Work for free.... Are you mad !!!!!

[TwinNDB]

The company that I work for has just been done out of a contract by another Charter company because the owner undercut our quote by saying to his new CPL holders that they can get 50 or so hours if they work for free.

This has not only disadvantaged our company and I do work for a boss who will always try and do the right thing by his pilots and staff ie pay, but continues to undermine the industry that we all work in.

I cant see the benefits in EVER working for free and it continually annoys me that there are pilots out there that will do it. There must be someway that we can get through to shiny new guys that it only hurts them. The contract involved about 150hrs (min)flying and is obviously valuable work for a company but should not be at the expense of the pilot.

I also cannot understand how a pilot could consider working for free. If every pilot out there decided to do the honest and best thing by not working for free then we wouldnt have people doing it because of the "if i dont someone else will" mentality. For example if all the pilots in their company had told their boss to shove his plan up his ar$e then he would have had to put a fair quote in.

I'm not against decent competition or even another company getting a contract that we also applied for but am rather pi$$ed of with little $hits who will work for free!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Twin

[compressor stall]

Has the company who awards the contracts been informed of this? It may change the way they award contracts in the future. It may not either...but it may be worth a try.

[TwinNDB]

Yes we have told the company of the reasons surrounding the lesser quote but got a reply to the effect of "what can we do, they're cheaper". It s not really their fault though, they have a business to run, its the fault of the other operator and the pilots who do not have the balls to tell him to get stuffed.

[YardGlass]

Working for free is such a sad, sad thing to have to do. I know because I did it. I could not get a job with my low experience, so I went out and got 250hrs worth of PJE (free) time and then landed a good job.

I don't know if I agree with those who proclaim "it will only hurt you" etc. Maybe someone would like to explain this statement?

Obviously if every new pilot refused to work for free, no pilot would ever have to. The most basic law in life is that of supply and demand. Unfortunately there is a large supply of pilots and very low demand for thier services. It's not the pilot's fault for electing to work for free, it is the employer's who say to them "we don't pay you." If you knew you'd get a good job if only you had a couple of hundered more hours, what would you do? Stack shelves, or fly for free and stack shelves at night?

Good luck to the newbie CPLs. Do not work for free unless you find no alternative. Idiotic operators who go thru 10 pilots per year beacause they don't pay them invariably pay more in the long run.

[Hugh Jarse]

Yardglass, to me it has everything to do with the pilot's work ethic, rather than the operator.

What a cop-out.

Your last paragraph is hypocritical in the extreme. What a load of garbage. Operators who pay 10 CPL's nothing will pay nothing in the long run, because people like you choose to take no remuneration!

People like you have to share equal responsibility with the operators for accepting no pay.

[Ejector Pump]

Geez, even Prossies get paid when they get f...d over.

[Seaeagle109]

I'm proud to say that after I paid to get my licence/rating I have not worked for free(even though I was unemployed for quite some time before gaining my first commercial aviation employment; it was just as tough to get a start back in the economic downturn of the early 1980's as it is now); I have paid for endorsements that I use for my own entertainment but not those I use professionally.

We are a trained, skilled profession and I will not provide my skills for free( charities excepted); if I am now, and ever was, worth my salt then I expect to be paid for the skills I provide.

Those of us that work for free are doing the majority a huge disservice; there is an obligation to leave aviation and the profession better than when you entered it.

Do not ever fly for free for a commercial aviation enterprise. For a charity or club as a member maybe, but never for someone who is profiting from the work you do.

A man/ woman is worthy of their labour and should be paid for their efforts.

Remember, when you get to where you want to go in aviation that it is better to look back on how you got there and have no regrets or shame for your actions, than to look back and say I wish I hadn't sold my myself and peers out.

They say moral courage is just as important as physical courage and that maybe food for thought on this special day for all Australians.

End of semi drucken rant.

[cath]

We could also consider that paying for ICUS is as bad as working for free. :eek: :eek:

Other industries provide on the job training to qualified professionals beginning their careers. Why should we have to pay for it....

Then again we could stop complaining and get on with it

:D :D :D

(I never say anything just to start trouble, really:D )

[spinout]

Why not get intouch with the ACCC i am sure mr Fels would be interested in unfare competition....

[rainbow]

Agree with spinout. Get some proof, stat decs, documents etc and give it to the good professor. Copies to the ACTU and the shadow ministers of aviation/labour and industry etc.

Don't bother with the government. They would applaud the practice as a flexible workplace arrangement.:mad:

[hueywsh]

I have had my CPL for over 12 years, and although I fly only on a casual basis as I have a job that I can't afford to leave, I have never been paid a cent for the work I have done.

I don't have millions of hours but I have given employers over 300 hours during my career.....for nothing. I did not question this as this is what I was told when I got into the industry.

Seeing these posts really hit home that I have been "used" over the years, which I just thought was normal practice within the helo industry.

I could not afford to leave my current employer and go flying due to the economic realities of the situation. I am sure there have been other people out there that have been told similar.

I am not bitter, but disappointed that operators will take advantage of wide eyed students that will do anything for hours.

[375ml]

It may be of interest that outside aviation, many people lacking experience jump long recruitment queues by offering to start on "two weeks work experience" for free, with no retention obligation (unpaid probabtionary employment I suppose). In the real world (!) most people won't work for much longer than that without income - I guess in this industry there are probably a few too many subsidised rich boys.

[Towering Q]

To all those "shiny CPL's" out there who don't object to flying for nothing.

Your non-paid duties will also include: emptying bins, answering phones, compiling quotes (a handy task as you can pinch the jobs from the other drivers), picking up the mail (in your own car of course), mowing lawns and pulling weeds, sweeping hangar floors (it's too expensive to get the LAME to do it), picking up parts for the LAME including his lunch (nothing against the LAME, he's a very busy man), delivering leaflets promoting the company (more unpaid flying for you maybe?), washing the aircraft (not a bad job if it's 35 degrees plus), updating all the paperwork when that nasty man from CASA is due to appear (he wants to close us down so you wont be able to fly anymore!), fixing the air conditioning (very much in your interest if it's good weather for washing planes)...the list goes on...hop to it girls and boys.

[I Fly]

I agree with compressor stall, and you said you told the company. Good, but tell them that the pilots flying are so inexperienced that they can't get a paid job. Inexperienced pilots need a job where they get decent supervision. Are the supervisors getting paid and DOING their job? In any case working without pay is counterproductive. As soon as you get enough experience to work for money, some one else will do THAT job for free. And so it goes up the foodchain.

[TIMMEEEE]

As a former chief pilot of a company in the NT many moons ago employing close to a dozen pilots in the dry season, one of the more interesting aspects of the job was receiving and replying to resume's of low time CPL holders.

These resumes varied from short one/two page concise to the point and down to earth resumes (which we preferred) to others with photographs of themselves with more gold braid and stripes than a decorated Battle of Britain fighter ace standing in front of some shiny jet transport after having described in detail their work experience at McD's and Pizza Hut! (good to have done but just too much info for me).

Occasionally we would get the resume which included such comments as "Being the son of a wealthy grazier............I am prepared to work for free for the first 6 months".
Also the same thing was touted by others not so financially secure which really concerned myself and my colleagues.

These resumes were dealt with the following way after having contacted those pilots and told them how by offering to fly for free they are cutting the throats of every pilot in the industry and potentially denying themselves a viable future as well paid professionals : FILED IN THE BIN WHERE IT BELONGED.

This method of dealing with these kind of people had the unanimous vote of all our company pilots (and subsequently every pilot I've ever spoken to about it) and every AFAP rep I spoke to at the time.

Dropping parachutists for nicks seems to be a long time tradition and one thing, but to contact a company that pays their pilots the correct GA award and maintained their company aircraft to a good standard and offer to fly for free to me is lower than snake****!

The industry has no room for these low-lifes who are effectively robbing others like yourselves of a future.

[thinking pilot]

The question that should be asked is how does one survive without being paid?. Someone else is paying for them, rich dad maybe. If I was an employer I could not live with myself if I exploited people like this. I know a few in Darwin who live by these rules though. Pilots who allow themselves to be exploited are weak and there are no exuses to justify this action. Most people don't look at the bigger picture. We live in an increasingly gready society where this is looked apon as a positive human trait.

