21st Jan 2002, 16:32
Virgin CC rushed with obscenely indecent haste into a lousy agreement with the company. THe consultation period was ignored. The CC chairman signed off on demotion of captains without negotiation, ballot or mandate. Not even a quorum.. . JMC managers agreed that demotion was piontless as contractrual pay could only be reduced with written consent. JMC is now pursuing demotions because Virgins Balpa CC agreed to it and have a set precedent.. . If JMC is allowed to demote captains the charter sector will create a pool of temporary captains with seasonal promotions and demotions, No security and no career prospects. We will be punished for Balpa not accepting paycuts.. . Three loud and hearty cheers for Virgin CC and chairman. NOT

21st Jan 2002, 18:55
As I see it, it's thanks to the Virgin CC I still have a job.

21st Jan 2002, 19:35

I admit that there are plenty of pilots who don't feel that the Virgin CC did enough for its members. Then there also those who would have drawing the dole had the company reduced the workforce according to fleet, however, to blame the CC in another unrelated company seems nonsensical. If the JMC deal is a bad one then surely that is for the JMC reps to renegotiate.


21st Jan 2002, 20:45
Have a look at Any Objections and you will see the company that is setting the tone for the future of pilot emplyment. The bean counters in other airlines are watching and following.Temporary commands,part time contracts,winter redundancies will become the norm particularly in the charter industry if we are not all very careful.

21st Jan 2002, 22:20
Hi crewrest, you could also say that it's thanks to Virgin CC that I'm losing my job!

After all back in October the company still wanted to hire me, give me a pay rise in January and also eat half decent food on the aeroplane.

Now I'm out of a job very soon, no payrise and the food is sh!te.

Now tell me what that 1% is for?

21st Jan 2002, 23:45
Xsimba, I guess you are a junior F/O on the A340. With a little more time with the Company and a little more seniority you might have been a junior Captain on the Classic. The original (Company) option would have involved your redundancy.. .What would your attitude be in that case?

Green Tale. It sounds like an entirely different situation. To quote BBK “If the JMC deal is a bad one then surely that is for the JMC reps to renegotiate.” . .If you had been at the meetings held by the Virgin CC you would realise that most pilots were appreciative of what the CC has done for us. You would also have heard the CC ask our opinion on a number of matters.

22nd Jan 2002, 00:54
The situation under the slime green illegitimate son of Tommy Cook is quite clear cut.There is no demotion clause in the captains contracts.Virgin can agree to go to work in Tutus,that's got nothing to do with JMC.I agree it doesn't help though.

22nd Jan 2002, 02:37
I am really glad that I don't have to rely on greentale from peterborough. It is a long time since I read such twisted logic. On second thoughts I did read some of his fairy tale wanderings not long ago, when I recall I called it sh*t stirring codswallop. The Virgin union set a precedent for JMC management! What a load of B*ll*cks. On which particular planet did BALPA refuse pay cuts? As I recall there was a recommendation not to volunteer until a quid pro quo was established, which it still hasn't. Should it be there would be no objection to recommending pay cuts, jobs for pay cuts is not a bad deal, it was never offered.

There is no mechanism for demotions within the JMC contract, nor is there a guarantee that there will never be any demotions. There is no announcement that there will be demotions, only an announcement of the method that would be used if there were to be any.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: beardy ]</p>

22nd Jan 2002, 02:46
Zeus, you may have noticed the emoticon that I attached to my posting. I have no argument with LIFO, just the way that it was implemented which could keep us occupied for days!

As for Balpa keeping us informed and asking our opinion, you are clearly dealing with a different CC. I haven't once been asked what my view was on any aspect of the redundancy process. Emails and phone calls to CC members have also elicited an unsatisfactory response - that is when I actually get a response.

The original posting at the top of this thread indicated that the agreement was reached hastily. I have no doubt that the CC were working extremely hard but the emphasis on reaching a speedy conclusion was to the detriment of a watertight policy. There are many issues that simply were not thought through, either properly or at all.

