Ex AN pilots now in QF - the cancer within

[fartsock]

I understand that a number of ex AN pilots, employed by QF over the last 2 yrs have offered to do a 'deal' with QF which would see them restored as Capt's & F/O's, outside of their present seniority (most are still S/O's and none are capts).

This deal involves undercutting the existing hourly rates by 32-36% depending on the aircraft.

Some ex A320 drivers have been manoeurving for a slot on the A330.

One individual has already wormed himself into the training section where he has become a TFO despite only minimal experience in QF.

Overall there are a lot of complaints from guys who IMHO should be grateful they have a job. What do you think would have happened if QF had collapsed and the shoe was on the other foot.

FS

[amos2]

...why am I not surprised!!

[Kaptin M]

Not content with shafting their work colleagues and families 14 years ago, it would appear that these greedy, self-serving parasites are up to their old tricks again, trading in what they have become supremely accomplished at - scabbing!

Fcu:mad:in' lowlifes!!

The majority of the "captains" from that time got their 4 bars the quick and easy way - scabbing during an industrial dispute - and now hope to AGAIN circumvent the established system.
Have AIPA stick a training ban on them, FS. Nip it in the bud.

[Gnadenburg]

Fartsock

Shoe on the other foot. I think a lot more QF pilots would be in Ansett. Just the nature of the two cultures.

If true, very disappointing, and would vindicate many of the harsh words said on pprune.

You did get a few very ambitious individuals who are used to accelerated career progress. It was a relief that many of the despised managment lackies joined QF and not the hoardes who went abroad.

I did here some of your current sim instructors were confident of of a rapid rise up the ranks. Bit more smoke for you mate.

[Raingauge]

Kaptin M...ever seen 'Dr Phil' on TV? If not, I'd recomend it. He might have some words of wisdom to help you get over "things" and chill out a bit.

Please...take 10 deep breaths before you respond back;)

[TIMMEEEE]

Fartsock,me thinks this to be either sour grapes or a wind up at best.
Judging by the allegations made about deals being done I dont recall anything being mentioned by the AIPA.
Id say the culprits would have their blood spilled on the apron already if what you say is true.

If you feel that badly about it why dont you vent your anger with those that you pay to represent yourself (AIPA if you are a member) rather than gripe and slander someone that applied for the job of a training F/O,was interviewed by the powers that be,assessed and trained by the same and found to be a suitable applicant worthy of carrying out that job.

Dont whinge about it fartsock, but give the details to your AIPA rep who will make the relevant enquiries if they feel you are justified.

Pay cuts for promotions?
I would normally tell you you're dreaming but either way go to the AIPA and sort this out.

[Aussierotor]

Cut in hourly rates------must have had one the other day by taking longer than normal to perth

[amos2]

...let's not lose sight of the fact that Qantas itself is a scab airline!

Sad, but true!

[RaTa]

amos2 with comments like that you only prove that you have a scab on the brain.

Sad but true!

[amos2]

...and, what a brilliant response that was!

[heavyjetguy]

scabs are in China airlines as well here. these parasites have arrived like a plauge. but the ranks are finally knowing what these bastards did in 89. how in the world can they hold their head up.


Thanks ansett for falling over, now we have these tossers here. check my post

[Master of the House]

Who ever said these guys were 89'ers anyway? They could still have joined ansett say 93-94 and easily have a command. I'm not condoning the QF thing, just the fact that they may not be scabs.

[Kaptin M]

Well they're sure as hell acting like ones, MotH.

As Amos said "Lie down with dogs - get up with fleas.......where's that flea powder!!"

Most of those involved in the 1989 punch-up are probably still clutching the letter from Hawke (sent to each of us), telling those who "returned" they would be "the custodians of Australian aviation" :rolleyes:

One needs only look at the very fine job they did in taking care of Ansett, East-West, IPEC, and (the original domestic) Australian Airlines aka TAA to see where Oz aviation would be headed, left to them!

[engine out]

I have done a sim or twowith the above mentioned TFO and found him to be very good. There was some rumour that some ex-ansett SO's whole were rated on the 767 may go to Australian as direct entry Capt as they could not get enough other Qantas pilots with required experience to bid across. However seems academic at the moment as most slots have been cancelled for the near future. Flew with a few ex-Ansett SO's and most are just grateful to have a job rather than trying to shaft others, many even did some GA between Ansett and Qantas, seems some people are just petty and looking for a chance to fight around here.

[bonvol]

One thing that amazes me is that scabs are welcomed into AIPA. They should be banned from membership for industrial treason.

That they seek to benefit themselves at others expense is no surprise. Same MO different company.

[gameboy1971]

You guys are just wharfies with a better education.......

[Wizofoz]

Kap M,

Arrr!!! So it was Hawkies letter that convinced you to apply for your job back!

As for the rest of this thread- pure, bitter, hateful and completely unsubstantiated BS spread by malcontents who STILL haven't taken responsibility for there own mistakes and gotten on with their lives.

