Will this work? (Wireless network)

[Ausatco]

My gear:-

D-Link DSL-200 USB ADSL modem. (not a router/switch, just a modem.) It has a phone line connection and a USB connection to the 'puter. That's all.

Desktop is a P4 running XP Home.

Laptop is a P4 running XP home.

Both have 10/100 ethernet built in.

They are networked in my home with 10/100 ethernet using the required crossover cable. The desktop is the host 'puter for Internet Connection Sharing.

It works flawlessly.

I want to get rid of the crossover cable and use a wireless connection so I can roam the house with my laptop and stay connected. I want to spend as little as possible. I do not foresee the need to ever have a bigger set-up than this.

I propose to use a D-Link DWL-900AP+ wireless access point connected to the desktop and a D_Link DWL 650+ PCMCIA cardbus adapter for the laptop. These are 802/11b items, which, as a pair, can support max 22Mbits/sec and 256 bit WEP encryption.

The 900AP+ is not a router/switch/modem, just an access point. There would be a network cable (crossover or plain, don't know yet) connecting the desktop with the 900AP+ access point

From there I'd like to think that radio waves will simply take the place of the cross-over cable between my desktop and laptop and all will work as it does now, including Internet Connection Sharing.

I'm told that the peer-to-peer transactions will be no probs. Good. But I have conflicting info about the likely success of Internet Connection Sharing over the wireless link I've proposed. Most people who say it might not or will not work tell me to get a combined hub/switch/modem, but that doubles the cost and that's what I want to avoid. I get the feeling they're trying to sell me something that's beyond my needs, perhaps to their benefit.

Sure, it may be more robust, commercial and with potential for expansion. I want reliability, but I don't need commercial kit (this is for household domestic use) and I do not foresee the need for any more than the two computers I already have in my setup.

What does the collective wisdom of the readers of this forum suggest?

Will it work - particularly the Internet Conection Sharing (ICS)? (I realise I will have to have the desktop switched on to make the system work - the desktop will, in fact, be the router as well as the host for ICS.)

Or do I need to go the modem/wireless router/switch route?

Thanks in advance,

Edited to add: The D-Link tech folks seem to think that there might be problems within Windows with this proposal. Yes it can be made to work, but it may be difficult and they can only offer limited Windows-oriented support (but full product support! - I would have thought they'd go pretty much hand in hand to get a system working, but that's beside the point.) I get the impresson that their reservations were not specifically to do with the D-Link products I proposed to use, but with my intended generic setup.

It's that caveat that makes me seek your input.

AA

[ORAC]

See if this (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/columns/bowman/02april08.asp) answers your questions.

[fobotcso]

Ausatco, without a detailed read of ORAC's link, I think it more or less gives the answer.

You don't need the AP900+ from D-Link. If you just put a DWL-520+ in the Desktop, you'll have an ad-hoc, peer to peer network equivalent to having a Cross-over Cat5/Cat6 cable.

But I'm finding that the penetration through the ancient walls of Fobotcso Folly is poor so I've invested in the AP900+ as a repeater. Haven't had time to sort out the configuration yet so have to resort to peculiar positioning of the laptop on the arm of the settee balanced on the Readers' Digest Atlas of the World. Polarisation of the Tx/Rx seems important. That sexy little aerial on the back of the card or Router Box seems to like to be on its side when talking to the laptop.

[Ausatco]

ORAC, fobs, thank you very much, you've made my day.

With your info at hand I rang the Oz D-Link office to discuss my proposed set-up (I found out previously that there are issues with my DSL 200 modem that need to be considered). It is clear now that the 520+ is the way to go for me, and in being able to make that clear decision I've saved more than OZ$100.00 over yesterday's draft proposal that might have had problems.

It pays to shop around for both prices and information. My project cost has come down from $580 for what I was first told that I would need to $214 for this much simpler and perfectly adequate system.

