caused when many withdrew from voluntary overtime.

Delta followed this year with 24-34% pay increases for its pilots and earlier this summer Lufthansa settled for a 20% hike after a series of one-day strikes among its cockpit crews.

Cathay Pacific, the Hong Kong carrier, has struggled in the face of a pilots' union work-to-rule decree, and this month the Spanish flag carrier, Iberia, was beset by one-day strikes.

Dangerously exposed

All this comes on the back of a bumper year for many airlines. It seems pilots are keen to see a share of the spoils in their wage packet.



Pilots get their children's school fees paid as a perk

But the aviation industry is notoriously exposed to economic fluctuations and many are beginning to feel the pinch of the market downturn.

Companies have cut back on business travel - always a lucrative line for operators - and British Airways is among several carriers to have witnessed a drop-off in passenger numbers.

In addition, aviation fuel prices have risen and there is a shortage of experienced pilots in the jobs market.

Also, pilots' unions are traditionally well organised and pilots know they are operationally critical to their employers - a scheduled flight could take off with a slimmed down cabin crew, but without its pilots it's not going anywhere.

[Dispatcher]

Attention Bmused55

I pity your ignorance and pathetic attempt at trying to post a worthwhile comment on what has happened.

If swiping in and out was all that this was about then you would not have seen hard working, professional customer service staff, with homes and families to support, walk out on such a grand scale.

These people know better than most what a hard place the aviation industry is to work in at present. You really must be a simple chap with no understanding whatsoever of an airline workplace, or for that fact any other workplace, to produce a post of such complete crap.

Your absolute lack of respect and total misunderstanding of this entire situation leads me to suggest that you pull your head out of your arse, wipe the accompanying drivel that has attached itself to your head, and attempt to leave this site of your comments forever more.

And to 320JI………….

I am sure you and your friend will be back as soon as you see the fare lower with BA, or the flight time a bit preferable, or that your destination airport is 50 miles further away than where you plan to go, or because Ryanair really do provide a less than basic service that runs hours late as the norm.

[Final 3 Greens]

G fiend

I do feel sorry for passengers...it's a shame they have been caught up in all this, but having seen [and been the brunt of] some of the treatment dished out to staff by passengers (rude, threatening violence, etc) as a matter of course, I haven't a great deal of sympathy.

This is one of the barmiest and illogical statements that I have seen in several years of reading PPrune.

To use the unacceptable actions of a statistically insignificant minority to reduce your sympathy for the thousands of passengers affected by this illegal action is unbelieveable.

The two subjects are not linked and your warped thinking astonishes me.

Dispatcher

because Ryanair really do provide a less than basic service that runs hours late as the norm

Remind me, who has the largest market capitalization and who is the most profitable?

I don't know if you work for BA, but there are a number of people at LHR who need to wake up and smell the coffee.

The airline industry is a changed sector post 9/11 and change is not always good for the employees - but they can exercise their right to find another job in a better industry.

[Ranger One]

greenpark,

And for the gentleman who s banker wife said she would not travel with BA again and would ensure that none of her staff would fly with them either, just ask her how would she feel if her staff decided to act in a similar manner ( in a surprising, un announced way, that she could not prevent because no one had actually given her any clues on what was about to happen)and all her clients decided to withdraw their money from the bank!

Not what I said; industrial action can happen anywhere, anytime - although I still think that *this* style of action at *this* time is pure lemming behaviour.

Read my post again; the reason my wife felt that way wasn't so much down to the strike, it was the action of BA, reported by another poster, in threatening their *premium passengers* (an endangered species) with the police, if they didn't leave the exec. lounge immediately.

R1

[donder10]

Outsourcing/globalising
(which never benefits employees, only ever top management and shareholders)


Yes,but a public listed company is run for the shareholders ultimately.Outsourcing indicates that to some extent the current staff are less productive relative to their outsourced rivals.
But this is not a management vs labour issue apparently.

[WeatherJinx]

Donder 10

You extract and quote a line from my post, seemingly having failed to read it.

Then you fail completely to make any point of your own.

Why did you bother? :rolleyes:

[AJ]

Ryanair really do provide a less than basic service that runs hours late as the norm.

Dispatcher, please don't lecture other people on spewing drivel when you are no better.

Running hours late is far from the norm at Ryanair, I can assure you. In fact, our punctuality stats are generally pretty good.

Please, let's keep the thread relevant and not start taking cheap shots at other airlines and their staff....

[Hand Solo]

PeePeerune you really are a plonker!

Look i am not into slagging anyone off here

Err, yes you are. You're quite clearly trying to slag off the BA pilots and use them as some sort of bizarre justification for ground staff walking off the job.

..What about when ATC goes on strike

Remind me when the last ATC strike was in this country?


oh and the flying school bit,i reckon other operators flight crew may be able to answer that

I'm sure they can. I think my 625 hours flying per year on shorthaul compares favourably with EasyJets contracted 650 hours per year, or the 550 my mate did in Britannia last year. Makes the 700 hours my friends at LGW flew last year seem arduous. I won't expand upon the long haul guys doing the legal maximum of 900 hours per year.

I think I may also award you a prize for the most amateurish use of disinformation on PPRuNe . I am most impressed by your ability to trawl the BBC News site for a story from 24th July 2001 and pass it off as current fact. Forgotten what happened two months later? Some great howlers in there:

24% rise for United pilots - since given back as they get furloughed.

Delta on 24% - anyone know if they've still got that?

'Mystery' airlines gets 30% - easy to quote figures when you don't have to back them up with names.

Pilots get their childrens school fees as a perk - anyone living in the UK enjoying this?

So tell me PeePeerune, when did the BA pilots last take any form of industrial action?

[5711N0205W]

One of 10,000 or so stories from T1.

T1 Friday night I was there trying to get back to ABZ, fortunately I was travelling on business so had a helpful travel agency (thanks Amex) who managed to get me on a BMI flight to EDI on Saturday (wife drove down and picked me up from there).

Company credit card got me emergency clothes, toiletries and a hotel room. I was in a very fortunate position compared to some.

Bag still missing though, not seen after checking in at Paddington.

Where were the BA Management representatives? Walkout was at what 15:00/16:00 (maybe earlier, I don't know) all flights cancelled around 18:30/19:00, plenty of time for a representative(s) of management to get to gate 5 and advise people of what was going on even though they could probably not do anything about it.

There was no information coming out apart from one member of customer services staff (for the whole of the T1 Gate 5 area) who had chosen not to walk out and was helping as best she could in an intolerable situation without any real information to give or emergency plan to fall back on.

Surely BA has the resources to issue emergency food vouchers to those (and there were quite a few) transit passengers from overseas and others who were left totally stranded.

In this instance I don't really care how many hours a doctor works (discussion above) or whether swipe cards should be used or whatever the problem was that caused the (250 staff) to walkout. I am just totally apalled how an airine with 50,000 employees (quoted previously) could just totally abandon all these people some of whom were in very difficult situations.

It's not just the incident, it's the way it was handled.

Give me a good reason why I should not try to avoid travelling BA in future when I have an option on a route. I have always tried to support the flag carrier whenever I could.

[interestedparty]

May I divert the subject just slightly.
Most businesses have occasional (or otherwise) labour relations problems.
For the customer it important that the show gets up and running again quickly.
I am sure scheduling an airline operation is complex, but it does seem to me that the recovery has been painfully slow - and that presumably is down to the management!

[Hand Solo]

The actual schedule recovery is coming along quite nicely, with a large number of aircraft despatched empty yesterday to ensure they were in the right place when the ground staff decided they'd like to come back to work (what a lovely goodwill gesture, thanks unions!). The mess in the terminals is going to take lot longer to clear up.

[greenpark]

R1,

Similar thing Sir.She would still be punishing the company for the actions of a few individuals.I dont know what exactly happened that day at the lounge that could justify the passengers being threatened with the police, but presumably something must have triggered that threat.
As for treating" premium passengers " in a certain way, we ve all flown on either end of the cabin at one stage or another.Passengers should be treated with respect and courtesy, whether they re millionaires choosing to travel in economy, or businessmen and women travelling in business class, at their company s expense, and not their own...

[PeePeerune]

I thought this was a forum where you discuss things openly and not a tool for singling out people to criticise them.All i am doing is making light of the fact that i think it is fair to ask for certain conditions in ones place of employment and not be allowed to be walked all over.Some people feel they deserve more than others thou..........

Please stop and think for a while eh.....................

[JW411]

The thing that I find quite breathtakingly sad about this whole business is the general lack of sympathy for the thousands upon thousands of passengers who have had their lives ruined by this action.

It is a strange thing, but most airlines actually need people to buy tickets and travel upon their aircraft in order for those airlines to be able to pay the bills (and pay their employees). Airlines are not and never have been set up for the benefit of their employees.

Nothing that I have seen so far on this thread has addressed the horrors of 7,500 passengers spending the night in Terminal 1 only to discover the following morning that bu**er all is going to happen for at least another 24 hours (if you are lucky) because they've "gone out again".

Can you imagine how many good people missed weddings, funerals, dirty weekends and vital business appointments because of this action. Do you think they will fly BA again?

How can you explain to the chap in Bahrain who was expecting his children back from boarding school on BA125 that they are not going to be on it for it is coming to Bahrain empty! Do you really think that he is going to use BA ever again? Can't you understand why he is worried out of his mind as to where exactly in LHR his kids might be right now that the staff have bu**ered off?

BA are now claiming to be the new LCC (cheaper than FR and EZY) but I think they have a long way to go to be that good. Not even in their worst moments have any of their competitors reached such appalling depths in customer care.

I thought that Notso's puke-making diatribe last night was very interesting. It reminded me of when I was a little kid at primary school. When something went wrong the classic answer was "It wasn't me miss - a big boy did it and ran away". You have to realise my friend that the staff in Terminal 1 are also part of British Airways and not folks that have nothing to do with you that you can sacrifice whenever it suits you.

Apart from anything else, don't you realise that the FR and EZY guys have to go through this sort of crap every day. Join the club!

Hand Solo; so far I am with you!

[timzsta]

For those who say the staff who walked out should have followed the proper channels I say this. The staff walked out because they felt they will get nowhere by following the proper channels. Management in many companies these days just do not listen to their staff and have no idea what it is like on the front line, particulary in the airline industry. The staff at BA were pushed too hard and this is the result. Yes we are all sorry for the passengers who have faced terrible disruption, but there comes a point where you have to NO, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

My company had to deal with BA diverts at STN on Friday nights. The BA crews did their best to help us out, and were generally, I felt, understanding over the immense extra strain the diverts put our company under that night. They recognised that we were just another bunch of ground staff doing our best at a difficult time. I did not hear one BA crew member complain about what the staff at T1 had done. I think at one point the crews of the A319 and A320 that diverted were offloading the bags of their aircraft to help us out (stand corrected if not - but thats what it sounded like over the radio).