[Chilli Muscle]

St Johns wart and complex vitamin B are good.:{

[Kaptin M]

"As for the rest of this thread- pure, bitter, hateful.. ", Wizofoz.

You're probably correct - I doubt that very few Australians would feel anything OTHER than the above....you forgot disgusted...for the underhanded actions of a small group, who are trying to circumvent a system they KNEW was in place, when they applied to, and joined QANTAS, for their own gratification, whilst undermining the entire rest of the pilot workforce.

It was your associate, phnompenkid - with whom you strongly sided, Wizofoz - who quite proudly declared that he didn't care about the repercussions on others on whom he scabbed.
Your last post is further evidence that you and your ilk still find it "surprising" that scab tactics are UNACCEPTABLE.
You really are the misfits of society in general, and the aviation domain in particular!

"..and completely unsubstantiated BS spread by malcontents", Wizofoz.
To the best of my knowledge, Fartsock is a QANTAS pilot who was not involved in 1989 - until the scablike actions of the ex-Ansett pilots now employed in his company were introduced there as well.

You guys are just wharfies with a better education.......In fact gameboy1971, some wharfies are probably BETTER educated than some of us!! :sad:

[Going Boeing]

I've flown with five ex-AN pilots and none of them are SC@Bs and I found them to be decent blokes who are happy to have a job and are prepared to wait their turn to gain a front seat again.
Considering, we have a very tightly worded Industrial Award with an extablished "Paid Rate" which prevents QF from offering lower salaries to fly the same aircraft types, I find it hard to see that the original post has any foundation.

Can anyone advise if there are any SC@Bs from AN employed by QF - by that I mean anyone who got a job with AN between Oct 89 and Mar 90. I do not consider anyone a SC@B if they obtained a job after AFAP capitulated and advised its members to try to get their jobs back.

GB

[puff]

Surely this must be a beatup?!?, there would be less than 5 guys ex AN guys in QF that would have had ANY involvment in 89, except for the few sim instructers. Most were all fairly junior F/Os with AN. Don't let the truth get in the way I guess :D

[BLO MOI]

So GB , you would have been prepared to let the AFAP decide when you could come back to work in '89 would you??
Bad judgement I would say!!,
I'd prefer to let the guys who saw the writing on the wall, and the foreigners lined up outside the recruiting section, and the balls to say this is f...d im out of here have a go.


It's fine to sit back on yr high horse casting judgement on who 'you consider a sc..b' blah blah blah blah, when you don't have to make the D yrself

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Every airline pilot, and every pilot who joined the fray in 1989 and onwards, had a role to play in the dispute, including the AIPA.
Led from the AFAP by the weak-minded OS Branch leadership of the day, the AIPA has been merely a rollover training ground for management hungry pilots ever since, with little industrial interest for the benefit of its membership.
It simply failed to see the ramifications of '89 and the potential it had for the degradation over the long term for its members.
Now with a bunch of scabs incorporated into the membership, its coffers swell but with little output.
During 1989 the AFAP was privileged to receive individual donations from a handful of decent members of the AIPA, but they were indeed in the minority.
And as for who are " '89er's ", they are the pilots who did NOT scab, so get the context right boys.
Good night.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

hey guys, it's all been said before! the scabs were the foreign low breeds that migrated out here at the invitation of Bob Hawke, Peter Abeles and Rupert Murdoch. picked up at the airport in limos, transported to the best hotel in town, wined & dined, then offered the most lucrative contracts (together with aussie citizenship) at the expense of decent aussie pilots just trying to be loyal to a misguided and naive union.
let it go lads - the war finished on the 10th october 1989. after that, the AN & TN returnees were just returning to THEIR own jobs.
The AFAP got it wrong and couldn't admit IT !!!!

[fartsock]

My original post was not a wind up.


The TFO in question might be a 'good bloke' but he knows fu$k all about QF longhaul ops - one wonders how he is able to teach S/O's about line ops when he has done so little himself

Stand by for a senior management appointment of an ex AN A320 capt (now a PUIT).

This will neccesitate him being promoted some 800 numbers out of seniority and I understand is likely to be pushed through by the company on the basis he 'is the best man for the job'.

As for the 'offer' to the company - this is a matter of fact, known to AIPA.

Ask your COM member for a off the record quote.

I don't know if the individuals involved in this present move are 89 'heros' or not, but their present behaviour is the issue I have a problem with.

FS

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Sub-Sonic et al . Your high handed drivel re AIPA and '89 belies the fact that it was NEVER AIPA's fight.

What did you expect AIPA to do? Arrange illegal secondary boycotts and get their members sued as well? Hurl themselves on the AFAP funeral pyre with mass resignations?

What? No-one has ever answered that question with a logical response.

Don't get angry at people who in no way could assist you without ending up with the same sad consequences the AFAP rank and file experienced.

[oicur12]

Fartsock,

Which part of QF's long haul ops is he having trouble with.

