UAL to file Chapter 11 this week.....

[TMelland]

According to many medium sized station managers: UAL will file for chapter 11, cut 25 medium sized stations, and cut countless small stations.. .Is this a way to avoid all the current union problems they are having or is this a wake-up call that the no-frills are winning the airline war. Continental and Northwest are the only two majors with enough excess aircraft right now to make a dent in the passenger surplus if this rumour is true.... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Airbubba]

Sure might be true. UAL is losing about $15 million a day. I remember UAL claiming that the government shouldn't offer assistance to Pan Am.

"Don't worry son, the government won't let United go out of business..."

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: Airbubba ]</p>

[non sched]

Business Week mag is apparently reporting that United has hidden several billion dollars in debt off the books. Their accounting firm is Arthur Anderson. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[N380UA]

There seems to be a trend showing at AA (Arthur Andersen).

[Huck]

Could this be psychological warfare in advance of the big pilot/management pow-wow this month?

[Copenhagen]

As pilots are the largest shareholders, they have the most to lose here

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;Business Week mag is apparently reporting that United has hidden several billion dollars in debt off the books. Their accounting firm is Arthur Anderson.&lt;&lt;

From the "Oy Vay!" department:

"...United Airlines Inc. parent UAL Corp.'s (UAL ) published balance sheet for 2000 shows $5 billion of long-term debt. But only a footnote describes the bulk of its lease payments, which Baggaley estimates have a present value of $12.7 billion, due over 26 years on 233 airplanes..."

<a href="http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_04/b3767704.htm" target="_blank">http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_04/b3767704.htm</a>

[dallas dude]

Sincerely hope United emerge on whatever "other side" they have planned.

As usual, the pilots will probably be publicly villified for bringing United to the brink and Goodwin's (BADwin?) tenure and continual mismanagement will be long forgotten.

Get ready to take it in the shorts (again)!

[fadec_primary_channel]

Co-incidentally overheard two UAL employees today at LHR one in civvies was heard to say " well after the anouncement on Thursday" and with that the other employee shut them up realising people could hear. It would appear that something could be announced, but this is all conjecture on my part and linking it with this thread. ?? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

BTW What constitutes a medium sized station as far as UAL is concerned??

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: fadec_primary_channel ]</p>

[Donkey Duke]

Tim Melland,

Wait, weren't you the same guy that said Alaska. .and Frontier were going to announce a merger last. .Thursday? Where do you get your info? Anyways.. I wouldn't be surprised if United were going to file. .chapter 11---that would give them the right to break a/c leases, and break contract agreements.. .The one thing everyone else has to worry about is. .HOW LONG United stays in Chap 11. They could pull the rest of the industry down with them---lowering fares to bring in any money needed for their short term debts, and the others would have to follow suit. I know Delta is pushing for legislation limiting the amount of time an airline. .can "Hold" in the bankruptcy holding pattern.. .Regardless, I don't think United would ever "die"---it will eventually rebound---but by that time the US Majors will consist of Comair, ACA, Skywest, Southwest, and Airtran.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Roadtrip]

Baloney.

[AA SLF]

I'm with Roadtrip on this one!. .dAAvid -

[LAVDUMPER]

Hey Tim,

Donkey Duke is right - your credibility is SHOT...

I didn't see any Frontier/Alaska merger headlines - but you were soooooooo sure of yourself. Yeah, this is supposed to be a rumor network, but c'mon, show us the facts, or shoot your LAME sources. Who's next - Air Jamaica and Horizon?

Good luck to all of the United pilots out there. I think it's inevitable that wages will have to be slashed on all fronts - including mechanics and management. Look for more RJs clogging up the airways....

Cheers

[ironbutt57]

Just another attempt to screw the people who made them what they are.....the employees....let's wait and see <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[shon7]

I don't see UAL "perishing" or filing Chapter 11 in the near future. They have made some moves that will help them for years to come most important being the Star Alliance and the one with Lufthansa.

On the international front United will hold its own, on the national market as mentioned before one can expect to see more RJs and elimination of unprofitable route.

One possible restructuring is spinning of the international and domestic operations, however this will not be an easy task.

Lets see- only time will tell.

[Airbubba]

&gt;&gt;I don't see UAL "perishing" or filing Chapter 11 in the near future.

From today's Chicago Tribune:

WASHINGTON -- A 30-day cooling off period was declared Sunday by a presidential panel as talks between United Airlines and its mechanics collapsed.

The action came after the Presidential Emergency Board sided with United, noting, "The company persuasively asserts that, unless the economics of the industry improve beyond any reasonable expectation, these efforts are simply not enough, by themselves, to stave off reorganization under the bankruptcy laws at some future time."...

<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0201210149jan21.story?coll=chi%2Dbusiness%2Dhed" target="_blank">http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0201210149jan21.story?coll=chi%2Dbusiness%2Dhed</a>

[LevelFive]

“reorganization under the bankruptcy laws”

Sounds like an opportunity for graduates of the Frank Lorenzo school of business.

[Donkey Duke]

OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH SNAP! SNAP!

. .Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[GlueBall]

The true story is self evident: If business will not improve very soon, major surgery, including Chap 11, will be required. Because no company, no matter how big, can continue operations while burning $20+ Million per day. Unlike Gordon Bethune at Continental who slashed operations and employes (12,000) immediately after Sept 11; UAL management vacillated, took too long to cut back too little. And despite UAL's belated management shakeup, the company already has lost its momentum. Pumping $100+ Million into Avolar, the business jet division, has caused management to lose focus of its core business. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[cyclops]

I ca understand UAL going under. I have just been on a trip with them and everything went wrong, mostly concerned with late departures, unhelpful staff, staff who didn't turn up to work at all and bad organisation. Will never fly with them again.