To the flight deck crew of the A320 that left for Budapest at about midnight - your generosity was greatly appreciated.

Whichever airline crew I deal with, all to often the impression I get is that we are all the same, the people on the front line, making the best of a bad lot, battling against clueless management, constantly under pressure to do it quicker, for less money, in less time.

Well maybe the corner has been turned and the junior staff in companies are going to start holding the management to account. There are interesting times ahead.

[phnuff]

Edited (and removed) by phnuff who, on refelction does not feel pprune is a suitable forum for him to vent his anger against an ignorant American

[flyingdutchman]

Dear Shuttleworth,

Thanks for your question.

It is not so much that I think CC cheering empty aircraft is a brilliant emotion, a little primitive if anything, but what I didn't particularly care for was your use of this thread to slag off your CC 'colleagues' who are nothing to do with this strike.

You, as a self proclaimed Compass Centre user, may be able to shed more light on this, but I believe the reason the aircraft were departing LHR empty was simply that passengers could not physically get to check in at Terminal 4.

To ease pressure on terminal staff BA has 'temporarily' suspended staff travel. This has had an impact in a way BA clearly did not anticipate. This morning six longhaul departures had to be cancelled, because of 'crew shortages': Flight and cabin crew commuters could not get to work.

Perhaps I may ask you, and Anti-ice and Hand Solo if they are still here, for your considered opinion. If the dreaded iARM system that seems to have caused all this drama is to come online on Tuesday, will we have the whole palava all over again on that day ?

Finally, Ops Desk staff at the Compass Centre allegedly also went walkies at the weekend over iARM. Now, please tell me you weren't one of them ?

;)

[PeePeerune]

To all the FAT CATS at B.A this was your own doing..........


p.s Cheers "solo" you enlightened me with the fact that other airlines reduced or took back pay rises.....

hmmm........ B.A = flying school???

as stated earlier ......stop and think eh

[Sonic Cruiser]

I Have heard that flights that should have gone over 3 hours ago are still here!!!!
Apparently Terminal Four is chaos and struggling to cope with all of this. Too many pax and bags for the airport to cope with.

[orange_bubble]

BA are taking the piss- running adverts on the TV taking the mickey out of low cost airlines- Ryanair and easyJet have NEVER caused this much disruption to passengers.

Time Rod Eddington took some tough measures and crushed those unions and old BA attitudes.....

[Hand Solo]

PeePeerune what on earth are you talking about?

hmmm........ B.A = flying school???

as stated earlier ......stop and think eh

What? Either make your point, if you have one, or stop posting drivel that implies you have a point when you don't. Or, if you are still trying to have a dig at flight crew in BA, I'd point out that whilst they now earn equivalent money to their European counterparts they still fly more hours and have fewer days off per year. Also, the Yanks were being paid literally twice as much for half the work for your information.

Flyingdutchman - I understand the flights did go empty simply because they couldn't get any passengers on and needed to protect the LHR inbound services as best they could. This occasionally happens when the operation hits major disruption. I suspect the whole palava will happen again on Tuesday unless somebody knocks some sense into the ground staff. I'd not heard any reports of Ops Desk staff going walkies, they seemed fully manned when I passed the desk. Besides, I don't really see iARM as being an issue with them as they have to swipe in and out of Compass anyway, just like all the other residents. If they weren't at the Ops desk I would suggest it was either because they were getting a breather from the massed ranks of crew beseiging them, or they'd gone to the Ops crisis meeting that day.

[Shuttleworth]

Dear flyingdutchman.
Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
I'm saddened to that you view the applause and noisy cheer as "primitive". It's simply outrageous.
I'm not part of ops - just one of a small minority in Compass that day who was absolutely horrified at the negative impact on passenger loyalty and our future job security. Some (more than half of those I saw to be honest !) cabin crew were running round like schoolchildren, giggling and positively exhilerated about the airline getting kicked between the legs. I'm sorry - but this is an industry forum and I think other pilots would be interested to read of how some of our crew behaved on the day!

Read the posts above - you can see how many passengers hate us now.

It's probable that you would react differently . I hope the commuting situation gets back to normal for crews based overseas. Regards.

[Anti-ice]

You have a very short memory then orange - bubble.

BA carry over 40million people a year , regretably a large number were affected this weekend, but then again, this IS a large airline.
Long-established too.

I seem to remember EZY being caught with their pants down when adverse weather was last with us, leading to v v extensive delays.
I'm sure their pax were p***ed off too.;)

[PAXboy]

One poster said: "Having worked for part of BA as an independent contractor a few years ago and expecting to encounter a world-class business, I was surprised and amazed at some of the very poor management practices I found, along with an attitude to staff which belonged in the 19th century."

Having worked in the UK for 23 years in a variety of different areas (finance/retail/oil/freight/etc) this statement is nothing special to BA. It could be said of practically any company (public listed or private) that you care to name. When it comes to management, BA are not alone, simply one of many.

DCS99: "For the pax reading this, I'm truly sorry this happened, but unless you work in the "full-service" airline industry you just don't know what it's like these days."

I'm not so sure! If one has worked for a company where overtime is expected at short notice but is not paid; by a company that cuts every corner where they think it will not be seen by their customers; by another who sells goods of poor quality at premium prices; yet another who puts in more customer service phone lines to handle the complaints, rather than fix the products that people are complaining about ... etcetera. The details may be different but the way that business operates in this country is not. Those if us that use the airlines consistently over the years, yes, I think that we can understand something of what the staff experience.

Working on contract in the late 70s, I worked in the back office of dozens of companies, then in a few longer permanent posts and then freelance in telecomms and IT across another dozen major organisations. I could shuffle them together and deal them out and you could not tell one from the other. They have all been infected by the idea that modern 'management' can fix everything by just applying a bit more management. As I have said here before, Blair is currently trying to run the country in this way - and that ain't working either.

DCS99 went on: The lowest common denominator has won.
Passengers want low airfares. Quality goes down, service levels go down, but who cares: the ticket's cheap.

Yes, very well put. The problem is throughout the land. The Brits love to get things on the cheap and them complain when they break. It might be a car or a PC or a plane ticket.

DCS99: Paxboy - I predict you'll have to pay for your snack on board BA in the next few years and you'll be earning less free flights in the Exec Club.

Without a doubt.

[Jet II]

Hand Solo

I suspect the whole palava will happen again on Tuesday unless somebody knocks some sense into the ground staff.

Can I suggest you butt out of this dispute - the flight crew have had a very good pay-rise to make them 'the best paid in Europe' - so kindly bog off and let the ground staff sort out their own terms and conditions - remember the flight crew community never considered the ground staff when they took industrial action in the past to protect/enhance their terms and conditions.

[donder10]

WeatherJinx,
despite the apparent spread of 'fat-cat pay' (eg GlakoSmithKline severance pay)median wages continue to grow at steady rates in the UK.

But airline pay may continue to fall for a while as deregulation in the EU market continues(it's still treated with kid gloves by too many)and the LCCs increase their market share forcing 'traditional airlines' to cut costs(who gets cut?)to compete.

Still,BA management should have been around T1 while it was going on(especially not despite it being unofficial and unexpected).Just adds fuel to those who say they are out of touch.

[GS-Alpha]

BA are taking the piss- running adverts on the TV taking the mickey out of low cost airlines- Ryanair and easyJet have NEVER caused this much disruption to passengers.

Time Rod Eddington took some tough measures and crushed those unions and old BA attitudes......

Since this was an unofficial strike - it presumably had nothing to do with the union? So crushing the union would not necessarily have prevented the strike action.

If I were you I would hope that this situation is handled well by BA - or this will spark similar action in your own low cost airlines.

There seem to be a lot of comments about the ground staff being forced into this because an official strike could have been prepared for and therefore would have been less damaging. And yet at the same time, many people think BA have not done enough for it's customers? What are they supposed to have done? All of their ground staff walked out with no warning? Someone mentioned meal vouchers - who is supposed to organise this? The people who do this job had walked out. If the ground staff had thought that BA would cope no problem without them, they would not have walked out in the first place.

Unfortunately this kind of action effects EVERYONE within the airline. As pilots we just have to accept that some posters will leap at the chance to take a dig at the airline's pilot community, no matter how uninformed and laughable those comments might be.

I wish those people that felt the need to take extreme action the best of luck, but I also hope that they will think long and hard about the long term damage this kind of action does to the company before they think of doing it again.

[LatviaCalling]

There once was an American President by the name of Ronald Reagan who fired all air traffic controllers in the United States because of strike action. Right or wrong, this was his perogative because the ATC people fell under the FAA and the FAA was a federal government agency.

He told them to take a dump and told those who wanted to work to come back. Many did. In the beginning it was chaos, but after a few months everything settled back to normal.

If this was an unauthorized walkout at BA, they should get the shaft.

My point is that if I'm going to be a traveller on BA or any other airline, I would like to know when possible strike action may be taking place, so that I can plan my vacation trip around it.

What this Terminal 1 thing has done is hurt the poor vacation traveller who has saved his pounds so he can take his family to Mallorca. The business traveller will have his secretary re-book him on another airline. So, my conclusion is that basically the so-called "working" masses are hurting their own "working" masses.
And that stings and really pi55es the poor bloke off.

[WeatherJinx]

Donder 10

...I'll ask you again - what on earth is your point? If you disagree with anything I stated in my earlier post, then please enlighten me as to what it is you were disputing - I'll be happy to discuss it with you. Or perhaps you agree with me - please give me a clue!

I'm stating my position, an opinion if you will. You are responding with what sounds like micro-economic industry commentary.

Do you actually have a position on this? If so, I can't tell from your post what it is. Frankly, it sounds like meaningless econo-babble.

Jx (sheesh!):uhoh:

[Hand Solo]

Jet II are you the engineer who once told me we couldn't get any spares for the aircraft because the budget for them had been used for the flight crew pay rise?

In case you've missed the point (which you evidently have), what has chroncially pi55ed off thousands of valuable customers is not what the ground staff get paid, but the fact they've just staged an illegal walk-out without warning and left them in the lurch. As these people pay my wages and yours, I'd suggest they're the ones you should be saving your sympathy for.

I'll also ask you the same question as PeePeerune - just when was the last time pilots took industrial action in BA?

[HOVIS]

ojs

quote:The Engineers are going to have to get used to it under the EWS project which includes an ATR element too.

The engineers last month rejected the companies pay offer (by 97%) which included, amongst other things, adoption of the EWS project. Talks are ongoing, but I would not have been at all suprised if the walkout the other day had been by engineering staff. Feelings are running high throughout the airline not just groundstaff.

Hand Solo

Are saying that it is ok (for pilots) to take industrial action in support of a pay claim when times are good. But not ok to strike to preserve ones T&C when times are tight?

Either way passengers get the cack end of the stick!