Do QF do it that differently from the suggestions made by Airbus.

Is longhaul that difficult.

[Wizofoz]

So, Fartsock...

Your high level conspiracy is in fact one management type being direct entered.

Not NEARLY enough revenge for you guys inflicting us with TJ!!!

[funbags]

Took your suggestion FS - rang AIPA - spoke to 2 Com members. They haven't heard of anything.
Are you sure ?

[robair]

GROW UP you guys and get over it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me know which airlines you fly with so that I won't travel on them.
I don't want my life in the hands of poeple with your intelect!!!!!!!!!

[Going Boeing]

Blo Moi
My understanding of the meaning of the word SC@B is anyone working whilst the union concerned is in dispute with the employer. Once the union terminates industrial action then those that subsequently gain employment are not SC@Bs. I consider the foreign SC@Bs the lowest form of SC@Bs especially as all the overseas ALPAs advised them of the industrial dispute.

Sub-Sonic MB
You appear to be unaware of the facts - Qantas pilots were never involved in the dispute (despite the best efforts of the then PM) however, the domestic pilots had the full support of their international peers. To my knowledge, there were four flights flown by QF on domestic routes during the dispute and these were because of humanitarian and hardship grounds. These flights were sanctioned by the AFAP otherwise they would not have been flown.
AIPA's leaders at that time were not weak minded - in fact I'd call them shrewd for not falling into the trap of taking on the full might of a hostile government, especially when we didn't have a dispute with our own company management.
Maybe you're still bitter that the Overseas Branch walked out on the AFAP. Maybe if the then AFAP leaders (mainly AN) had listened to and acted on a lot of the problems that the Overseas branch were having then the split may not have occured.

The_Cutest_of_Borg
I concur with your comments.

GB

[7x7]

Debating this issue is a waste of bandwidth – each camp is so firmly ensconced in its respective corner that no amount of debate will ever winkle them out to see the other’s point of view. And just to prove that point, I’ll go on here to show how deeply buried in my corner I am.


*****

This thread does serve one purpose, however – it reminds those who’d like what they did in 1989-90 to be forgotten that, despite their wishes (or earnest hopes) to the contrary, their shameful actions will never be forgotten, and by more people than they might imagine.

As for Qantas not being a scab airline. No one’s pointing that finger at the overseas branch of the airline, but on the day the (insert whatever word suits your individual opinions of the gentlemen (and ladies) in question) pilots from ex-Australian Airlines – now the QF domestic wing – Qantas sadly became an airline with quite a few scabs in its ranks.

Personally, I prefer the name coined for them right here on Pprune after some of these ‘gentlemen’ objected to being called what they were, and are, and will continue to be to the day the last of them dies. For those not familiar with the new, politically correct title for these people, it is ‘heroes’. Perhaps someone could do a search for the hilarious poem that someone wrote in an earlier thread about these ‘worthies’ that gave them the name. I was almost in tears reading it.

Since the padlock prevents me from posting on the recent China Airlines thread, if anyone from CAL gets to read this, try using the ‘hero’ name on the ones you’ve got with you now. You might be amused at the reaction.

[EPIRB]

Sounds like somebody is getting their lawns mowed.

[Raider1]

Could not agree with you more Robair. I think it is really scary to think that individuals with such hatred after so many years are allowed in any form of free life let alone flying an aircraft. No matter who was right on wrong at the time.
I can only hope that some firm action is taken soon by either the employers or CAASA before it results in an unecessary disaster involving innocent people

[boocs]

Yes Raider 1, we wouldn't want anything like an evacuation carried out on an aerobridge with less than text book results now would we!!!!
Better tell CAASA or is it CASA?

[powerbeat12]

Bonvol wrote this:

"One thing that amazes me is that scabs are welcomed into AIPA. They should be banned from membership for industrial treason.

That they seek to benefit themselves at others expense is no surprise. Same MO different company"


my reply is..........AND LOVING IT BUDDY!!!



:O :p :D :ok:

[rockarpee]

boocs you are an idiot

[longjohn]

Fartsock - I think you may be confusing seniority with qualifications, experience and ability.

Irrespective of the ex Ansett drivers QF seniority, their logbooks still reflect their REAL experience. The fact that their positions as back seat drivers does not reflect this is a matter of seniority, not qualifications, experience or ability.

If QF are availing themselves of this experience in positions outside the seniority system, and these guys are the best men for the job then what are you complaining about?

Are you seriously suggesting that a less qualified and experienced person should get the job simply because he is more senior? If so why?

Perhaps QF should promote new cadets to TFO's because they 'outrank' others. Are you seriously advocating this.

I believe that QF pilots take themselves a bit too seriously in terms of the relevance of rank. It would seem to me that if Chuck Yaeger joined Qantas tomorrow he would still be looked down on by all and sundry because he was 'junior'.

Wake up call, when your airline goes broke or turfs you out, what meaning does seniority have?