[Aviation_sl#t]

G'day,

I think it is time to get rid of all the smoke and mirrors and let everybody know the name of this company. Why should they get away with this outrageous conduct and be able to rip these pilots off?. Lets face it guys, if you were in this situation considering the aviation climate of late, would you say no?. I think the only way EVERYBODY will get an informed view of what is going on is to force this company to make public (on this board or otherwise) why they do this.

I am sick to death of people from other industries (nursing, teachers etc ) with ample opportunites and paying conditions that F*&%ing winge about what they go through with unions and all behind them, whilst the G.A pilots of this country get treated in this way. Unfair dismissals, discrimination, underpay/no pay, coercion and bad working conditions are something that most of us will face in OUR careers and just accept it! Imagine if this happened to nurses or teachers or any other specialized industry.

I appeal to Woomera on behalf of the pilots that want to do the right thing, let those in the know publish the name of this company on this board. If they have nothing to hide then all will be well and we will get their reasons. If they are hiding something then this industry will be better off when they realise that pilots need to get paid!


A.S.

[Slasher]

Years ago we had one of these fly-for-free puke wannabees with a silver spoon up his @rse come in every day and lick the anal-chute of a certain Company owner in the NT (not yours TIM). Unfortunatley the bloodey owner started to like him and his ideas. So at 3am a bunch of us slashed his tyes and trashed his nice new shiney bike. The pr!ck suspected us and reported it to the cops but he picked the wrong station because the cops were drinking-mates of ours. It took two of us (consecutiveley over 2 weeks) to f**k his GF behind his back before the message finaly sunk in.

Bloodey wimp bawled his eyes out as we publicaly jeered the little sh!t and saw him off on the TN flight to make sure the b@stard did leave. Pr!ck.

Tough measures but it was either that or havin our alreadey crap-pay possibley "adjusted" in the future.

[TwinNDB]

I feel no need to publically name the operator as i have no intention of ever flying for such a company. It would however give me alot of pleasure in naming the little sh!ts who will be doing the work for free so that any other operaters out there may decide not to employ them later on. Unfortunately i cant do this as i do not know their names and even if i did i dont know how correct it would be to shame them on the internet without their knowledge. Although it would feel good :D

Maybe i need some drinking friends in the force hey slash!

[zzzzz]

Any pilot that works for free undervalues both his/her self and the entire industry.
Operators should consider perhaps how these "staff" treat both their valuable clients and expensive machines!
Anyone who works for free and takes bread out of the mouths of guys trying to make an honest living should be blackballed from operating from any decent company in their hopefully limited futures,

[YardGlass]

G'day Hugh Jarse.

Sorry, I didn't quite make myself very clear. Speaking from my own experience, the operator I "worked" for does pay more in the long run, as all the (very many) pilots he goes thru each year flog the sh!t out of his a/c. Blown cylindars, cracked pistons, smashed oleos, run-ups on gravel etc. Operators who do not respect pilots (by not paying them) can expect no respect in return for thier a/c.

I was not talking about pilots who seek to undercut paid pilots by offering services for free. This type are not worth paying anyway.

I hope this clarifies.

[pullpowa]

Interesting stuff guys....

casting my mind forward some years into the future, when CASA has completely killed the industry that feeds CASA, where will all the lil newbies come from. Surely careers advisors would have to have big rocks in their head to recommend a career in aviation....So lil Johnny from Snob college goes to be an accountant. eventually the ageing population:D will deliver more pilots retiring madatorily than entering the industry...Then what?

The industry that survives will need to pay for the people doing the work and problem solved....sorta

Except for the lil rich kids rocking up in thier new Honda Prelude with VH-Pilot licence plates, a genuine rolex and no need to earn money..

Geez I think that is called an endless loop........I'm getting off,there is no answer it always is and always will be dog eat dog......

"9 iron please James.............".
:D :D :D :rolleyes: :eek:

[lackov]

Pullpowa,

More than likely spot on on both counts (unfortunately). But doesn't that mean that the two effects you describe will cancel each other out, and that this aspect of GA will be untainted (for good or bad) by CASA's plans? Think KAOS theory for more info..

Slasher, gotta love karma eh? Poetry in motion.

[enaires]

Slasher...maybe next time try talking to the bloke in question...is there need to commit a crime to "teach" someone something? If you did what you said, your attitude revolts me. Even more if your copper "mates" turn a blind eye...sad state of affairs!

Dont work for free, that is part of being a professional.

[cath]

As well as an instructor I'm also a registered nurse. Now during our training we had about 6 months full time (in total) of work at various hospitals. Unpaid of course. Used to be that student nurses were paid for the work we did, not any more. It's not only flying where professionals work for free, its all part of learning the job. Medical students, too. Dont know about other professions.

Some small amount of getting to know the job is required, however i agree that the operators are not entirely sensible, they will have a high turnover with unsatisfied and inexperienced pilots.

To all those who whinge about "rich boys" turning up in expensive cars ... get a life... stop blaming your problems on others....the best way to succeed is to take responsibilty for yourself and accept that the world is inequitable! blah blah blah. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

SKC

[Square Bear]

Cath

Stick to your full time job and the great salary it generates. If you want to have a bit of a dabble in aviation as an instructor, go ahead and do so.

But have a heart, until your sole income comes from aviation realize that you probably have no idea at all what these guys are talking about.

[cath]

true square bear, i can see your point. I guess im lucky to know that i have something to fall back on. Trouble is, I'm now addicted to flying, and the full time job just seems like... welll... a job...

[SurveySlut]

interesting thread, having just watched a job go to a pilot who was not qualified for a job, though i'm sure his daddy will be paying for his "on the job training" i'm staring to think the only way to rid aviation of these people is to publish a list of pilots names and blacklist the scum

Bend over and take it like a GA pilot

[safeskiesabove]

I say go away.

Have a good look at the amount of money it has cost you to get to where you are now, now tell me you don't ever want to earn money for it. If that is the case good and well buy a plane because you can obviously afford and compete in the open market for a few seconds, before you go into liquidation.
It's a snowball effect you fools.


EG:
PILOT(REAL PILOTS) WITH 150 HRS WOULD LIKE 250 HRS
" " 500 HRS WOULD LIKE 500 HRS
" " WITH 1000 HRS WOULD LIKE TURBINE
WHERE DO YOU END UP IF WE ALL DID THIS FOR EXPERIENCE ,
ACCORDING TO ME YOU WOULD GET PAID, NEVER....


IS THAT THE INDUSTRY YOU WANT?ASK YOUSELVES AND IT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH ANYMORE TO "IF I DONT TAKE IT SOMEONE ELSE WILL" BECAUSE EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE FOUND OUT.

- Look I know of all people how hard it is to get the first crack
"it's bloody hard but if you want it bad enough you will get it and you will feel very good about it.

i know one guy last week who is getting a go with our company who falls short by about 80 hrs off our requirements< but he's getting a go because of his attitude......

It's up to you new cpl's to keep the industry to the condition that it is at the moment and improve it, it does not feel good working your butt off and not getting paid.

Ask yourselves one more question.
If the operator isn't paying me, what else isn't he paying????????
think a/c

have a good day

[Slasher]

Big girls blouses like enaires personifys why candey-ass attitudes like his perpetuate the problem. In the NT problems were solved usin the old fashioned way.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

In my experience these little $hits invariably come fresh from the sausage factories, no way could they have earned the money to pay for the course so I guess Daddy is prepared to keep on forking out for a while..no doubt they think that only the "peasants" need to earn a living...and some actually look down on those who require payment for their services!

Anyway my point is that a lot of the blame for these attitudes lies squarely on the shoulders of the schools that teach these little $hits. They should be teaching a bit of ethics as part of the CPL course, but as many of these outfits have no ethics themselves, and the instructors are probably working for less than the award, the example is there and the rot sets in.

If I get a resume brought in by one of these little $hits with "scrambled egg" all over their unemployed shoulders and they say they will work for free, I tell them that we need people who will get along with the rest of the staff and for that reason they would obviously not be suitable. (ie they would be lynched!)