[LAVDUMPER]

I know a United pilot who flew 727s as an FO up until the 727s were retired on November 1st. He is still being paid for 75 hours per month (or something near that) and not flying AT ALL... His United pay was already in the "high" range while he was flying - and now he is sitting and still being paid that same high rate - since November 1st...

Wow, that's got to be expensive. No wonder United is tanking...

Good luck to all involved!

. .Cheers

[Raas767]

UAL will apply for Federal Loan Guarantees before they file for chapter 11. Remember. If an airline analyst said it, it aint gonna happen! Those guys are morons. If anybody is over paid in aviation it's those guys!

[Cyclic Hotline]

The raise for mechanics may be the most pressing personnel issue, and may well determine the outcome of the entire airline. A strike at a time like this would be disasterous for any business. It is really quite amazing that the combination of events in the last 12 months has developed into a "perfect storm"!

The pressure being put upon the stock and bond prices of UAL, may result in a liquidity and credit squeeze, forcing them into Bankruptcy, solely as a means of escaping crushing financial burden.

After the melt-down of Enron, there is going to be considerable caution exercised by any financial institution in propping up a business that is suffering serious financial difficulties, and the possibility of industrial action, thus taking the fate of the company out of the hands of the management.

Dangerous times for UAL.

[polzin]

There is a special meeting of the board of directors of United today to discuss the 34% wage increase demand of the mechanics. I stopped flying them several years ago when I had problems 6 times in a row on their flights. They are just sooo special. Think not ? Just ask them.

[LAVDUMPER]

Hey Tim,

Heard anything new? Do you have any opinions? What's the latest word since you have the best contacts? Any facts?

Still out there Tim???????????????

What about the impending Alaska and Frontier merger - anymore news on that front? Any confirmations?

. .Cheers

[reportfurther]

You sure it wasn't K-MART you heard...... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[737type]

Well it looks like UAL mechanics are getting a raise:

CHICAGO (AP) -- United Airlines agreed Tuesday to accept a presidential panel's recommendation of a 37 percent pay raise for the carrier's nearly 13,000 mechanics.. . . .The announcement could end a long labor dispute with its mechanics, who had threatened to strike.

United announced its decision after calling an emergency meeting Tuesday.

The recommendation by a specially appointed Presidential Emergency Board, which said there was "no justification'' in not giving mechanics their first raise since 1994, was a victory for the mechanics' union and put the onus on the carrier.

"Although it has expressed serious reservations with detailed recommendations contained in the PEB report, United today has decided to accept the report's recommendations for contract settlement,'' United said in a statement. The company said it would have no further comment Tuesday.

[Donkey Duke]

OOOOOOOHHHH SNAP! SNAP!

Hey wait, that's good news. But, I am sure the pilots and the Flt attendants are gonna have to pay for it. But you know what? I think mechanics deserve the raise. UAL management has been screwing with them for years. It's time for management to understand that you can't run an airline without quality people. But, I hope they. .have time to spend the money before UAL files for Chap 11. Let's hope it all works out.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[aviator]

I have been watching this thread with some interest since I am close to the events taking place. That is, like in being affected - not by being behind the scenes.

Let me just say that big decisions do not happen in a vacuum. My understanding is that there is a conciderable amount of activity behind the scenes. All the employee groups are involved.

My take on it is that this sets the baseline for what is in our future - likely concessions to make sure United remains a viable and strong carrier.

If this is in fact in our future at United, anyone that has been around for a while must know that other carriers will soon follow.

Another likely event will be a departure of persons involved in United going from being the at or near the world's most profitable carrier to facing serious economic hardship in less than two years.

Many of the comments made here have been understanding - others disappointing. All I can say is that most of us at United are happy and proud to be here and gladly do our professional best to run a safe and friendly airline.

[BackSeatPilot]

Why should the fact that UAL engage in lease arrangements for their aircraft be a cause for concern? Is it any different from a vast number of airlines? <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> I thought it was pretty common practice.

BSP

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: BackSeatPilot ]

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: BackSeatPilot ]</p>

[polzin]

Aviator..... United is a great airline !!!! Until something goes wrong. Have you ever had to fly them several times as a mere passenger ? I have not seen a superior attitude from some, not all, employees like this since Pan Am.

[spudskier]

polzin -- I completely agree, I almost always fly with them (I'm an aviation student right now, call me a newbie if you will, but I have a lot of flight time as a passenger! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) and I've had nothing but great experiences with United.

It does come down to a matter of being courteous to the gate agents, etc... A smile can go a long way with them since they see so few and deal with pissed passengers all day long.

On the other hand whomever replies to the e-mails sent to their commercial web site could use a lesson in manners...

I hope to see UAL flourish and get past these hard times.

[Airbubba]

Looks like UAL is going to settle with the IAM, then ask for the money back from all the unions. It that doesn't work, they file chapter 11 and take it from there...

. ._________________________________________________

. .January 23, 2002

UAL Directors Decide to Accept Proposals. .Of Presidential Panel to End Labor Dispute

By SUSAN CAREY . .Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

CHICAGO -- UAL Corp.'s United Airlines said that despite "serious reservations," it decided to accept costly recommendations made by a federal panel aiming to end a labor dispute between the company and its mechanics union without a devastating strike.

As a result, the International Association of Machinists said it will put the same recommendations to a vote of its 15,000 members in the next few weeks. If they reject the plan, they could strike Feb. 20 unless Congress imposes a settlement on them.

But it is unlikely the mechanics will turn down the recommendations, issued Sunday by a three-member panel President Bush appointed in December to forestall a work stoppage. The Presidential Emergency Board rejected United's position that the group's wages should be frozen until the carrier returns to profitability.

Instead, the board endorsed sizable raises -- for instance, a total 37% increase payable immediately for a veteran mechanic -- that would bring the group's wages to the top of the industry. The panel's numbers came within the ballpark of what the union itself had sought in more than two years of negotiations.