I am not seeking to blame anybody here, my original post was simply to counter crewrest's opinion, albeit slightly tongue in cheek.

However I can say that I'm disappointed that my 1% gross contribution to Balpa didn't really pay for very much help from head office. It seems to me that our CC were pretty much left to their own devices with the occasional courtesy call from faceless Balpa people.

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: xsimba ]</p>

Dan Winterland
22nd Jan 2002, 04:07
Any member of BALPA should expect a professional service for their 1%. IMHO, we don't get it. It has to be one of the most expensive unions in the country - and the worst performing. What the Virgin employees should have got was an insistance from thier representatives that the company adhered to the statutory 90 day consulatation period as laid out by the Employment Rights Act (1996) and not agree with the company that a hasty decision was necessary. Also, as over a hundred employees were to be made redundant, someone - either the company or BALPA -should have balloted the employees. This didn't happen.

The way the quick decision was steamrollered could well be used as a precedent in future redundancies in other companies. BALPA need to ensure that any company sticks to the statutory and therefore legally binding requirements of the Employment Rights Act and Trade Union and Legal Representation Act in future redundancy situation.

What do I get for my 1%. No job, and a magazine about Nigels which goes for immediate recycling. Guess how long I shall be remaining a member!

Pilot Pete
22nd Jan 2002, 04:25
Well said Diplomat.

I am also employed by jmc and so far am very impressed with the CC's moves on our behalf. They have managed to retain the moral high ground whilst conducting very reasoned negotiations with the management. I am particularly grateful to the former Chairman who had to stand down due to the relentless strain it was putting on him and his family.

As already pointed out, the jmc pilots' strength comes from their untited front and backing of our CC members, supported by a Balpa negotiator. Membership swelled post 9/11 as people realised just how vulnerable they were in a company hell bent on cutting costs and this fact has increased the bargaining power that the CC have.

They have already offset the pay cut and negotiated enhanced VR terms and career break/part time options which would not be there without CC/Balpa intervention.

I would have thought that a management model for part time 'summer only' pilots would have existed prior to anything Virgin did, but I have yet to see any indication that they are trying to go down that route.

In my short time with jmc I can safely say that my 1% to Balpa has thus far been well and truly value for money, I do agree the next few months could be another make or break for Balpa.


22nd Jan 2002, 21:46
After the sham at Virgin where we were not consulted in any way about the agreement which the cc signed I for one left BALPA by the end of the month. I shall certainly never be joining again.

In answer to the question 'What is you're 1% worth?'. .EXACTLY SOD ALL

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: BTL LO ]</p>

24th Jan 2002, 14:41
My intention was not to blame the balpa reps who have represented us so well at great personal cost. . .My post was to highlight the massive task they now have because the Virgin CC has provided the precedent for illegal demotions.. .Beardy. Just look at your own ranting and raving and the effect it has on those around you and the lack of respect the pilots have for you and look the cost to JMC. 15 middle managers resignining from flight operations is a sad indictment of you and your friends. When the GrandMaster finally sails into the sunset we look forward to the man from the Emerald Isle dealing with the Orangemen who have ruined this operation. Maybe then you drummers and square dancers will stop your ranting and raving and let the professionals run this airline. Enjoy your meal.

24th Jan 2002, 15:01
Greentail you are correct the cc rushed into the deal and have let us down very badly. Our only redress is to prove thhe aggremment is illegal by pursuing the decision through court action.. .The action has to be against the cc and its chairman who signed the deal. It is the only way to restore our rights and careers. This plays into the hands of the managers but unfortunately we have no choice.. .My freinds at JMC are very complimentary about your cc and its representatives and hopefully they learn from our mistakes. Why did't Balpa HQ advise our people to delay and consult the pilots. . .I am sorry that such a calamitous decision made by our reps has hit you so badly and I am sorry that this awful precedent has been made. I hope that the court will overturn the aggrement which will benefit you.. .Like you we are concerned for selfish reasons but we believe that if we don't win we will be promoted and demoted at the whim of manasgers. No security and no career. Your concerns over seasonal demotions are justified.. .Good luck with your fight to retain status and give your reps the compliments they so clearly deserve. Don't let your managers divide and conquer.