[429 CJ]

They should be teaching a bit of ethics as part of the CPL course

That's a good valid point CFI. Where and when would you start to teach it, and how would a school such as yours (or larger) go about it? Obviously you can just tell them straight, but how would you approach it re: not working for free?

Just curious, my background comes from another industry (ie; a trade, where that sort of prostitution is non-existant), before I decided to go flying, and while I was lucky enough to be able to position myself to gain some other bits and pieces of flying before I "went north", there are many who haven't been so lucky, and would almost kill for the opportunities to gain just that few more hours than the next candidate in their logbooks for that first full time job.

How would you approach it?

Regards,
CJ :)

[enaires]

Slasher, my response was on your attitude, not on your PERSON. I dont agree with what you say of the NT, because Ive been there, done that. There is no excuse for vilolence, verbal of physical.

And about this topic.. read what I wrote, I agree with you and others that working for free damages the situation for all. I am presently in the position of having lost a JOB flying (600 hours per year including good multi-engine) due to the aformentioned 'professional' pilots that do it for free or for ****** all. And I left on the basis of PRINCIPLE.


;)

[marshall]

How is a brand new CPL holder able to clock up 500 hours in order to get a decent job if they can’t be exploited? Rumor has it that I cannot get work, even up north with my CPL and a command instrument rating, as I need 500 hrs to meet the “insurance” requirements. It goes without saying that the first 500 hours are the hardest and the most annoying of a pilots career.

I could pay for 350 more hours (which would be costly) or do an instructor rating, but if I could work for “free” I could save myself a lazy $10000. The quality of my instruction could also be lacking, as I have no experience but a mere 160 hours!

Believe me when I say I am not having a dig at anyone. I am just very unsure what to do next. Working for free I thought was part and parcel, it just had to be done. Any feedback would be great as I am in limbo.

If anyone can give me any ideas on what to do next that would be greatly appreciated.


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

(CPL 160 hours and Night VFR)

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Timmeeee:

Well Said, I too was in a similar position, sorting out and making choices from resumes..

As a matter of courtesy, we managed to reply to all except those who offered to work for nix.

There was no lack of 'work for free' offers.

I have often read a lot a angry words on this forum about operators and companies.

Yes, there are a number of rotten apples in the system.

But, over the years, I've found most operators try to do the right thing and look after their pilots. Conditions, salary etc.

There are far more pilots willing to work for nothing and be exploited (by a minority of bad operators).

It's easy to see who the good guys are - they are the successful operators. A good indicator is their staff - companies with a relatively low turn over of staff must be doing something right.

As for Slasher;

Well, I don't quite agree with the methods but hey - some times you gotta do what you gotta do. Let's hope your colleague got the message.

Marshall Mate! What ever choice you make you have to live with!

The old insurance requirement is a good one. If we liked someone - we gave them a go and if they didn't meet minimums we changed them. Most policies say "xxx hours or as approved by Chief Pilot". So it's a good excuse instead of saying 'sorry - we don't like you'.

The idea is to sell your self. Be the pilot that will add to their company (that does not include workin for nothing). A lot of pilots get a couple of knock backs - send 10 letters then decide to try another ploy - Hey, what if I work for free!.

Doesn't work.

You may work for free for operator 'A' then decide you have enough in the logbook, leave and look for work with company 'B' that happens to do the right thing and pay well.

Well, it's a small industry and the good guys know who the bad guys are.

If you get into the 'work for free' cycle, then it's often hard to get a paying position as your resume (LOGBOOK) will follow you.

[Inka Dinka]

Charlie Foxtrot India

I can't believe I am reading stuff such as:
...blame for these attitudes lies squarely on the shoulders of the schools that teach these little $hits.
and:
...these little $hits with "scrambled egg" all over their unemployed shoulders

from apparently, a CFI, and a moderator.

Where's your compassion?

You should be standing up as a role model for the next generation of GA pilots. It's hard enough to get a start in this industry.:mad: :rolleyes:

Posts such as yours simply confuse and discourage. (Just look at marshall's situation.)

I understand that employing pilots who work for free undercuts 'the system', but young wannabees with little experience and plenty of vigour can pretty easily classed as 'desperate' when it comes to finding work with wings on it. Don't take it out on them.

A constructive way to continue this thread would be for someone to give some ideas about how to get from the 150 to the 500 hour experience level in a way that is acceptable to the majority.



(Hunkering down, tin hat on...:D)


ID
.

[Victa]

Well said Inka Dinka, I think a discussion on how newbies can get from 150hrs to 500hrs would be a lot more practical than cutting each others throat.

[SurveySlut]

one suggestion (it worked for me) i backpacked round africa knocking on doors..got a job that paid, lots of operators there employ low time fresh cpls and pay them. There's plenty of info on the africa forum of jobs over there.

have now returned back home after 3 years, why is it that some operators here don't have the decency to treat you like a human, are there that many cv's crossing their desk everyday??

[CitationJet]

The reality is nobody works for "free".

If the new CPL wasn't flying around in a chtr operators Baron, without receiving remuneration, he would be paying $450/hr to hire it.

Thus for each hour he gets out of a chtr operator whether paid or not he gains experience which would otherwise cost him $450/hr.

Hours in the logbook = money in the bank

The only way to stop this practice - if it needs to be stopped - is to eliminate logbooks.

Hire pilots on the basis of the qualifications they hold, and their demonstrated competency rather than the hours in their logbooks.

Scrap logbooks and people won't fly without pay.

[I Fly]

Victa, it's very simple. When you have 150 hours apply for jobs that require 150 hours. When you have 500 hours apply for jobs that require 500 hours. Learn to walk before you learn to run. Be mindfull that others are running already. One day you'll be running and would not like it if someone walking took your job.

[radar o'reilly]

my apologies to I Fly and my thanks to lackov .

a bad day indeed hindered my original post but is certainly no excuse. It was poor form, even though momentary.

even one of pprunes more famous wannabe's has times where his persistance is tested.

I suppose seeing I haven't got a job yet I can say I've never worked for free. :D :D

will someone please gimme a job....? :)

[lackov]

No one ever said any jobs were growing on trees....

They are out there, it just sometimes takes a bit of initiative and/or ingenuity to get a seat.

To make a sarcastic post such as yours, radar, hardly implies the open mind required. I've seen your other posts, and this one seems a bit out of character. I'll put it down to a bad day.

Perseverance is the key, as 'natural selection' is alive and well in aviation.

I'll support everything said here so far re the pay issue. NEVER work for free. To do so is taking one up the @rse yourself, and setting/continuing a precedent which dictates what other who follow you will have to put up with ("but the last guy did it for nothing", "I'm helping you by giving you this job, you know".......yeah, yeah, tell someone who gives a fu<k).

Have a little dignity..

[Islander Jock]

Marshall,

I feel sorry for the situation you have now found yourself in. I don't know where you trained and it is quite irrelevant. However one thing I'll bet for sure. They (your training organisation) gave you a real smooth sales pitch about how doing the 150hr CPL course would be "a great way to get started in your aviation career". Well mate, sorry to rain on the party but unless you were going for an airline cadetship the 150 hour course leaves you, with very few exceptions, almost unemployable in GA.

It is the schools that have a lot to answer for here. They should all, regardless of whether they are teaching a 150hr course from scratch or training a PPL with 750hrs to CPL standard, make it quite clear that having a CPL is no guarantee of employment as a pilot.

You can try and rationalise it any way you like but offering to work for free at the expense of another pilot losing his job IS NOT ON!

As for ways to build hours:

Hassel the DZ operators. Depending on the DZ, they do tend to go through pilots. You may or may not get paid but after all it is pvt ops and it's not unusual to log 10 hours in a weekend.

Get groups of non pilot type friends together and do some cost shares. We had a new CPL recently who took a bunch of her friends up the coast for a weekend in a 210. Cost her about $200.00 for 5hrs command time.

Another CPL I know was not given a job as such but made a deal that for any punters he brought in himself, he could take the charter. Obviously the operators insurance requirements have the final vote in this situation.

Good luck with it.

[429 CJ]

Firstly G'day CitationJet, and welcome...