Alarmed by the prospect of higher labor costs, investors knocked down UAL's shares Tuesday. The stock lost 9.7%, or $1.55, to trade at $14.45 in 4 p.m. composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange.

Prior to the company's announcement, Standard & Poor's Corp. Tuesday cut its rating on UAL's corporate credit rating, already in "speculative" territory, to single-B-plus from double-B-minus, and also lowered its ratings on a number of other UAL and United debt issues and other securities. The corporate credit rating is a benchmark of a company's risk of default. S&P cited, among other things, "substantial ongoing losses and lack of progress in crucial negotiations aimed at containing the airline's high labor costs." United declined to comment on S&P's action.

United said the labor committee of UAL's board voted to accept the federal panel's report as the basis for a contract settlement despite "serious reservations" that it declined to explain. A spokesman for the Machinists union said the recommendations will now go to its members, "who will have the final say."

Jack Creighton, a retired paper-company executive and outside UAL director brought in as chief executive last fall, has been trying to persuade employees to voluntarily embrace pay cuts to help the company through its financial problems. Without that relief, United told the presidential board, it may be unable to stave off a bankruptcy-court filing.

But the mechanics insisted they wouldn't entertain any concessions until their pay caught up with other groups at United, who are paid top industry scales. The Machinists union also has 30,000 United ground workers in their second year of talks aimed at a new contract. Until those employees are brought up to top pay, it is unlikely that group would be open to Mr. Creighton's pleadings either.

The CEO hasn't quantified the savings sought but did say recently that the overall amount needs to be "several billion" dollars "over the next few years." The presidential board said it supports a financial-recovery plan in which workers cut their wages, so long as all domestic United workers participate proportionately. Some union strategists say privately that such givebacks are inevitable but warn that members will have to ratify such big changes to their contracts.

The presidential panel recommended that top pay of a United mechanic be raised to $35.14 when the new contract is signed. That would put the group a few cents an hour ahead of mechanics at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines, currently the top paid. But because United can ill-afford to pay in one cash sum the difference between what the group would have earned and what it did earn back to July 2000, when the previous contract became open for renewal, the federal panel suggested that "retro pay" expense be deferred and paid in eight quarterly installments starting in April 2003.

[Andreas in SAF]

It's interesting to read about the many reasons why United (and other US airlines too) have such financial problems. . . . .One major reason, which is never mentioned here, but which I am very well aware of - being a travel agency owner - is that the US airlines have alienated their distribution system, by not only cutting commissions to near zero since 1995, but also bullying the travel agency community with their arrogant behavior (and- United is one of the leaders, trying to run travel aegncies out of business).

You see- when people are afraid of flying then they will not buy an airline ticket just because there is a special deal on the internet - they still will not fly. But- when sitting down with another person, your favorite travel agent, and discussing your fears and concerns, you may very well end up with an airline ticket to a far away destination. Some of us are fearful fliers ourselves, but can persuade customers to fly, since we can symphathize with them. But - we can't do it for free.

Example: The cruise lines have lowered rates and increased commissions, to lure travalers back after September 11, and the ships are sailing full. They know that you get more business by incentivizing your sales force.

Airlines, especially since they got the 5 billions from the taxpayers, behave more arrogantly than ever, and have actually increased their hostility against travel agents, since September 11.

The result is absolutely no motivation for us to sell their services. Example: being originally from Austria I loved selling ski vacations to the Alps. Now, if someone books a ski vacation, we mostly send them to Colorado (they drive!!!) . .and we book them a nice condo.

Result: Customer does not worry about flying, our travel agency earns a commission and can stay in business, we avoid shabby treatment by the airline, and - airline has just lost another sale.

Show me ANY other business where the principal treats their agents so badly! There isn't any!

The bean counters at United and the other US airlines think that above lost sale was actually good, because it saved them the commission to the agent (average 3.5%!).

Businesses like that deserve to go out of business!

[TMelland]

To all of those who did not like my rumor:. .Cutting and pasting news clips is not rumor its news and for the most part factual.....If that is what you like then visit airliners.net and sign up for e-mail airline news.. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> :)

So we all know UAL has agreed to pay....Seems a bit quick...YES? Well what I hear is that UAL accepted and is going to keep this as their own top news story....So at the same time the upper management can cover their asses and shred some papers. etc..Sound familiar....If you don't agree then why did they accept and the mx weren't even pulling crap with the flight schedule yet......

And the word is still cut cities, cut flights, cut more people.......

[redtail]

Typically International Association of Machinists (IAM) contracts look good (to union members) in the high-light sheets passed around before a contract vote for the membership and in the press releases, but lose their gloss when the actual contract books are published and distributed to the membership. So far the press releases make it sound like a good deal, but the devil tends to be in the small print. In the past UAL have negotiated impressive contracts, only to take concessions immediately after signing. Hopefully the IAM will pass out full contracts to the membership to read before they vote.

If this all works out as advertised by the IAM, well then, good for the UAL union members, the IAM has finally learned their lesson about representing their members.

[polzin]

Spudskier.............. Sould you be from Idaho ? I say again, its a good airline until something goes wrong, and it often does. 6 times in a row I had big problems, thought it might be just me ,checked with numerous friends to find out I was not alive. Often they do show a superior attitude. On the other hand I have had great service from Continental WHEN THERE WERE PROBLEMS.

[Donkey Duke]

There goes Tim Melland--back peddaling again. So, what is the big announcement set for tomorrow? That is what you said. Who is feeding you this info? Thank God you are not my stock broker.

Andreas in SAF---so, you own a travel agency. And you don't think anyone in Santa Fe would want to fly into LHR on Delta, NW, CO, or USAir? Next thing you know you will be sending your customers to Fankfurt Hahn airport instead of Frankfurt Intl. .becasue it's cheaper. (ooops. It's 100km from Frankfurt...I didn't know that...duh)

I believe United will survive, but in a smaller. .shell. If Chap 11 is inevitable, I hope UAL doesn't pull the rest of the industry (excluding Southwest) down with it.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[spudskier]

Polzin... was from Idaho, living in Ohio now...

I've had great experiences even when things go bad, and yes, they usually do. But I've always managed to find someone helpful to work with me, get me rebooked or at least explain the situation to me. I've gotten a ton of free stuff from them and I can't complain about free!

I've also had great experiences with Continental except when there are more than 20 people flying at a time... they can't handle mass numbers of people, especially if something goes wrong. One time 2 of their agents even had a breakdown and started crying right there when we found out our flight was cancelled! I don't know what they do to those poor ticket takers etc... but they don't do customer service well. However I do commend Continental on their decision to put in thinner seats giving more leg room and the fact that they are looking at possible profitability this year if United and U.S. Air don't bring them down first!

[Andreas in SAF]

Donkey Duke: I am the first one who would love to see DL, CO, NW, US etc. flying into LHR!

This monopoly situation with only AA UA BA VS is terrible.

But- the price we would have to pay to get these. .other airlines into LHR is WAAAAAYY TOO HIGH (yes - I AM shouting!) To give AA/BA anti-trust immunity is a disaster. The few slots that the others will get, will increase competition a lot less than the loss of competion by letting AA/BA work together.

There must be another way to get these other airlines into LHR, than to let AA/BA conspire regarding flights, fares, commissions, customer service.

Unbelievably - the anti trust laws were supposed to protect small businesses against large, to enhance and ensure competition. But- it's only the BIGGEST companies that are being granted anti-trust immunity, to work together to kill off the small ones. Travel agencies have run against a wall trying to get limited anti-trust immunity to negotiate commissions and other issues with the airlines, but the big companies are allowed to set policies against small mom-and-pap companies together. It's a disgrace!

And don't belive for one minute that this does not hurt the consumer, the traveler. Try to get an upgrade seat or free seat NYC-LON AFTER AA/BA have been granted their anti-trust immunity. That will be even harder than now.

Also - the mega airlines claim that these alliances bring "seamless" (Ha ha ha) service to far away places. Baloney! Your agent at the UA check-in counter in ABQ has no clue about far away LH destinations, neither before the Star alliance, nor after. You could get a "joint-fare" long before these alliances were allowed, and that system worked just fine.

Leo Mullin from DL told congress that they should be granted even more anti-trust immunity, so the real biggies could merge, to better be able to weather crises like Sept. 11.

Unbelievable! It is the smaller airlines, like Southwest, Frontier, Alaska, that could handle the downturn in business, not the big ones. The big dinosaurs are the loudest begging for more money from the taxpayers. And- United is of course one of these behemoths that need to go.

And do you professional pilots think that these "mergers" are an advantage for you? Of course not -you are getting screwed too, while the Stephen Wolff's pocket another merger bonus (even if it kills the company).

No more mergers, no more anti-trust immunity to ANY airline cooperation! Let's lobby the politicians to eventually put an end to already existing pacts, which are all anti-competitive. . .This disastrous trend must be stopped!

[Tan]

Gee Andreas in SAF

You sound upset...Get a hold of your emotions before you blow a gasket.

Surprisingly(not) I have to disagree on your personal take on the state of the industry. I would have thought that you would know better, but alias, you don't.

Cheers

[polzin]

Spud ....... thanks for being so kind not to mention my spelling , poor editing, or questioning how many glases I might have had. I did just have an idea why you and I may differ on our views. I live in Denver, they have something like 65% of the market and that may be the problem here. They are the Kings and act so. Maybe in Ohio they may have a totally different attitude. Often the smaller the station the more friendly they are. I have had FAA friends tell me it is a safe airline.

[polzin]

glasses ?

[Willit Run]

OK Polzin,

Lets leave the Idaho cracks alone! Everyone knows we have some of the best back country flying around.. .You stay in Denver where you belong. UA may well see some Bumps, but I think they will do just fine. (if you only knew what I said about Midway)

[polzin]

Are yo married to Velvet / Watch jetblast ....prisoners. this might be fun.

[butter]

Lavdumper,

You said your friend was being payed high wages. Do you really think United's pay is the problem? Pilots are payed fare wages for the job they do....no?

Just one farm boys opinion!

[spudskier]

polzin -- they have two gates in Columbus, not a huge presence. Unfortunately our major presence is America West *PuKe*

Actually most of my good experiences with United at the Chicago hub. Although I hit Denver almost every time I fly to see my parents in Idaho, I'm never in Denver for more than at most 45 minutes, and have never really had much interaction with the ticketing staff, just sitting on the tarmac waiting to be deiced for an hour... *sigh* I know it has to be done, but they need to be more efficient about it like Chicago is!

and no worries aboutt the spelling or grammer... I've seen a lot worse! At least I can understand you :)

. .Willit Run -- Amen, I lived in Idaho for 10 years, (I lived in Idaho Falls) and while I'll be the first to admitt it's a horrible place for a kid to grow up (nothing to do except outdoors stuph) it is some of the most beautiful country I've ever seen. I hope eventually to get into flying gliders around there like one of the instructors in my flight school.

[ACA]

I don't think the government could let this happen... besides they are one of our major carriers. The star alliance, ACA, ACJET also contribute to their business.. . . .But it has been easier to fly standby now a days !

