New PC, just which one?

[5milesbaby]

Its about time I got rid of this old and slow thing and upgraded. However, being quite computer illiterate I have no idea whats good and whats not needed. The computer is just a personal one for 'all your homely needs' including internet, digital camera and MP3 applications.

I have seen several I like, but would like to know the difference between the Pentium 4 and Athlon processors (is there really much difference, as either would be a huge performance increase for me anyhow). Also, are all DVD re-writers still CD-RW's too, or will their individual performances always be listed?

What printers are recommended (a good inkjet seems to do reasonable photo quality) and are printer/scanner/copier all-in-ones any good?

Finally what makes? I've looked at Compaq, Mesh, Dell, Carrera, and Hewlett-Packard. Any that I should totally discount or others I should hunt for, although Apple Mac has been totally discounted, too much a windows man :sad:

All and every help is greatly apprechiated, at least to pull this techno out of the 19th Century :ok:

Cheers, 5mb

[PPRuNe Towers]

You're in the very enviable position of making a completely fresh start.

As someone who used to build 15 to 20 PC's a year I think you're missing a huge opportunity in discounting the Mac. Everything you mention plus linear digital video editing is built into every Mac. Plug in the power and the phone line/cable and it works.

The point to having a Mac is that they really are 'white goods' - like a fridge or freezer they just work while at the same time using standard PC components these days so you aren't raped when you want to add more memory or storage.

However, if you're embarrassed to be seen with a stylish and supremely effective system there's a lunatic selling modified Mac motherboards that will go into a standard PC case:} :} :yuk: :yuk: $320 if you're interested;) ;)

Regards
Rob

[Binoculars]

Forgive the cheek of somebody who's only a couple of rungs up the ladder from you presuming to give advice, but sometimes advice from a fellow dinosaur is more valuable than from the nerds who want to plug their own needs.

It is my humble opinion that unless you want to play complex games or run massive graphics programs, the bottom-of-the-line entry level computer these days provides waaaaaay more grunt than you will ever need for what you say you are after.

Entry level specs are around 256Mb RAM, 40Gb hard drive, and somewhere in the high 2Gb processor speed. (The likes of you and I will NEVER be able to tell the difference between Pentium and Athlon.) For basic processes, this is ludicrously over-equipped and has happened only because computer manufacturers persist in pushing the fallacy that you must have the latest or be out of date. This is the only way they can sell new computers.

The last thing they want is for people to realise their current computers are good for five years or more, so they keep issuing more complex software which requires more space, memory and speed to operate, but doesn't do any more than what you've got.

I have a 900 Celeron which does everything I could possibly want it to do. Internet speed has buggarall to do with processor speed and everything to do with your ISP. You will be able to store thousands of mp3's on your entry level hard drive.

Get an entry level clone from a reputable dealer, option it to your specs and be amazed at what it can do.

*dons flak jacket to cope with incoming from the nerds*

[Keef]

It's one of those "80/20" things. You can get 80% of the technology for 20% of the price. Just look at the price of 3GHz compared with 2GHz computers. The price/spec curve is linear until it gets to the stuff that wasn't around a year ago, then the price goes up like a Yak on steroids.

You probably don't *need* this Formula 1 winning performance for most of what ordinary folks do, so buy something that's about a year old tech, and you'll find you can get a pretty good box for £700 or so. Monitor is extra - CRT ones are now very cheap, the ones with flat panel LCD are expensive. If you've got room for a CRT one...

DVD writers do CD writing and reading. But do you *need* to write DVDs? I find I can get all the stuff I need onto the occasional CD.

I built a "state of the art" machine about four years ago (at considerable expense). It's now a museum piece, but it still does all the things it did then, and it's more than adequate for my needs.

What you will need is USB (for the digital camera and the ADSL modem and maybe the printer).

Printers - inkjet (or bubblejet) are fine. Best to get the ones with three separate colour ink cartridges cos that way you don't waste half the ink in the thing. Printers are cheap, ink absurdly expensive.

Laser is excellent if B&W will do - quality's sharper, and damp doesn't make the print go foggy. I've got both, laser for serious stuff, bubblejet for colour pix and stuff.