If the new CPL wasn't flying around in a chtr operators Baron, without receiving remuneration, he would be paying $450/hr to hire it.

Thus for each hour he gets out of a chtr operator whether paid or not he gains experience which would otherwise cost him $450/hr.

Wow, that sure is a different way of looking at it! I can't say I hold with your view, in fact I disagree completely. I feel that after spending so much bl**dy hard earned $$ (remember, most of us didn't have mum and dad to pay for it), then why shouldn't someone expect to be re-imbursed for a job that they are doing? I'm also yet to see a "new CPL" blasting around in a Baron with circa 150 hrs.

Hours in the logbook = money in the bank

Mmmmm, na. Money in the bank=money in the bank.

Unfortunately, we have no say in the concept/keeping of an accurate record of our hours, that one lays squarely at the feet of our estemed regulator.

Regards,
4/J

[Slasher]

CFI. Spot-on girl! Thumbs-up.

Enaires can you see now? You lost your job, wimp. We didnt lose ours. Maybe the Territory has become a candey-ass Brady-Bunch version of itself nowadays but back then you could sort out these little fly-for-free sh!ts in a REAL way that got results. And BTW my little southern-state self-righteous PC pal, the NT cops we knew were bloodey down-to-earth decent blokes who Id drink with again any day. They couldnt stand the little @rsehole any more than we could.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Apologies if my previous post was a little heated, but it's an emotive subject.

lakov has summed it up very well.

429 CJ, we endeavour to produce CPLs who have a realistic view of the industry as well as achieving the flying standards required. And yes, this includes some plain talking about what it is really like out there, not empty promises, before they begin the course. If they don't like it then perhaps they are not cut out for it. We don't do the "integrated" course, but upgrade PPLs who have been out and built their hours and experience on their own initiatives rather than having it all spoon fed to them. We must be doing something right as not one of our CPL graduates has ever had to grovel for a job, or done any commercial flying for free.

One of the hard realities is that it really does matter where you train, and a prospective CPL should ask the school for evidence of first time pass rates and time to first job of graduates, and get some references from former CPL students to see how they went after qualifying. If you want help to decide where to train, ask some employers which school's graduates they prefer. Because from an employer's point of view there are CPLs and instructors from some organisations who quite simply have had inadequate training, and past experience has shown the expense and time required to get them up to speed simply isn't feasible, and it's not their fault the poor things, they just got sucked in by a clever sales pitch. Sometimes the only way these ones could get any work is to work for free. Because sadly that is all they are worth, and for many of them it is too late. Personally I prefer employees who have enough self respect to value themselves as they wish others to value them.

There is always paid flying work out there for those who are cut out for it, and who persevere. The number of hours you have are not necessarily as important as what you did in those hours, your maturity and general attitude. There are some great pilots out there with the minimum hours, and some really cr@p ones with plenty of hours.

Also the "work for free" advocates might like to consider this,...that if you are not getting paid, you are not covered by Workers Compensation Insurance (yup, saving your boss a few bob on those premiums too) so good luck to if you get injured in the course of your "employment".

[ANFO]

Couldn't help but laugh when I read Slasher's post on page 2. The whole post reads like a fantasy of "what I'd like to do..."; Slash, Ya can be anyone ya want to be on this forum mate, we dont care. Life experience has taught me that those who are genuinely tough have a gentle core and those who talk the talk, cant walk the walk. :D Now if your post IS true then you are a self confessed bully, vandal and criminal. :mad: If your post is true then you are fortunate that you didnt receive the conviction for wilful damage that you deserve, as such a coviction would exclude you from employment with any airline(or reputable security company!; ). Either way, you have damaged your own credibility. Sad.

[AV8 consultants]

The way I see it is a pilot with 150 hrs is looking for experience and is as keen as mustard. The problems lies there in that they are so keen that will do anything to get those hours and the operators take advantage of their naivity.

I was one of those people but never chose to fly for free. I used my unique character to market myself as "likeable" and managed to get a lucky break with none other than the CFI herself as a flight instructor! She was great to work for and at no time did I feel used, I even got a cash bonus at Xmas!

If we all look at the young recruits and hate them then we are in itself being so called "racist" to young fresh CPL's. They are not all the same , just looking for a break as I was. Operators should look at them as work experience and allow them to assist in day to day operations ie admin, washing an aircraft etc to see how the business runs . After a month they have proven themselves and been accepted by their workmates. If they are lucky they get a job, if not they get the experience to be more qualified for the next application to a prospective employer. You can't judge a persons character in the first five minutes. To work for free flying is unjust unfair and wrecks the industry. Besides, some times it's not what you know but who you know.

We have all worked for free at some time. Name one instructor who has not worked a full day, flown 2 hours, given 4 briefs, taken phone calls and filled out student files only to get paid for 2 hours flying! Salary paid instructors are usually with large schools over here. It is accepted as normal practice for a pilot to start work on contract. The problem is changing this attitude and if we start paying for the extra work it will put the prices up and make flying very expensive for the punter. Catch 22 comes to mind at this point, damed if you do and damed if you don't.

There are some new pilots that have worked for free but received training for free as payment. At the current aircraft rates I'd say that is a good deal for the short term employee but you can't live on air.

I have lost students that have started their training and after hearing other pilots talk about the industry and the low pay they have chucked it in. It's not worth it. Are we killing off the very industry that we are trying to promote by example and dissatisfaction? The real pilots are hooked, its not the money but the job itself, but you still have to pay the bills and $30 bucks an hour aint enough. If it could be supplimented by a lower hourly rate for ground duties we would be better off.

I feel both parties are guilty ( employers and employees) but the industry needs to be monitored. This is not happening and crap is seeping through the cracks.

It $hits me that I have paid a small fortune for this licence to fly and get paid squat per hour for my quals.
The industry standard needs a massive overhaul.

[Slasher]

Yeh yeh in answer to the email-barrage I admit we went a little overboard when we successivley banged his girlfriend. So Im sorry I was involved in that bit orright? :rolleyes:

ANFO stop pretending to think you know me pal. Youve never met me nor know what Im capable of. Im generous and reasonable to true mates, GFs etc but totaly the oposite to sh!ts like that (as well as the "hero" vermin you once shared cockpits with). Mind you we didnt lay a hand on that little fly.f.free @rsehole. Jimbo and Ian wouldnt have had any choice but to book us if we hadve been stupid enough to do that.

Enough said.

[Sum Ting Wong]

I was just wondering if any of these "shiners" had it explained to them that it's not all about the hours in the log book, its about quality flying for reputable operators and learning something each time u fly. May be that the new CPL's are at ease with the fact that while they are risking their lives for F$%^ All in dodgy a/c ill maintained by their bosses who are building castles in prime suberbia driving swave cars and buying boats with doormats on them which outline their work ethic!!!

Just keep on bending over peoples, the poo chutes will only get wider and easier to penetrate!!!

[VneII]

Hello All, I have just read all 4 pages of this post and feel that it is very appropriate with all the UGALs making the migration up north at the moment. It is my experience that most of them are ppruners and so will hopefully read this thread also.

DO NOT WORK FOR FREE - DO NOT OFFER TO WORK FOR FREE

CFI - I certainly agree with you, alot of schools are to blame, many are cpl factories pumping out young pilots with a head full of dreams and no realistic education on their prospects or the workings of the industry.

Marshall - I feel for you mate it was not to long ago I was standing in your shoes. All I can suggest is reseach the companies you will be approaching ( it shows interest and intelligence) travel, visit the operators and get yourself a rent paying job while you wait for the flying job to come along.

I know personally it is very hard to get that first job. The biggest factor is the pilot themselves. There is NO difference between a 200hr pilot and a 210hr pilot the one with the best attitude will get the job. If the 210hr guy got the extra 10hrs by flying for free I would hope he doesn't have a chance over the guy who didn't.

I read with amusement the full circle theory that proposes that in the future there will be a shortage of pilots and we will all get paid well for our skills. The problem is most people are in this industry for the love of flying. That is the factor that will always ensure an excess of pilots.