[polzin]

Spuds.......... born in Ohio , wished i lived in Idaho except for one exception,... Willie runs. He lives there BECAUSE there is nothing for children to do. Spuds....... forgive.... I want to tell you an experience on United, not mine because im biased. Im going to ignore ALL english rules because its a long story and Im a lazy sob. Buddy of mine is flying Detroit to Denver and switch airplanes and go to Los . . Angelos. Flight is late arriving in Detroit and he asks the ticket agent at the gate if there will be a problem on the connection in Denver because he can stay in Detroit and go the next day, its no problem because the comany is paying the bill. Twice he asked this question. No problem . We will hold the flight in Denver so you will make the connection. Upon arrival in Denver they were told to go directly to gate number ....?.. and get on their connecting flight. upon arrival at the departure gate they were told that the flight had departed 45 minutes earlier. Their bags would be available in a few mintues at that gate. They waited 30 minutes and questioned where their bags were and were notified that they had been sent to the baggage claim area. my buddy then asked what hotel reservations had been made for them. Was told none. He said it was not a big deal for him because his company was paying for his hotel but he was curious why United was not paying for the hotel. It was a weather delay. I have forgot what they call this but basicly its Gods fault and we are not responsible Whoa he said . In Detroit the weather was fantastic at least 30 miles visibility and when we landed in Denver vis was at lest 75 miles. So how could it be a weather delay? Well it seems that 2 landings before they arrived in Detroit there had been some bad weather that caused the delay. Here is the kicker.! Next to my buddy was a woman who had two children . One about 4 and the other a baby. At 1030 at night she was on her own to get a hotel room , pay for it , get to it after collecting her baggage , and wake up early enough to arrive for the first flight out at 630 in the morning.

Think about it mate....... 3 hours sleep?maybe?. .If you are lucky enough not to have any horror stories about United .............. can you please tell me what you think the stock market is going to do?

When I moved to Denver in 1952 ther were 2 large airlines ,UAL an CAL. Can You tell me ONE innovation for passengers that United invented? Just one. Then I will tell you about CAL. Beware of Willie!!

[LAVDUMPER]

Hey Tim,

Still waiting for that announcement you promised...

Perhaps you should check your sources next time...

[GlueBall]

Andreas in SAF:. .As a Travel Agency Owner I'd be looking to get into another job/profession soon, because the Internet is replacing your services, if ever so slowly. Not a threat, just a statement of fact.. . <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Andreas in SAF]

GlueBall: We have learned to live with and USE the internet for our customers, so we plan to stay alive for a long time.

There are certain trip arrangements, where a professional travel agent still by far beats the internet: E.G. that 12-stopover itinerary across Europe, advice about whether the Annapurna- or the Everest-trek is more interesting, 24-hour support in case of a crisis like Sept. 11... etc.

The real problem is the Enron-attitude of the airlines, their arrocance has increased since the handout by the government. They have 3 enemies, according to my opinion: The customer, the travel agent and their own staff.

[spudskier]

polzin --

Something similar happened to me. I was on my was from Salt Lake City to Wilmington , NC(ILM). I got stuck in Chicago as usual for storms, but these were really bad. I was supposed to have a direct flight to ILM... they canceled it 4 hours after it was supposed to leave. being innovative I went to a gate at the other end of the terminal (united terminal) where there were two gate agents that had just finished loading a different plane and seeing it off.

I asked if it was possible if not to get to ILM, to get me closer... sure enough there was a flight to Dulles (D.C.) leaving at midnight and they put me on it. the itinerary I had said I would get a connecting flight to ILM. Right..... like you'd think, ILM is very small, Class D I believe, possibly class c but I think it's too small? No flight that night and the flight to Dulles didn't leave until 1:30am after the storms moved out.

United paid for a stay at the Dulles airport Hilton (normally $250/night) a taxi ride to and from, and breakfast. plus got me on a noon flight the next morning to finish the trip. THat's why I'm loyal, they treated me well.

[Notso Fantastic]

So have United filed Chapter 11 yet? Not even perhaps Chapter 8, or even CHAPTER ONE? So shall we terminate this thread that is probably damaging a perfectly good business all in the name of RUMOUR ONLY? This is getting to be rather a waste of time!

[F900B]

A friend of mine who is a senior capt with UA, says there flying nearly 95% capacity, since sept 11th. There cut a long story short there won' be any filing of Chpt 11 at UA.

[[email protected]]

Andreas in SAF:

[ Please understand this is not directed at your agency or yourself directly, merely your industry ]

You talk about the arrogance of the airlines, but you belong to an industry that, in 1990, epitomized arrogance. In those days, a lot of agencies were getting (IIRC) uncapped 10% commissions, and yet were pathetically little more than the consumer could do with Easy SAABRE via Compuserve or the like.

Further, we'd have agents poor choices for the clients simply because they didn't know the airports, hotels, etc. but acted as if they did. For example: LHR-LGW transfers being touted as "convenient" since all the flights were on the same carrier, yet anyone who's ever tried that one would know that interlining at LGW would be a far easier option. Then there's booking "convenient" and expensive hotels, based solely on distance rather than accessibility (e.g. it certainly used to be the case that you could stay in New Jersey more cheaply *and* more easily than you could stay in the New York Financial district).

And so on... (the lament of the traveller with a mediocre agent!)

Another point, from a consumer standpoint, the old agency commission scheme was a total non-starter: what incentive do you have to sell me the lowest fare? You often need to exert yourself more to get a lower fare, which would net you less money. For a repeat business account, that's reasonable; yet for a walk-in casual traveller, are you *really* going to go to great lengths to get the best fare?

Lastly: you complain bitterly about the (now defunct) idea of a AA/BA alliance. Yet AS A CONSUMER what I want _is_ this sort of arrangement. Look at what the frequent Star Alliance travellers think about that deal: getting "FF elite" recognition on other carriers, FF mileage (important, whether you like it or not, to many business travellers), greater ticket flexibility ("VALID AA ONLY" is less restrictive if BA flights have AA codes). And so on...

And this seems like a contradiction in your position: you argue that TA's provide service, even though they're obviously not the cheapest outlet for the product. Alliances provide service, even though there are pricing implications. If you want me to support the notion that TA's are useful, why do you try to assert that alliances aren't?

In the past 15 years I've had precisely ONE good business travel agent (and that's AGENT, not agency), a couple of REALLY bad ones, and the rest all mediocre and thus basically useless. On the leisure side, the stats are a bit better (as you note, side trips and the like can be arranged), but even then its pretty common that _something_ will get miscommunicated between the client, the agency, and the provider...

