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SFly
12th Aug 2001, 01:38
Hmmm, Manchester appear to have a new SID.
Manchester SID (http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/ad/32CC0604.pdf)

SFly

chiglet
12th Aug 2001, 02:19
Yep, the "LISTO" SID replaces the CONGA.
"Some" a/c were flying a Conga after being given [and read back] a HONILY SID :eek:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Cough
12th Aug 2001, 13:24
Coz our LNAV HON sid looks like a cross of the two. Flying the sid in heading sorted it though. Guys might have been flying the magenta line....

SFly
16th Aug 2001, 00:39
So, I take it this is just the CONGA SID but they renamed CONGA to LISTO???

411A
16th Aug 2001, 01:41
Guys flying the magenta line....well yes, now the ideal way for the 'new generation' types, and if the magenta line leads you WRONG, does ANYONE back this up with raw data or does the 'new type pilot' rely completely on the box? Sounds like ANOTHER case of situational awareness out the window.

Pandora
16th Aug 2001, 03:20
Went to an 'Enhancing operational awareness' day earlier this year and was gobsmacked by the crusty old LH blokes attitude to raw data flying - why do it when you've got a nice pink string?
I expressed my disbelief, particularly at the statement 'backup instruments don't need to be switched on - the computers never fail on modern aircraft' Well they do. An FMC failed on me one month after I completed line training. The response from the crusties was 'there, there dear. You'll stop being so keen once you've been at this job a few years.'
We flew a Honiley 1Y today using raw data. It never looks like the pink string. Any sensible pilot would ignore it.

Few Cloudy
16th Aug 2001, 20:31
Which begs the legal question - if flying a designated RNAV SID, shouldnīt we do it in RNAV?

And if we canīt (cos the box isnīt updated yet shouldnīt we inform ATC that we are navigating raw?

Cough
17th Aug 2001, 21:36
Don't think that either the Honiley or LISTO SIDS are RNAV only. Fly 'em how ya like!

BmPilot21
19th Aug 2001, 17:06
We have a HON 1YM which is a midland only RNAV departure. As Few Cloudy says, this MUST been flown using LNAV (as must the Paris SIDS).

We are only allowed to fly SIDs in LNAV if it is in the NAV database.

Since when has RAW DATA been totally accurate??!! You intercept the HON VOR 157 radial 62 miles from HON!

VOR's are only accurate to +/-5 degrees due their various errors +/- 1 degree site error, 1 degree propagation (scalloping) and 3 degree aircraft equipment errors).

That means you could be up to 2 miles off course for the VOR errors, and 5 miles accounting for the worst allowable aircraft equipment - hardly more accurate than a GPS and DME/DME updated FMS!

[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: BmPilot21 ]

lets go nads
19th Aug 2001, 19:12
Our airline at major noise sensitive airports MAN,GLA,BHX,LGW in fact most UK airports we now operate from Fly SIDS raw data if the following criteria are met.

1. A turn of more than 20 degrees inside five miles.The sid is flown between 200and 220 kias until the completion of the turn with the appropriate flap setting within the speed range.Once the magenta line looks accurate and crosschecks with ground based aids LNAV is engaged.The airline has had massive success in resricting the number of SID track violations.It is being looked at being incorporated to most of our overseas destinations although personally do not see the point in that.! :p

williamsf1
24th Aug 2001, 17:16
hey lets go nads,

by any chance did you do your training in South Australia? in 94-95??

get back with a note if you can....


go Montoya!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :D