I wanna live in Latin America again!

[Off course]

To get a job i take it it's best to turn up and show your face. If so are there any towns in Latin America with a large aviation industry. Currently working in Maun, Botswana and thinking there must be other busy tourist aviation hubs in the world.

Also is an American ATPL the way to go?:hmm:

[B Sousa]

You are Off Course if you wants to leave Bots for Central America.
What are you flying and maybe I can point you to some companies that way. If you want to work in the U.S. its going to be a problem unless you have the infamous Greeen Card...(that 7 million Mexicans dont have)
ATP and turbine time at least gets you coffee with the CPs....
My email is good.

[Squawk7777]

I don't want to sound ugly but Latin America is not as easy as it seems. The only country I can comment on is Mexico. There's a law in Mexico that states that commercial pilots have to be born in Mexico. Additionally, there's another law that states that all commercial airplanes have to have the Mexican flag painted on the plane. Only Mexican commercial pilots can fly an airplane which is Mexican registered and has the Mexican flag on the side...

At the end of the day it surely depends who you know etc but bear in mind that this will not entirely eliminate the hurdles of license conversions, learning Spanish and visa requirements. The latter one's probably the biggest and toughest one.

Again, sorry for spoiling your dreams, but I think it is better now mentioning all this then finding out the hard way ...

Good luck!

7 7 7 7

[chrislikesblue]

Latin America is also my dream place to go but it sounds like that there is not many flying jobs for foreigners.Could anybody point us to some places where we could stand a good chance?

[buffalowing]

Squawk,
As far as Mexico's Federal Labour Law is concerned it is not "who you know" as you say, if you're not Mexican "by birth" you cannot be employed as aircrew on a a Mexican registered aircraft. Mexican "by birth" is defined in the Mexican constitution as: " being born in Mexican territory or being born of parents born in Mexican territory".
This law has to be defended by the Mexican pilots union constantly as it comes under attack from interest groups regularly. "Globalisation".
There are good and recent historical reasons why this law exists.

[Squawk7777]

buffalowing

I know one friend as a matter of fact who was not born in Mexico, doesn't have any Mexican family-history, but has a Mexican commercial license. Actually, his colloquial Spanish is worse than mine. Last year he flew the owner's friend of Pemex or Telmex (pardon my ignorance but I always confuse those two different companies and their flight departments) in his XA registered Falcon as a captain. This person has been flying Mexican politicians for a few years now and the only piece he showed me was the Mexican license. As a matter of fact it was the new credit-card sized plastic one. He's also very sensitive about this subject.

Buffalowing, I don't know whether you flew for MXA or AMEX but I am hearing stories that there are a few non-Mexican born pilots flying for them. I have heard at least two flying for AMEX. But I must also stress that I am not highly connected to the sources any more. It could simply be that they falsified their birth certificates ...

Long story short: Unless you have very high connections, it is unlikely to fly commercially in Mexico. As buffalowing's put it, the law has been designed to protect their national interest. Whether it is fair or not! :uhoh:

[BlenderPilot]

A few years back I had a Spanish friend who went to school with me in the US, he had never been to Mexico but said he wanted to come down here to work, 2 years later he was working flying Beechjets and Kingairs here in MMTO, I helped him get all his papers it took about 6 months and 2,000 dollars (dollars is the magic word around here). He got both his Type Ratings in FlightSafety, did thousands of turbine hours and now he's doing all right in Spain, Pretty Cool from my point of view. I know the law says it can't be done but there is always an altenate way, why I did this? I have worked in other countries and they let me, why shouldn't we let others? Don't let a few jealous pilots keep you from trying, in Mexico you can do ANYTHING.

Its not really about having ultra high connections, its just about being determined to get your papers, I know lots of foreign pilots who work in Mexico as Comm Pilots but have had the patience to do things unconventionally.

[Squawk7777]

I'd say from my (passive) experience that working for a Mexican airline would be tougher (ASPA, etc.) than flying corporate. Speaking of union, it could be easier in getting into the airlines that are not in the union (Allegro, Aviacsa, Aerolineas Internacionales).

hey blenderpilot does this law apply to you rotorheads as well?

[Panama Jack]

What can I say, it is not being "ugly" by telling it how it really is.

