My Friend Wants To....

[richie-rich]

G'day all
This "Rich" friend of mine, who is way older than me, wants to buy a min. 7-10 seater. He flies out of Adelaide almost every week on business purpose with Qantas & Dj and was asking me how it would be like to get his P.P.L, buy something like a Cessna Caravan (a single engine is a must!! ) and fly it to and from as the co-pilot with a P.I.C on board.

Now, I am halfway through to my training, but the questions he asked me seem to have left me in the dark. Would he be able to buy a decent second hand 5-10 seater in Au$200,000 region? Can he use it for charter ops when its sitting down idle? How about the maintenance? I know there are maintenance shops in most airports, but what would be the parking fee like?

Also, could someone suggest the best place to look for such aircraft? And feel free to name differnt models which might compete with Caravan.

I have been doing my training for almost a year now but I never came up with the idea of buying a plane for myself. Now that my friend wants to know, I would be grateful if someone steps up and helps him out. :O

Take care all
Richie

[0tter1]

Im not sure, but i would probably tell your friend to continue using QANTAS or VIRGIN, as in the long run he would prob save himself a lot of money... The trouble is trying to find a single engine a/c around the $200,000 mark that can carry 7-10 pobs.
A cessna caravan these days, even an older (86-90 model) Will still set you back around 1 - 1.5 million dollars. That is a lot of DJ airfares. Also in that price range is the pipers.. Meridian and Malibu. $200,000 would buy you a 210, Bonanza or a lance, but there is only 6 seats, and also if you are carrying an extra pilot, then you are down to five seats. The other option is to buy a twin for the extra capacity, ie Nav/Chieftain/402/421. But your looking at more $$ and you stated he only wants a single...
Maintenance wise, I wise engineer once told me... If it flies
f :mad: cks or floats, rent it. Otherwise its gonna cost. Not to mention give you trouble... I hate to sound negative, but if this guy wants to fly he is much better off using the airlines for business and flying in his own time. That way he can fly someone elses plane, and only pay an hourly rate. Not have to worry how much the chip in the prop he just put in is gonna cost him. I am still scratching my head about single engine 7-10 seats... But if he is really "Rich" then he should by a caravan or a PC-12 :ok: .
Buy the aviation trader, available from most news agents or local pilots shop... You will get a good idea of a/c availability and prices from there..

Otter1

[richie-rich]

Dear Otter
Thanks for your reply, partner. Well, if he goes to a bank and asks for Au$500,000, he would be granted that in a day. So, yes, he is rich!

But you see.....the sole reason for buying a plane isnt for his own use. As I have said, he needs to fly out of Adelaide every week or so. But he was telling me about his intention to start-up a "very" teeny-weeny charter/for rent kind of company with intention to add more fleet later on. He really loves planes and flying and I think he has got few hours in his log book as well. He now wants to finish his PPL off so that he can fly his plane for the fun of it and rent it or charter whatever when its sitting idle.

I too, am not sure how he would take care of maintenance. If hes earning few bucks wid that machine, cant he make up for it? All the planes in our school are done by our own maintenance staff and I havent got a clue what/how its like.

Anyways, would appreciate further info.

Take care
Richie

[Islander Jock]

But he was telling me about his intention to start-up a "very" teeny-weeny charter/for rent kind of company with intention to add more fleet later on

A very wise and regular poster on these threads, when given this scenario often makes the recommendation which goes something along the lines of. "Take a Bex and lie down until the urge passes"

Richie,

I know a fairly wealthy businessman who sounds very much like your mate in terms of a naive passion for aviation. After a closer look at the cash involved both in initial outlay and ongoing running costs, he decided he wanted to remain a wealthy businessman and continued to fly business class in someone elses aeroplanes.

[richie-rich]

Evening Islander Jock!
Maybe he is someone just like that friend of yours. I really dont know. I mean, I was talking to him today and he set all his work aside and fired away all those questions which I asked you guys in the first post. As for your quote, he told me that if he finds that he can "utilize" the aircraft into something positive and make it a money earning source, he would want to buy more aircrafts and do something with those.

He was also asking me about P.P.L courses which he has always wanted to do eversince he first came to Oz, but wasnt lucky enough to start it due to financial constrain. Anyways, I really dont know what I will tell him when I see him next on Saturday. Perhaps ask him to .....stick to QF or DJ.

Thanks all.

Richie

[Torres]

Islander Jock. Darn it - you beat me to it!!! :*

A 5 - 10 seater for Aus$200,000? Maybe, but you'll need another couple of hundred grand to buy engines, props, avionics etc. A good Baron, C402, PA31 will cost double that - if you can find one! A GA Airvan meets your load and SE requirements, but is well over half a megabuck and non IFR on commercial ops.

Even a basic, used, 8,000 to 10,000 hour C208 Caravan (Baby Van) with reasonable engine time available will cost Aus$1.5 mill minimum, plus another couple of hundred to get it IFR and ASETPA approved in Australia.

".....he would want to buy more aircrafts and do something with those."

I suggest he buys all the Islanders in Australia and sells them to Sims Metal for 10 cents per kilo! :}

Childish wind up! :hmm:

[Mr. Hat]

Islander Jock you took the words right out of my mouth.

Richie, if you like your friend you will tell him to forget about it. This will in the long run save him a lot of stress and money.

By all means if he wants a ppl go ahead and give it a go - but buying aircraft - no way, never in a million years.