Now software - that's a whole new ballgame. There is freeware stuff out there that does almost everything Mr Gates's bloatware does. If you have ADSL, you can download it and try it in profusion.

[longarm]

Had PC's since the eighties and have used every version of windows since 3.1. Thought I was a total windows man. Bought a Mac Laptop a couple of months ago (at the wifes suggestion)and I will never go back. Makes PC's look like second rate competitors, which of course I now know they are !

Now all I need to do is persuade her that a new G5 is neccessary to replace this crap desktop I'm using.

So in summary don't discount them go out and try.

[fobotcso]

I'm teetering and I'm almost convinced....

Doing a lot of Graphics and Digital Video and can get very frustrated at times.

[spannersatcx]

I bought from Carrera a few months ago, 2.8 P4 with Radeon 9700, 17in TFT, 512mb RAM, plus a few other bits and have to say so far so good (I do lots of video stuff and write to DVD's). I have to say that getting the TFT was an inspired choice, I am really impressed with it.

Printer, have used hp since I can remember, only ever had one break and that was replaced within 24hrs, they are versatile in producing good quality text docs and pics.

All in ones - not recommended, jack of all trades master of none.

Remember when reading about peoples experiences with pc's that you always hear the bad stories and hardly ever the good ones. I guess for every bad report there are 10 good ones.

Hope this helps :D

[Keef]

Number two daughter has both PC and Mac. For anything graphic, or artistic, or professional printing, she insists the Mac is the only way.

She says she hasn't turned on the PC in weeks.

[spekesoftly]

I've been using an HP PSC 950 multi-function printer (print/fax/scan/copy) for about 8 months, and it's brilliant. Very quick, easy and convenient to use, great results, and no longer is my desk littered with too many items. Also very pleased with an 18" Sony TFT monitor, and again it saves so much space.

[5milesbaby]

Well you all have certainly got me thinking, and still no nearer to making any decisions. However Rob, you'll be glad to hear I have checked out the Mac online, and then even went to a shop to fiddle with it, and haven't ruled it out totally yet!!! Still, I'm in no hurry just now, so keep it coming and hopefully I'll get it right :O

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

5milesbaby,

I look at a Mac as, a car that cannot drive on 80% of the roads. If you are just looking for surfing the net, some casual games, ripping MP3s, and editing Digital Pictures from your camera, a good PC will provide a lot better bang for the buck over a Mac.

The Best Bang for the Buck Components are:

AthlonXP 2500+
nForce2 Motherboard (Integrated GeForce4, USB 2.0, Firewire, Dolby Digital Surround Sound)
512Mb PC-2700 DRR SDRAM
80Gb 7200rpm Hard Drive
48X24X48X16 DVD/CR-RW Optical Drive
17" Flat CRT (or 19") Monitor
Optical Mouse
Logitech Z-560 400W THX Speakers

If you can come close to those components in the computer you buy, it will launch you in to the 21st century without making a huge smoking hole in your wallet.

Take Care,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Custom Computers of Naples, Inc.

[under_exposed]

Binoculars, dont sell yourself short. I make do with an 850 at home. The number of systems (including professionally used) I have seen using 10% of the power is untrue. Worst example was about 7 years ago. Very nice top of the range Tecra laptop. It was never undocked and only used to run a mainframe emulation package. A 386 would have done the job.
Once having moved to PCs from other micros I was using a 4.77 mhz with 256KB ram and Dos 2!. It really was a mistake once we reached the stage of not being able to fit the OS, application and data on the same 360KB floppy disk!

[Timothy]

Macs are fine provided that your never going to run any "out of the ordinary" specialist software.

If you are quite sure that you are going to browse the web, process words and spreadsheets, work with photos and graphics using the standard packages and stuff like that then the Mac will do you very well.

However, the moment you want a package to run your Film and TV props hire company, calculate your milk yields or book rooms in your guest house you will have a much greater choice on the PC.

This is as true for flight planning software as well. Jepp Flitestar and NavBox ProPlan, the two most popular packages, are not available on Mac. There may be something but you will not be able to choose either of the most popular ones.

