low(ish!) level through the peaks!

[Grob Driver]

Hi Guys,

I’m thinking about flying some friends of mine through the peak district, over ladybower reservoir / derwent dam…. Just wondered who you military guys talk to (if anyone) when you are doing this route… The last think I want is a near miss with one of you guys… Is there any set procedure that should be followed?

Thanks

Grob Driver

[RoboAlbert]

Not wishing to be Mr Morbid but, aside from a midair, have you thought about the implications of flying low level (<2000 agl) across that sort of terrain in a single piston?

You're options in the event of an engine problem are usually somewhat limited. :(

[Grob Driver]

Robo,

Ye, I know what you mean… I have thought about that! I was thinking 1500’… Would transit higher than that, descend down over the dam (to 1500’) and then climb away… If there were any problems, I’d have to hope that I could limp to Camphill glider site, 4 mile south. Does that all sound a bit risky? I guess it maybe does when you look at it like that!

Note to self… Grob Driver, stop being an ar5e, and stick to what you know is safe!…

Robo, you may well have just saved my life!

Would still be interested to know though… do you boyz (and girls!) talk to people when flying routes like that?

[Training Risky]

In my experience, we would have 1 UHF box on Air to Air stud, the other UHF box on Low Level Common stud, and the VHF box on the nearest civil airfield for courtesy calls.

Do you need the stud frequencies?

[Last Shark]

Grob driver - whilst respecting the other guys views on low level in a single engine machine, I offer the following, in the interest of balance!

I have spent many years flying around in single engine piston plank wing and gas turbine helos, a lot of which has been at low level (<200' agl) and have (touch wood) never experienced a problem. Whilst the same level of military training is not available to you there are some guiding principles that may help you along the way.........

1. If you are unfamiliar in the low level environment, get used to it slowly, reducing minimum heights over several sorties.

2. Always try to fly at a height and over terrain that allows you to land should you need to but if not possible, assess the time in a vunerable position against the probability of major failure. Flying after all is a risk management business.

3. Terrain modifies the wind significantly and as little as 15 knots can cause major effects in valleys and mountainous areas. Assess how the geostrophic wind is likely to have been modified by the terrain and always attempt to fly on 2/3rds of the way up a valley side on the updrafting side. Downdrafts/updrafts can be severe and its better to find yourself being forced up than down!

4. Always have an escape heading in mind when entering a valley in case you need to get out for any reason.

There are many more techniques and things to consider, but at 1500' you should be fine. With experience you'll be able to assess any risk and enjoy the experience fully.

Without sounding reckless (coz I'm not!) - Life is not a rehersal!

safe flying:D

[EnnArr]

Hi there, every time I have flown down that part of the world I have been at low level (50') as there is a considerable amount of airspace above you. Without looking at an ERC I cant remember whose airspace it is, but it is controlled. Best you check it out and talk to whoever controls it before tooling around at 1500 ' agl, good luck!

[Showground]

Just found this on the BBC web site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/3056443.stm

[PA38]

Manchester 119.52 done a very similar thing myself:D

[Noah Zark.]

Grob Driver,
Check your P.M.'s

[Mach the Knife]

Most of the fast movers will be at 250'. Rotary lower, and the trainers would be aiming for 500' (solo studes). I may be wrong, but I thought the light civvies were not allowed to fly around below 500' unless making approaches/departing or NOTAM'd

[Dan Winterland]

Rule 5 states 'no closer than 500' from any building,person or structure'. You can fly at 5' quite legally providing you can comply.

GD - you could speak to MAN or EMA but they won't be much use for separation from mil low level traffic. The fast jets won't be receiving any service from them and a radar service will give you separation for a fast moving and manouevering squawk only. Also you may not be visible due to the high ground.

Normal rules are see and avoid. Mil LL traffic is restricted at weekends, so that's your brst bet. Derwent and ladybower resevoirs are favourites - the Dambuster's training lakes.

[Yeller_Gait]

Try flying on a Saturday or Sunday, that will avoid the majority of LL training sorties.