Fobs, I'm attending the door after the horse has bolted, but did you consider a high-gain indoor antenna for your 520+ to address signal penetration before outlaying your hard-earned on the 900+? D-Link make a number of them suitable for the 520+

Edit: The guy who suggested the antenna as a budget way of improving the range/penetration of the 520+ signal said it cost about AUD$70.00. I checked with an on-line discount retailer. He was wrong - that's just the cable. The antenna is about $200.00, for a total of about $270.00 which makes it a not very cost effective option after all.

Thinks ... The little dipole on the 900+ might not improve your coverage, fobs, the transmitter power on both the 900+ and the 520+ are the same, as are the antennae and their gain. I hope you prove me wrong.

BTW, fobs, what are the walls of your house made of, to cause rapid signal loss? (Or how big is your house? :D ) Mine is 2 storey, timber frame and upper floor, plasterboard interior walls and ceilings, brick exterior. Shouldn't present a problem, one hopes.

Cheers

AA

[fobotcso]

AA, that's good. Thanks for the info back too. As I get further into the wireless situation I 'm finding that I can get along quite well as it is. My mis-spent years as a Ham (G0??? and VE6???) help a bit. I'm interested in the power output comparison.

Fobs Folly is an ancient Victorian/Edwardian edifice with exterior and interior brick walls throughout and high ceilings of about 9ft. Not very big (in number of rooms) and on two floors. It's the slant angle of communication that tests the range. 2.4GHz travelling at right angles through a brick wall doesn't attenuate too much. But at 45 or 60 degrees attenuation naturally increases geometrically. Remember it's the attentuation with range alone that helps to Wireless Networking so successful and helps security. Otherwise there's be a lot more Network clashing.

One final point that you can read in the D-Link blurb but in case you miss it; you'll be told to load the software before plugging in the hardware. Also when configuring the Wireless Network be sure to un-check the box that says "allow Windows to configure my Wireless Network".

Keep us posted on the final result.

[Ausatco]

Fobs,

Re the power output - specs for the 520+ are here (http://www.dlink.com.au/products/wireless/dwl520+/), and for the 900AP+, here (http://www.dlink.com.au/products/wireless/dwl900ap+/).

Note that the D-Link specs for the 900AP+ say an antenna gain of 2dB, nothing quoted for the 520+, yet, in appearance, they seem similar. On another site which quoted D-Link specs, I saw 2dB for both antennae, so who knows?

It seems I'm a bit hobbled in my options with the cheap USB modem I already own, but I'm pretty sure now that I can make the 520+ do what I need it to do. Just hope it will penetrate my paper walls :O. Slant range to upstairs may be a factor as you've identified, but as I say, my house is not of the 2 foot stone wall variety. Timber frame and plasterboard walls, timber trusses between floors with plasterboard ceiling downstairs and timber floors (actually, compressed chipboard) upstairs. 100 metre indoor range is in the specs, so hopefully my hacienda will not present a problem. :D

The kit arrives tomorrow. Will let you know how I go. And thanks for the tip re software installation.

Cheers

AA

[Ausatco]

Does it work??

NO IT #$@%^& DOESN'T.

I've been at this for most of the day. Hardware and drivers appear to be installed ok. (Latest drivers downloaded and used.) Both 'puters report an "excellent" signal strength. Both wireless cards are set to the same parameters. Both show little bits of transmitted and received signal, so I think they are talking to each other. One bit bothers me - the power led on the PCMCIA 650+ is not alight, though the "link" led blinks every now and then, in keeping with the windows that report Tx'ed and Rx'ed data.

But I cannot, for the life of me, get even the basic network to work over wireless, let alone Internet Connection Sharing.

Went back to Ethernet, all ok. Back again to wireless, no change, it refuses to work. Stuff me, it's just radio waves instead of a wire (ie, WIRELESS!!!) It can't be that b l o o d y hard, but it is.