So, there you have it, that's my opinion. If you are absolutely sure that it will always do what you want, get a Mac, but if you have any doubt and want to keep the options open....its got to be a PC (though it pains me to say so)

...and another thing. How useless is your PC really? Rather than starting again you might find that £35 worth of RAM and a reformat (or may £50 worth of new disk) are all you really need.

Try downloading AShampoo and seeing how much crap it clears out for you.

W

[Danny]

Naples and Collins... absolute typical bolleaux ref the Mac. It is just typical of people who have no idea about the Mac to spout off those figures such as "...I look at a Mac as, a car that cannot drive on 80% of the roads" or "Macs are fine provided that your never going to run any 'out of the ordinary' specialist software." It shows me that you have been force fed the usual diatribe by the deperately embarrased PC users brigade who are afraid to admit that the Mac is good because they have such a limited capability, run of the mill, "I follow the sheep" windoze PC!

Yes, there are one or two specialist programs such as the flight logging ones you mention that are not available for the Mac OS but so what? All you need is Virtual PC for the Mac and you can run any PC package you already have in a seperate window, including all the 'specialist' ones mentioned. Better still though, use some specialist programs available ONLY for the Mac! Virtual PC creates exactly what it says on the box. You have to load your version of Windoze up to and including MX but then it emulates a PC but with all the facilities of the Mac that are plugged into it.

I remember when Flight Sim from MS was ONLY available for the Mac as was Photoshop, Pagemaker, Illustrator and all those other famous packages. The fallacy that the Mac is somehow only 'specialist' for artsy graphics people needs to be dispelled as it is only bandied about by people who refuse to admit they wish they'd bought a Mac in the first place! :}

I can honestly say that every person I know who has moved from a PC to the Mac has said that they will never go back to using a PC. These are not luddites who know no better but long time users of Windoze systems and specialist users. The few who migrated the other way have also said how they regret the move and will be not be purchasing a Windoze PC next time they fork out.

I admit a certain amount of 'evangelism' for the Mac and I even used to work for an AppleCentre but that is because I have been using Macs since the first 128k one came out. I still have that original! :cool: When I was working for the AppleCentre, and I'm going back to the late 80's, I was involved with selling them into universities and larger corporations. I saw Macs being used in extremely specialist environments because the PC's were just not good enough and none of it was your run-of-the-mill word processing/spreadsheet/database stuff.

5milesbaby, having checked out the Mac, I hope you can have another go. Preferably try out one at a dedicated Apple dealer where the sales person knows what they are talking about and knows how to demonstrate the superb functionality. You'll get good advice on here from most people but beware of the 'nuggets' of disinformation that are occasionally thrown about by people who may not be aware that they have been duped.

Caveat emptor.

[fobotcso]

OK, OK guys I get the message; :cool: Macs are better.

But what is it about Macs that makes them better. I put that another way. Why are they better?

I'm an academic sort of chap who's studied the general subject of computing at MSc level (incomplete). Not just Microsoft stuff. So I have a keen interest in the didactic approach to deciding which is better. We know that the bit order is fundamentally different. But is there something about the benefits of "big-endian" over "little-endian" that makes the Mac superior? Is it the architecture? The quality of the OS writing?

I struggled with PhotoShop 4 on Windows NT4 and lost most of my hair doing it. Now with PS6 on Win2K I never lose a job. I can get by with VideoWave 4 too with Win2K and that's with 500Mhz and 256MB RAM. Even today the embedded software in your domestic appliances is still based on Microsoft's NT so it can't be all that bad.

Is the passion expressd by Mac devotees based on the early disasters caused by Win 95's inability to cope with 3rd Party software houses' attempts to provide software? Certainly there was protectionism in there but show me an industry where protectionism isn't rife unless policed by Government. (Memories of Defence Equipment Procurement cock-ups:yuk: )

Please convince me in a way that my pragmatism will accept. I have £1500 or more waiting to be spent on replacing my old war horse (and that's not Mistress fob).

[edit to add: PS, my comment above about Imaging and Video being at times frustrating referred only to the speed of processing and redrawing, not crashing or corrupting the data.)

5milesbaby, Great Thread; thanks for kicking it off.