[richie-rich]

Torres
you 4real know what wind up means, buddy? What am i? Some dude trying to come up with a post for the sake of it or what? I am going to forward this thread to him so that he can take a look at it by himself and decide on this. I am just trying to help him out. Thats basically it.

Mr. Hat. Thank you, sir. Point taken. Wilco! ;)

Richie

[Torres]

Richie, my good man. I simply found your questions ... well ... somewhat unimaginable from anyone associated with aviation, even someone "halfway through ..... training"

"...like to get his P.P.L, buy something like a Cessna Caravan (a single engine is a must!!)"

(The annual insurance premium for a 50 hour PPL attempting to defy gravity in a C208 would keep me in p!ss for ever!)

"Would he be able to buy a decent second hand 5-10 seater in Au$200,000 region?"

(You could. But I doubt it would have engines.)

"I know there are maintenance shops in most airports, but what would be the parking fee like?"

(Trust me, the parking fees will be mere change compared to the size of the maintenance fees!)

"..could someone suggest the best place to look for such aircraft?"

(If your interest is genuine, they'll find you. If not the internet. Or call 1800 CESSNA.)

"And feel free to name differnt models which might compete with Caravan."

(Like XXXX beer, nothing competes with a Caravan.)

Good luck with your training. May you never have the joy of burning up vast bundles of $100 bills that is inherent with aircraft ownership.

[buzz box]

Torres, tend to disagree with...

"I simply found your questions ... well ... somewhat unimaginable from anyone associated with aviation, even someone "halfway through ..... training"


I think you'd find many 200hr commercial pilots nowadays would have no real idea on the operating costs in aviation. It isnt until you get some real industry experience operating for someone who's watching the bottom line that you learn whats involved.

I must admit, i was quite ignorant to the real operating costs of aircraft through my training. After all, flying schools like you to take your time...especially when on VDO.

Richie, the old saying comes to mind... 'to make a small fortune in aviation, you need to start with a big one.' All the best with the rest of your training.

Cheers, BB :D

[richie-rich]

Dear Torres
Haha.....nice joke regarding my "involvement with aviation." Try to get what I mean. If I knew all the answers to these questions, then I wouldnt post it here in the first place. You just dont get what I am trying to say. I "am" in the dark as to what it would be like to buy an aircraft and maintain it and associated issues. Thats why I posted my comment here. As to whether you believe me or not is none of my concern. Yes, I am doing my training, but never had the intention to buy a plane for myself and dont intend to. now, if someone asks me these questions, all I can tell him is that "Ok I will ask people around and get back to you." I didnt give him any direct answer on whatever he asked me the other day.

As for him flying his own Caravan with a P.P.L, hmmm......silly me!

Buzz box, thanx for your wishes. I "will" get there oneday. :)

Richie

[Torres]

OK Richie, my apologies. But your post did look like a wind up – the type of post I would make for a stir after a six pack of XXXX! :\

To explain, fourteen years ago I had a couple of Cessna 172’s, a Cessna 150 and a few other aircraft. I charged $120 per hour for a Cessna 172, solo, and made no more than a “meagre living”. I guess a C172, solo is probably still around $120 per hour with significantly higher operating costs today – does that tell you anything about non existent profit margins in flying training today?

I haven’t looked up the latest DOC/IDOC’s on a Caravan, but at a guess, the Direct Operating Costs (DOC’s – fuel, maintenance etc) are probably around $400 per hour and the Indirect Operating Costs (debt servicing, insurance etc) at a minimum 1,000 hours per year are also probably around $400 per hour. Charter rate should be around $1,300 to $1,500 per hour.

So you can see if you don’t get at least 1,000 revenue hours per year and at least $1,300 per hour, you’re out the door backwards! Big time!

Owning and operating any aircraft commercially is a serious business for experienced aviation professionals, and in the current climate, margins are incredibly thin or non existent. Commercial aviation is not a “road to riches” for rich kids with no aviation experience. That is the advice I would be giving your friend.

Good luck with your flying career. :ok:

[Onan the Clumsy]

I'm a little confused with this one, does this friend have money Well, if he goes to a bank and asks for Au$500,000, he would be granted that in a day. So, yes, he is rich! or not?He was also asking me about P.P.L courses which he has always wanted to do eversince he first came to Oz, but wasnt lucky enough to start it due to financial constrain.

[Torres]

Onan, I thought Richie's posts were a tad odd and contradictory, but gave him the benefit of the doubt.:}

Interesting "...if he goes to a bank and asks for Au$500,000, he would be granted that in a day."

From my experience in financing, the only person who could ever achieve that would have a Glok or Uzi in his hands! Banks aren't that free with their brass.

[richie-rich]

Dear Torres and Onan (Ahh there you r, Da Clumsy)!
Thank you for your posts. I will meet him today, so I might as well print this thread off and hand it over to him so he can take an informed decision by himself having to bug me further.

Torres, he came to Oz exactly 15 years from now as an international student. His lifelong ambition was to be a commercial pilot, but he had to give up his idea due to financial problem back then. NOW, he owns some of the biggest restaurant chains in Adelaide and also some Pokies along with few other big businesses around Australia which I heard of, but am not sure what they are exactly. I hope I have been able to clear this point to this extent. I myself havent got a clue how much money he has in his account, but ....just to sum it up, a beamer 7 series with a chauffeur is always at his service. anyway, my point is not to prove how rich he is, but what he wanted to do with "his" money. You seem to have confused my thread and been saying as if "I" wanted to buy a Caravan, which is not the case. ;)

Onan, I hope you got your answer to this as well.

Take care
Richie