Right now I'm just about ready to chuck it in, send the kit back and tell Wintel, D-Link and the IT industry to stuff it. It's doubtful it's worth this kind of frustration.

Before I slash me wrists, anyone got any clues. Please.

AA

[ORAC]

With fear of offending fobotcso, try with the Windows box ticked.

[Ausatco]

Tried that, Orac, no joy.

AA

[ORAC]

Troubleshooting Internet Connection Sharing in Windows XP (http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=308006)

Windows XP Internet Connection Sharing (http://www.practicallynetworked.com/sharing/xp_ics/).

Troubleshooting Internet Connection Sharing (ICS) (http://www.infinisource.com/techfiles/ics-troubleshooting.html)

[fobotcso]

STOP! Don't do it AUSATCO. Life is good, really, and we can talk this through.

Your 650 could be faulty, especially if the PWR LED won't light. But then why would you get the Link LED blinking...?

We are talking "ad hoc" in the configuration window Wireless Mode of both units and not "infrastructure" aren't we?

We've done "rescan"?

With all the settings at Manufacturers Default including the same SSID (check basics such as spelling) 4x config, Data Encryption unchecked until we get some contact, I can only think that one of the hardwares is faulty.

Perhaps you could read off the screens in your next post.

An afterthought. You may have overlooked the fact that for Peer to Peer you can't rely on a DHCP Server to allocate TCP/IP addresses. So for each 'puter you should allocate these as per the instructions on pages 8-11 of the Quick Installation Guide. Mine are 192.168.0.25 and 26 and the Subnet Mask is the usual 255.255.255.0. If you haven't done this you'll get the correct radio indications but the beasts won't talk to each other.

Hoping Tourniquets not required.

[Ausatco]

fobs, ORAC,

It works!!!! :D

I'm writing this from my laptop in my family room with nary a wire in sight.

Your help prompted a few educated questions to D-Link's Oz office, which, in the first place, wasn't fully forthcoming on all the details. B a s t a r d s! When you sound like a hopeless newbie (which, in the area of networking and wireless I am) they don't want to know you - I guess they think it's just going to be too hard. But if you show you have a few clues and still have a real problem, then they'll respond. It's amazing what information educated questions will elicit and I thank you both for that.

There are a few rough edges (eg, I have yet to sort out Zone Alarm), but wrists are intact :O and life is good again.

Again, thanks so much for your help, both of you.

Cheers

AA

[fobotcso]

Well done, AA, and Thanks for your Thanks.

Your D-Link.au site gives more info than the .uk site about Power outputs etc. The 650 and 520 are stated to be 15dBm. (Relative to what they don't say). They chatter away happily (Peer to Peer/ad-hoc) though thick walls and floors with "Excellent Signal Strength" in the Taskbar.

When I change the setup to "infrastructure" on the ADSL Modem/Router (stated to be 14dBm), the signal strength drops right off and contact through the 650 (for PPRuNing etc) is intermittent. The Router (604+) and the 520 in the Desktop are almost co-located. When I get the time, I too will be on the 'phone to support.

[ORAC]

So what exactly was causing the problem and what exactly fixed it? Might come in handy in future....

[Ausatco]

I'm in ad-hoc mode, now upstairs, as far away in my house and through as many walls and floors as it's possible to be, on battery power on my laptop and all seems to be well. One 'puter reports "excellent" signal, the other reports "very good". Tomorrow I will do a range test from the adjoining park.

The manuals on the disks that came with my 650 and 520 discuss building materials and slant-range distances. I get the impression that brick and stone walls, or those with metal components in them, tackled at an angle from upstairs to downstairs could present a problem. You might have to go for a high-gain antenna or two just to get through your Victorian brick. I think I have an advantage with plasterboard and timber internals in the house. As you suggest, check it out with support. Good luck.

Many older houses here have convict brick ;), and many newer homes are forsaking timber frames for steel (cost effective, resistant to termites which are a real problem here), with, I presume, adverse signal attenuation properties for our purposes. If you would like me to ask our Oz support folks about propogation probs, drop me a line.

