Lyneham Future?

[BEagle]

A big news story just being shown on Central TV South - they seem to be convinced that an announcement will be made tomorrow stating that Lyneham is to close.

[The Gorilla]

Hope Springs Eternal......

[Wholigan]

God I hope it doesn't close! I'll really miss being whinged at on a weekly basis for being inside their zone when I'm actually a mile outside it map/ground/map and they are relying on a radar that doesn't see aircraft very well but sees trucks on the M4 and they give you avoiding action on the trucks!!! ;) :E :ok:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Is this the end for RAF Lyneham?

An announcement on the future of RAF Lyneham - not expected to be good news - is expected on Friday

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/news/index.shtml

:{

[ORAC]

Went through this last November (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38984&perpage=15&highlight=lyneham%20brize%20mawgan&pagenumber=1). Just been waiting for the announcement.

The announcement would have been delayed until the A-400M contract was signed and there was a time scale for delivery and IOC and the concommitant rundown of the C-130 fleet.

[Scud-U-Like]

The folks in that cottage, with the approach lights in their garden, must be breaking open the champagne.

[ShyTorque]

Scud,

A great shame to hear this although the report I heard this a.m. said it would be 9 yrs before the camp is "finally abandoned".

The neighbours won't be celebrating when the proposals for the asylum seekers camp or the massive new housing estate are mentioned.....

Ask those who live on the edge of RAF Newton airfield, you know, those ones who always complained about aircraft noise (which had been there since about 1937). They soon began to wish they had the aircraft back......:uhoh:

[Scud-U-Like]

As you may have gathered, I was being flippant, ShyTorque. It's just that, every time I drive past that house, I have visions of the hapless occupants clinging to some vain hope that, just maybe, perhaps, one day, in the distant future, the source of all their troubles might disappear and they can, at last, hear the birds singing and take a chainsaw to that 40 foot approach light in their front garden. Nine years isn't that long and, after that, assylum seekers or housing developments will seem a minor irritation.

Personally, I think the closure is a bad thing. Apart from other considerations, Lyneham has much better road communications than Brize.

I just hope they will use the site constructively or, failing that, return it to nature. There are so many former RAF stations lying unused, overgrown and derelict. The MoD really should be held more accountable for the condition in which it leaves such sites.

[country calls]

As a complete and utter spotter who is employed at the 'doomed airbase' I would like to know what is going to happen to the poor old Comet sat on the gate. There is currently no money spent looking after it, and there is now likely to be even less (!) So are we to see the demise of one of the few remaining examples of the worlds first jet airliner, or can an early offer be made to ship it to somebody who will preserve it for future generations.

For those closet spotters who are afraid of being outed in this thread, go to the aviation history and nostalgia section on pprune where you can comment on the thread I have started in a similar vein...........your secret is safe with us, honest

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

From the updated link I posted earlier....

Defence minister Adam Ingram added that the base will remain open until the RAF's Hercules C130K heavy lift fleet goes out of service, but will then close and be sold off unless a new use has been found for it.


(This doesn't add up, as reports of our 50 aircraft fleet going to Brize would appear to be an exaggeration)

(And our Mk3A's are staying around for more than 9 years)

Stop Press....the move in about 7 years

[solotk]

Move 16 AAB to Lyneham and keep a detached flight of C-130's there.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

If common sense and logic had anything to do with it, the answer is staring us in the face.

HUB & SPOKE

Send us all to Cyprus!!

The Strategic Airlifters can deliver their wares and we'll do the Gulf shuttles.

Ay thank you.

[sprucemoose]

SirPeter:

The announcement said the base will close in 2012; the UK's first A400Ms will be coming in 2011, so this does actually fit with your comments on Mk3s going out in more than nine years, as the A400Ms will have to be worked up.

[Flatus Veteranus]

So another station in a pleasant part of Southern England bites the dust! Having looked at the RAF's official website, the flying stations left for blokes and blokesses who are more at home in the South than in Jockistan, Taffistan or the North East seems to consist only of Odiham, Benson and the Secret Oxfordshire Base.

You can bet that Lyneham would not close if it were in Scotland, Wales or Cornwall!