Unfortunately, Latin America is not a very welcoming place when it comes to foreign pilots. Really, Belize is the only one with the welcome mat out for foreign pilots with the exception of the occasional contract for experienced, type rated people. Got Boeing 737 command experience? How 'bout an Antonov AN-32 type rating? This is what I mean.

Sometimes it goes to hypocritical extremes IMHO. Latin American society seriously descriminates against immigrants, while they expect the full monty by the United States. I get myself into stitches :mad: every time the (name the latin american country) starts bitching about the US deporting ILLEGAL aliens.

Good luck on you job hunt.

[BlenderPilot]

7777

Well yes the law applies to every comm pilot FW or Rotary, and as far as working for ASPA affiliated airlines it not really more difficult, you would be surprised how many Basques for example work at MXA

[buffalowing]

I know we won't agree in the end. But at least we got a good healthy debate going in this often barren forum.

IMHO:

Sure, there are some corrupt peolple out there who will find
"the patience to do things unconventionally"
and there will also be people (and corporations) who believe that "in Mexico you can do ANYTHING" .

These things do not change the historical facts that led to the present law. And that's why Mexico :
"is not a very welcoming place when it comes to foreign pilots".

Panama Jack:

Your comment about "ILLEGAL aliens" being deported is typical of someone who doesn't know enough about this subject.

Mexico "bitches" about Mexican citizens being murdered, or their human rights being otherwise violated by the US Border Patrol and other US entities.

The bottom line is this guys/gals:

Did you really think the Mexican system is going to facilitate foreigners taking Commercial pilot jobs ($$$) in Mexico when millions of Mexican citizens live in the kind of extreme poverty that forces many of them to emigrate?

Well, that was the situation before the law was changed.

I hope this helps to explain why that law exists.

[B Sousa]

Buffalowing comments:
"Panama Jack:

Your comment about "ILLEGAL aliens" being deported is typical of someone who doesn't know enough about this subject.

Mexico "bitches" about Mexican citizens being murdered, or their human rights being otherwise violated by the US Border Patrol and other US entities.

Did you really think the Mexican system is going to facilitate foreigners taking Commercial pilot jobs ($$$) in Mexico when millions of Mexican citizens live in the kind of extreme poverty that forces many of them to emigrate?"



First so whats to know about illegal aliens being deported. Is this something that requires a Masters degree??....
You come across the border illegally , you better dam well expect to get deported. They are a burden on those of us who have to pick up the tax tab for all their kids, medical and social services......
On the west coast illegal mexicans are the primary group responsible for the importation of Methamphetamine and Tar Heroin.. I only wish INS and Border Patrol would do more.
I also preface my comments with the fact that I do not envy the poor workers who come across seeking a better life. However that is not my problem and I dont want to pick up the tab for their welfare..

As to your stupid comment about them being murdered or their human rights otherwise being violated by the US Border Patrol. You have to be some whacko bleeding heart liberal. Your the person I would like to see paying about 75% income tax to fund all this crap.. Im sure you would sing a different song.They stay on the other side of the border and then there wont be any problems. You commit a crime, you lose some of your rights.

All these countries crying about You dont live here so you cant fly here sort of makes me laugh as 90% of the trained Pilots doing all the screaming were trained in the U.S.of A.....

As to millions of mexicans living in poverty. What on earth does that have to do with pilots. You going to train these Millions to fly??

I certainly hope you dont have an FAA issued license. Better you fly in some other country.

Certainly gone a long way from Botswanna on this thread....

[buffalowing]

Circle the wagons boys! yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehaw!

You are sad "Sousa".

[Captain Stable]

Chill out please, guys.

I haven't yet edited or deleted posts on this thread - I hope not to have to.

[BlenderPilot]

Dear Bert,

I think if I were in your shoes I would feel the same way, its not fare to have your taxes go to help other peoples problems, but my very humble opinion is there is some sort of "higher wiser unknown power" letting those illegal aliens and drugs get thru.

I mean who is going to do the "dirty work" picking oranges from trees, under scorching heat for a few bucks a day? If your average US high school graduate did this how much do you think an orange would cost? How much do you thing it would cost to landscape?

I'm not saying that all Mexicans who go there do this, I have Mexican friends working for the World Bank in D.C. or Visa in N.Y. making salaries that would make any pilot look poor.