TO THOSE WHO OFFER TO FLY FOR FREE: I don't think we can work for free at any stage because anyone who does will eventually want to get paid so where do you draw the line ? 30hrs? 50hrs? 100hrs? If you do 100hrs for free and feel you are now compentent on the type and ask to be paid how would you feel when the boss says "no pack your bags I have another bloke lined up to do the next 100hrs for free"? Are you going to have a second job for your entire carrer while you work for free to progress to each level?

BLACKLISTS are not the answer. Pilots blaming pilots = fighting within the ranks. We need to work together to improve the integrity of our profession. There are the good and bad in every industry and I feel that the operators who take advantage of pilots who will fly for no renumeration are the ones who are degrading the industry as a whole. Once this stops we will be able to start to build the reputation of our profession to the hights is deserves.

It was suggested that trades and other professions like nursing are better off than us due to unionisation. Maybe we should bring back the union with compulsory membership [I am now ducking and covering my head in preparation for the fallout :D]. What is the solution????

We are highly trained skilled profesionals our service is a comodity that can be purchased - working for free hurts all of us. I heard a story of a green cpl offer to work for free to a company. The CP interviewed him and asked him just how much he was willing to offer ie gave him enough rope to hang himself and then proceeded to tell him that if $0 per hour is what he is woth as a pilot he didn't want him working for his company. He then rang the other operators on the strip and informed them about this guy. Perhaps a little extreme but it highlights how you can shoot yourself in the foot when you do the wrong thing.

good flying
VneII

[AV8 consultants]

VneII Here here buddy!

Slasher, I think there is a chip on your shoulder mate. Lose the attitude on this forum we don't need it.

[Sum Ting Wong]

now that ALL the problems with employment have been tuned identified and tested how do we fix them?

Any ideas???

[mppgf]

I really can not believe the attitudes of some people on this forum.I think that anybody who puts themselves through a CPL must want to be in this industry.It's all well and good pooing on people from a position of CFI,but just remember we were all 150 to 200 hr pilots at some time.It is a hard road and sometimes a shortcut can be offered.I do not believe any of these moralist pricks who say they would never work for free, they were just not offered the work. Is dropping meatbombs for free wrong ?
Is ferrying an aircraft for someone who is not profiting from it's movement wrong ?
Is working your first 100 hrs as an instructor for free wrong ?because some prick of a CFI or owner justify's the fact that you need to be under supervision for that period time so will not pay you.
At the end of the day we all just want to get ahead in an industry that can be pretty cutthroat.
If someone openly offers their services for free then hopefully they willl be ignored by the majority of operators.
I may not have been operating in GA for a few years but unless things have changed dramatically over the last few years I'm sure there are not that many people out there operating for free.
As far as our good mate slasher goes, I can't believe you are a skipper on a 737(God help VB) You are a criminal.If you tried that on me you wouldn't be boasting about it.
Good luck to all low hour job seekers and may all employers who take advantage of you financially get cancer and die!!

[enaires]

Well SLASHER, I think your response says it all...

And by the way my northern friend, I didnt mentioned that my pastures are very much greener these days. I was just pointing out a case of experience. Goodbye.

[Kaptin M]

Isn't it "funny", how we all like to "identify" with Stephen Segal, Charles Bronson, or Clint Eastwood when they kick ass, yet when our local hero - Slasher - decides to relay his real-life experience, he gets shot down because he doesn't fit the "professional pilot" image that a few Walter Mittys imagine to be the mould!
EVERY person has his/her limit, within which there is a perception of threat that will cause a "positive" response. Each of us is geared to different tolerances.

I couldn't quite fathom CFI's statement, "We don't do the "integrated" course, but upgrade PPLs who have been out and built their hours and experience on their own initiatives rather than having it all spoon fed to them."
What "initiatives" are there for PPL's to build their experience, other than outlaying their OWN $$$'s, CFI? Or are we using the AMWAY sell technique?

Let's face it, if a pilot is forced into flying commercial operations for free the operator will get what he deserves - a pilot who NEEDS to experiment with the equipment, and his own limitations.
Because he is not being paid, the pilot will not expect the owner/operator has placed any (great) value on the equipment:
Lightly gained is lightly valued!"
The aircraft owner/operator should EXPECT that the pilot who works for free will want to "experiment" with different characteristics of the aeroplane - after all he's not "costing" anything, but has a "right" to gain his payment via alternative means.

In reality, the pilot fraternity is probably GAINING more from the free fliers than they are losing, because it is these guys who cost the owner/operator MORE, than those who are employed as PROFESSIONALS, in MORE than just the monetary sense!

[Centaurus]

I can identify with how guilty those pilots must feel working for free. I was the same - well, almost. The RAAF trained me for free and when later I was having an unbelievable happy time throwing a Mustang around the sky for a lousy fifteen quid a week I felt so guilty that I almost volunteered to do it for free. But I resisted the temptation!:D

[spaceman]

Has anyone considered what the award wage is for a GA pilot?

http://www.osiris.gov.au:443/html/awards/1/AW792332/0/IA000330.htm

Now I'm not particularly well versed in how this all works, but I was at least under the impression that this was legally enforcable.... is there a different award out there that more applicable???

Am interested to hear everyones views

cheers,

spacey

[I Fly]

Spaceman you have brought up a good point. All of these free flyers, or indeed any underpaid flyers, can (and some do) go to the Industrial Relations Commision once they moved on to 'greener pastures'. They can get a nice little bonus that the former employer has not budgeted for. If more people did that, we might be left with employers that DO budget for pilots wages when they quote for flights.

[TwinNDB]

Since i've said my piece on people who work for free and I've now just read the last couple of pages i think it is only fair that we all start to give some advice to those who want it on how we got that first job even though companies have "insurance minimums".

I got my first job (which im still in) by working in the office for the first few months (also fully paid) and flying occassionally on some of our easier flights and smaller aircraft until the CP felt that I was ready to move onwards and upwards. I didnt meet the requirements to start off but believe that i had a good work ethic, worked hard and was good with our customers and therefore good for the company.

Like someone said earlier, the statement is usually something like "xxhours or at the discretion of the CP". Thus the reason i started on the smaller aircraft on easier routes until he felt that i had the experience needed to fly into some of our shorter strips that cop the worst weather.

So thats how i started. I guess i learnt to walk before running but i am slowly progressing through a company that looks after its employees and we all therefore do our best to look after the company.

All of our guys are paid for the work they do and we also get a STBY rate on the ground at the other end if we have to hang around for the charter (obviously doesnt apply to the full time guys). This is all built into the price that we quote and companies are generally happy to pay a bit more as we believe we deliver a better product. In the end the cost is not that much more but our clients then dont have to deal with a pilot who doesnt want to be there as he isnt getting paid a dime let alone for the time on the ground. So long as we dont bust our duty times we give the client our mobile number and if he/she needs to spend longer there, its no problem.

All i can say is that if you work for free you are ruining it for those out there who cant afford to and deserve to be paid for the work they do. There is work out there and getting the first job is probably the hardest thing you'll do (I dont know yet as i havn't looked for my second :D ) but it is out there. Hang around, try and find if your CFI has a friend anywhere that may need a casual pilot to start off. If you're not an idiot and your CFI can see that you will work hard he/she may indeed make some calls on your behalf and float your name around. They will NOT get you a job but may break the ice for you at a couple of companies.

Twin

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Kartin M by intitatives I meant having some ideas of thier own, rather than plodding through a pre-determined syllabus where they never go more than a couple of hours away from the comfort zone. IMHO part of the hour building should include loading up the swag and crossing the rabbit proof fence a few times, without an instructor holding their hand; eg a trip to Birdsville Races, the Outback Air Race, some trans-continent ferries, visiting rellies interstate or whatever. If they don't like that kind of flying then perhaps they are not suited for working in the bush. These hours would be more valuable than countless flights up and down the beach or two hour triangular navexs round the same old same old.

Maybe you thought I said "incentives" rather than intitatives. (Of course there are financial incentives for the loyal hour-builder as well). But nothing to do with Amway! Is that still around?!

[Rich-Fine-Green]

I Fly:

Good in theory, but quite a number of the 'freebies' or 'low-paid' guys and gals are silly enough to say, in writing, on their resume, that they will work for nix.

Some of these operators are smarter than the average bear and keep these resumes in staff files.