[Hand Solo]

No I'm not saying it's right for pilots to strike. If you're referring to the US pilots striking then I thought their rises were profligate and unsustainable, as we now see to be the case. My point is all cost savings, pay awards and T&C changes have been negotiated, over time, with the support of the members, in an adult fashion. At no point did we (or any other group of employees) throw our toys out of the pram and stop working without negotiation, and at no point in the negotiations did we hold a gun to the companys head with the threat of immediate strike action.

[Paterbrat]

Those who walked off the job are obviously unhappy with the job and dissatisfied with the pay, they should keep walking and find another job.
There are people who will do the job and accept the conditions, many professions have long hours and are stressfull. The militancy of a few here will cost many. There are procedures for strike action which simply were ignored. The militants seemingly don't care about anybody but themselves and their demands, the arguments put forward by them that others simply don't understand doesn't hold water. They acted as a block in order to force their demands. If the job is so bad and the pay and conditions so poor the laws of supply and demand would operate and no-one would take the job in the first place.

[donder10]

WeatherJinx,
without going off-topic again(!),my point is that this is meant to be an issue over the implication of the new card system but more and more it seems that the card system is being used as a cover for other,deeper issues.

[Anti-ice]

No I'm not saying it's right for pilots to strike. If you're referring to the US pilots striking then I thought their rises were profligate and unsustainable, as we now see to be the case. My point is all cost savings, pay awards and T&C changes have been negotiated, over time, with the support of the members, in an adult fashion.
At no point did we (or any other group of employees) throw our toys out of the pram and stop working without negotiation, and at no point in the negotiations did we hold a gun to the companys head with the threat of immediate strike action.

Then again Hand Solo , the pilots payrise was smoothed through with no hesitation by BA and there are many grinning cheshire cats running around Compass who when asked ,reply 'that they are significantly better off '.

This on top of a good salary (by uk standards)anyway.

There are many who say ( that through this unpromising time for airlines )that it equated to an astounding 16%.

The issue here revolves around people who 'just get by' and already have to do double 16 hour shifts to survive.

Its insulting to say they have thrown their toys out of the pram - they are v resilient and enduring people,they have to be in the environment they work in.
They regretably ,were pushed over the edge by the events of last week.

Frontline staff at BA have had to adapt to vastly reduced personnel levels against the background of recent events, and onboard / the ground in some cases the amount of staff has been halved.

(Although its not feasible) How would you feel if you checked in tommorow,was told from now on you fly the plane on your own, lose your payrise and alot more , have your hours maxed up to 60 a week, and given complete roster instability ? ?(Only being paid for what they find you to do at a moments notice?)

You wouldn't stand for it i'm sure (especially if your basic was £8k)
You know that BA has reduced its staff by 10,000 and you know that £1billion has been saved .

Through the course of this ,many sacrifices have been made ,many hardships endured .
The customers overall v good satisfaction rating has stayed at 78-82% and in fact increased.
This hasn't happened by magic.
Its happened through significant effort and ALOT of goodwill.
Naturally also for a desire to see BA succeed.

Some of this has been applauded, but recent proposals (including even lower crewing levels) have been a seriously massive kick in the teeth for all concerned

Please look beyond the ' i'm alright jack ' perspective .
This involves people who are fearful of losing their homes / are having abysmal working practices placed upon them.

[Jet II]

Hand solo

Jet II are you the engineer who once told me we couldn't get any spares for the aircraft because the budget for them had been used for the flight crew pay rise?

No - we cannot get spares, but that is just down to mis-management.:D

I'll also ask you the same question as PeePeerune - just when was the last time pilots took industrial action in BA?

They haven't needed to - the company is quite aware that the flight crews are quite prepared to walk out when they want something. Let me remind you of some quotes on this forum by BA flight crew the last time you wanted a pay rise.

The only thing we can do is ensure action is voted for, and get our heads down and take action, and ignore TV reports, adverse journalism and these nasty nosy 'opinion about everything in aviation' non pilot types,

our true value will only be seen when we walk off the job and flights are cancelled. After 2 weeks, Flt Ops would implode as people go out of recency, etc. A month long strike would take 6 months to recover from. It would cost BA £100s of millions. A professional pilot is not a charity - show us the money!!!

etc. etc. - Hand there was not a lot of 'sympathy' for the 'valuable customer' then and I suspect it will be exactly the same next time the flight crew community are angling for a big pay rise.

Illegal walkouts are not the best way of solving industrial problems - everyone is agreed on that - but the staff felt that they were put in a position by management that they had to respond to. I would just say that there is much more support for the action by the girls in T1 throughout the airline than there ever was for the flight crew pay claim.

[GS-Alpha]

There are many people here who seem to be condoning the illegal action taken by the ground staff when they staged an unannounced, unofficial strike. This action caused great inconvenience and trauma to many of BA's customers, and they were not even given the slightest hint it was going to happen, so they could not choose to avoid it. You could even argue that some unaccompanied minors were left in danger. How can this kind of illegal action ever be justified? Perhaps you guys think that hijacking can be justifiable too?

The ground staff would have had my full support had they negotiated their differences in a more appropriate way. And I think this is what the majority of the postings from the other side of the argument are saying here. I don't think anyone is saying the ground staff do not deserve the right to negotiate their terms and conditions. However, BA's customers deserve a little more than what they had to experience a few days ago, and I hope it does not happen again on Tuesday or any other day.

[openfly]

This action by the selfish T1 staff is suicidal....wildcat strikes are illegal. The loss in goodwill and revenue will be substantial. Things were just getting better and rumour has it that plans were in hand for a small profit-share this year, in good faith. Now...nothing, and no dividends for the shareholders who have been very patient.
The staff have played right into management hands. This is ammunition for setting up, or using, a third party contractor, in BA uniforms and with much lower salaries and inferior working conditions. After this weekends behaviour, maybe they deserve it. I hope that action is taken against the perpetrator.
I gather that the main crux of the matter is that ground staff are allowed to knock-off early if things are quiet and slip away. If they come in late then they get covered. All BA wants is a fair days work and to keep a watchful eye on these lax activities. Seems fair to me. There are plenty of other people out there who would happily do this job.
Good luck to Bmi and Virgin...they are rubbing their hands in glee.

[cirrus01]

Keep hitting a Dog with a stick...........one day this Dog will bite back. :uhoh: :uhoh:

[Final 3 Greens]

Keep hitting a Dog with a stick...........one day this Dog will bite back.

.... and then be destroyed.

[G fiend]

I would like to remind everyone here that there is no such thing as an "illegal" strike. Everyone who works (with some exceptions) has the right to withdraw their labour in a time of dispute. The fact that a union hasn't organised it just makes it unofficial. There are some legal implications, admittedly, but
I'm given to understand that this walk-out was fairly unanimous (and from what other posters have said- well supported from other parts of BA) and consequently could be defined as spontaneous action because of a failure of the dispute process.

As for militancy...I would suggest that the numbers involved indicates some deep-set and long-term grievances, that haven't been dealt with or even acknowledged by the management.

As I believe I said before...these are ordinary people like you and me...to make them take this action suggests that circumstances have become intolerable.

Final three greens...I'm afraid that the unpleasant minority is no longer insignificant, I speak from experience. (so much so, that it is a now H&S requirement for companies to have protocols and procedures in place to protect those staff dealing with the public from abuse and violence) but we're getting off the thread here.

I hope that BA management see this as a wake up call...there is a lesson to be learnt here...the only way to ensure successful change is to engage in proper two-way dialogue with everyone concerned...other airlines have successfully changed to meet new circumstances, by doing just that.

IMHO the most successful companies are the ones that realise their staff are a resource not just assets.

[Paterbrat]

"There are some legal implications admittedly..." says it all really. There is a framework for greviances to avoid what just happened.
It was a deliberate action designed to damage BA and demonstrate the power of militancy, nothing less and nothing more. The numbers in relation to the total company in fact seem not to bear out 'intolerable conditions' simply that some people want more, and in todays uncertain market that isn't always possible.
Militants very rarely want to see any other point of view than their own unfortunately, and their 'intolerable' is sometimes open to question. The fact that protocols exist to deal with unpleasant passengers indicates that things have changed and indeed protections are in place for the staff, management must have listened to impliment such a procedure.
Most staff are indeed an asset there is regretfully always a minority it can well do without and the listening is a two way process.

[Maxflyer]

G Fiend says,

I'm given to understand that this walk-out was fairly unanimous (and from what other posters have said- well supported from other parts of BA) and consequently could be defined as spontaneous action because of a failure of the dispute process.

Spontaneity? - First day of the school holidays. All seems a little convenient!

[Final 3 Greens]

G Fiend

Final three greens...I'm afraid that the unpleasant minority is no longer insignificant

I didn't say insignificant, I said statistically insignificant. There is a big difference between the words.

If you are the person abused, the event is significant to you, but that does not mean that the total number of incidents are statistically significant compared to the huge nunber of pax who check in without problems. BTW, there is a difference between unpleasantness and abusive behaviour - the former is a fact of life for those in customer facing roles (I have served my time there too), the latter is unacceptable and should be dealt with firmly.

I make this point as a prelude to drawing your attention to the fact that 100% of the pax trying to check in during this dispute were affected by the wildcat action.

Thus your logic was completely muddled.

[aeroflirt]

250 BA managers STILL sitting at home on full pay whilst they find new jobs.

Many BA managers and office employess simply reshuffled and renamed rather than genuine staffing cuts. A manager who is an acquaintance of mine actually boasted about this very fact.

Decisions to drastically cut back on frontline staff and product made by office based maanegment who do not have to deal with the fallout of customer disappointment.

Unrealistic ad camapigns promising more when in reality frontline staff and product have been whittled away to below the minimum our customers should reasonably expect.

Management refusing to enter negotiations with unions , resorting instead to enforcing more and more changes to working conditions at a time when the public are expecting (and rightfully so...) more and more for their ticket price.

Frontline staff , PARTICULARLY ground staff left to face our customers and deal with the consequences of the cutbacks made by people who have no idea of the realities of serving the public.

Decisions made by management whose flying experience is First Class Travel . Staff travellers don't have to face the endless queues at check-in , they have a dedicated check-in desk at LHR and LGW.

Cheering about empty flights in the crew centre at LHR with no thought to the disapponted , stressed out customers suffering in the terminals. Very heartless and tactless response.

Walking out on said customers by ground staff. Has greatly damaged our company , caused huge misery to many and jeopardised all of our jobs.

Welcome to the new BA. Frontline staff feeling bullied and undervalued. Frontline staff by their nature often go more than the extra mile for the airline and it's customers. In the past two years , it has become increasingly thankless and stressful as we deal with the fallout of customer disappointment and ever increasing stress and anxiety that customer's feel.

All that frontline staff do is to implement decisions made by people who have no contact with our customers yet feel qualified to make sweeping changes which they do not have to feel the impact of. They rely on us to keep smiling and get on with it whilst they work nine to five in the cosy little offices or "shared desks" and then go home each evening and weekend and get on with their lives. As was evident by their lack of presence this weekend.