[Timothy]

Danny

Someone with a different opinion to yours is not necessarily speaking b0llocks. And there may just be others who have an insightful knowledge of the computer industry, even if you consider yours unsurpassed.

OK, you have worked in an AppleCenter. I'm glad you liked it.

I am Chairman of an international group of software companies which decides on a regular basis which OSs to support on new product. In order to do this we have to we well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of MS, Mac, UNIX/LINUX and AS400, as well as the different internet technologies.

I would say that the requirement to run an emulator before you can run the bulk of the specialist software available is an error-prone kludge, error-prone for both technical and user-related reasons. (The user must learn two environments.)

You may have the opposite view...fine, let's discuss it. But let's not discuss it by announcing each other's informed opinion as b0llocks and disinformation.

One of the nice things about this forum is that people are civilised on their discussion for most the time. It would be nice to keep it so. It certainly doesn't behove you to be the one that lowers that tone.

You may be the big cheese round here, but that doesn't give you the right to be a playground bully.

W

[fobotcso]

Mr C said One of the nice things about this forum is that people are civilised on their discussion for most the time

That is almost the only reason I keep coming back to PPRuNe (plus a desire to learn while I try to help others). Pretty well gave up the Military Forum long ago for its lack of civility justified under the general description of "banter". Not all bad, but I now read only about one in ten or twenty threads.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Danny,

Sorry if I struck a nerve there.

I remember when Flight Sim from MS was ONLY available for the Mac

I had a MAC 512 with MS Flight Sim 1.0 on the Floppy. I flew the heck out of that thing. (Before I actually ever took the controls of a plane.) It was just stick drawings in black and white, but I learned a lot about flying and instruments from it. I attribute it to being able to to do everything flight wise, short of landing and communicating of course, to private pilot standards on my first flight lesson.

fobotcso,

But what is it about Macs that makes them better. I put that another way. Why are they better?

They must be better, they cost so much more than a PC! :E

When I bought my first PC after having a MAC, I really appreciated the greater level of control over your system the PC gave and I never had an interest in a MAC again. (Type A Personality I guess.)

Take Care,

Richard

[fobotcso]

Thanks Richard, a data point with a smile on its face. :) This thread is looking up again. With all that it implies, the concept of control is important when you want to go the edge of, or beyond, the envelope.

Keep off the Type A stuff. It can seriously harm you. To use your own rubric, Take Care! fobs

[Danny]

OK, I apologise for my tone in my earlier reply but it was due to raised hackles caused by the often bandied about dismissal of Macs with generic statements like "..."out of the ordinary" specialist software." Can you please elaborate exactly what you mean by 'specialist'?

Whilst I worked for an AppleCentre, I must state that I was Technical Director and was heavily involved in integrating Macs into IT depratments where they allowed individuals or more likely groups to have their own choice of computer and those wanting Macs had to be able to integrate them into the existing networks, often requiring access into mainfame systems as well as data sharing with other PC users.

What used to frustrate me then as it does now, was the pooh pooing by IT managers who refused to even consider the qualities of the Mac just because it wasn't 'Big Blue'! Nowdays, those attitudes are probably still there but I don't see them because of my career change! :cool:

If you ask me what makes Macs better then I'd have to say that the consistency of the interface when using any application. Once you learn the basics of using a Mac you can apply that knowledge to any application.

Although the interface I mention above is probably at the core of what makes the Mac so good, it is also the quality of the design that has gone into the Operating System and the hardware. The latest incarnation of the Operating System actually is running on a Unix substructure. Compare Unix to the Dos that still lies at the heart of the Windoze operating system and you have no contest.

The price of Macs is actually very competitive when you compare it to a PC. The build quality is very high but more importantly, by the time you add all the extras to a PC to bring it up to a similar spec and quality to a Mac the Mac usually wins hands down.

Whilst Microsoft has gone a long way to improve its Windoze OS and now has a much slicker interface, it is still encumbered with all the extra fat that MS insists you need... whether you do or don't.