Incidentally, you may also like to consider that QF has benefitted from the experience of pilots from many other backgrounds apart from Ansett, such as the RAAF, Cathay and other airlines, many of whom are in Qantas for the job and the lifestyle, not to be treated in a demeaing manner by 'fartsocks' with inferiority complexes who cling to seniority as their only means of assertion.

[bonvol]

Powerbeat. I gather you may be one of the "heroes" involved??

One can only surmise as to what you beat with so much power.

Thanks for making my case.

[fartsock]

Longjohn,

Good post - let me clarify.

I do not have a problem with the company leverging previous experience.

The fact that I had flown the B767 elsewhere before joining the company in the -80's was a factor in my selection. I had 2000hrs as an F/O, but accepted that part of the deal was to start at the bottom again. Such is life ect..

The 'best man for the job' principle has been applied for as long as I have been in the company, it is seen (at times) F/O's as tech and fleet managers. I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem, is guys excepting employment and then, once in the company, going behind the back of the pilot body and offering to do the same job as their colleagues for less money so as to be promoted out of seniority.

The seniority system is far from perfect, but (for the moment at least) it is an equitable way of ensuring individuals get a fair go and are not subject to the nepotism and corporate politics that dog most other operators I have worked for.

In the case of the ex A320 capt who is going to be appointed to a management position, my objection is to his promotion to F/O approx 800 numbers out of seniority as part of this deal. He could do the job as an S/O if required, but the company and the pilot concerned are persuing this course of action deliberately and with malice.

[longjohn]

Fartsock,

As far as 'the lawnmower man' goes I agree wholeheartedly.

He was well known in Ansett for similar tactics.

What are the union giong to do?

Should he be promoted to F/O then it will be on the basis of Qualifications and Experience, not seniority. This could be a dangerous precedent and one which AIPA should not let past the keeper.

I would strongly suggest his appointment to F/O (not MGT) be challenged.

But what if he won in a seniority vs Qualifications and Experience battle???????

[DutchRoll]

It's amazing. I'm just sadly waiting for the day that two 12 year old kids beat the living daylights out of each other in the playground at school because Dad #1 was on one side in '89 and Dad #2 was on the other. Despite the obvious fact that neither of them would have been conceived at the time, with the vitriolic and extreme hostility still around in some players, it can't fail to 'rub off'.

Boocs, feel free to tell us when you next do a textbook passenger evacuation of 350 jet lagged people from a Jumbo down escape slides in the wee hours of the morning. Refer to the other thread if you want to read more opinion on this.

Back to the topic, I've got several mates ex-AN now Qantas. None of them were even in the airline industry until years after the dispute, and they probably wouldn't even be able to tell you what year it was, as they were off doing other things. Please don't tar all of them with the same brush.

[oicur12]

If you folks want to honostly believe some ex AN guys at QF are attempting to negotiate directly with the company to undercut sallaries then you are shmucks. Urban myth is alive and well at QF.

Likewise the stories regarding "lawnmowerman". Pure childish BS.

[WalterMitty]

Well Fartsock, I think you will be disappointed to hear that a court precedent exists and that I'm sure the lawnmowerman would be fully aware of it. An AN pilot was promoted way out of order for a management position about 5 years ago. The court upheld the companies argument that he was needed for the position and had to have the type and staus to go with it. Complete rubbish I know but the AIPA have already lost the case on this one. As a matter of my personal opinion the person in question is NOT the best man for the job but how would a judge know that?
As for the AN s/o mafia I think it unlikely that 120 pilots will outvote the other 2000+ on such an issue.

[BLO MOI]

Thanks for the literary lesson GB, I'll have to amend my Oxford..

re. TFO, who ever wants it can have it, as far as im concerned

less pay (or no opp. to make up hrs, when the av. is down), MUCH more work, sit in the Box with a couple of guys who really dont want to be there, and having to 'train' Cpt. coming off other A/C, (read 60+) who no doubt are a grateful recipients of the TFO input.
It's not rocket science, although the way QF reinvent the wheel every 2 weeks does complicate issues..
If the AN guys want it go for it!!
The only upside i see is an almost guaranteed inroad into the Tng dep. as a Capt, and good prep. for CMD training..
anyhow back to the Porn site

[jafa]

Point of clarification.

Some of you seem to be under the impression the dispute was over 14 yrs ago.

My understanding is the writs were never withdrawn by TN/QF or AN, they have a fifteen yr time limit, therefore as far as the operators are concerned they are still at war.

[Chequebook]

DUTCH ROLL-
G'DAY, UNFORTUNATELY YOUR COMMENT RE KIDS FIGHTING IS ALL TOO VALID. HAD A CAPTAIN RETURN FROM THE TERMINAL IN MAROOCHY A FEW YEARS BACK, SOME CLOWN HAD SAID TO HIM, "MY KIDS HATE YOU!". NO PRIZES FOR GUESSING WHY! SURE SEEMS LIKE A SMART WAY TO RAISE YOUR KIDS. OF COURSE HE PICKED HIS SLIGHTLY BUILT TARGET CAREFULLY AS DO MOST OF THE "heroes" I'VE MET OR HEARD ABOUT. DIDN'T TRY TO HIT HIM WITH AN EGG THROWN BRAVELY FROM BEHIND A PARKED CAR THO!