Sadly , it is our wage payers , the customers who have had to pay for BA's inept management this weekend. It is they who suffered and they who we all have to work towards winning back. Ultimately we will all suffer at BA as more business is lost and customer loyalty vanishes becuase of this weekend. It's time for all BA employees to move forward now and work together , not against each other.

We will all have to work even harder to rebuild customer confidence. I'm pretty sure that all of the frontline staff will do just that , I only hope that our management will stop plundering from our ranks and allow us too offer the service we want to provide.

[Jet II]

Paterbrat

There is a framework for greviances to avoid what just happened.

Er, I think that you will find that the management has decided to implement the new computer system without agreement with the staff.

If one side is not interested in negotiation, what 'framework' do you think exists?


Several reports in the media have commented on the total lack of BA staff in T1 whilst the dispute was in progress - where were all the management? surely thay could have rounded up a couple of thousand from Waterworld and set about explaining the situation to the pax, sorting out hotels etc. Or did they all just go home?

[G fiend]

Paterbrat...I'm sorry old chap, but I think you missed the point of the legal implications bit...what I meant was that an unofficial strike has certain limits and restrictions on how they can be conducted and who can be involved.

As for militants, I think you'll find that most people have a similar opinion of militants as you...which is why I've been trying to say these are ordinary people with ordinary lives, hopes and fears. I think you should stop trying to demonise them.

Also old boy, I said people are a 'resource' not an 'asset'. A resource is something finite that a company cannot do without, an asset is an additional commodity.

Finally, paterbrat...HSE introduced the requirement, not BA

I ask the question again...What has so hacked these ordinary people off that they take such extreme action?

Final three greens...I left out the word statistically on purpose... after alll aren't there "lies, damn lies and statistics". But my point is still that incidents of abuse and violence all too common...so much so that HSE believe it is a work-place safety issue...So much so that it is my understanding that legislation is being drafted to make companies legally responsible for protecting their staff against such incidents.

However, I accept your point, perhaps I made a sweeping statement.

Maxflyer...the initial action came after a meeting, We don't know what was said at that meeting, but I very much doubt it was "Quick let's all walk-out, then I can lose the money that I've already paid out on child care".

There is much more to this dispute than we all know...Anti-ice and aeroflirt perhaps know more than us and have taken time to detail their opinions...perhaps we should read and reflect.

I would like to ask a question: can we judge an organisation's competence by the way they treat their staff? Is it indicative of the way they conduct business?

[Joyce Tick]

Check-in staff had a choice, Management had a choice, but the strike gave no choice to the passengers. You selfish bastards gave no options to my daughter who had to cancel the holiday I bought her as a reward for four years' study.

There were scores of families in tears outside T4 yesterday - I hope you strikers are feeling really proud of yourselves today. How do you sleep at nights?

If I didn't think strike action was always a bad thing before today - I sure do now..

[Anti-ice]

Well Joyce - maybe if your terms and conditions were eroded beyond the point of acceptance , you would do the same.

Some of these staff who check people in 365 days of the year can't afford a mortgage , let alone 4 yrs of studies and a holiday to boot , so you are really not living in the same world as them.
You are therefore not in a position to compare.

Also - swearing is not allowed on this forum.

It's not the end of the world,so calm down dear.

These people are fighting to hold onto a reasonable standard of living for the rest of their careers/lives.

Don't blame the staff - blame the management who chose to ignore the situation developing
It was highly regretable that so many people were affected , but it is a big airline .These people were pushed beyond the limit.

Also If your daughter has been studying for 4 years, i doubt she will ever be in a low paid job and have to endure something like this.

[Final 3 Greens]

G fiend

after alll aren't there "lies, damn lies and statistics".

No, statistics do not lie, but sometimes humans use them to make points of debatable integrity by spinning the context.

Violence is not acceptable, I got threatened by a drunk pax at a major European airport two weeks ago, when he decided to push into the check in queue in front of me and I (foolishly) commented.

You might be interested to note that the check in agent accepted him without a word and then said to me "what can I do?." And he was on the flight too - at least I was a few rows away.

[G fiend]

Joyce Tick...
I'm sorry, but I agree with anti-ice here. Ground staff in the aviation industry have always been very badly paid, and they seem to be bearing the brunt of further cost-cutting exercises within BA particularly. If BA had an effective framework for resolving disputes, or even communicating with its staff, I don't think the dispute would have happened (FYI BA has been notorious within the industry for the way it treats its staff).

losing a holiday does not compare to fighting to keep a roof over your head. All the staff want is decent pay and conditions, not too much to ask is it?

Final three greens...
A rather too common story I'm afraid...If you had called the police then I doubt you would have had much joy from them either...

I wonder why the check-in responded in that way?...perhaps they felt they would get no support from their management?

[Final 3 Greens]

G fiend

Outsourced check in service mate. Probably expedient to 'transfer' the problem away. There's not much profit in getting involved in this sort of problem I wouldn't have thought and as the airline involved was LCA, probably even more so.

When you have 90 mins between check in and boarding, who at the gate could know whether the pax was drunk at check in?

I may be doing a great disservice to the check in agent, but that's my cut, she may have flagged a comment on the check in system for all I know.

[FOXIBOY]

Joyce Tick ? would you work for £8000 per year be expected to go home when its not busy then be told after an hour go home oh and by the way you will only gat paid for 1 hour that day,or maybe you turn up for work to be told you are working 16 hours today and you can only have 30 min break,at the end of the day the employer benifits in the long run,and they dont seem to understand many people in this world have to work just for the basics in life like FOOD, never mind holidays etc. Maybe a few people need to experience living on the bread line like many of us in the aviation industry do week in week out,and before anyone says get another job ,it isnt that easy anymore. So give them a break they are only trying to make life a little more enjoyable for them selves is that so wrong or is everyone who is slagging the BA staff off just selfish,i do feel sorry for the passengers affected but this is life deal with it. !!!!

[aeroflirt]

Dear Joyce ,

No doubt your daughter wears trainers by a large organisation which pays young children peanuts to work long hours.

Also , I'm sure that those "selfish bastards" have had some very sleepless nights recently. Most frontline staff at BA have at the moment. You have absolutley no idea how bad things are . We work for a company which bullies and lies and has a top heavy management structure.
To those who say "just walk". Sometimes that isn't an option if you have a wife and family to support. I'm sure you can appreciate that Joyce as you clearly and rightly love your own child very much and want only her happiness.
How would you feel if you had to cancel a family outing or watching a school sports day because YOUR employer had decided to call you back to make up for the hours you did not work earlier in the month , when you were sent home because it was quiet.
How would you feel when it was your child looking at you and crying and you did not know how to make them understand ?

You have every right to feel aggrieved at the disruption to your daughter's long planned trip, just as the ordinary workers have the right to feel aggrieved at the brutal erosion to their working conditions and lifestyle and the consequent knock-on effect this has on THEIR families.
They are doing what concerned parents do , they are fighting for the right to a decent family life.

[PeePeerune]

Good luck to all the people within B.A who are finally standing up for their own rights whatever your position in B.A and apologies to the customers affected.To all the other operators,who i am sure are going to suffer the same problems in the near future,i suggest if you want to avoid such problems listen to your staff and get rid of all those over paid under worked managers e.t.c (B.A is a perfect example of empire building).

JetII im with you and probably many others on this one....

[welsh viking]

Foxiboy Thats life so deal with it!!!! great attitude. Shouldn't we be taking the middle ground here.

Perhaps the ground staff do have a point about being underpaid, undervalued etc etc but should they walk out in the way that they did. Surely it would have been better for them to negotiate. Now many have posted this was not possible. If not then why not officially strike, give the airline notice so they can try and provide a service to all those stranded pax and also perhaps media (optimistic here) could have informed jo public about issues, creating maybe a bit of public sympathy. Don't beleive they went about this the right way!!

£8,000 is not a good salary. Are you sure this is what they get paid? find it a little hard to beleive. Yes food on table and mortgage are higher priorities than a holiday but someone might have been saving up for that holdiday for 20years and now it has gone down the drain. Wonder how you would feel if it happened to you. Quick note on student. May have a better chance of getting a decent salary but will probably come out with 15000-20000 debt, before thinking about mortage etc


Senior Management should have had the balls to speak to the public and face the barrage of criticism! would not have been pleasant but atleast they would have got some respect.

Today things are tougher everywhere. Management should bot get blamed for everything. Always two sides to the story and before you say it no I am not one of them although I am in the industry and had a 0.9% pay increase after 9/11 and 2.6% this year. Real terms my salary has dropped but I am lucky to still be in the industry when a lot of my colleagues are being made redundant! When required I stay after my working hours and don't get overtime.

[nicecsd]

welsh viking
I agree with your last posting entirely...
I am not arguing the reason for the walk out but the way it was executed...illegal ad hoc disputes are not allowed and should not be tollerated
I am discusted at the endemic selfshiness of my fellow collegues in whichever department they happen to work
i am sure we will survive this latest drama and lessons will be learned by both sides and this wawe of destructive attitude will end and solutions will be found....but looking at the world today perhaps I am naive and living in a fantasy world....the new concept to destroyand rebuild better is not what I was brought up to believe in...

Good luck to ALL of us.

[FOXIBOY]

i know a few people who earn this amount each month not only at ba but working in other areas of the industry,esp in the the charter airline side of it many new crew only start off wiyh this amount ,try making ends meet when some peoples take home can be as little as £600 per month.

[orange_bubble]

21st July;

"Raquel Milgram, who has been at the airport with her three young children and no luggage since Saturday"

Disgusting. I hope she sues BA for thousands.


"However further industrial action may be announced by unions."

[welsh viking]

Foxiboy

I take it that these people are on min wage. Cabin crew may start on that basic but then you have to add on the allowances as well. This oftern brings the figure a lot higher.

Also I was not saying that these guys are well paid. Just that there is a way to do things. I don't beleive the way they acted was the correct one.

Lets hope this can be sorted out amicably. Last thing we need is the uk industry on strike when we have enough problems with the Italians, French and Spanish

[Final 3 Greens]

orange bubble

Disgusting. I hope she sues BA for thousands.

Not too EASY to sue airlines whoe leave you stranded, as my family and I found out to our cost at PMI a few years ago when a certain Luton based airline did it to us.

[G fiend]

nicecsd...like I said earlier...there is no such thing as an 'illegal' strike, people are allowed to withdraw their labour in a dispute. You condemn them for taking an extreme step...without asking why they did so.

I keep saying it, and I will keep saying it...these are ordinary people like you and me...and I'm sure it takes a lot for these ordinary people, to take action like this...I believe that they took this action because thay felt they had no other choice...the postings from anti-ice and aeroflirt seem to back this up.

I cannot and, will not, condemn someone for standing up for themselves.