So, when refering to 'specialist software' what exactly are you refering to? I wonder if there is a Windows program that 'emulates' a fully blown Mac OS? I usually only use my 'emulator' when I need to run a Windoze browser to check programming changes to pages on the web for compatibility. Apart from that, I have found every piece of software I need available for the Mac, including all the 'specialist' ones.

If you are trying to decide whether to upgrade to a new PC or go the full hog and convert to a Mac just ask all the pople who have migrated from the PC to the Mac why, if the Mac userbase is less than 5% of all computer users is the response so favourable for the Mac and its OS? I don't see many people advocating moving to the PC after having been Mac users all their lives. Make sure you are comparing Operating Systems properly. The latest Mac OS is OS X and the Widoze one is, I believe Winows MX. I stand to be corrected though.:uhoh:

[Timothy]

Danny

Thank you for your apology :D

I think that Flitestar and ProPlan will do well as examples of the "specialist software" I am describing.

Certainly most of the products of my own companies, which are specialist in the arts and entertainment business are designed for Windows. If we are asked to deliver on Macs, we propose Citrix (as we need a SQL Server core anyway, so we may as well use TS as well.) We have tested on Mac PC emulators and they work provided the underlying Mac has enough umph, but we don't support the environment because it introduces another layer of complexity if diagnosis is required. (Incidentally, we also don't support W95, 98 or ME, even though the software works on them, because they are crap.)

We lose very few sales through not supporting Macs. We lose more through not supporting W9x.

I think that what you maybe missed in my earlier post was that if you don't need any specialist software, I agree with you that a Mac is preferable to a PC. I reckon that LINUX is probably better as well...more stable than both PC and Mac...but suffers an even greater shortage of native software.

W

[WeatherJinx]

Some friends of mine decided to upgrade their PC from Windoze ME to XP at the end of May. Despite several visits by an 'friend who's in IT' (ahem), it's still not working...

Now, every time they visit me, they drool longingly as they play with my new 17" iMac (http://www.apple.com/imac/) and iPod (http://www.apple.com/ipod/) ;)

You see, you can spout all the techie bollox you like about PeeCees, but the Mac (especially now with OS X) has something the Wintel gang never been able to achieve - a truly beautifully thought-out user experience.

Jx
Delighted Mac (http://www.apple.com/myths/) user

[flyingfemme]

I use a 6-year-old PIII 500 with 256Mb running a stripped-down, custom installed Windows98 (2nd).
In the past year I have set up 2 desktops and a laptop for other people - all much more powerful than mine and all running XP. All 3 run slower than my machine!
I don't do heavy graphics or movies, do surf all day, every day and do WP, spreadsheets, accounts. ADSL is the greatest go-faster gizmo around (I have an internal DSL modem and share the connection with one other machine).
Do get USB ports (you don't say how old your machine is) - they are very useful.
Make sure you have a good backup method and USE IT DAILY. Then you can recover easily from any crisis.
HP make great printers - I am on my third in 14 years and only change when the technology leaps forward. Will be buying the printer/scanner/copier thing when my ink supply runs out - I think it's £99!
Don't waste your money unless there's something you really want. PCs are upgradeable........

[5milesbaby]

This is turning out good and getting all the techy stuff out that I was looking for.

At the moment I have a Tiny 30gig Pentium III early edition, Win98 SE with a cr@p set of graphics and sound, only 7gig left on the harddrive (mainly music and digi camera stuff) and a Broadband program to crash anything it likes. On top of this is connected a Palm (and all the software for normal ops and also MP3) and a scanner. In total I have a need for 4 (sometimes 5) USB ports, although not all at once but it would be nice not to keep going around the back to change leads. Having priced up upgrading the existing with compatable parts, it would just be as well to go get a new one and have it all there with a few more toys for the boys.

I have to say that at the moment the iMac is very tempting, but is competing against a Mesh 3000+ Athlon and Evesham Pent 4 2.8GB. I'm fortunately enjoying going shopping every weekend and having a play in all the shops I find on all different types of machine, better decide soon though, or I'll be needing a new window here too :uhoh:

[Timothy]

5mb

Have you thought about getting a powered USB hub (£25) and an external USB disk (£80) and shift all your media files onto that.

Get more memory (£30) and install XP (thus overcoming instability) (£50 ?)