Now with the drugs, I think its easier to let drugs thru and let those undesirable groups of people self destroy themselves. (if you are as smart as I think you are you know what I am talking about)

You blame the Mexicans for bringing in the drugs, but what society consumes them? In some european countries drugs are easily accesible and legal, and you couldn't pay most people a millon bucks to go near them, why is this?

The U.S. is a great country, a great part of todays awsome technology comes from there, they can go half way around the world and take control of a country they have never been to in a matter of days! Can you honestly say they couldn't or don't have the technology to build a fence , and develop the tech to stop thousands of people coming thru the border everyday?

If thousands people carrying their bags across the border illegally enter everyday it is because someone up there has decided to allow, you can't deny that.

Just my different opinion.

[B Sousa]

Oscar
I dont think your opinion is that out of line.
Yes there is some Higher power letting folks through Its called a Government with a blind eye, in fact two blind eyes..
As to who does the dirty work. Right again. Im sure most lazy ass americans wouldnt do it....They would go without Oranges rather than put away the TV clicker. Still does not make it right..... We had a Bracero program years ago, it worked good. People came did the work, and took the money home.....to Mexico
Yes I do blame the Mexicans for bringing in the Drugs. Just because we have a Sh1tpot load of druggies here does not give them Carte Blanche to smuggle the crap into into this country....Come on....
I wish I could answer why drugs are legal in some other countries. My thoughts are that they have caved because they couldnt control it. Its the free to do what you want attitude. If the Government must help you through life from cradle to grave, no problem, those who work and are responsible will pay. I can also say look at Amsterdam. It comes to mind first. Tax rate to pay these losers is out of sight. Do drugs, dont work and the Gubament will take care of you. I have a friend in Sweden whos now paying well over 50 % of his income in taxes for Social Services for those debilitated losers so that they may exist in the socialistic world.
And yes we have the technology to build a fence, but we have politicians that would lose votes. Which do you think will win at this game.
Im not real happy with our Government here, but Im less happy with others who tell me it sucks. Im betting as bad as it is, Im paying less taxes than those in Europe and receive better service..
So your opinion is not that far from mine....
I am not in agreement with Buffalochip for sure.....As I said before, he need not have an FAA license, hes happy and thats what counts for him.
Oscar....bet you have an FAA issued license?? in fact I know you do and Im still waiting for you to show up here for some Coronas.
My name is on my posts, its obvious sometimes I overload my ass. But for the most part I stand behind what I say.....I have no problem with apologies when Im wrong.

[Panama Jack]

Buffalo Wing wrote:

"Panama Jack:

Your comment about "ILLEGAL aliens" being deported is typical of someone who doesn't know enough about this subject."


Je je je. "Woop woop-- Pull Up" oops! Too late. You already hit the ground! If I were to take your words for their literal value I would consider your comments to be rather condescending.

Unfortunately, I know and have personally experienced enough of this subject that I feel more than qualified to comment on it.

I am a resident of a Central American country which a local political cartoonist affectionately/mockingly refers to as "Paisito." Here in Paisito, the aviation regulations were last ammended about 40 years ago (in 1957, to be exact). Like in Mexico, the law restricts only CITIZENS of Paisito to participate in aviation "Solo el personal tecnico aeronautico (paisitanos) podra ejecer en (Paisito) actividad renumerada de aeronautica nacional."

Why is this? When, there is a thinly guised concern of "national security," of course. But the truth was that the dictator of that day and age wanted to reward air force officers leaving the armed forces with the well payed civilian jobs. After all, the military helped keep him (and daddy) in power for decades. Foreigners out! It is protectionism, plain and simple. Of course local pilots love it.

In most countries civil aviation directorates do not specificate nationality as a qualifier for holding a civil aviation license. Authorizing the right to work is, and should always be, the sole responsibility of a country's immigration authorities. For example, any national can hold an FAA ATP. That doesn't mean that you can get a job at American Airlines, though, unless the Immigration and Naturalization Service has given you the green light.

Imagine if the FAA tomorrow said that only US citizens could hold a US ATP. I have a few Mexican and Latin American pilot friends who are permanent residents in the US who would be out of work. Is this right? No of course not.