Now for me it's onward to encryption and Zone Alarm configuration. (So far, each time I've re-enabled Zone Alarm I've killed my connection.)

Cheers

AA

[Ausatco]

Orac, it's a good question. I tried so many things I think I lost track a bit in my head, and also confused the 'puters with so many system restores, etc. What a blessing that facility is!!

Basically, and it seems obvious now,

[list=1]
I restored both machines to known good system checkpoints. On each I went back to a point before I started screwing around with this.
uninstalled antivirus on both machines
deactivated firewall (Zone Alarm, only used on ICS host machine)
on D-Link's eventual advice, disabled (not uninstalled) ethernet on both machines
ditto, removed network bridge on both machines
re-started both machines
Installed wireless driver software in both machines, but did not re-start on the prompts.
Switched off both, inserted hardware and re-started to complete installation
used this link (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/columns/bowman/02april08.asp) to set up the ad hoc connection on both 'puters. (XP has a DHCP server in it, so auto IP adressing works, so you can use Windows to configure the wireless network settings.)
Then used this link to MS KB article 306126 (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;en-us;306126&) to manually configure Internet Connection Sharing.
Then disabled "use to Windows Configure wireless network settings" so I could more readily control the D-Link hardware options through the D-Link utilities.
[/list=1]
This summary makes it look so easy, but believe me, it wasn't. I think the problem was the AV software and Zone Alarm. The AV was silent and ZA prompted for info at various points, but according to the D-Link help people that did not necessarily configure it properly during the set-up process.

It's all still a bit flakey, though. I've had to re-boot the laptop partway through an internet browsing session, and at the moment, while I have Internet Connection Sharing working ok, I cannot make the 'puters see each other's drives, though I could earlier. The network must be basically sound to have ICS working, so sharing drives must be just a mouse click away somewhere.

Zone Alarm and encryption is OK though :D

Next step is to re-install antivirus - Trend Micro PC Cillin 2002.

At each successful step I have made a system restore point - helps no end when things go wrong. I imagine defrag will get a workoput later on.

Do Mac users have this angst????

Cheers

AA

Edited to insert items 4, 5 & 6

[Ausatco]

This is wierd.

Internet Connection Sharing still works, in fact it flies, so the wireless network is basically sound.

But I've lost all other access between computers. Cannot share files, folders or printers, though I could last night.

Have system restored to the point where it was working last night, but that hasn't fixed it.

Orac, fobs, any ideas on this one?

AA

[ORAC]

ICS Does Not Install File and Printer Sharing By Default (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=http://support.microsoft.com:80/support/kb/articles/Q227/1/41.ASP&NoWebContent=1).

Also temporarily disable Zone Alarm and see if you can share. If so, you need to adjust the firewall settings.

[Ausatco]

Here we are a month later, but a fair bit of water has passed under the bridge ... A spot of leave, higher priority stuff (read "the list on the fridge" :* , visiting family, etc, etc ....)

And a format and reinstall of XP. I tried to use the recovery disc thoughtfully provided by Medion, but I had fiddled with partition sizes with Partition Magic and that killed Medion's recovery system ...

I got to the parlous state of a reinstall due to overuse of XP's system restore. Over the weeks I ended up completely filling the C drive with System Restore data - wasn't aware of it until the machine ground to a halt.

The forced clean start has worked a treat - all is now well and getting the wireless network and ICS up and running on a fresh OS was a breeze. Sadly, I do not know what went wrong earlier on - only the deceased installation of XP knows that.

You Mac users may justifiably smirk. :*

AA

[PPRuNe Towers]

Not smirking Ausatco and not banging the big Mac drum.

You instinctively know what my answer will be. There are no lists such as you laboriously developed at the top of the page to pass on.