OICUR12-
THERE'S NO HARM IN BEING A TFO/TSO, THO NOT FOR ME.
HOWEVER IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN DEFEND A KNOWN POLE CLIMBER/LAWN MOWER. AND TO THINK THAT SOME GUYS WON'T MAKE DEALS FOR THEMSELVES IS VERY NAIVE.
HOPE YOUR NOT LINING UP BEHIND.

WALLY.M-
BEST YOU BUY ANOTHER BASKET FOR THE, I PRESUME, MAJORITY OF WE EX AN S/O MAFIA EGGS AS WE ARE VERY HAPPY WITH OUR JOBS, BUT LIKE YOURSELF ARE MOST CONCERNED THAT THE "PSYCH TEST" SEEMS TO EITHER HAVE FAILED OR BEEN DISREGARDED SO THAT SOMEONE RETURNING COULD BRING HIS MATES ALONG. "QUALIFICATIONS & EXPERIENCE" IS NOTHING WITHOUT PERFORMANCE.

ENOUGH DRIBBLE, NEVER READS LIKE I MEAN IT TO.
BETTER CRACK ANOTHER BOTTLE OF THAT FINE DUTY FREE BUSHMILLS.

G'DAY, DUMPSY!!!! :ok:

[DutchRoll]

That's excellent news jafa.

It means that after next year, we can expect never to have another thread or comment on '89 posted on PPRUNE ever again.

[stable approach]

DutchRoll,
That's the spirit!
Let's all use the fine example of the Japanese politicians.
We'll erase it from the history books, erase it from the memory banks - and just pretend it never happened!

[jafa]

Dunno about that, dutch roll, but I imagine it does mean that the historians among us who seem to like to say "It's been over since -----" will have an actual date. August 2004.

Unless of course Messrs ANTNQF take up their option in the meantime.

(I hope I have my facts right - relying on memory and third parties as usual - confirm or deny, anyone?)

[Ralph the Bong]

Staute of limitations, anyone..

[amos2]

Wishful thinking guys!...

we ain't ever gonna let you lot of the hook!...

learn to live with it for the rest of your days!...

poor sods!!

:p

[DutchRoll]

It's OK Stable, I didn't ask for it to be erased from the history books. I have no objection to the airline pilot body remembering it. I mean, it was probably the most severe shafting of the airline pilot body in history (but the lads did make some crucial mistakes). My objection is merely to the extreme vitriol & mouthing-off from both sides which inevitably accompanies any '89 discussion. Kinda reminds me of the WW1 trench mentality........

The Lieutenant orders 'fix bayonets', and blows his whistle knowing full well his men will be mown down by machine gun fire. The survivors retreat back into the trenches, regroup, & he blows his whistle again & off they go. And so it goes on until there are no survivors. The same thing is then repeated by the other side, etc, etc.:ugh:

[amos2]

I think you need to relearn your history Roll! :rolleyes:

but you'll learn, perhaps one day, laddie!

[DutchRoll]

Well, I'm sure you'll educate me, amos2.

[Raingauge]

Where is Dr Phil when you need him?:confused:

[oicur12]

Amos,

Ahhmmm.......I dont think the returnees are actually on "the hook".

Just because thier actions dont align with your narrow, outdated view of the world doesnt actually mean a hell of a lot.

Get over mate. Take some ritlin.

[rockarpee]

Let us never forget the Yellow Peril, and don't forget about the Jew taking over the world, or was it the Muslim, maybe it was both, yes it WAS both, and them coloureds from the south dag nab it. We sorted them out thats for sure. And them Commies, thank the good lord we sorted them. Now the evil ex Ansett pilots. And they ARE evil, Just look at the shape of there foreheads, definitely evil, I have seen the measurements of their skulls and they fit that evil profile. And guess what. Check under your beds folks, they are all there. WAITING.:confused: :bored: :ooh:

[TIMMEEEE]

Thats ok Rockarpee,well said.

We're not racist,we just hate blacks,wogz,slopes,poor people,the indegent,homosexuals and Bob Hawke!!
Did I forget to mention Winstun or anyone else??

[What-ho Squiffy!]

Basil Fawlty says: "Still.....Forgive and forget, eh Major?"

Let it go. Have a beer.


:}

[fartsock]

Well folks it has happened, the "Lawnmower Man" has been confirmed as the A330 technical pilot with promotion 800 numbers out of seniority attached.

For detail see Qrewroom or the Flt Ops Intranet website.

Unbelivable.....