Back to Paisito. My wife is a citizen of Paisito and we have been married a number of years. We also have a daughter who is a citizen of Paisito. I am a permanent resident of Paisito, and we live here. I have the right to live, work and pay taxes here. Yet I may not work in aviation in Paisito because, although Immigration has said I am OK, Civil Aviation department makes its own rules. In addition, My daughter, although a citizen of this country is treated completely differently from other citizens because she was born abroad (this means more $$$ for whatever she needs to do-- like getting a birth certificate, whatever). The system is thus that it descrimiates in such a manner which people would scream about if it were to happen in the US. An immigrant in the US is often more welcome and has an easier time integrating in society than in many Latin American countries. Down here, once a foreigner, always a foreigner.

In the case of Mexico, it is hipocritical to lecture and complain to the US authorities about the treatment of illegal aliens when Central and South Americans, who are illegally in Mexico often suffer worse abuses at the hands of Mexican authorities.

Over to you Buffalo Wing. Saludos! :}

[Squawk7777]

Here's a point from someone who's not from Latin America nor from the US or Canada.

I agree with Panama Jack. Most of the laws in Latin America (again, I can only really write about Mexico) have been written to keep certain people in power or to get some extra cash by bribery. As Blenderpilot has put it, it's not impossible.

buffalowing

As for many people living in extreme poverty I couldn't agree more. Hell, I got lost once in Mexico City and ended up in Neza. It really makes you think when you see this sh!thole. But then, how many Mexicans (middle-class) have seen this? I have also seen the other extreme when I worked as a corporate pilot for a duty free company. We stopped in Laredo one day and I looked around in one of our stores. The most expensive item was the Cognac "Louis XVI" at $900/bottle. When I asked the store manager who the typical customer is he replied that they ship this sh!t (his words) by the boxes to Mexico during election times.

What makes me think when I see your profile it seems that you work in Europe. So are you a Mexican who works overseas? If so, I find it strange that you defend the labour-protection law but take advantage of this "flexibility" in Europe. If not, then pardon my comment.

Bert

In my honest opinion the people who buy drugs are as guilty as the ones who sell and smuggle them across. I know many people from my old high-school days who started with all this crap. In my eyes they are mostly spoiled little b******s who were given too much and never had to face reality. But I also see success the way the American tax payer's money is spent. A new program has been created to intercept the drug-smuggeling speedboats with Augusta (?) choppers in the Gulf. Don't forget that the smugglers are so desperate now that they are digging tunnels under the border!

[Danny]

I've reviewed this thread after some complaints about its closure. Overall, it is an aviation related thread but as usual there are a few posters who seem to have great difficulty in sticking to the topic and try to deflect the thread along lines that have nothig whatsoever to do with aviation.

Unless posters can remain mature and focused these posts will degenerate into political discussions. Whilst that in itself is not a problem as long as it has an aviation 'flavour', experience tells me and my moderators that there are very few posters who are able to have a political debate that doesn't degenerate into infantile and often xenophobic tirades.

In this case, I can see why Captain Stable decided to close the thread but upon appeal and his request that I have a look at it I will reopen it witht he proviso that anyone who makes a post that is not connected to aviation, and by that I don't mean just a single reference to the FAA or something, will be banned from further participation in the thread/debate. Initially a ban will be for 24 hours. Should an offender continue to ignore the rules and make a further post that is solely inflammatory and not related to aviation they will be permanently banned from participating in this thread. In fact, they will be prevented from even reading it.

It is not easy for us to moderate this and all the other forums. We do it in our spare time and we do it to make the experience of using PPRuNe enjoyable. Unfortunately, there are always a few people who manage to spoil it for the majority by their inability to understand that just flaming another poster because they don't agree with their views is not acceptable and then we have to step in and try to salvage the situation.

In this case, because it is a relatively quiet forum and this thread was potentially quite interesting I have decided to reopen it on the understanding that all posters agree to the rules. If it ain't avation related, don't post it here.

[Panama Jack]

:ok: Fair enough Danny. Thank you as well as to Captain Stable for reopening it. I understand your concerns and appreciate the time you contribute around your normal schedule.

While I did not expect this thread to be reopened, I guess pigs really do fly! :D

Well guys, as they say in the German language "zur Sache!"