I will condemn those who demonise without knowing the full facts and backround

[interestedparty]

Well, everybody has sounded off, some taking immoderate views and some not. But when all is said and done, the management are running the business, they presumably foresaw the problems they might run into by forcing though changes, and not ensuring the workers were in the main content.
People don't go on strike for fun, but because they have a grievance.
The CEO should be asking the Head of HR, "why did did this happen, and who is going to pick up the bill"?
Customers are not stupid, there are alternative carriers, and they will use them.

[Anti-ice]

Trust you have never seen 'airline' then orange-bubble ?

Now theres a few v unhappy customers on a DAILY basis.:)

[nicecsd]

I never argued the reason/s behind the industrial action.
I just find it irresponsible if not immoral the way it was actioned and the known and unquantified suffering that followed that action.
We have proper channels for arguying disputes etc etc and even a stressed- out underpaid workforce should adhere to the rules.
This law of the jungle wont solve any disputes and if encouraged at the end we wont have any disputes to argue about :sad:

[flyingdutchman]

Remember our good friend 'Joyce Tick' who was so outraged as his/her daughter had to delay the start of her hols ?

Is this the same 'Joyce Tick' who earlier proclaimed:


Joyce Tick
Just another number

posted 6th February 2002 10:10 ___ _ _ __ _
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey- I'm a Tug Operative and I object to being called a pushback driver and accused of being paid 60k.

I would go on strike if they reduced my pay to that level.

I think we should be told, 'Joyce'.

:ok:

[LatviaCalling]

I posted earlier on this thread about Ronald Reagan's wholesale firing of the ATC in the U.S. and there was no mercy except for the few hundred who stayed on the job. Much later there was a relaxation on rehiring, but many were too old to come back.

If any of you are interested in taking a closer look at the American dilemna -- the miscommunications and other important issues -- please click on the following URL. It seems to me that the BA action and the PATCO action are very parallel.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/journals/EH/EH37/Pels.html

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Peepeerune suggested that pilots in other companies would understand what he meant by pilots treating BA like a flying school.
I am a pilot with a direct competitor of BA; I don't understand it at all- other than that he is trying to be abusive.

[Neo]

nicecsd -

Oh please come to your senses - this wasn't famine in Ethiopia or ethnic cleansing in the Balkans so it hardly qualifies as "unquantified suffering".

Perhaps you should have argued the reasons behind industrial action - there are usually very good reasons, otherwise people wouldn't risk their jobs.

Walking out on unofficial action isn't immoral in the case of check-in staff; they're not in the middle of life saving surgery or fighting a fire. Besides, they probably did stick to the rules.

You say the law of the jungle won't solve any disputes, and you're right - now go tell airline management - maybe they'll listen to you. BA management certainly seemed to be conspicuous by their absence and were rightly perceived by the travelling public as being to blame.

[stormin norman]

250 BA managers STILL sitting at home on full pay whilst they find new jobs.

Its actually 320, some on £50,000+ pa while the rest of the staff work there b.....s off.

320 staff working in checkin during the summer months would
make a hell of a difference.

[Land ASAP]

Anti-Ice
I just thought you'd be better off knowing that
Over 800 Co-Pilots took a pay cut at British Airways with this 'new deal', the money they 'lost' was syphoned into the pay of Captains and Direct Entry Co-Pilots. Overall the budget remained the same (according to both our Union and Management)
Until we reach the limits of legal Flight Duty Periods, any extra hour that we work is paid at the huge rate of £2.50/hr, after which the CAA will not let us fly. This is a huge disappointment after being awake for 24 hours, when you could earn at least another fiver before you fall asleep at the controls.
There is no-one better placed to assess the airline as a whole, without the fog of 'incentive pay' than us pilots. We regularly position through terminals 1 and 4 and sit by passengers who give us their two-penneth view of the 'state of BA'. We also (quite obviously, sorry), see how the airside game is being played by Engineering, Baggage-Handling, Tug Operatives :) and Dispatchers. We (With around 20 exceptions in 3500) will always, ALWAYS go that extra mile. We are confused that this strike goes under the title of "Being asked to work for when you're payed to". I have a duty week of around 55 hours coming up, and I reckon that is what I will work. May be a few minutes less, perhaps a few hours more, but I will SWIPE in and SWIPE out when I'm dropped off. Wass da problem eh?
I do concur with your theories about mis-management. BA has a wondrous bully culture that is mainly rewarded with promotion. The worst pilots I have ever flown with were managers, mind you the best I've flown with are managers too. We got rid of 30% of them post Sept 11th and the scary egos were flushed down the loo (with a few exceptions).

Anyway, the reponse, as a thousand others have said before, did nothing for the company, their colleagues and most importantly the customers. The action will quite likely result in the implimentation of the aforesaid 'attendance management tool' regardless. The Director of Customer Services will remain sipping his Frappuchino on the 'Streets' of Waterside, working out how he can train 300 A7 pay graders who play golf everyday on full pay whilst doing the "Teach Yourself Amadeus Reservations" CD Rom on their company Dell Laptop.

The Union reps are big boys and girls who have big toys like email and TXT message chain letters that can muster up strike action LEGALLY. They have screwed their members and all the rest of us with it.

[dontdoit]

To all those who are supporting this "strike"...THINK:

Airline goes bust.....checkin operatives out on their a***s or working for McD's in Staines @ £4.50/hr.....cabin crew working for any other airline at "Market Rate" (50% pay cut at least).....still support the "strike"????

[Anti-ice]

Points taken LandASAP , at least we agree on one thing/certain building,anyway ;)

You say 'There is no-one better placed to assess the airline as a whole' in terms of your terminal / onboard contacts leaving you well placed to get an overview of peoples perceptions of BA.
Accepted ,but please dont forget we see the returns on 20 Questionnaires per day / YourThoughts cards / and of course numerous incidental requests/comments/conversations inflight.

If you are inferring by saying that 'all 3,500 of you go that extra mile' , that other frontline staff don't, then you are not as 'in touch' as you may think.By any standard.
Numerous numerous changes have been made and many frontline staff have surrendered many many previous work ideals and still achieved a high level of service.
Even management have acknowledged that once or twice:uhoh:

Cabin crew alone :
Less crew onboard (proposed up to 50%)
Less Resources/Equipment (Much less)
Increased service routines
Higher customer expectations
Increased hours through rostering
Less / Zero likelihood of achieving leave / leave availablity
Everyone co-operated to achieve this and ALL went that extra mile.

All coupled with the stress of high profile security implications, and job security .(Like all other airlines i am sure).


But the latest phase/wave of critical crewing levels and pay/hours proposals has , quite literally , (sadly as we have seen) pushed people over the edge.

It needs someone to come into BA ,recognise ALL aspects / points of view , and take an evenhanded approach to the recourse of the situation .

It's not about people being greedy = They are not even asking for anything = It's about fairness and what is right.

It's highly regrettable that this ever happened , but i think you'll find the staff had no option once pushed so far.

We are talking about colleagues of yours on significantly lower pay who are under the threat of their T&C's being eroded to intolerable levels.

As for other staffs views of the recent pilots pay review - most were led to believe (like LH) that you would strike if you didn't get what you wanted !
And many of your F/C colleagues have gladly told other BA staff 'how much (sometimes , significantly)better off they are' !
So please don't shoot the messenger.

[Tandemrotor]

Anti-ice

I genuinely don't want to get into a slanging match with you, but you should be aware that a very sizeable number of co-pilots (possibly a majority) have taken a pay CUT as a result of their new pay deal!

You probably appreciate that the smug g*ts shouting their mouths off at how well they are paid, are just the kind of folk that neither you NOR I wish to be sitting next to for 8 or 9 hours at a time! However, it sounds like YOU have a choice!!!

It is a sad reflection that, a walkout planned (and yes, I mean, planned!) by a tiny minority of staff results in various other unconnected groups of staff 'slagging' each other off!!

But if you will allow me to defend my colleagues: Nigels are paid 'market rate' - but we can prove that we are more productive than 'market'. How many other groups of staff can say that!

To return to the specific issue of this irrational, and some may say, hysterical, act of irresponsible vandalism:

It is a VERY widely held misconception that BA cannot, or will not, go bust!!

If it does, all these concerns we have heard from previous posters about 'intolerable pressures' and inability to make mortgage payments, will simply be so much dust in the wind.

Those people seeking to work beyond 55, will have no choice from their new employers, or their bank managers! Welcome to the brave new world, from which you appear to be so very cosseted!

Strangely, the people likely to do 'least worst' out of such a collapse, are the very people who appear to generate so much envy.

Those people currently being paid 'market rate!'

Anyone who cheers at the prospect of an empty aeroplane is an imbecile!

It seems we employ rather too many!!

[White Knight]

As an ex-employee - managed to leave after the shortest while possible - I still though hold a good number of shares in BA and wish to see them do well. Wildcat strikes are NOT acceptable. You do not treat your customers with contempt which this very definately is. Whatever your salary may be and however meagre it may appear to be these passengers are the reason you get a paycheck at the end of every month.
Which moron ranted on about distress and hardship -try visiting the third world some time heh !!
The whole damn lot should be sacked and sued for lost revenue

Antiice - There are ways and means to have a disagreement with management, unions and ballots etc. How can you condone this type of action ?

[Jet II]

With all due respect to Tandemrotor and Land ASAP, could we stop the thread creep into yet another whinge on how badly paid the flight crew are.


Getting back to the real issue - I see that the management are sticking to their guns about imposing the new T&C's without agreement from the staff. The main unions involved have said that strike ballots will be called if the company goes ahead - also the possibility of more unofficial stoppages continues.

Is it only me, but for the past 4 days I have seen nothing of any senior management in the media or on the shop-floor in the Terminals. On the news last night there seemed to be more police patrolling the terminal than management. I would have thought that all the senior management, Skippy included, would have been out and about trying to placate the customers - instead they all seem to be holed up in Waterworld afraid to put their head above the parapet.



Tandemrotor

just one last thing


Strangely, the people likely to do 'least worst' out of such a collapse, are the very people who appear to generate so much envy.

I assume you are talking about flight crew - there are many jobs out there that pay around the same as check-in staff receive, are there that many airlines recruiting that pay Captains 120k and F/O's 90k?

[ojs]

I think part of the problem here is one of perception...

... Not everyone who works in Waterside is a manager, or highly paid; and if you are a manager you're not always going to be inept, and out of touch with what the "workers" are thinking...

... If you don't work on the front line (ie cust serv, f/crew, c/crew, res etc), then that doesn't mean that somehow you're not contributing to the success of the airline...

... And almost everyone seems to think that it's only their department that's suffered with job cuts...

The fact remains that right across the airline there are groups of people making sacrifices and who are being paid below market rates. It's the reality of BA today.

I just think people should remember this when they feel hard done by. Yes, 320 more staff would have made a difference on check-in this summer at T4, but the £20,000,000 + the strike has cost would also make a difference too.