The distribution of RAF stations may be affecting career decisions - particularly in the ground branches. Advice on the resettlement courses for those approaching retirement was (in my day!) try to buy a property in London or the home counties, and hang onto it like grim death. Your chances of finding a decent job will be far higher than in "the regions". Presumably, many of the guys and gals at Lyneham have bought locally?

I thought the "Air Base" series about Lyneham on TV was excellent, even if it was a bit late in the evening for drooling old wrinklies.

[AHORSE]

Interesting the statement said that Lyneham would close if "No other military us could be found for it" and the time scale was based upon the K retiring. After all the money they've spent on the K3A 2Gp want to keep it going to 2017/2020. Where does that leave Lyneham then? Will they move the sims? Can Brize cope with C17 FSTA (VC10, Tristars from the desert), A400M, C130J and 16 C130K3A?

More questions than answers or so the song says.

[Grimweasel]

Well it sure would make sense to base an Army unit there. 16AAB would be a good choice. (not for the local police though!!)
Prehaps this would be a good base for UKSF. Ideal ammounts or real estate perched on a hill away from prying eyes. C0-locate all SF assets inc. aircraft at one base.

Can't see it ever being returned to agricultral use!

Mind you, if the Blues get into HMG at the next election whos to say that this decision will not be reversed?

[The Gorilla]

Well consolidation can be a good thing you know!!

I hope it is sold off for houses. The Treasury will make an absolute mint you know!!

The cash thus raised could be invested into... say the Railways perhaps?

Just a thought!!

:= :ok:

[BDiONU]

Its closing by 2012 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/3042522.stm

If Lyneham were sold for agricultural use, it has previously been estimated to be worth £11.25m.

[DrSyn]

Assuming, of course, that we still have an agricultural industry to buy it in 2012 :sad:

[Episkopiana]

Guys, and Girls, of course Lyneham will be closing, Brize is a much better base for Mistakes to happen. It has the best Quarters in the RAF, with pre-installed Asbestos Insulation. The Infrastructure is run-down, and the Aircrew all live on a cloud next to god.
With reference to the Gate Guard at Lynehm, I reckon some new engines, a lick of paint and some modern aerials, and it will be the most advanced AEW aircraft for Kinloss.

:cool:

[Stan Bydike]

Epi,

It would be the only advanced AEW aircraft at Kinloss.

Last time I looked, AEW was the province of Waddington

[SALAD DODGER]

I keep trying to find some logic in the decision, and feel that we have really scored an own goal. I cant see that the long term savings and benefits outway the disadvantages of closing one of the most successfull, happy and capable RAF stations.

I dread to think how much money needs to be spent on Brize to bring it up to scratch today, let alone over the next 10 years to make way for all those personnel, aircraft and support infrastructure. The sad thing is we all know it will be done on the cheap by some half arsed contractor, and in such a way that it will only meet an already outdated requirement. At least we have the MOD to help us as they have a long tradition of constructing fantastic contracts that deliver on time and budget.

I cant think of a single Nation that would decide to put all their AT/AAR assets in one Station, and at a time when expeditionary warfare seems to be our bread and butter.

[BlueEagle]

Grimweasel has touched on this but doesn't it all depend on keeping open an airfield suitable for SF ops based on Hereford? Don't see SF moving anywhere soon, having just spent a mint on their new HQ/Training base etc. so if they close Lyneham where is the next most suitable AD for military ops that is easily accessible by road from Hereford?

Answers please, on a postcard to Whitehall.

[Grimweasel]

Lets all phone up the shadow Defence Sec. (Con) and all ask him if he will keep the place open in exchange for 2500 votes? Just look how close it was when GW Bush got in!!!

[rej]

So who is this Wholigan and who is really whinging?

If you are told you're in the zone, then it means you are. Maybe you shouldn't be flying - try driving one of those "trucks we see on the M4" instead of flying - at least you can read the road signs to find out where you really are.

[BEagle]

Err, I think you'll find that Wholi' does know what he's talking about. He does have a few thousand FJ flying hours, you may be interested to know....

And yes, Lyneham radar does pick up trains - but Brize Radar once gave me traffic information on a tractor! Onew of those spraying things with great long booms - must have been some dipole lengths in its construction!