Remember to format the disk before you install XP (do not upgrade, but dump all your data to the external drive first.

For a total investment of £185 you will be hugely better off than now.

Just a thought.

W

[PPRuNe Towers]

Fobotsco,

I've been pondering your query on the previous page and trying to think of a way to get it across when you aren't actually handling the goods so to speak:uhoh:

Try this analogy: Follow a couple of the links to the Apple hardware provide on this thread. Spend a few moments just looking at them and consider the thought that has gone into creating such consumer sculpture. The same intellect and care has gone into creating the operating system. The clever stuff is hidden - it's just supposed to be a consistent delight to use across all programmes.

As I mentioned before, everything a user needs is built in and pre-installed up to and including non linear video editing. If a DVD writer is specified you also get complete multimedia creation software as well.

The cost issue is a myth unless you steal high end music, video and DVD authoring software for a new PC:E :E

Consider this as well - all the PC crowd are sending down a barrage of buy this bit, buy that, it's rubbish if you don't fit such and such.

Compare and contrast with the Mac users - they don't tell you to buy any particular speed, configuration or form factor. It's none of their business and know you'll find the one that suits your pocket, location and needs.

What they are telling you is to buy the experience of using a Mac - they don't care which one because they're actually suggesting that you buy the OS in reality - the user experience.

That's why Mac folks never go back to a PC and also why not a single PC'er ever raves about the operating system - and I mean ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

PPRuNe Towers,

You made a very good point:

Compare and contrast with the Mac users - they don't tell you to buy any particular speed, configuration or form factor.

It really says something about the type of user that goes for a Mac vs the type that goes for a PC.

Mac users are more inclined to look at a computer as if it were a toaster. You put in bread, out comes toast and that is all they want to know about it. (I know there are power users that want to know more and do high end functions, I am talking about the Average P.D.U.)

The average PC user goes 1) low end PC due to price or 2) they go PC since they want a little greater control of they system and flexibility of hardware for the future.

Richard

[fobotcso]

Thanks Towers, Richard, MrC et al. I' really benefiting from this increasingly constructive debate.

Believe it or not I'm making notes on a big piece of paper (which, according to the first law of Making Notes on Paper will turn out to be too small) and when Summer turns to Winter over that long week-end in October we call Autumn I'll make a decision.

I've decided one thing, I'll always have a PC with the masses of kit and knowledge I have. But for the Main workhorse of Maison Fobs I could just go for the Mac.... But the G5 is awfully expensive even if those big flat screens are so sexy.

My Dentist Chum has both in his surgery and chose the Mac for home. I have to trust his judgement now, don't I...?

[WeatherJinx]

fobotsco

I'm in a similar posiion to your dentist (except probably not as loaded):uhoh:

I use both platforms at work, having to put up with a PeeCee running NT4 for most of the administrative part of my job - but the Mac has always been my personal choice for home (after all, it is my money).

As for the 'toaster' remark - nice analogy, not condescending in the slightest ;) This is the kind of thing I do on my Ethernet broadband-powered G4 iMac Toaster at home:

Web and Print Graphic Design (Quark*, Illustrator FreeHand, Dreamweaver, Flash, Director etc.)
High-end Photoshop
Web development
DV editing
Audio editing
HD Music recording
MP3 Encoding
Huge macro-laden spreadsheets
PowerpPoint (eughh!)
Reading and Writing CDs/DVDs

...and it rips through the lot of 'em like a dose of the $hits!

Jx
*Cant wait to get my mitts on Quark 6 so I can finally be all-OS X :ok:

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

WeatherJinx,

Actually the Toaster idea was from a friend of mine. He is a Mac user. He owns one of the highest of the high end Home Entertainment companies in the U.S.

Visual Environments (http://www.visualenvironments.com/about.htm)

They do all the high end home theater systems for the very affluent around the world along with the Hollywood elite.

We were talking about the some of the high end systems he was currently completed along with some of the more eccentric additions that they had to custom design. I asked him about the computer systems that he could integrate into them, and his comment was, to him a computer is nothing more than a toaster, etc.

By no means was I being condescending in the comment.

Richard