[G fiend]

White knight- there are indeed ways and means to have a disagreement with management...but these require management to buy into the process.

I don't work for BA, so I cannot claim to know the full story, but I do work in the industry not so very far away and I do know the reputation that some BA managers have- and it's not impressive.

Seems to me that this action is what you get when management don't communicate or deal with situations effectively. Call me Mr repetetive- but I don't believe that normal, rational people take such extreme action unless they feel that they have no other option.

Militancy within the union movement is generally dead and buried, and no-one will mourn it's passing. But people now are standing up for themselves- and that is to be welcomed...but it is not militancy.

We are in a new century- one where the most successful companies are the ones that know the value of their greatest resource, and how to get the best out of them. They also know that the greatest qualities for a manager are leadership and integrity.

I'm not sure that we've seen that in this dispute.

[aeroflirt]

Having read these posts , it seems to me that there are some extremely intelligent , articulate people working for BA. Wouldn't it make more sense to begin discussing what we can ALL do collectively to help make our company a happy place to work at again and start throwing up some sensible ideas about how to win back customer confidence.
The strike happened . It's done now . It can't be taken back. Pointing fingers and arguing amongst ourselves about who is the most worthy is a waste of the considerable minds that contribute to this board and must make us look rather childish to the rest of the public.
Come on guys , let's leave the internal politics and one upmanship alone and concentrate on keeping our jobs and pulling together as a team.

Peace !

[BRISTOLRE]

The situation has still not been resolved and more (this time official) strike action is looming. We are not out of the woods yet with this.

From very reliable sources, very soon there is possibly going to be another "all-out" depending on meetings and/or/if the swipe cards are implemented as planned.
Chris.

[AJ]

Would anyone care to post information on hours and wages worked by ground staff ? (How about basic hourly wage and typical daily timetable) ?

If there aren't any 'typical' hours, at least post what you might get asked to work, and what you might expect to get paid.

I'm sure it'd be very instructive!

At STN, Groundstar/Servisair (which together handle most of the low-cost ops) employees get around 5.80/hr (sorry, don't have the 'pound' sign) and shifts range from 0400 to 1100, 1100 to 1800, 1800 to 2300 (+ overtime when something goes wrong, which does happen from time to time).

Or 11,000 pound/annum (pro rata).

Any takers? You could earn well over 16,000 as CC with Ryanair.....

[Rocket Scientist]

So where is Skippy?

Other boards suggest he went to HKG on Saturday night.......with Cathay!Perhaps his staff travel concessions are better with them. Either that or he daren't face his frontlibne staff at the moment!:confused:

[Land ASAP]

Anti Ice

Thankyou for your measured reponse. I also accept my involvement in thread creep and apologise for that. Back to the matter in hand......

I urge all those involved in Customer Services to email, petition or speak to their representatives and state that their response must now be that of negotiation. Solidarity has been shown and the industrial muscles were not just flexed but given steroids last Friday.
Ask for assurances from your managers about the system that caused all this. If they cannot give these assurances then you are all set up to destroy BA, much to the chagrin of the rest of us. But I can accept that. British Airways mark 2 would be a leaner more profitable company. I would suggest that the employee contracts dished out after liquidation, for the gaping whole that existed post collapse, would be paltry compared to what we have now. Not only that, 3 months of debt would exist for all lucky enough to be re-employed so we would face 2 options, Poor Credit ratings or unemployment.

Company pride and loyalty has been destroyed as in most other British Companies by the mechanisms of Harvard School business practice. It is outdated but relentless and unless we storm the heart of Corporate Governance the whole world will disappear up its a*se in an Orwellian version of Feudal haves and have nots. I'm in agreement with the previous thread writer who appears to have correctly assessed that whilst the "Fat Cat" mechanism of short term incentive pay (combining employee salary budget cuts with their inversely proportional share option schemes) may help with the expenses section of the annual Profit & Loss report. It doesn't seem to recognise the reducing revenue as a response to it. Whilst morale and customer satisfaction remain unquantifiable (stick those surveys in the bin - they will do more good) the management practices that were appropriate in the first 3 years after privatisation are now destroying most companies in Britain. BA are not quite crippled with this problem but their crutches are in need of a bit of wood preserver by way of 3 things.
Spend 2 years fixing Senior Manager pay to the results of the employee opinion surveys using year '0' as the bench mark for improvement.
Manage by Adult-Adult negotiation rather than imposition and response
Finally, and contentiously, get rid of the employees (not managers) who ruin it for the rest of us. The colleagues who don't care for their colleagues when they go sick all the time when it suits them, because were it not for these individuals we'd probably not be having this conversation right now.

[cumulo-granite]

My apologies if this has already been covered (poor connection, wouldn't manage to read all 14 pages of this thread), but will this general issue in any way start to affect LGW as well? So far it seems that staff there have kept their 'noses the grindstone'.

In fact, is this also a system which the newly (well new-ish anyway) formed BA CitiExpress also uses.... or is this simply a BA LHR issue?

Let's hope it's resolved as soon as possible - if not for BA, then for all the holiday-going public (including me...:(

CG

(Edited for spelling ):O

[lizardlikeme]

Off at a slight tangent, but does anyone know what the compensation procedures are for Pax who were involved - on friday night, instead of flying LHR - MAN, I ended up on virgin trains instead, and resulting taxis etc cost a fortune:{

[NigelOnDraft]

Lizard...

From www.ba.com:

Refunds and expenses
All refunds and expenses are available by sending original receipts and tickets to the following address; British Airways Customer Relations, PO Box 5619 (S506), Sudbury, Suffolk CO10 2PG.
Outside the UK click here for details of your local BA office.

NoD

[ILS27LEFT]

I have seen many messages incorrectly mentioning the same working conditions for flying crew (all of them) and ground staff.
The salary levels are definitely different and the scale of this gap is huge.

This is why it might be difficult for a member of Cabin crew, let's say a CSD on an old contract of around 35K basic, which means a net pay per month, after allowances, of around an average of 3500K in hands, against a Gross average of around 15-16K on the ground, meaning a net of around 700-800 pound a month for the average ground agent.
This difference is huge guys!

This is the main issue here on this forum, and this is why we see people deciding to go on strike, and at the same time we see other BA staff disagreeing with this strike.
You have to look at the wider scenario: the changes that Management wants to implement on the ground must be seen in this specific low "salary" context, and not in a £3500K a month context.
Nobody dreams to go on strike if salary is good and conditions are great. Please!

My figures are unofficial, but I believe them to be quite realistic as they have been given to me by real Ba staff on the ground and on the air.

Thank you.
I think now the argument is a bit clearer and this helps to understand the different point of views.

[GS-Alpha]

You said it yourself - "let's say a CSD on an old contract of around 35K basic". The new contracts are nothing like that - you need to compare like with like surely?

BA would probably think it would be great to remove all these CSDs onto the new contracts, but that would be an incredible drop in terms and conditions which would make what you guys are mad about seem insignificant.

All I am saying is that flying crew on the new contracts do not earn the fortunes you suggest.

[Paterbrat]

ILS It still begs the question unfortunately of why different pay for different jobs should create bad feeling within BA. The Prime Minister probably doesn't get as much as Elton John, should he? With respect if a counter employee doesn't get as much as cabin staff then it is their own job selection that has created the difference. If you begin comparing apples with apples and the BA staff who walked away from their jobs were being paid well under the industry level for their type of job it would be slightly more understandable. The talk of intolerable pressure applies as much to the counter staff of any other airlines? passengers who walk up to a BA counter are the same cross section that walk up to many other airlines counters in Heathrow terminals.
Millitancy/standing up for oneself? seems that sort of comment a millitant might use to describe his actions. Don't think it has entirely died out G Fiend.
Sawing the branch upon which one is sitting is the image brought to mind by this latest action, a small problem being the others sitting alongside who would rather the eager beaver with the saw desisted.

[Rocket Scientist]

I don't know why you chose to compare a CSD's salary against an average ground workers salary. Please compare like for like, if that's possible in this case.

Your example is not a good one, as neither the job specification, experience, length of service or levels of responsibility are comparable.

I believe that CSDs on longhaul make up only 6% of the workforce, and many of them will not be earning £35k+ basic.

If you must, why not compare the ground staff salaries to that of a considerable number of main crew on the 'new' contract? Their basic salary is £9000 average, eaning £1500 on a really good month, including allowances.

Anyway, I wasn't aware that earnings were the main issue in this dispute?

[ILS27LEFT]

This dispute has got nothing to do with salaries, we all know this, but my post was needed in here as I have seen too many pilots and cabin crew in this forum, quite astonished because of this strike: they should talk face to face to the ground staff at LHR or even try only one day to work with them, and then you would all understand the reasons behind this strike.

I know well that new contracts for Cabin Crew are lower than old contracts but BA Cabin crew are still paid above average, if compared to other UK carriers.
It is BA ground staff that is underpaid, if compared to equivalent jobs on the ground. This is why, I repeat, when you overstretch your staff to the limit, any restrictive measure "against" the staff is normally interpreted by this as an "insult" and even if I am not ground staff, I have to support them during this industrial dispute.
I don't see how I could not, especially when I have seen nobody from the "Board", no even one Manager on the ground facing these angry and anxious passengers. Easy to understand why: it is a very hard job!...and because of this they should be motivated and well paid. I do not think this is happening nowdays.

Thanks.

[pipersg]

Listening to the views of passengers stranded outside T4 on ITV News, I cannot believe the sheer stupidity of those responsible for this unofficial strike action.

But is it stupidity? Is it truly beyond the realms of possibility that one or more of BA's struggling competitors may have somehow cajoled the staff into an action which is going to be truly devastating to BA?

Is it not interesting that this started in the Central T1/2/3 area where most of BAs competitors are based and then went over to T4?

Probably a product of my imagination but it only takes one spark to light dry tired grass!

Just to add my tuppence worth, I think BA management should sack every single man jack that walked out, there are plenty of fine people itching for a chance to work under the conditions these people have. You are quite within your rights to sack these people and replace them with people who actually want to work!

[slingsby]

Wrong. very very wrong. To just walk out and leave hundreds of thousands stranded, not good business sense by all concerned. Ba have been branded as unreliable now IMHO, who would want to book their holiday/business trips with an airline that may not operate even within the bounds of probably every airline/IATA/ICAO etc agreement going. Whether you like it or not, from the meekest wheelchair pusher to the senior management, you are all responsible for making the airline work, if a decision or working practice is introduced, it won't be on a whim, it will have long reaching plans and expected results. If you don't like it or the way it affects you, yes then approach your union and air your greivences, don't stab the entire airline and passengers (your wages) in the back. Some attitudes I observed in T3 on saturday were astonishing, rude and curt leaving both children and adults crying. We had 40+ pax transferred to our flight on saturday, by my calculations, thats £40K of revenue to my airline. Keep going and you'll have my company out of the red very soon.