If playing with PC's is your hobby and you get a buzz out of this kind of problem solving that's fine. This forum relies on the goodwill of folks like that.

However, if you place any importance on your time and you want to sit at the computer productively you're simply using the wrong platform and operating system. I've built computers from Altair through Research Machines 8088, Sinclair and on to the earliest Pentium 4's. I don't any more. I guess each of you finds out why in their own time.

Wirelessly yours,
Rob Lloyd

[Ausatco]

Third para is me, Towers:O Play with it until it breaks, then fix it and try to remember the lessons learned in the process. Hint: always print every article you view in the MS Knowledge Base.

Thanks again to Orac and fobotsco for providing direction, links and food for thought when needed.

Cheers

AA

[fobotcso]

Thanks, Ausatco. You said:

Play with it until it breaks, then fix it and try to remember the lessons learned in the process.
Did you ever get that link up to 100mbps?

I guess that's me too. But "playing" is really seeing how much I can get out of the beasts and keep them going. For instance, how well does a Mac cope with a laptop on the move accessing e-mail from a hard-wired or wireless LAN, normal dial-up by wired telepone, or mobile phone using cable, Bluetooth or Infra-red link. Each one of these has its uses; to create a system that is robust enough for an inexpert user to switch from one the another seamlessly is a challenge.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Fobotso,

I'll give you a taste with laptop and lan first.

Arrive at hotel - this is real life not salesmanship so I will be specific. The Mariott, Torrance, Cailifornia. Bring Mac back from sleep mode, connect ethernet cable to room box. Browser automatically fires up with ISP page and I click to accept the 10 bucks per 24 hour charge. That's it - all done.

Wireless Lan is identical but without the need to attach the cable. Often charges to pay as well but I do know pilots who trawl the streets of cities furtively seeking free access............

E-mail works seamlessly but if an ISP is set to block it unless through their server a dialog box allows you to select another server to force it out or put theirs in. Of course, none of this effects inbound mail or using webmail programs.

Obviously main point is zero configuration for lan, wireless etc and all built in before delivery.

Rather than prattle on about all the other methods which are essentially the same, get to an Apple site and search the knowledge bases with the word 'Rendezvous,' this being their trade name for the seamless attachment of the operating system to any other outside source whether wired, wireless, bluetooth or IR.

Just to be absolutely straight with you; although the software and aerials are built into every Mac, should you chose to use, say, the Bluetooth system within you do have to buy an adapter for around the 25 quid mark to transmit and receive the data.

The experience is invisible to the user - I'm switching between cable adsl, copper phone line and wireless and, other than the obvious speed changes with the dial up, my browsers and mail haven't the faintest idea which conduit is sending and receiving the data. I have to open sub programs to see what's happening.

Regards
Rob

[Ausatco]

fobs,

My D-Link gear is good for only 22mbps - I did this on a budget!! It only cost me OZ$220.00 (but a lot of my spare time.)

I reliably get that speed over a reasonable distance, but I haven't tried a range vs speed check yet - maybe tomorrow.

As a test of system performance, I put a DVD in each computer in turn and then played it from the other over the link. That worked ok - each played as if it was being run on a local drive.

Then I played them simultaneously (each from the other computer!) That worked too, but both were a bit choppy with vid jerkiness and sound dropouts.

Some numbers you might be able to offer an opinion on ...

Movie A by itself (Eagles in concert, colour, stereo sound) - upload 10600kbps, download 105kbps, total bandwidth 10700kbps or 10.7mbps

Movie B by itself, played in the other direction on the link - (old B+W relic, mono and mono) - upload 6000kbps, download 65kbps, total bandwidth 6065 kbps, or about 6.1mbps

If one were to play the movies simultaneously, each from the other computer over the link, it would be reasonable to expect a bandwidth requirement equal to the sum of the totals, wouldn't it? ie about 16.8mbps, well within the 22mbps capacity of the equipment.