My challenge to you, now, is to explain why the airlines cutting commission is an issue for you. If, as you allege, you provide such a wonderful service, why won't your customers willingly pay you, directly, for your service?

Malc.

[Andreas in SAF]

MalcLoadingCargo: I said in my previous post that we do use the internet, when it is to our customers' advantage.. .And - the customers "willingly" DO pay us for this service and other services, in fact 1/2 of our income is from service charges.

I have 2 issues where I completely disagree with you:. .1. Your "bigger is better" attitude, which for some reason a lot of people adhere to, even if it hurts them, but due to all the indoctrination in the media, they never understand it.. .Example: The smaller airlines, like Southwest, Frontier, even AirTran, DID NOT need a tax payer bailout to keep them alive, but AA, DL, UA certainly did. Gues who paid for that - you did!

2. You buy into that weird notion that travel agents want to sell you expensive, so they can earn more. The fact is that most businesses live off their repeat customers. If these customers don't get good service at a good price they will not come back.

According to your logic, you always get the highest price from your insurance agent, your grocery store, your plumber, your electrican, your gas station, your ..... you get the idea, I hope!?

All these businesses, including yours, whatever it may be, always charge their customers the highest price, so they can make the most money!!

Do you see how unreasonable your argument about travel agencies is?

By the way, I'm not just a travel agency owner, but also a student pilot, so maybe one day I will see everything from the airlines' or airline employees' point of view.... who knows?

[polzin]

Let us say that an airline has 100 airplanes. Due to lack of demand the airline parks 30 aircraft. The airlines lays off some employees and saves some costs. But the station costs can only be cut back a little. The finance costs continue. ETC,ETC, Can you understand how this airline could be running at 95% capacity and still lose money? Im not saying this is United's situation because I dont know. But it is possible.

Airlines are such a leveraged business. I remember in a stock market class years ago discussing Eastern Airlines. They had a lot of debt, The fixed cost were enormous, but if they could have just added one, just one, passenger, their profit would have gone up 50%. Cant remember the exact number , its been a long time. Good luck UAL.

[GeofJ]

To all of those who are batting at Andreas at SAF you must not be "professional"pax. Any road warrior worth their salt recognizes the value a professional travel agent provides. Lets see its Friday afternoon, an unadvoidable change in schedule causes me to miss my flight - oh yeah I would much rather juggle my laptop at some cr@ppy payphone to connect to some website or use my cell to call 8 different 800 numbers where I can wait on hold for 4 to 400 minutes to try to find a flight home-NOT. I make one call to my professional travel agent and say get me home tonight. This service is worth the 10% unrestricted commission hands down. If BIG US AIRLINE can charge me $2400 US to fly no notice from SEA to ORD they can pay my travel agent 10%!

As a pax that spends more than 250 nights on the road a year I rely on my travel agent - I do not want to have to rely on the internet to do this myself so I can save BIG BANKRUPT US AIRLINE a few commission dollars.

[[email protected]]

Andreas:

As to your "bigger is better" notion, your suggestion that I subscribe to it is simply wrong.

I believe, and vehemently, that CHEAPER is NOT the only yardstick to measure anything by. Yet you suggest that there is something horrendous about me (the taxpayer) paying for a service INFRASTUCTURE that results in *better*, if not always *cheaper*, service. Case in point: AA is usually more expensive than WN. I have yet to experience a flight where the service was *worse* on AA than on WN. Since I want *service*, not minimum cost, what I want is integrated interline connections, etc.

In the UK, rail *used* to be integrated; for all its faults, British Rail was damn good at making and guaranteeing connections. Then, in the name of your vaunted "price is everything" gods, they de-integrated everything, and now connections between trains aren't guaranteed, etc. In other words, service has decreased as competition has increased. This shouldn't be a surprise, but the alleged "consumer groups" all seem to forget that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

From all this, it follows obviously that I have NO problem with paying for service, and *if* a travel agent provides value, I'm quite happy to pay for it. What I'm NOT happy about paying for is the TA that doesn't provide value (which, in my experience, is the majority of same), yet who then -- like you -- whine about the cuts in the airline commissions.

IF, as you allege, you are so wonderful, people will pay for your service. And if you like commissions that much, then simply tack them onto the client's invoice. That, then, is all fair and above board, and those who know (or think they know) that they don't need the service can save themselves the hassle by booking direct.

Your other point included a bogus attempt to compare a paid-by-the-supplier commission scheme (airlines, in this case) with a "cost plus" scheme (the plumber). The insurance agent looks the same as the airline at first glance, but since few insurance issues are like same-day return tickets, it's clear that there are huge differences.

BUT... if a travel agency wanted to agree a "inverse" commission scheme, I'd be all over that. This is a scheme where the agent gets a percentage of the difference between the full fare and the fare paid (usually subject to a minimum, so they still get paid for full fare ticket. This scheme tracks the value of an agent much better: the trivially easy full-fare ticket, needing zero special expertise to obtain, netts the agent the minimum, but if they can save you thousands, they make lots of loverly lolly...

And to that other respondent: I was, and periodically still am, a "professional traveller". I've had, as I've said, exactly *one* good agent, and even then the scenario you outline would leave me talking to some call center type in the small hours.

So, speaking as a professional traveller, I'll say that the most important thing is to have the resources to do the job yourself... when the plane is taxi-ing back to the gate and the airfones aren't on and cell phones are forbidden, you can still look in the OAG and call the carrier as soon as the door opens...

Malc.

[Rollingthunder]

UA announced 2001 financial results today. . .Loss of US$ 2.1 billion, the largest loss in aviation history. Analysts were somewhat heartened as they were expecting worse.

[polzin]

That is equal to a loss of $40.04 per share.