You wouldn't believe how many pilots do write in their resumes that they will work for free, or for experiance, or on trial etc, etc.

In the past I wouldn't employ them but of course some did and still do.

Pilot's who put this in writing have shot temselves in the foot with regard to the Industrial Relations. They can not come back later and cry foul ball to the umpire.

However, those who have a legitimate case and have genuinely been screwed - then I say go for it!.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

A good referance book for job hunting and researching good companies was;

Aircraft & Aerospace yearbook year XXXX.

It used to cost $29.95 at Newsagents. I bought a copy every year as a referance just in case. I'm not sure if it was published this year or last year. Does anyone know??

This was published every year and listed who's who and types operated, addresses, phone numbers etc etc.

I used it twice in the last decade (early) to get a job and it worked as I could target operators by name (rather than the old Dear Chief Pilot.....).

It also helped to save on postage, phone calls and gas, as I did not target flying schools that trained their own instructors (why would they want me if they train their own!) and I was able to target charter companies that operated aircraft I was endorsed on (less training costs and I.C.U.S. for them).

Anyway, for what it's worth - it worked for me when I was a sprog driver.

[marshall]

Thanks guy’s for all your posts, it has been a huge help.

What are the chances of doing an instructor rating and then being offered a job??? I heard that Port Macquarie offer and instructor rating for $6,500 and a CIR for $6,800. Does anyone know anything about these guys? How good is the training and is the course respected by operators around Australia?

Any ideas or JOBS??? ;) ;) ;)

[Ejector Pump]

Geez,

the way ANFO bit back at SLASHER 's post you'd just about believe he was the recipient of the N.T. style payback.


.....Was it you???

[ANFO]

Nah, Slash is still alive. If he hada touch my bike, itsa concreeta shoosa for him.....rememba, una size fits all, capish?:p :D

[Slasher]

Bwahahaha! Yeh but I bit back ANFO in his @rse after he recentley bit mine! Its alright mate I still like ya even though you think Im a lousey bloodey crim, bully, @rsehole, cop-corrupter, etc. :p

But I cant believe ANFO would stoop to cold-blooded murder by crueley drowning someone like that (even if his consigliere gave him the nod!)!! I think my testosterone-lacking mate enaires would be choking with New Age revulsion if he even READS that such force wouldve ever been considered! :eek:

[Jamair]

Slasher: Don't know you from a bar of soap sir, but your posts paint you as a fool.

All others: No-one should work for free, regardless of occupation - unless your work is worth nothing, in which case why would you want to?

Regards.

[Slasher]

I couldnt give a rats @rse what you think Jamair.

CFI your suggestion has merit but as KM implyed the $$$ factor is the stumbling block here, even with mates who are willing to chip-in for costs. And how many of them pike-out on the day of departure? And yeh Amways still around. I get the stuff in from Singapore since the home-grown Persil here doesnt cut too well.

[Islander Jock]

Questions of how to get hours aside. It looks like the 150hr integrated CPL course is not the yellow brick road it's made out to be.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record. Very few if any operators are going to be willing or able to give a start to someone with so few hours. Even a raw CPL under the modular system with 200hrs + will find it difficult. There are many aircraft owners who's insurance required minimums of 200hrs+ to hire something like a 210.

We had a student who not long ago attended a seminar held by one of the larger schools offering the 150hr course. The bullsh!t those spindoctors gave out was incredible. Things like "shortage of pilots", "big turnaround in GA" etc were just a few of the cons delivered to the impressionable with about 25k in their's or their parents bank account to kick off theri aviation career.

Marshall,

WRT the instructor rating. It could well be the way to go but as I have said before, don't do it as a vehicle to get your hours up to go off and fly 210s or Barons in charter. Your students will only suffer for having an instructor who is constantly dreaming of being somewhere else.

Don't spend your money yet on an IR yet. For the reasons I have mentioned above, you are probably some way off getting a job whereby it will be of any use. In addition you will have to incur the added expense of maintaining currency.


Slasher,

All very well using AMWAY soap powder. But be very concerned when you get home early from a trip away and the missus has left the OMO box on the laundry window ;)

[TIMMEEEE]

OK guys - I've heard alot of arguments here and we all know there are times such as ferrying an aircraft a couple hundred miles for positioning purposes that people dont get paid for.

The thing that myself and others such as Slasher are vehemently opposed to are those individuals that come to an established company with established work practices and then threaten that pilot groups' livelihood by offering to work for nicks!
Is there any form of human being lower???

How would you guys out there in aviation or any other industry feel if someone rocks up and offers to work for free and progressively lower your job worth to the extent that it's non-existant?

I'll tell you one thing - there would be blood spilled on the apron in every case!!
To not be opposed to this is tantamount to blatant lies.

Yeah - we all know there are cases where your employer pays you the award wage and when things are slow they may get you to paint an office, mow lawns or do SLJ's - (****ty little jobs) etc etc etc.
That's something we all lived with but at least you were being paid to be a profesisonal pilot and were when you performed flying duties to a good standard.

So a little bush justice was administered in this case by Slasher's mates some years back - big bloody deal.
The guy's just lucky he didn't cop a physical hiding and still carries the scars and mended limbs - that at least would serve notice to others willing to venture down this dangerous path.

Grow up some of you guys that seem to support this selfish behaviour of offering to work for free!

To those of you that have resisted the urge to do so,congratulations - you have done yourselves and all those in the industry a huge favour.

A letter of warning to those young guys out there that are willing to make such an offer - certain respectable organisations out there condemn this behaviour and you just may be talking yourselves out of a potential job.

Besides that having been a professional pilot for the past 18 years and having flown overseas and in Oz this industry is so incredibly small that if you develop a poor reputation such as being a "free flyer" so to speak this stigma will follow you for as long as you remain in aviation.

Good luck to all those jobseekers and let's hope this back-stabbing self righteous behaviour is some day erradicated like the disease it really is.

[TwinNDB]

Couldnt agree more with timeeee. We all realise that at the lower ends of the GA spectrum we may be asked to do some occassional office jobs etc but thats part of the territory. I have been lucky enought that even when working in the office etc I have been payed for the work i have done - as do all our guys but on the flipside the boss knows that we work hard for the company.

What gets me is when there are guys out there who come in looking to undermine a company that pays its workers and therefore their security by saying they'll work for free when i can honestly say that no one in our company got their start that way.

Basically it just gives me the $hits. If they're not going to do the industry a favour or atleast NOT undercut those who actually work in GA and not prostitute themselves, then they should f*ck off.

We're working hard to find out their names - not to hurt them but to give them a bit of a talking to as to how this is f*cking up our world. All they had to do was for ALL of them to tell their boss to shove it and then they would have been getting paid to do the same work!!!! Its not that hard to figure out - it only takes one little greedy $hit to undermine a whole company and the boss laughs all the way to the bank

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad: :mad: :mad:

[The Goss]

Suggest you get your facts right before inserting foot into mouth.

[enaires]

I'd say flying schools have a bit to account for in providing students with little or no REAL perspective on the aviation industry. Yes its a catch 22, but some blatant lying LURES seem to be spread around the place!

Slasher...ugh I not going to bother, you are a wind up, and if not...well maybe a loser? Get real mate. Your attitude stinks.

[Flintstone]

AV8 says "Name one instructor who has not worked for free....".

Me.

Sure, I had days where I only flew an hour or two and did other tasks but I was lucky enough to be paid a salary so it didn't matter how much I flew, briefed or whatever, I still got paid.

That was at Phoenix Air Training at Coolangatta before it was sold to MBA. It was then run by two true gentlemen, John Chesterfield and Peter Hay without whom I might not have got to where I am now. A lot of schools and GA operators could learn a lesson or two from these men. Their 'more carrot and less stick' approach encouraged all of us to go the extra yards

because we wanted to . It was a sad day when they sold the school.

As for discussing the idea of working for nothing with students, I always did. I made it quite clear what I and many other people thought of this. Whether or not it made a difference remains to be seen. I hope so.

So it's easy for me to throw stones because I've never been in the position where I've had to fly for free? Not really. I was offered 'free flying' many times but turned it down on principle. It wasn't easy but I know I can walk in to a crew room or on to a flight deck anywhere and look everyone else in the eye.