[Gnadenburg]

Fartsock

The Lawn Mower man is harmless. He will talk to you like an ol friend as long as there is nobody else in the room of higher authority or rank. If so you will be dropped like a hot potato mid sentence- a relief for many.

It was not nice to see many of the Young Guns of AN management bomb out on QF testing. That they were in the system weeks later an indication that their protege TJ, had some loyalty to his former staff after all.

If QF Airbus manuals are anyway Ansettised, you will be in trouble. They were basterdised and a mess.

I thought Ansett collapsed due bad management. So somewhere there are exAN bad Managers! The whole exAN Flt Management team has been vacumed up by either QF or SQ.

[Wizofoz]

Fartsock,

You say "It's Happened"

Your original post said a number of ex-AN pilots were going to be promoted out of turn in return for a pay cut.

What "Happened" was that someone with previous management experience has been utilised in a non- line flying role, entirely in keeping with QFs agreements with the AIPA.

Your original contention was outrageous, but clearly hasn't "Happened", nor is it likely to.

[amos2]

Ah!... Wizzo, Wizzo...showing your true colours again!

You are so transparent it aint funny!! :rolleyes:

[fartsock]

Wiz,

It is a flying role. As the tech pilot his job is to deliver the aircraft. How he does that from the RHS with no tech experience is anyones guess.

I couldnt give a fcuk how much management experience this joker had with Ansett, the fact is he had been promoted 800 numbers out of seniority to do a job that a number of experienced qualified captains could do.

I have heard this afternoon that he is a 'mate' of TJ's and this is why the appointment has occured - it has nothing to do with 'being the best man for the job'

That is the issue - if you can't see it and you are a QF pilot than frankly you are a bloody idiot.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

I didn't know Jim had an ATPL.

[FatEric]

Gnadenburger,

Actually the A320 manuals used in the final stages of the Ansett op were pretty much Airbus.

Much better than the crap used where I am now or the garbage pushed by some other Airbus operators.

Fartsock.

“It is a flying role. As the tech pilot his job is to deliver the aircraft. How he does that from the RHS with no tech experience is anyones guess.”

No tech experience!! He has about 6000 hours of airbus time – it is the same endorsement. Any QF pilots got more than couple hundred hours.


Good to see teamwork is alive and well at Qantas. The company does the right thing (with AIPA’s ok) by promoting an experienced pilot to help with the introduction of a new type (we are talking about one person) and the troops are up in arms.

[Nose Wheel]

Exactly right FE

The 320 is a CCQ course to the 330 or 340 - sounds to me as if some people have a bee stuck up their A@#.

Get off your high horses and do some extra study and gain some extra qualifications and those that are offended won't have time to bleat on this web as much.

The guy has the experience and the background to back it up - get over it.

Time to duck out of the firing line and have another beer or 3. :E

[ur2]

I totaly agree with the last post, apart from being a bit of a bum licker, he would be perfect for the job. he has good cred with Airbus and knows all the Airbus Technical managers in France.He knows the A320, A330 backwards.
You tools would be lucky to have snapped him up. Qantas has already knocked back some of the best, don't muck this one up either.

[Kaptin M]

we are talking about one person

The sort of response that Wizofoz and his like-minded scab friends use to justify their queue jumping!

The seniority system in QANTAS has been a long established and abided by agreement - until now. As it was with Ansett, East-West, Australian (TAA), and IPEC until 1989, when the then companies also decided to dispose of the seniority system.
For whatever reason, the seniority system is seen as an apparent threat to today`s management, whereas past management were able to work with it effectively, and profitably.

Yes, this latest promotion - from the bottom - DOES have an adverse effect on all of the 800 pilots ahead of The Lawn Mower Man, in threatening their promotional prospects, their salaries, and their job security.
There is an ISSUE - a PRINCIPLE - under threat here, and not surprisingly by the same people who helped destroy the careers of 1640 other Australian pilots!

Add to this the loss of routes to Australian and Jet Connect...loss of QF mainline flying that ALSO impacts on command prospects in the shorter term, and salary & conditions in the longer, and one has to wonder that if NOW is not the time for AIPA to take some form of action, then when EVER will be!!

[ur2]

Well Kaptain M , you were happy to be a que jumper when you applied to go back before March 1990.

[Wizofoz]

Much like Japanese airlines starting low cost subsiduries and cutting their own pilots wages by getting in cheap foreign DE Captains..

[Winstun]

Tired out more drivel from Kaptin on self-percieved principals....:hmm: He would be one of the very first back in Oz snapping a good opportunity if there was one available to him. Instead he's condemmed to clutching at the D&G pprune forum for homesickness... :zzz: On the other hand, I really don't see how hiring any ex-Ansett management is a smart move. The company drove themselves out of business, even from a very comfortable market position (in anybody's languague)...:rolleyes: I would be extremely wary of ex-Ansett technical apptitude seeing they modified 767s for a flight engineer..:ooh: Can only guess what they were doing with A320s....:uhoh:

[Master of the House]

From my understanding the indervidual has been appointed a management position, and that he will remain as a second officer, only that he will be the only SO on the A330. No promotion out of the ranks. No reason why the tech pilot can't be an SO if he is the best man for the job.