[TMelland]

Which means the current market on this stock is over by 12 usd. or worth about a buck.

"Hello Pres. Bush.....you got about 5 billion we can borrow?"

Guess the American tax dollar will be bailing out yet another fat cat layden conglomeration.... <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[oncemorealoft]

<a href="http://pacific.bcentral.com/pacific/stories/2002/02/04/daily9.html" target="_blank">UAL "Bankruptcy Possible"</a>

Pacific Business News says...

United Airlines bankruptcy possible. .The chief financial officer of United Airlines refuses to rule bankruptcy for the airline as it seeks to recover from the post-Sept. 11 travel slump.

In a conference call to talk about United's newest quarterly loss report, Jack Brace seemed to leave open the possibility of filing for protection from creditors under Chapter 11 of federal bankruptcy laws. So reporters sought to pin him down by offering him the opportunity to explicitly rule out such a filing.

Brace pointedly did not do so, but instead said, more than once, that United was working on an overall plan for financial recovery.

United executives have said that any recovery plan will have to include significant contract concessions by the airline's unions. United pilots have already replied that anything they concede will have to be in return for significant changes in the way United is run. Pilots own 25 percent of United stock and have their own seat on the United board.

United has more flights between Hawaii and the U.S. mainland than any other airline and plans in the spring to restore its fourth daily flights here from both Los Angeles and San Francisco.

[Donkey Duke]

OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHH SNAP! SNAP!

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Donkey Duke]

Tim Mellend,

So genius, do you have any other good rumors? I must have missed the Frontier and Alaska merger,. .did that occur? Maybe I have been asleep for the last couple weeks, when did UAL declare Chap 11? Hey, when will Brad Pitt and Jenifer Aniston break up? But seriously Tim, is it true that the. .Canadian Gov't will buy United and turn it into an all cargo carrier some time in late 2003?. .You and Lavdumper are REAL funny and obviously are. .twins.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[butter]

Donkey Duke,

It seems to me that you are one of those people that have trouble expressing yourself. If you dont have anything productive to add to the conversation then hush up! This bourd is for pilots not entertainers.

Just one farmboys opinion! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Donkey Duke]

Hey Farmie,

You hush up! Thanks gramps for all your wisdom.. .Hey, I was expressing myself and noting that good ole Tim Mellend likes to bring up rumors that are way off. He likes to get people excited and bothered without bringing known facts. Before getting people upset (like declaring UAL chap 11 before it happens) one should know the facts. Timmy struck out twice with the Frontier/Alaska. .merger and then the UAL chapp 11 rumor. Next thing you know he will state that all farm pilots are immediately grounded due to their lack of skills and sense of humor. (That was a joke---I am sure you can fly under power wires and do double inverted rats @ss's better than I can---?). .Most people come on this rumor board to share substantial info to enlighten others. Then winners like Tim come on to scare people.

So, Farmie, I hope this shows you that I can express myself just fine. My intention was to point out to Tim that he has been way way off TWICE. You take it easy and remember to wear those goggles when flying at 200ft----those nasty Alabama nats love to infest in people's eye ducts!. .Yahoo!

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[butter]

Donkey Duck,

Okay you may be able to express yourself but the fact remains you are no better then any other poster on this board. The fact that Tim M. is a very confused individual doesn't give you the right to attack him. What makes you the expert on UAL or the Canadian Gov. for that matter? Are you a financial banker or a pilot? I am a licenced pilot and do know alot about the industry. Maybe I fly low and don't get payed a lot unlike some at UAL, CO, DAL, AA, etc.... You on the other hand seem to post as much rubish as the TIm M guy! Looks to me as if you DD need to do some homework and learn about this industry before you start attacking the knowledgable poster of this site.

Snapp Snapp Hiss Hiss-or whaterver you always say!

Just one farm boys opinion!

[Donkey Duke]

Farmie,

First of all, the phrase is...."SNAP!!!!" Second,. .I bet I know 10 times more about the airline industry than you. Easily 10 times. (Ok, you beat me on crop dusting----you probably fly a Pawnee, right?) I have studied the airline industry with vigor for the last 15 years. I make it my business because I am in this business.. .I don't know your qualifications, but I bet the closest you get to an "airliner" is when you need to fly to Dothan, AL to get gas and see an ASA. .ATR-72 sitting there. But, there is no need to compare---you have your opinion and I have mine.. .But, you cannot compare me to Tim Mellend----I have not posted anything that wasn't backed up by facts. If I have a question, I ask it in the form of a question. Do you follow me Farmie?. .Do I need to slow down for you? Wut Wut? You're wrong!

Anyways.....I admit that I am sometimes a bit colorful in my responses. I'm sure you and Tim are nice guys---let's just get the facts strait so we don't cause unnecessary stress for the UAL guys/gals. Got it? Good.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[747FOCAL]

DONKEY DUKE- Not that I haven't done some flaming on this board myself, but I have never bragged on anybody. You obviously are of little management value nor do you appear to carry even the slightest amount of compassion for human beings that everybody in this industry must have in order for us all to be "safe". If you anywhere on the senior ladder with an opinion that matters you might be able to conceptualize what I am trying to say. Phil Condit is a true a**hole, but you will never know it talking to him in a croud.

[joebloggs]

So now The "Industry Expert" and the CropDuster have stepped outside the bar to finish off their "discussion".... Can we get back to the thread please?

A friend of mine trades with UAL - They owe him money. And he cannot get them to pay their bills. Does that mean they're in financial trouble? Make your own mind up, but they have debts exceeding 90 days on his books and I'm getting mighty worried that they'll go into Chapter 11 - protecting themselves and their poor shareholders, but BANKRUPTING small traders like my friend. It's always the end of the food chain that gets hit first.