[Slasher]

enaires the reason I picked on YOU pal was your temerity to assume we didnt try talking to this little sh!t first. ( What did you expect me to say? "Duh....we didnt think of that enaires!"). You read my post, noted the language, instantley made your assumptions, then insulted my bloodey inteligence by assuming we didnt at least try talking to this d!ckhead first! Sorry but I dont take that lying down matey!

The fact your ball-less attitudes were also spruked as well as your contempt for us having trustworthy cops as good mates were just side-issues. I couldnt give a stuff about your false stereotyping of tech crew. But what I got p!ssed off with too was your judgement that professional drivers are supposed to lack the balls to protect what little they have back then, even if it required it to be done the NT way right up to white-anting his woman (which Ive subsequently admitted was over the top ok?). We HAD to hit hard in order to save what we had, and thank christ it paid off. Talking reasonabley to this little pr!ck did absolutley nothing. I only had 200 hours twin time and halfway through a CIR whos funding relyed heaviley on my present job, because I and my colegues werent born with silver spoons up our bums like this little sh!t was. And TIMMEE was right when he said the little bastard was luckey he didnt hobble away with a few broken limbs. A few of the more bolshie amongst us were itching to break out the cricket bats! But Im thankful I stood with them when it came to colectively making a tough stand, rather than your ilk who simpley "walk away in protest".

I can take criticism on the chin if Im wrong as equaly as I can rabidly dish it out pal. I know your just a set of pixels to me but your initial "criticism" was more a bloodey insult than anything real. Thats why I particularley bit you back hard!

Ok that feels better! Ill shut my bloodey trap on this if you will. Agreed? Good. Case closed. May you go in peace and find spiritual and sexual fulfilment.

[TIMMEEEE]

Slasher - it's quite amazing in life (and different groups of people in all walks of life for that matter) that if someone is being a "pratt" and unreasonable to a group of rational common-sense individuals that a good 'ol belting in a car park or somewhere private for that matter can achieve alot, as opposed to letters,memos and walking away in disgust as some of our other contributors suggest.

These sanctimonious types that preach a holier than thou attitude (about pilots not being allowed to fight no less!)are forgetting one important thing - pilots are human beings as well.

What we do for a living means zip!

What we do however in terms of our actions speaks for itself.

These types have obviously never had their livelihoods threatened by an unreasonable individual that will not listen to reason.
To offer to work for free is a direct insult to those that do and shows not only disdain for other pilots but also shows what little self respect they have for themselves, let alone others.

Belt the crap out of the little bastards I say - it'll knock some bloody sense into them.

[ANFO]

Ah, Slash, yer a charming rouge!;), but I dont agree that one should break the law and damage property. There are other ways and means; ya just gotta be creative. I've got ideas that I wouldn't spell out in this forum; nuthin' too sinister tho'. You are right, I am a softy when it comes to the C/C shoes;I always think of their poor Mother:D . (Actually, I think that even Slasher has a Mother ,.. maybe). However, there is a couple of members of the New Zealand cabinet that I would like to take out on me boat some day, so as I can "sea" them off.:D

[enaires]

Timmee, I hope you are not interpreting my criticisms to slasher's responses as myself being and advocate of the work for free party...because Im not. I have been bitten and my livelihood HAS been threatened more times than I care to recall, and trying not to be self-righteous, violence has never solved MY problems.

Slash, it was not meant as an "insult" to your intelligence; my original idea was to criticise the decision to revert to violence (under the banner of the "NT local justice system" or whatever other EXCUSE) to "teach" a spoon fed brat that was offering his/her work for free in a situation that hurts all other pilots. Sure, Ive barked at YOU, but is that not the same as what was coming your end? Honestly, I very much like a good discussion.

Im quite happy to give it rest, but I'll NEVER agree to the alleged violence perpetrated in that situation. Call me new age (bit old for it) or whatever, but I've yet to see a punch on the face have the same effect as talking and re-talking...not saying you didnt try communicating, cause I dont know the facts. Make it a blooddey good discussion of words, place your facts and your reasonings on an equal table, I'm in on that "fight", because I too see the problem being argued in this forum's topic. But a group of guys against one or two....naah.

Enough.

[Ang737]

Not naming names but I have spoken to someone who said they are happy to work for free to bridge that gap between 250 - 500 TT to meet some operators minimums. I know this may have been done to death but why on earth would someone intentionally work for free after paying an exuberant amount for their training and also stuff it up for the next guy to come along after they leave.

Lets keep serious about this issue. It seems to be popping up at an alarming rate. What other industry does that Answer None...

[Torres]

I would assume the person you were talking to logically finds it cheaper to work for free, than to hire an aircraft by the hour, for 250 hours, to bridge the gap.

Each to their own. I don't condone the practice, but for many it may be their only perceived option.

You're right. The subject has been done to death.

[prospector]

Ang 737

After having to pay an exuberant? fee, one would imagine flying for nothing would not be a problem at all.

Prospector

[Ang737]

Prospector you miss the point. Thats the whole reason why one shouldn't work for free... Why would you pay upwards of 50K to get a licence and get no immediate return... Madness

[Torres]

I don't believe Prospector was endorsing or condoning the practice of working for free. Neither was I. To the contrary, I am appalled that any operator would take advantage of a new pilot (not to mention transgressing State and Federal IR laws), by imposing a work for free condition. (Thus I may add, also avoiding Superannuation and Worker's Compensation liabilities, both of which are wage based.)

I can understand your mate considering working for free if he/she sees that as their only alternative to a career - especially "after paying an exuberant amount for their training..."

Despite the lack of a question mark, I believe your primary question was:

"....why on earth would someone intentionally work for free."

The replies from Prospector and I both addressed that question.

Your only other question appears to be:

"What other industry does that Answer None..."

To the contrary, it is far more prevalent in many industries than you may think, but is variously disguised as "familiarisation", "work experience", "probation" and a myriad of other terms. Ask any IR Inspector. Even the main stream airline industry is not imune; ask any of 16,000 ex Ansett employees who probably worked for significant periods of time with rapidly diminishing chances of ever seeing even the smallest dividend on their labours.

Now, who missed the point?

[nike]

torres - with you right up till the Ansett comment - not sure how that fits with the topic??

If you need to start up another... "Ex-Ansett and upset"... thread.


The question for the individuals who believe in working for free is - at what point does one ask to be paid?

Surely this day must come. But for those who decide to work for free how does one transition from the amateur to the professional occur??

Do they wake up one morning and say "...I'm pretty good at this, I think I'll turn pro!!"

[borg]

People who work for free are scum. No excuses unless your doing the odd jolly for a charity.

[prospector]

Do agree working for nothing is not to be encouraged.
My point was use of the word EXUBERANT, surely the word you were looking for is EXORBITANT?????

Prospector

[manamana]

Working for free probably crossed all our minds at some point in time. I think the question could be "How can we prevent companies etc 'hiring' people, and not paying them." Rather than why would someone work for free. I dunno so much about the IR, but is there a way to stop this at the hirer end?
:confused:

[Torres]

manamana. Spot on! :ok:

The problem is not the little guy who, having invested $40,000 plus in a brand new license, sees there is no other way to start his career other than working for free.

The problem is those operators who capitalise on the situation by expecting newbie pilots to work for free.

When do I think is the day from which I should be paid? The day I start work. But I am not prepared to criticise those who feel they have no other option.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Perhaps what i'm about to say may sound harsh, i am a pilot thats paid my own way and lived on GA wages just like most here.

Personally i'd never employ a pilot that had worked for free, if all employers had this attitude it would send a clear message to those willing to undermine the rest of us.

As an employer it is hard enough making a company viable with out some operator down the airport being able to beat your rates by $30-50 per hour because his pilots do not draw a wage, to hell with that !.

Hours are a lot less important than having the right work ethic.

[one dollar short]

Not saying that i condone it either but if you or me dont do it there will always be someone else to do it.

Do you think this is better or worse than paying for command/ICUS ???

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

One Dollar,

my logic is that if the "next pilot" knows he will be reducing his\her further career prospects perhaps they'll think twice before flying for free. excepting of course air cadets \ scouts.