[Cap10 Caveman]

I would be extremely wary of ex-Ansett technical apptitude seeing they modified 767s for a flight engineer..

Winstun,

It was not Ansett's choice to have the FE station in the 767s, the union played a big part in this. In the end Ansett had them removed as soon as they were permitted to do so.


he will be the only SO on the A330.

Not for much longer, wait until the A330 takes over the 767 international routes.

Cheers

CC

[Pimp Daddy]

I may be wrong, but is there not usually a provision in seniority systems for people who have been "jumped" to be paid at the higher rate until a position at the higher rank is available?

I'm not familiar with the QF system.

[The Enema Bandit]

My Victa needs fixing. Can anyone out there help???

[ccy sam]

How did he get the name 'lawn mower man'?

[Ralph the Bong]

Because he used to cut the grass..actually, from the title of the thread, one could be mistaken for thinking that it refered to ex AN 146 drivers and cockpit fumes..:hmm:

[Gnadenburg]

Fat Eric & Nose Wheel

Two gents with either an Ansett flight management association or were smiled upon favourably by Trevor's Team.

" Actually the A320 manuals used in the final stages of the Ansett op were pretty much Airbus".

Let us consider that Ansett was an A320 launch customer. Impressive stuff but Ansett lacked the management expertise to be an evolved operator.

The initial manuals were Ansett versions. Complicated and full of holes. The DME arrival procedure was done the same way as Granddad did in ANA DC3s; but further complicated by the hybird manuals with some Airbus calls. It was verbally impossible to give the required calls on DME approach. One of hundreds of holes.

So they had those antiquated manuals until a half caste Ansett/Airbus set was introduced. The road to FCOM.

Finally, within days of the collapse, we received full FCOM. Aswell as a terse phone call from a management pilot to ensure we understood the total change in SOPS -virtually overnight . What a ridiculous expectation and considering the stress on crews at the time irresponsible. Nobody jeopardised their jobs so all nodded appropriately.

Post 89 Ansett Flight Management failed to successfully introduce a new aircraft type. The 747 disaster was partly due the confusion of crews due unclear manuals. We were lucky on the 320 because the experience levels were high, which made flexibility and adjustment easier.

The management was purged and Team TJ came onboard. Again Ansett Flt management failed. The CRJ fiasco!

What's the point?

Great to see exAN Flt Management snapped up and re-employed. Their managerial experience, who needs it?

[fartsock]

Further to Gnads post,

A well placed source in touch with AIPA that the "Lawnmower Man" will be made a 'landee second officer'

This means that he will get a first class endorsement on the aircraft and will operate as an F/O when he flies

I also understand that their will be further appointments soon along the lines of the above - as I stated in the first post.

There is no way to describe this behaviour as anything else but an act of scabbery of the highest order.

To the ex AN crowd on this thread who have lept to LM's defence - fcuk off, you have had your chance and blew it.

[GT-R]

Do you have a problem with dual endorsed management pilots fartsock ?

[FatEric]

Winstun

“I really don't see how hiring any ex-Ansett management is a smart move. The company drove themselves out of business”

The person in question was not a business manager but an operations department manager.

Fartsock

Exactly what behavior are you talking about? He has done nothing more than accept a new position within the organization. Take it up with QF if you don’t like it.

“To the ex AN crowd on this thread who have lept to LM's defence - fcuk off, you have had your chance and blew it.”

Ahmm. No. We wont fcuk off. Sorry, does our presence bother you. (Exactly what chance did “we” blow anyway)?

One person has been promoted within QF as a result of his experience on the new airbus and you guys are acting like it’s the end of the world.

How are you going to cope when the real action starts – ever heard of jetconnect.

[oicur12]

Fartsock.

Do you think QF is a profitable carrier because you and your co-workers are efficient and productive employees?

Do you think AN went under because the pilots were inefficient.

Do you realize QF was more unprofitable back in the days of being a Government enterprise than AN ever was in its darkest hour.

[M Nitpak]

FS

Go and take a bex and have a long lie down. :D

[Kaptin M]

FE, I would assume the "chance" that fartsock has mentioned was aimed at the scabs of '89 - those that greedily rushed in to take a position to which they had previously been found unacceptable, or considered unqualified - and that having stolen that position, took delight in then further rorting the Ansett system by flying around at stick shaker speeds to further line their pockets!
The result - they killed the goose that laid the golden egg.
RIP Ansett.

One person has been promoted within QF as a result of his experience on the new airbus and you guys are acting like it’s the end of the world.One is the thin end of the wedge. In an airline that - until now - has had an established seniority system, this may WELL herald the beginning of "end of the world" of that system.
A precedent is being set on this front.

And on another, Jet Connect and Australian.