24th Jan 2002, 15:07
Hello Brett and Wino. No it was not me that failed the ATPL exams 3 times. I gave up after the second attempt. Also I had no problems with the flying unlike some who use this site? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> :) :) :) <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

24th Jan 2002, 20:05

I never complained about the flying, other pilots or flight attendants. That part of JMC was just fine.

What I have repeatedly complained about was unbelievably shortsighted management that you roundly praised.

If you can't understand that getting rid of 7 years of institutional knowledge was a bad thing, atleast admit that flushhing 200 million quid to paint 30 airplanes and adopt ugly uniforms might not have been too wise.

The children running the show were the problem not soldiers in the trenches or even the day to day battles. Those same children have now thrown away the aircraft interchange agreement, it won't be long till the rest of the airline is gone as well. They won't be able to have a winter program if they don't keep the pilots over the summer. In the US jobs are still plentiful, and the exodus is accellerating

Cheers,. .Wino

PS, still employed at AA, holding onto my wide body F/O seat. How you doing? :) :) :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

25th Jan 2002, 00:08
Green tale

"My intention was not to blame the balpa reps who have represented us so well at great personal cost. . .My post was to highlight the massive task they now have because the Virgin CC has provided the precedent for illegal demotions."

Well apparently you did blame the BALPA reps, be careful with your words.. .The Virgin CC sets precedents for Virgin and no one else. Illegal is illegal from both sides of the divide and both sides watch very carefully. Your allusions to a sectarian divide are dangerous and in extremely poor taste, see my first comment. You obviously think yourself well informed, a little self deception is good for an insecure ego.

May the sun keep shining on you, whatever colour it is in your world.

25th Jan 2002, 04:42
The agreement was crafted orginally by Airworld (the only managment of all the incarnations that approached visionary, and guess what they made money!) by which airplanes and Pilots were sent to America for the winter thereby earning their keep in the slow season.

JMC has just blown the whole deal. Now they will have no use for the aircraft in the winter and no ability to scale the operation up and down with the seasons.

Those brand new aircraft carry very steep lease payments that need to be made winter and summer, even though they only are utilized profitably in the summer.

They don't even know how stupid they have been yet, that is the really hysterical part.

Cheers. .Wino

Pilot Pete
26th Jan 2002, 23:28

Can you put some substance behind your claims please? How have jmc "blown the deal"? I could have sworn that we sent several 320's to the US for winter 2001, yes less than originally planned and fewer crews, but that was down to less demand from the US side. As for not taking the Ryan pilots on for this summer, how could they when they are looking to lay off jmc pilots? It is sad indeed and in effect means that we have already lost 60 pilots for summer 2002.

If I am barking up the wrong tree please inform me of what you are refering to.


27th Jan 2002, 08:30
By not taking the Ryan Pilots for the summer there will be no one to operate the aircraft next winter. There will be no Checkairmen etc. and no viable certificate.

The exodus has already started, they will have a difficult time finishing this winter before we get into the problems of next winter.

I agree that it would be wrong to Bring US pilots over when laying off in the UK, however Brits went over while Ryan was laying off. Quid Pro Quo I guess.

But unless they do something (like offer pay for the summer of like the brits get for the winter off) there will be no operation in the US next year because there will be no infrastructure in place to support it. JMC has catagorically denied that they will pay anything to the Ryan pilots for the 7 months of the summer so there will be simply nothing left.

Watch how fast JMC burns money now. Those Leases are far more expensive than the pitance required to keep the pilots on the property.

There are many many jobs out there for A320 pilots in the US right now (USA 3000 Jetblue etc...)

Just continuing examples of pisspoor management. You guys were great to operate with but badly lead.

Cheers. .Wino

28th Jan 2002, 13:47
Sorry wino, but most of the 320s you talk anout are going to BRU permenantly. So they will not be back in the UK again, and will not be available to go to the US. Hence the need to reduce pilot numbers. I think about 7 or 8 are going.