[Gouabafla]

I'm just a passenger/SLF but I want my trip to be as smooth as possible so I take appropriate action. I take a good book to read, I arrive on time and I'm polite and friendly to the staff I deal with, on the premise that they will then be polite and friendly to me.

Airline travel will never be fun, there is too much waiting around and standing in queues for that. But, with a bit of thought and a good attitude, the experience can be improved greatly.

Over the last few days, I've added another precaution: if there is an alternative, I won't book with BA. Since most of my flying is to CDG, FRA and various places in the US, I normally have lots of alternatives and my executive club card will stay in my wallet. Delays for weather, repairs, even (dare I say it) strikes are all part of life for the traveller - you learn to deal with it. But a mass walk out with no notice is something else - I'm not prepared to risk my time, energy and stomach acid with an airline where that happens - sorry guys.

Does it matter that one bald, middle aged guy will be taking his laptop on and off AF and BMI flights in future?

[Paterbrat]

Having passed through T4 recently a number of times on positioning and leave flights, I have always tried to travel BA if I can, I would say ILS 27 that some of the counter staff have been pleasant and helpful, some unpleasant and unhelpful. I, much as Goubafly and no doubt many others, always try to be as pleasant as I can, but people are people and everyone has a less than perfect day. What I can say is that when passengers start to get agitated it is indeed a bad situation and having a strike in a very busy period is bound to have agitated them not a little. Then having stoked up a firestorm you wonder why it would be intimidating to get in there and tell them nothing can be done for them?
Poking a bee swarm with a stick and then remarking that they seem bad tempered is what was happening then, and it does not happen every day.
Interesting your comment that it has nothing to do with salaries???? my comment was because you had brought up the massive difference surely! Besides there are many work sectors that have to deal with agitated and excited people, if they all walked out because they felt agrieved there would be anarchy.

[Point Seven]

It's been said before but I feel that it needs reinforcing.

If you want to strike then that is FINE - NO ONE minds a workforce striking - it is one of the few remaining courses of action that people have to stop them from being ridden roughshod by company management.

BUT JUST STAGING AN IMPROMPTU WALKOUT WITH NO WARNING IS NOT RIGHT.

IT WILL NOT HELP THE WORKERS CAUSE, in fact quite the contrary. The media and public opinions are now both against the workers who staged the walkout. If they had taken a ballot then gone out on strike, travellers would have been warned and could have taken preparation to avoid the upheaval, and the press would have been alerted to the plight of put upon staff at BA (who the press love to shoot at). Newspaer reports would have been good and they would have garnered public sympathy. Now, I'm sad to say, by spitting the dummy they've alienated everyone.

By all means rally against a tyrannical management if they're doing you over, but do it properly. PLEASE.

P7

[Jack The Lad]

Well summed up Point 7

and I'll add my bit...due to the irresponsible behaviour of those concerned, without any concern for their employers (the ones that pay their salaries each month) or their CUSTOMERS (more importantly, the ones that enable their employers to pay their salaries) they should all be sacked for gross misconduct! Sacked on the spot, without any compensation or representation.

You think thats hard? Take a look at the video footage and see what they put all their customers through. How long do you think it will take all the 'responsible, customer orientated employees' to win back the suport you have all unilaterally lost in this unofficial dispute? A VERY LONG time, is my estimate. You have undermined your own jobs and jeopardised those of the responsible people that previously regarded you as colleagues. Shame on you all.

I hope BA survives this and I'm sure they will, but in a very different and slimmer form. Don't blame me; you were the ones that signed your own 'death warrants'!

[PAXboy]

If the folks would like to know how the conversation about BA has spread way beyond the cameras at LHR ...

This afternoon (22nd) I was attending a funeral at The Chilterns Crematorium in Amersham, Buckinghamshire. As I was walking back to my car, I overheard a small group talking about the situation. I could not linger to hear more but people were speaking in tones of shock that such a strike could take place. As I reached my car I heard, "Well, Richard Branson gets my vote."

[jau]

To be honest I have not read through all 15 pages of this, it would take too long!
But I would like my say. The reason that PSU walked out was not just because of the swiping in/out system like the media are saying. It is because of the compulsory shift changes. How would you like to be told on friday your shift changed from wednesday to monday and you don't have a choice? What if You spent £100 on theatre tickets with your family? Tough. Booked a weekend away with your friends? Tough. Promised your child that you would take him out? Tough. You get the point.
PSU have tried to tell the managers there feelings, they have not listened. Also, how would you be liked to be sent home on a moments notice without pay because the company does not need you that day?
what about Rod taking a £50,000 pay rise and then catching the next plane to Hong kong right in the middle of this crisis?
The company treat PSU like dirt, what goes around comes around. These people do not want anything more than to be treated like proper human beings. They love their job and the money is not the issue.

HOWEVER, they certainly have not won public support over this, but how else do they get managment to listen? Would a legal strike have the same effect? I don't know. They shouyld have tried that corse of action first maybe.
Well, thats my point of view.

[dontdoit]

jau << What if You spent £100 on theatre tickets with your family? Tough. Booked a weekend away with your friends? Tough. Promised your child that you would take him out? Tough. You get the point.>>

My sister had actually done all three last weekend and thanks to you pack of s***s missed out on all three as well. You do not deserve to have a job, and thanks to your crass stupidity I don't think you will have one for too much longer. As you say, tough!

[ojs]

Jau,

I take your point, but the latest BA press release (http://www.britishairways.com/press/) says:

"The airline has guaranteed that ATR will not be used as a way of introducing annualised hours"

Now does that mean that:

a) BA managers are lying;
b) Check-in staff know something BA doesn't?

[Jet II]

ojs

Now does that mean that:

a) BA managers are lying;
b) Check-in staff know something BA doesn't?


A better question would be - Why do the staff no longer trust the management?

If ATR is just another method of clocking in, why does it have facilities for Annualised Hours built in and why are the company spending millions introducing this system at a time when we are cutting spending in every other area?

The old system of manually clocking in has worked for years - is now the best time to spend money on something that is only an 'update' of the old system?

[norodnik]

So what happens next ??

The talks have broken down, are we set for a summer of discontent ?

I know little of the actual situation but it seems clear that someone is angling for a fight. With the state of the industry I would be careful of being so militant.

Working in the IT industry as I do now, I can tell you life outside is tough. Hundreds of thousands of IT workers have lost their jobs, most have no choice but to take huge salary cuts and retrain.Everyone else is living in fear of the next round of cuts. These workers do not have customers to hold to ransom, they get fired if they complain.

Its called a recession, and in times like these the workers have to put up and shut up.

With the state of the airline industry, its clear that the current course of action is crass stupidity. For sure try and negotiate, but if the strikes continue, there will be a whole raft of redundancies, in every dept.

Look at the miners, the steel workers, etc, when you hold no cards you lose.

QED

[Taildragger67]

Been using swipe cards since 1989. The sky remains generally blue and firmly overhead. Oh, and I hear the reports are correct - the twentieth century has finished.

Doubtless there's more to it but most of the public will regard this as sheer, bloody-minded petulance. And as has been seen in many an industrial dispute, lose public support and the battle is a lot harder.

That said, BA mgmt lost a great opportunity to hit the airwaves with a charm offensive over the weekend. Another mil' or two on refreshments for the waiting throngs and a visit by Skippy would have been worth zillions in getting the punters on-side and would have been a drop in the ocean vs. the losses now...

[Curious Pax]

I know nothing about this other than what has been put in the public domain, but turning the heat on the check in staff for all this seems unreasonable in this case. Yes, striking through legal means would have been far better, and might have preserved some public sympathy, but few people seem to be questioning the management side of things:

if they didn't see this problem coming then they are incompetent.

if they didn't see that implementing this system as the school holidays (and hence the peak season) started would leave them with bigger headaches if there was industrial action than at almost any other time of the year then they are incompetent.

if your staff are so p***ed off that they will walk out en masse then you are incompetent (as I understand it this strike had pretty much total support, which suggests that there is a lot more to it than just a few union militants as many seem to think).

if you manage by diktat then you will get similar in return - if you try and treat people as grown ups then you may get the same in return. For people who will state that it is managements job to manage, and everyone elses job to do what they are told, try and remember that managing people is about encouraging them to give you 110% effort in achieving your aims, not about high-handed dictatorship! It will lead to your people trusting you, which will mean that in situations (of which this may be one) where there is suspicion of an action being the thin end of the wedge, you are much more likely to get the benefit of the doubt.

However, to the casual bystander it would appear that BA management may be deliberately driving things down the strike route, suggesting an ulterior motive. This is reinforced by the reports that yesterdays negotiations didn't lead to BA giving an inch, and they ended with BA stating that this new system would still be implemented at 12pm today. It doesn't take a clairvoyant to see when the next strike is likely to start!

Many contributors to this thread have suggested that taking action at the moment is crazy due to the state of the airline industry, and they may well be right. However this should not give management carte blanche to impose whatever they like - there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

'Divide and rule' seems to be alive and well at BA judging from the response of some of the flight crew. Perhaps one of them could tell me what the reaction would be if BA announced today that as flight crews' monthly rosters are resulting in less than optimum staff utilisation, from next week rosters will be issued on a weekly basis the day before they start?

[Anti-ice]

An informed and balanced post CuriousPax .

Should people just be completely walked over and be treated abhorrently ? NO.

Its one day out of some peoples lives (v much regretably)- its the REST of their lives for them.
I get the impression that the ground staff hated walking out , but really were pushed to no alternative.

[Notso Fantastic]

Curious Pax......you're not just a 'curious pax', are you? You sound like someone with very much an axe to grind. Got a relation in check-in? Friend? I don't think that was balanced at all-depends where your sympathies lie, doesn't it, Anti-ice!
It is a fact that flying staff have been working this 'swipe in' system for getting on to 8 or 9 years. What I see is an illegal wildcat strike targeting our customers. As a very long service employee who has spent his whole career working completely loyally for the good name and benefit of BOAC and BA, along with the vast majority of employees, I deeply resent the damage these people have done to the company and the whole business. We shall be paying for this for a long time to come. I think they have sealed their doom.

[DISCOKID]

No wonder customers are not being very supportive of BA staff.

BA have given assurances that staff will not be sent home and yet the union is planning further action.

Why is automatic clocking on and off such an issue - other BA staff use the system (as do many other modern organisations)

If management give a guarantee that it will not be used to send people home and bring them back again what exactly is the union striking about. They should be more concerned that their members may not have a job at all if they carry on like they have been.

To say that ATR is going to become illegal is nonsense.


(one very p*ssed off BA customer)

[GS-Alpha]

Curious Pax

If BA have not given an inch - how many inches did the union give? In fact BA have said that the swiping system will not be used in any way to affect terms and conditions - this seems like an inch to me?

The public are watching this, and for BA to say this, they will have difficulties changing their minds - unless of course their requests for changes are perfectly reasonable.

[Long Haul]

I was told today that BA has an embargo on staff travel presently. Anyone know if that includes employees of other airlines, as well?