Hopefully AIPA has a bypass clause in place, that will at least allow the 800 or so QF pilots who have been dis-advantaged by the Lawn Mower Man's promotion, to be financially compensated.

The argument that "it's only 1", is the same as the "only a little bit pregnant" excuse. These things have a habit of growing!!

"There is no way to describe this behaviour as anything else but an act of scabbery of the highest order.".
Second time around, FS - and to think that you (QF) guys thought that 1989 wasn't part of your fight as well, back then.
You sure got the title of your thread right!

[oicur12]

Kap M.


There is only ONE A330 fleet. Probably will require only ONE tech pilot.

[Gnadenburg]

Some of the exAN posters here would have us believe Flight Management played no part in the demise of Ansett.

The most influential catalyst was a bumbling exQF Fleet Manager whose role in the 767 groundings reprehensible.

The stuff ups by Ansett Flight Management were regular and monumental. Difficult to put a financial figure on that but i would be confident in saying their ineptitude cost Ansett irrecoverably.

The most poignant point I can make is that Ansett failed to introduce a single aircraft type post 1989. A promising Ansett International never reached the heights or recovered after the 747 bungling. The CRJs failure, actual total concept failure, was a final spiral. And that was TJ's baby.

Myself and many of my former Airbus colleagues, who flew the aircraft for years at home and now approaching our first years abroad, would say you have been bluffed regarding the "experience" required for this position. The bluff would have a pompous TJ's backing. Only a QF Flight Management team, who takes themselves a little too seriously, could fall for this ladder climbing exercise.

FS

I feel you are tarring all us exAN with the same brush. There was only ever one Lawn Mower Man. And all of us normal blokes at Ansett always thought he was in the wrong airline. We felt he better served the QF Long Haul stereotype!

Still glad the bloke got a job. Wouldn't wish unemploment hell on anybody.

[CallButton]

What's all this crap about utilising this 'experienced' bloke to introduce a new type??

The aircraft is already operating!! What is the point of his position now?

[ur2]

Well Capt, You were happy to consider que jumping in Jan 1990.

[Spotlight]

Gee, that shows an originality of thought.

[Alotta]

Kaptin M and co, why don't you put the boot on the other foot and just imagine if it was Qantas that went under and not Ansett.

Very unfair comments

[fartsock]

Gnads,

Good point (in yr last post) well made.

I too have many ex-AN friends, some in QF.

I have only been ever refering to the worst of a small bad bunch. Unfortunately like a high fibre turd they are beginning to float to TJ's top...

[amos2]

Isn't anybody who joined Ansett after 89'...

a "high fibre turd" ?

[Sub-Sonic MB]

GB seems to imagine his facts are correct in relation to the AIPA deal in '89.
The truth was Bobby bought off the AIPA with a deal which gave them around 20% over three payments. He certainly did not want QF involved. To suggest he wanted to involve QF pilots is a nonsense.
AIPA being lead as it was/is, bought it and again snubbed the professional colleagues they loved to hate.
QF flying domestic routes sanctioned by the AFAP is irrelvant to this argument.
AIPA was, and remains, extraordinarily weak as a body, and completely disinterested in the profession of airline pilot, thanks to the GW's who lead them out of the AFAP.
The big picture escaped them, and the day cometh when you will regret it, because the rot has set in.
You best realise, all pilots, that united you can stand, and divided you will fall, and if you can't see that that has happened as much to the scabs as you think it did to the 89er's, then I am afraid you lack the intellect to hold an ATPL.

[Going Boeing]

Sub-Sonic MB

From your posts I can only assume that you are very bitter and are not prepared to accept facts. The low life who was PM at the time did not make any deal with AIPA (he hated International pilots as much as he hated domestic pilots) and the only pay rises that QF pilots got post 89 were as a result of giving away a lot of conditions through the EBA process - and we do regret giving away some of the conditions.

If you had talked to any QF pilots during the dispute, you would have seen just how much support that we were giving our domestic peers - this is fact wheras the assertions in your post are just bull$hit.

GB

[amos2]

Well, I gotta tell ya Going Boeing, if you're trying to tell us that your lot supported the domestics during the 89' dispute, then you're either a fool or weren't around at that point in time!

So I suggest you're the one sprouting Bull$hit, not SubSonic!

Besides, the Qantas acceptance of scabs during and after 89' is the reason why Qantas is known around the world as a scab airline!

Are you not aware of that?

[DutchRoll]

Isn't anybody who joined Ansett after 89'.......a "high fibre turd"
.....................Qantas is known around the world as a scab airline!
Rather sweeping statements, don't you think Amos? Perhaps it's time to get a repeat on that Valium prescription.:rolleyes:

[amos2]

Sweeping statements Roll?...true!

also true statements I would suggest!

where were you in 89'?

[DutchRoll]

Not in the airline industry. But I remember 89 quite well.

[CDM]

Amos 2

Fact or opinion?
Have you considered professional help, it is available?