[topcat450]

Not sure what help it is to you, but I've done a similar route around the north of sheffield and into the valleys, over Derwent etc. coming out near matlock, alfreton & hilcote heli-pad (marked on a 1 - half mil).

Engine failure...well..its all country side..you might not make it to a airfield but you're not going to land in a city centre...1500ft I'd not bat an eyelid at that level around there.....then again, maybe I'm a di(khe@d. :mad:

I usually am speaking to waddington, I tell them my route and advise them I'm going into the valley & so maybe out of touch & then call them when I'm back out the other side. Waddo have never said anything to me bar 'see you the other side.'

Good luck & enjoy the view!! :ok:

[RoboAlbert]

Topcat, the problem I'm alluding to is not so much the presence of built-up areas, more the lack of suitable surface to force land on in the event of an engine failure.

I think there’s a lot to be said for avoiding areas with small, steeply sloping, fields with dry stone walls around them if you're too low to glide clear.

I don’t know the route GD is planning but it’s just a thought.

[EESDL]

Enjoy the trip but watch out for Dragon Helicopters (Sheffield) who fly that route on sight-seeing tours.
There's normally some strange person hovering about with under slung loads (unable to follow Rules of the Air etc)

[squawking 7700]

Like Topcat I've flown this route and have been asked to do it tomorrow by a passenger.

I'd agree with TC, use Waddington Radar, do the route at height to start with and check for suitable areas in case of the donkey quitting, that way you'll know where to put it (there aren't many).

Whilst your passengers are ooing and aarghing keep a good lookout and an eye on all suitable areas.

Don't fly the aircraft at max. AUW you might need the extra performance 'cos of the wind - check it, leave a passenger behind if you have to.

Always fly down the valley, that way you're flying 'downhill' with the valley opening out and fly it fast in case you need to turn speed into height. If you fly up the valley, you're flying towards
rising ground and with the possibility of downdroughts you could easily (and I mean very easily) get caught out (there is one accident report where this happened to Katana in the Peak District).


7700

[Grob Driver]

Just wanted to say a big thanks for all the responses to this post… You’ve all been very helpful…. Thanks.

Looks like it’s a weekend trip, talking to Waddington.

Good point about flying down the valley, and flying fast, in case you need to turn speed into height.

Thanks guys

Grob Driver

[Bertie Thruster]

Watch out for the Police helo (with TCAS) and HEMS helos (unfortunately without TCAS)

[ShyTorque]

Chances are from my own experience of low level ops in this area (rotary) you will probably be unable to speak with Waddington as you are a very long way from them. You will NOT be in controlled airspace though, check out the 1/2 mil chart.

East Mids on 134.17 is a better bet but as you will be below MSA only expect a Flight Information Service and the standard warning about your own responsibility for terrain clearance. Or you could get a FIS from Sheffield but their radio range isn't as good as EGNX.

If you must go along the valley heading south, be aware you have no emergency landing area in the valley itself - it is too steep and densely wooded. The water is very deep and as it's my drinking water, please don't even think about putting your oily aircraft in it! And beware of the nasty hidden and uncharted wires at the southern end of of the lake, along the Sheffield road, just east of the big white arched concrete bridge.......but of course you won't have a problem at a sensible altitude although your only emergency landing areas are the tops of the hills, they are very rough ground!!

And watch out for the other bloke coming the other way. He won't be looking out.... :ooh:

Enjoy the flight but be aware of the risks. :ok:

[eugi]

hey grob driver

if you want real mountain flying, come to switzerland, we have some nice spots and valleys with wonderful meteorological conditions...
take a mountain flying instructor and let him introduce you. there are many points to remember...

up/downdrafts, that can even exceed the climbpower of a well powered SEP...
Föhn rotors, that press your plane like paper...
always remember an escape route that tracks over low terrain
take a plane with enough power: forget C152 and other weak planes, they appear most often in the files of the swiss aircraft accident investigation bureau...
always fly on the right side of the valley...
use good tactics to overfly mountain range..
learn 180 turns with high bank without stall..
never turn to the mountains, always away from them
use thermic upwinds, they can help to survive

eugi