[ORAC]

But it was only ever 8 Sqn who had to be advised that they were overtaking..... :O

[rej]

He may have a few thousand FJ hours but maybe he is not quite so current with Class D rules re avoidance of unknown contacts.

I have spent many thousand hours in front of the radar and equally many hours trying to resolve the issue of having to pass traffic information on "unknown traffic" (ie the trains, 'angels' and road traffic) within Class D.

I have no doubt that the ATS providers know their stuff - contact them I'm sure all can be explained or altenatively pick a route where you don't have rely on some "controller whinging at you!"

[StopStart]

.....limited radar service due to poor radar performance.........

etc etc

[BEagle]

rej - there is no requirement for traffic under VFR in Class D airspace to be given any separation instructions from unknown contacts. That's a fallacy perpetuated by military controllers who still think that they're controlling the old 'Rule 36' airspace. Traffic information should be available, however, but no avoidance instructions given...... So you can tell Wholi' about your tractors, trains, angels, birdies, anaprop and other distractions, but if he's operating under VFR in Class D airspace you do NOT have any right to interfere with the legitmate progress of his flight.

There is a tendency for military controllers to treat Class D airspace as 'permanent IFR'. When VMC exists in Class D airspace, the over control of legitimate VFR traffic in order to give full IFR separation on 'unknown contacts' is intensely annoying. In fact there is a current CHIRP programme running as a result of controllers refusing permission to VFR traffic to enter Class D airspace.

Although the ANO requires that traffic in Class D airspace obeys controllers' instructions, overcontrol in VFR is unacceptable and should be reported using the CHIRP proforma.

[rej]

BEagle
You a correct in that VFR traffic does not need to be issued any avoiding action against such "unknown traffic" in fact it is not even called to the VFR traffic unless we have reason to believe that it is an ac that could be co-altitude. Lyneham ATC does follow the rule iaw the ANO and JSP 552 - I should know as one of the examiners. It is only IFR traffic that is offered avoiding action, thus I think your comment "you do NOT have any right to interfere with the legitmate progress of his flight." is totally out of order.

We in the military do not 'over control' - I think we are professional controllers who provide a safe and flexible service. If you would like to discuss this further I am sure we could arrange for you to visit. You never know, you might even appreciate some of the problems that we experience.

By the way I don't suppose you were flying into EGBP today were you !!!

[BEagle]

rej, thanks for your response. No, I was firmly on the ground today.....

'You' was not meant personally when I was referring to the 'over control' of legitimate VFR traffic. Sorry for that. It was meant as a generic reference; VFR traffic has every right to proceed without interference in VMC Class D airspace and it sounds as though that's what you provide. But traffic info should be 'on request' - not every train, tractor and unknown contact unless the pilot has requested it. I was once flying from Farnborough to Filton in gin clear VMC (in a military aeroplane) and was right royally messed around to suit some controller's desires to accommodate a formation which was due to take off from Rompers Green - but hadn't actually done so. Quite which Rule of the Air gives taxying traffic priority under airborne traffic, I do not know..... So he got the '7000A, to en-route, good day' treatment. As did the half-wit at the Secret Oxonian Airbase who once tried to order me not to cross The Sacred Zone below FL60 when it tops out at 3500' amsl....

Have to say that your flexibility could show another aerodrome with Class D airspace a thing or 2! Where VFR traffic is often 'controlled' in VMC instead of avoidance being passed to those wishing to fly under IFR.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Assume that the military rules broadly accord with those in the civil world (with Class D being a civil classification and all that ;) )

In which case, when dealing with unknown aircraft in Class D airspace the instructions to military ATC would be akin to:

Passing traffic information on unknown aircraft unless the primary function of sequencing and separating IFR flights is likely to be compromised.

If a pilot requests Avoiding Action it shall be provided to the extent decided by the radar controller.

Give Avoiding Action if radar derived or other information indicates that an aircraft is lost, has experienced a radio failure, or has made an unauthorised penetration of the airspace.

If the pilot decides not to comply with the Avoiding Action advice, he becomes responsible for his own separation and any Avoiding Action which may subsequently become necessary.