[brabazon]

ATR was due to be introduced at midday. What's the latest?

[Notso Fantastic]

LongHaul, when there is a total embargo, there is effectively no staff travel for anyone- the staff handling it will be re-assigned or themselves on strike.

[ojs]

Jet II..

In answer to your question:

"If ATR is just another method of clocking in, why does it have facilities for Annualised Hours built in and why are the company spending millions introducing this system at a time when we are cutting spending in every other area?"

The answer is that iARM has been bought in from another software company, so the features are just those that came with it.

iARM was first mooted about years ago and with its links and feeds from all sorts of systems - it's an easier way of managing staff and absolutely in line with FSAS principles.

[Rugz]

Bringing in a system like this would enable BA to automatically model staff working pattens and effectively capacity plan for the future.

The problem with trying to use data from a manual system for capacity planning, is that the resulting reports / trends / capacity models are not available for days / weeks / months. Data received from automated systems would normally be processed overnight and resulting reports available the next day.

This would enable the proper planning of staffing requirements months in advance. The historical data used with business projections for the next 3-18 months would provide a capacity model detailing predicted peaks and quiet periods for the following 12-18 months on average. Of course, the better the software the more accurate the results.

This would in effect make it easier for BA to plan for additional staff during the busier periods and less staff in the quieter times. By this I do not mean someone works 1 hour one day then 18 the next, but would allow BA to introduce more flexible working patterns.

** These are just my views (based on my experience) as to why a company, in any service industry sector would implement such a system. This is used by many IT dependant companies and Call Centres to manage IT and staffing resources successfully **

Final thought, as the input of this data is now automated, there is no need for data entry staff to do this work. I reckon that the introduction of such a system would actually reduce certain costs.

BTW - I am not and have never been an employee of BA or any other aviation based company, before anyone makes that confusion.

[Notso Fantastic]

Lonhaul- BA staff travel now unrestricted lunchtime 23/7.

[Curious Pax]

No axe to grind NSF - I don't work in the industry, and have no friends/relatives at LHR. I just dislike the kneejerk reaction that in any industrial relations problem the poor put-upon management are having to deal with a load of militant lefties who want everything for nothing. I also dislike the high handed and bullying brand of management that many companies these days use, apparently including BA; and situations (which I am not sure includes this one) where unions hold companies to ransom unjustifiably.

I would have thought that as a loyal BOAC/BA employee you would have been equally disgusted at the quality of management that seems to have brought about the situation where large numbers of your customers have been horrendously inconvenienced. As I said previously I'm doubtful of the wisdom of taking industrial action in this way, but it highlights the strength of feeling that BA don't appear to have done anything about. PS: Any thoughts on the last question in my previous post?

Rugz: most people in most companies would agree with your analysis of the usefulness of the new system, but when you have a company where morale is as bad amongst employees as it seems to be in this group then mistrust and suspicion, rather than trust in management reassurance, is usually the order of the day.

GS-Alpha: no idea in terms of inches given - as I stated I was merely quoting reports. If BA gave none, then I suspect the unions didn't either, but someone's got to make the first move and show that they want to take things forward. At the very least it is a PR blunder, as it makes BA seem intransigent, and it is them rather than the unions that will take the brunt of passenger kickback.

[Notso Fantastic]

<I would have thought that as a loyal BOAC/BA employee you would have been equally disgusted at the quality of management that seems to have brought about the situation where large numbers of your customers have been horrendously inconvenienced.> I am not over-impressed by the quality of our management, but there is an established industrial relations framework, and it was not the management walking out that inconvenienced people so badly and dragged my companies name in the mire. Pilots haven't always had especially good relations, but I have never in 32 years been called to withdraw my services because that is not how you negotiate.
As to hypothetical questions about what if pilots were rostered thus, our rosters are confirmed on a monthly basis confirmed about a week before they start, with a proportion on reserve not knowing until minus 2 hours throughout their month. Not so far off your scenario, so your point?

[GwynM]

Having commented back on Friday, (page 1 or 2), I've been reading the thread since then. There seem to be two prevalent views:

1...the staff who walked out should be lined up against a wall and if not shot, then fired with no compensation for (ruining BA's reputation / inconveniencing passengers / standing up for themselves / choosing the time when you wanted to travel) - delete as necessary.

2...the management should be to blame for provoking the staff into the action, either through incompetance or a machevelian ploy.

What few people seem to have spotted is that this walkout is just a symptom of an underlying cause. There is no point in sticking an elastoplast on a spurting artery, and the feeling I get underlying all this is that there is an underlying cause which is running far far deeper than this dispute.

So, rather than just throwing blame at everyone apart from yourselves, what are the underlying causes of this dispute? Is it company culture, the airline recession, too much competition from the LCC, or something else? What can be done to remove the cause, rather than the symptom?

As SLF, I expect to be flamed for suggesting this, but maybe standing back from it may give some perspective.

[marlowe]

Maybe B.A want conflict with groundstaff, would give them the excuse to hand over a costly service to outside contractors then B.A could just sit back make outlandish demands on that company knowing full well that if they are not met they can threaten to take the contract to someone else who will. So the whole circle continues ie. low wages long working hours excessive demands on staff because that is what you will get from a contract company who will have to cut corners and keep costs down BUT it wont be B.As problem anymore.

[Final 3 Greens]

Marlowe

Your conspiracy theory was certanly not true when I was involved in the iARM programme a couple of years ago and there are a lot cheaper ways of forcing a confrontation than implementing this approach, if a confrontation was the agenda.

Unless FSAS has dramatically altered BAs thinking, outsourcing mission critical services at LHR is a no go - although I have to say that I'm a little out of touch.

iARM was always about modernising the capability of the business with a robust application that was well proven elsewhere - which is why the particular supplier was chosen.

As others have said, swiping in and out was accepted elsewhere in the business - in fact as a conbsultant I had to do this too.

[Long Haul]

NSF,

Thanks a lot, am hoping to go to the Emerald Isle tomorrow.

[UL730]

BA has recently recruited some radical young MBA’s from a leading business school. They have persuaded the board of directors to implement Buffalo Theory. The thought process goes as follows.

A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. When the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first.

This natural selection is good for the herd because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.

In much the same way, an airline can only operate as fast as the slowest SLF. Excessive intake of SLF at peak periods, as we know, kills airlines. Naturally they attack the slowest and weakest (T1) first.

In this way, strikes eliminate the weaker SLF, making the airline a faster and more efficient machine.

That's why management always feels better after a strike.

QED: Buffalo Theory

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

To be honest I have not read through all 15 pages of this, it would take too long!
So Jau , what you're saying is you're not prepared to listen to what anyone else has to say, but we all have to listen to you? Suddenly the wildcat strike is less of a surprise. My sympathy for your position just dropped markedly.

[Paterbrat]

Having also followed the thread with interest because of various travel plans and requirement that do involve BA, I have heard the pro stikers and the cons.
Protestations of miserable working conditions, facing unruly and demanding pax, were reasons; money and swipe cards were definitely not the reason??
Union rep on tonights news wasn't so coy. Swipe cards was definitely a big issue.
It also appeared in the thread, mention of manual entry being considered as something of a 'perk' that all adds up by the end of the year.
Yes the situation is adding up. It appears that modernisation and tightening of the system is unacceptable as it threatens to do away with 'perks'.
BA is tightening it's belt along with many others in the face of the massive downturn in the travel business which has been hard hit by 9/11 a world recession SARS and general financial uncertainty. They have been fighting a long hard battle along with many other industries. Many people have had job layoffs and paycuts, but that appears not to have figgured in the plans of the strikers, who have indeed dealt BA a massive financial blow.
They do not have the support of the rest of the airline. What they are doing is ensuring the crippling of the company they work for, and jepordising the livelehoods of all BA staff. They have definitel alienated the passengers who ultimately are the reason they have a job, and whose money pays them their salaries. They have ignored the mechanisms set up to arbitrate, and have demonstrated an ignorence of todays financial picture. It is not a very good time to be endangering your jobs.
National Airlines like Swissair and Sabena have very recently gone under, others are on the brink. The job market is not good for the unemployed.
But then I am sure they thought about that, or was it just the best time in the year to make a point, just when it would be really busy and give the airline a really hard kick in the b#lls to make them sit up and pay attention?

Well it certainly succeeded in that, but who knows what else it has succeeded in doing!

[CandyBender]

Paterbrat......there is a fair amount of support for the terminal staff from across the front line of the company......the bulk of cabin crew support them (even if they don't support their methods). Much of the feeling against the check in guys has come from the support staff in the airline who must be getting pretty nervous by now as very few more staff & resources can be cut from the front line. It is high time that the number of support staff within BA was addressed; we have far more support staff per aircraft than AF & LH before evn considering the LCCs. In cabin services management want to reduce cabin crew levels on aircraft & cut service further. We're talking 3 crew on an A320, 11 on a 777 etc etc.........yet recently another tier of management was introduced within the department from 4 to 5.

[Jack The Lad]

Candybender

Anyways, forget what your perception of the internal attitude is within BA (although I don't share your view across the board). The relevant issue is what everyone OUTSIDE of BA think...and I say it again....most importantly your CUSTOMERS...You know, those people that buy the airline's services and in doing so expect SERVICE...something they sadly are not getting right now?

You and your perceived colleagues can be as 'lovey dovey' with each other as much as you like, but without a job or without an employer to pay your way it will be a bleak wake indeed at the end of a dole queue! Ever sat in one of the DHSS offices waiting for a handout?...not that one would be deserved in this case.

Your customers, the media and just about everybody else (including a sizeable section of BA staff) have already delivered their verdict! Maybe you guys and girls have candy whatsits stuck in each ear, so as they are not listening! Earth calling mars bars comes to mind

[Paterbrat]

Candy bender, as a customer, my thoughts on the actions of the counter staff are.

Foolish.
Self destructive.
Self serving.
Bloody minded.

I hope that the airline survives.

I will continue to try and travel with BA.

I still believe that there are many staff who are proud of the airline and what it represents, though the chances of their jobs surviving have been made much harder by the selfserving actions of a few. If you don't like the job, feel that there is better elsewhere, exercise your right to leave and seek employment elsewhere, don't ruin the things for thousands of others who do want to work, and passengers who wish to travel on BA.

[nicecsd]

if you only employ partimers at minumum wage-ish conditions you wont get loyalty or willingness to understand and cooperate.
Most of the employees involved in the dispute could get a similar waged salary at Tesco,,,do they care?? Should they care??? Any attempt to change things regardless of its alleged efficiency and no change in conditions is looked at with suspicion and often with distrust...it a cultural thing.
The problem at BA is more on how things are said and actioned than what was said and the real reasons behind it.

[Paterbrat]

I've got you. Doesn't matter how sensible it is or if it makes financial sense, you have to say it nicely or we walk?

Can't travel far working for Tesco's.