When I played them that way the up and down channels were the same, as you'd expect, but only about 6mbps each, for a total bandwidth of 12mbps - significantly less than I had expected and well under the link's maximum. Both movies were choppy.

Any ideas why that might be? ie, why the unexpectedly reduced data throughput (which, one assumes, would cause the choppiness)?

(I'm not going to lose too much sleep over this - it's a weird configuration that one wouldn't normally use, but now I'm curious! )

Cheers

AA

[Onan the Clumsy]

Looks like I'll be reading this in more detail later.

I'm trying to do some pretty basic stuff, but not being too successfull yet. Just a desktop with a DSL home portal that all seems to work ok and I'm trying to hook up my laptop through a wireless card.

I think I need to run a mainframe at home. That way I can have a little more success. I just don't know how I'll pay for the staff though.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Woof! Just been on the phone to the Phillipines for an hour, but it works. Not sure why it didn't work after the initial setup though. Ah well.

[Ausatco]

Well done Onan - glad it worked so easily for you.

B L O O D Y H E L L, I have no luck. I just got this wireless network perfect, had it so for all of a day and a half, and then the hard drive on the desktop died.:{ Dead as a dodo, nothing recoverable. Fortunately I had a fairly recent backup and didn't lose much data, and the drive's under warranty, but I really did NOT need the inconvenience.

Anyway, back up and running now after a system rebuild.

Fobs, that bandwidth thing a couple of posts ago ... It's not a bandwidth issue. Apparently the link is only half duplex, so it sends a packet of one movie in one direction, then a packet of the other in the other direction. It can't send in both directions simultaneously. The jerkiness comes from the interruptions in the data streams, not from bandwidth limitations.

Cheers

AA

[fobotcso]

Just a quickie to acknowledge all the info people are passing me but no time to absorb from/reply too as I seem to up to my neck in alligators at the moment.

I'll murder that fridge door and its list of jobs....

[peg20]

I know this doesn't help Ausatco, but I thought it might be useful to others in the future.

I recently got ADSL put on my phone line, and needed to get all "modem"ed up. I use Linux primarily, and Windows doesn't quite work like it should on the hardware I have. So I decided that I would get an ADSL modem/router rather than a USB or other modem. That way, you don't need to worry about drivers and so on for the ADSL modem; you just configure your ethernet card as usual, and then configure the model using a web browser over the direct connection.

The routers usually have all the NAT functionality ("connection sharing") built in, so you can just plug another machine in. Mine has a built-in firewall, DHCP server, DNS proxy, port forwarding etc. Oh, and did I mention it is also a 802.11b wireless access point?

Because it is an entirely separate box with all the functionality internal, I didn't have to worry about getting it to work with strange selection of hardware and operating systems.

I know you are all saying "yeah, yeah, but I didn't want to spend that much", but this is the best bit: It cost me 65pounds all-in from www.ebuyer.com. I know that since then, they have had a different model in for less than this (about 50 iirc). At this price, though, they don't last long, and disappear of their website after a couple of weeks.

HTH someone...

Cheers

p

[Ausatco]

Thanks Peg, I probably should have gone a similar route, but cost was a major consideration for me. I wanted wireless on top of the ADSL modem/router, and that package doesn't come cheap.

Minor inconveniences aside (like the HDD on the desktop self-destructing, a disaster unrelated to my networking efforts), all is now well and my wireless network is A1 perfect for me, though perhaps a bit limited for others.

I learned a lot getting it working, thanks to help from this forum.

AA

[peg20]

The main point of my post was that it DOES include wireless.

I don't actually use the wireless side at the moment, but since the box was so cheap, I got it anyway. I thought I could always sell on my unused bandwidth to my neighbours :)

[Ausatco]

Ya lucky sod, Peg. Even allowing for currency conversion, you paid about half what we'd pay for a wireless set-up like that out here.

Now I'm trying to get fax to work over the network. So far it doesn't want to play ...

Best

AA