So, in BEagles case at point, and confirmed by rej, in terms of Avoiding Action it seems it is being carried out exactly as it should be. Unfortunately, if the JSP rules are the same as those we have in the civilian world then there is no leeway to not pass information on unknown contacts (unless you use the defence of being too busy with IFR tasks as detailed above :E ). Perhaps it's one for the rulemakers to look at changing in respect of VFR traffic receiving a service. They should be looking out the window after all, admiring the trains, trucks, and tractors below !!

[BEagle]

Yes - ish. But the point being made is that in gin clear VMC, pilots operating in accordance with VFR in Class D airspace should not have the progress of their flights arranged to give priority to IFR traffic. The IFR traffic shall be given avoiding action on VFR traffic, not vice versa. That might seem unreasonable to some, but that's all that's mandated in Class D airspace. You won't find Class C in the UK, Class B in the UK is FL245 and above, so unless you're controlling a Class A CTR or the LTMA, please don't hassle legitimate VFR traffic in Class D airspace!

Who let the so-and-sos have a RT set installed in the Watch Office!;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

:O

Not quite the same case being discussed here but we've gone round the houses on Class D in the ATC Forum over the last week or so.

If you got a spare 3 weeks, have a read ;)

Class D Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95386&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

[MikeTells]

This Class D airspace stuff is absolutely enthralling. How does it affect the closure of Lyneham again?

[BEagle]

Because when Lyneham closes, a pointless and unneccessary piece of over regulated airspace will go with it! The daft Lyneham CTA will be consigned to the rubbish bin where it justly belongs. The CTR I can understand - but why the he££ do they need a CTA up to FL65?? Brize doesn't need one - so why does Lyneham?

Even though the Lyneham ATCOs do a great job.....

[gaterbait]

Hey scud, fyi, when i was on 216 in the late 60's [during the comet daze] that cottage was the home of the village bobby. his name was vic something.:cool:

[DummyRun]

Lon Mil - Albert, contact Bzn Rdr on ***.**,

Albert - do be serious I was planning on landing today, VMC, field in sight ,going on route, stud 5, thanks byeee.

Load moving............

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Has there been an announcement?

That is, apart from the landlord of Mallard Pub in Lyneham village, on GWR FM radio today. He's delighted that Lyneham is staying open til 2020.

I'll see what the station barber has to say for himself.

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Sir Peter,

The Stn Barber is no more. Scouse carked it a few years ago - heart attack brought on by pre Op ORE investigations, apparently.

The Barber is in fact a chick and after a few pints of Stan Collymore, she would catch one!


Yours

ISITD

:8

[althenick]

I just don’t get it with these closures. We currently have reserve units all over the UK that are housed in buildings that are either located in prime development areas or are leasesd at a Kings ransom to the MoD. Surely some of these units could relocate into these threatened bases (Whatever Service) where appropriate to justify that base’s existence. For example a unit of logistics TA people are already housed in Lyenham. Why not also put the TA unit from Swindon in there too? Same with other threatened Bases –

Kinloss – Bring the TA Units in from Elgin and Kieth.

Why stop at threatened bases?

Faslane – Bring HMS Dalriada RNR and the TA Unit at Dumbarton into the base – there’s about to be 6 MCMV’s to be decommissioned so there would be plenty of office space plus it has nearly all the facilities required to accommodate and train these units.

HMS Gannet – the (now) disused part of the Base could probably accommodate the RCT and Ayrshire Yeomanry Units which are both only a few miles away

If this were to happen nationally I suspect that the MoD would probably save (and make) a lot more money offloading real Estate and severing lease agreements than cutting a few major bases which could probably be useful in the future.

… Just a thought anyway
:confused:

[Jimlad]

Nick.

good plan, but dependent on the leases of the units. A lot of TA and RNR units have interesting leases which may make it cheaper to keep the building than dispose of it. Another consideration is visibility to keep the unit in the public eye and show a presence.

[November4]

Heard that Kinloss will be going in a brief at the secret Oxford base this week

[althenick]

Jimlad,

Your not wrong there!

HMS Graham had a 100 year lease for 1d ! - I suspect that's why the TA got when the RNR left!