[Donkey Duke]

747FOCAL----first of all, what? What are you saying? You lost me. My point was that I didn't think it was right to put inflamatory remarks or rumors on the board without strong facts. It's really in the way someone states something. I didn't like how good ole Tim Melland stated that UAL WAS GOING to go CHAP 11, and then it didn't.. .Do you see my point? NO? If he knows something. .and it doesn't happen, he should expect some flack.

Joe Bloggs----I am sure your friend is worried. There are a lot of people who are going to be financially hurt if UAL declares bankruptcy. But, if you read the initial thread from TIM MELLAND---he stated that UAL was going CHAP 11 last week or two weeks ago. He was wrong, and even though UAL may declare it sometime in the future, my point in all of this was to be accurate and know the facts before making such a broad statement. I hope your friend doesn't "lose his shirt" becasue of this mess.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[butter]

Why would a company sure up $750M dollars worth of credit if they planned Chapt 11? UAL did just that last week. The most recent press release has stated that UAL will not rule out CHAPT 11 and nothing else. Why would they rule out filing??? The Co will use this to their advantge when dealing with concesions.

As for the credability of Tim M. or DD, that is for you to decide. I think both of these posters just like to get a rise out of the hard working professionals in this industry. GOOD LUCK UAL!

Just one farm boys opinion!

[Donkey Duke]

Farmie,

What? You make no sense. My whole point was to discredit Timmy Mellend because his sources are CRAP. Then you, Farmie, come in and pretend to be my Grandpa. Go back to the Tasty Freeze in the Farm Belt and watch that heavy Cessna 172 takeoff for the mail run while you chew on the double cheeseburger, no pickles, hold the mayo.. .Do you like my rambling? You have no clue about this business. If you ever see me at a "big" INTL airport, and see me in the real "heavy", I will try to toss you a bag of lightly salted beer nuts from the window.

And to good ole FO747CAL, I assume CAL is China. .Airlines in Tapei---- I cant even understand what the heck you are saying.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Donkey Duke]

Farmie,

Maybe that was a little mean. I don't know you, and after re-reading your posts I can see that you are somewhat knowledgable. I, too, want UAL to do well. I'm done rambling---I just wanted people to state facts instead of rumors that never did come true----like Frontier/Alaska merger. .and the UAL Chap 11.

Farmie, best of luck to you---sorry about the beer nut comment. Take it easy.

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[butter]

Well, Well, Well if it isn't Donkey Dung,

There are a few posters on this board who claim to be genuine...you Donkey Dung are not one of them! Tim M. and you are in the same class. If you think for one minute that because my nick name is FF you are better or more qualified to post here so be it! For all you know I'll be your next Capt.

Tim M.: UAL was going Chapt 11. .You: ah um.....Nothing!

You have no clue what is going on in the world of aviation. If your so smart post something of substance! My guess is that you are a private pilot that can't even get a CFI job. Your hobbies are comming to boards like these to play airline pilot. Little man ego always gets the best of them!

As for the double cheese burger......why don't you hold everything up your @@@!

Riding along in my metal tube at FL002! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Donkey Duke]

I broke my promise. Farmie, I really don't think you will be my Capt anytime soon, I am a Capt! What you say? Do I fly for a major? You bet, one of the big four. Do I care about UAL? Yes I do. Do I hate rumors that are absolutely false and have no merit, yes.

Now Farmie, or Capt Farmie, or PFE Farmie, whatever----go fly your metal tube nice and low. .and keep reading USA Today Money section.

See ya!!!!!

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Andreas in SAF]

If Donkey Duke and some others here on this forum REALLY are captains or F/O's on major airlines, then that really scares the s**t out of me - flying commercially in this country.

The bus drivers in my town are more psychologically balanced and exude more confidence than some of these morons.

I guess the government ordered secure cockpit doors, so the kindergarten toys of these babies wouldn't roll out into the cabin, and cause heart attacks among the paying customers.

[ 07 February 2002: Message edited by: Andreas in SAF ]</p>

[Ignition Override]

Come on you guys/gals. Is it necessary to get personal? Most of us are all literally just one heartbeat or disease away from no career at all: it is very brittle.

No matter what airline pr departments release to the media, sometimes the opposite happens.

There are so many rumours flying around many airlines, that I doubt that the UAL employees will react at all towards anything on PPrune, even if they know about this site. They are probably numb by now. But at least their former CEO is gone. They might be in much better condition (based on "critical mass" and mix of routes etc) than USAirways. Good luck to all of them, especially USairways.

[TMelland]

Wow.....

Didn't know I was starting a war here by posting a rumour.......I meant no harm by it....My goal here was to post something I heard; from what I beleive was a credible source...And see if anyone else had heard anything.....Guess next time I will ask y'all if I may post something first.....

Last time I checked it was still called the Rumour Network....Am I right here or is the name of this site just a cover for a new news network?

<img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[wes_wall]

This from todays AV Flash:

UNITED -- FROM BIGGEST TO NEARLY BANKRUPT: Prior to American Airlines' acquisition of TWA, United Airlines was the largest commercial passenger. .air carrier in the world. Now the airline is contemplating a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing. The carrier is expected to post a significant loss. .for the fourth quarter of 2001, but things are improving. The airline expects to add nearly 130 flights back onto its schedule after March as. .traffic and revenues increase. Lest we forget, two of the airliners hijacked on September 11 carried United's colors. Some might say that. .for that reason alone, United *must* survive.

Don't bet on it. Someone said the same thing about EAL and the Big Blue Ball.

[Donkey Duke]

Ok, I will stop posting on this thread. Tim, all. .I ask is for you to post some credible info. That's it. I hope UAL doesn't go to Chap 11--but who knows?

Thanks. Donkey Duke <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[DanJ]

Wes_ that press release is a little old seeing as they already posted their Q4 numbers

[ignoramusextremus]

I say let the arrogant boys and girls @ UAL go the way of the Dinosaurs. The are an arogant bunch of kids who deserve what they get!

[DanJ]

you never have anything good to say do you? sheesh