[Onan the Clumsy]

What other industry does that ? I saw an article once that likened Flying to Show Business as where else would people work for free, pay to get an interview, have stars in their eyes about earning millions of dollars doing an exotic job etc etc. I thought it made quite a valid point.

Borg - your comments are a little harsh I think. For lots of people it IS the only route, though I agree it shouldn't be. As has been said earlier, compared to paying for training it's a much better deal and perhaps that's where the answer lies, in considering it as such.

Now a confession. I'm hauling freight - for free - BUT, I get to do it part time as and when I want, I think it's good experience (Cessna 402) and I started by doing an SIC time building so compared to what I paid for that, the work for free seems like not such a bad deal really. There'll come a day though as it must for everyone who does this where I'll say "Enough" it's time to get some dough for this.

And here's a thought I've wanted to post for a while and never dared. How ridiculous is it for someone to get $250,000 a year working two weeks a month flying big iron across the ocean? I don't begrudge them though as they're only making up for all the time they flew freight for free. What we really need is a fairer, flatter system so that you don't have to work for nothing/crumbs after investing a small house in your career, say start at $40,000 and bump it up to $100,000.

There, I've said it. I'll probably get banned now.

[grrowler]

For lots of people it IS the only route

Why? I've never worked for free, and I know there are many, many others who haven't either.

It's only because its the route (or should that be root) that they choose to take. There are jobs out there for bare CPL's that do pay, and I've found it's generally those who think they can get an easy ride to the "top" of aviation who go for the fly for free, or worse (I think) pay to fly scams.

It's that kind of sh*t that has contributed to the very ordinary state of today's industry.

[404 Titan]

Onan the Clumsy

And here's a thought I've wanted to post for a while and never dared. How ridiculous is it for someone to get $250,000 a year working two weeks a month flying big iron across the ocean? I don't begrudge them though as they're only making up for all the time they flew freight for free. What we really need is a fairer, flatter system so that you don't have to work for nothing/crumbs after investing a small house in your career, say start at $40,000 and bump it up to $100,000.

What a load of BS. Just for your information in those two weeks the airline pretty much burns out the hours I am legally allowed to fly. I am always up near the maximum hours that I can fly in one year. Just because I don't do a million sectors doen't mean longhaul is not much work. I suggest that in future if you don't know what you are talking about keep your mouth shut.
:mad: :yuk:

[ferris]

404Titan
Why so viscious? I thought Onan made an interesting suggestion.
Why couldn't the structure be flatter? The way pay & conditions are going, $100g will be the top capt's pay soon, anyway.
Would be interesting to see the result if the lure of big money was reduced.
At what point do you stop flying because you love it, and start flying for the money?

[404 Titan]

ferris

So you say we should make the system flatter. How flat do you want to make it? If you are driving 400 ton B747 with 390 lives on board you have a hell of a lot more responsibility than a person who drives around a 3.2 ton C402 or a 3.8 ton C404 with 8-10 lives on board. We are paid for the responsibility that goes with the job. Just like you are paid well or should be paid well for being an ATCO. If we were paid for the number of lives we have on board or the weight of the aircraft, we would be paid over a million dollars a year. This would not be sustainable thought but $250000.00 a year for a B747 skipper or similar in my view is very reasonable. Have a look at the pay packets of other professionals. You will find that airline pilots by comparison aren’t even in the running.

:*

[ferris]

404Titan
I didn't say we should make the system flatter. Just interested to hear peoples thoughts on the matter. I am not saying you don't deserve X dollars for flying a 74, in fact your argument about relative responsibilty compared to other professionals is a good one (but that could also be used against you).
I think Onan was talking about flattening the structure . I know that ATC has a much flatter structure than piloting. Is that a good thing? I'd say, yes. You asked me How flat do you want to make it? Maybe by taking $40g off the $250g top salary you are talking about, and spreading that out at the bottom. I realise that is a simplistic idea, but I count myself among those who went as far as CPL but couldn't stomach the idea of working for nothing in woop-woop along the road to the holy grail of a decent job. So, I hear Onan. Clearly, the idea of chopping the pay of those on the big bucks (such as yourself) will be unpopular among the fraternity, but in the long run may actually improve the pilot's lot. There are endless bleatings on these fora about DJ etc undercutting T&C, with a queue a mile long waiting to pay for their rating. This in turn puts pressure on the QF T&C. Maybe if the conditions in GA weren't so bad, the queue wouldn't be so long? At the moment, becoming a working pilot is an all or nothing gamble. Just hoping that maybe someone has a better idea.
That needn't mean ruining it for those already at the top, either. That seems to be happening without any other gain, already.:rolleyes:

[prospector]

404 Titan
If you have been in the system as long as you would have us believe, then you would know that the Air Line Pilots Award basically assesses salary in the size of the aircraft flown.
Going back quite a few years when the DC3 was king, agricultural pilots could earn as much as an airline skipper. Who put the multi millions of dollars into developing the aircraft of today?? the pilots?? Would you have us believe that flying a jumbo is that much more difficult than the DC3 with all the attendant nav aids of the time? the pilots still sit at the sharpend, if they stuff up they are first at the scene of the accident. Are you saying you put more effort into flying the aircraft because there are more passengers behind you?? Who gets millions of dollars spent on ATC services to ensure you dont fly into each other??? Your unions did very well for you, but like many enterprises in the modern day world many have priced themselves off the market. I would have thought that the present Airline scene would have shown that fact quite adequately. Its tough, but then so sometimes is life.

Prospector

[Kaptin M]

Would you have us believe that flying a jumbo is that much more difficult than the DC3 with all the attendant nav aids of the time?
From the physical manipulative skills required point of view...probably not. However the training required for the technology integrated into today's airliners is far more than that which was required to learn how to use ADF's, VAR's, and VOR's, and manually adjusting the compass for precession.
As a matter of fact, pilots are STILL required to pass examinations incorporating pressure pattern flying, have a working knowledge of Mercator projections, and all the other stuff that is NEVER used today, in addition to the new navigation systems, and how to recognise and correct the many and various failures of the automatics.
The chances of a pilot getting into the lhs of a jumbo today, are considerably less than those of a pilot, in the days "when the DC3 was king".

Your unions did very well for you,
And that is one of the reasons WHY airline pilots were so well remunerated - because they had SOLIDARITY. Of course, all being employed by a few companies made it easier to stick together (hence the trend today of the larger airlines to start new "low cost"...read low salary....subsidiaries. It breaks up the pilot group AND creates more management positions!).
The other reason being airlines could AFFORD to pay their pilots more, because of the volume of turnover.
Look at the number of (unnecessary) ground staff per aircraft, that most airlines employ, compared with G.A. companies.

Making the system "flatter" is going to be achieved by either uniting the majority of G.A. pilots under one award through union membership, and/or bringing the salary of airline pilots down.
The companies are working hard enough to do that, without pilots assisting!

To believe that somehow airlines are going to REDUCE their crews salaries and then subsidise G.A. companies to pay their pilots MORE, is pie in the sky stuff.
Why would airlines WANT to do that?
To make pilots feel better??
Any money saved goes towards the bonuses of upper management, or to pay salaries of management of newly created "low-cost" airlines.

If you hope to "flatten" salaries, the ONLY way imo, is through a strong pilots' union - in Australia's case, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP...the Federation).

[OpsNormal]

Nicely written Prospector. Agree with your points also.

I'm still coming to terms with the intimation put forward by 404T that for me to go and fly my companies 402/ Chieftain with eight or so souls aboard, my job is only worth $5128.20 per annum by his/her reckoning? I guess a number of GA operators would just love to hear you say that.

Intriguing analogy 404, let's run with that and disect it a little....

A few points for your consideration.... and I'll stress I'm not having a go at you, or indeed the heights of your career that you have attained, for one day myself I'd very much like to be in your shoes, but I ask you to perhaps explain why you feel my job is worth so little....

Pray tell, 404T, just what is the difference between the worth of 8 lives versus 3-400? Just what is a life worth? Ten bucks? A hundred? Ten thousand bucks? Well you must have some idea, you put it forward? My responsibility to those people who have put their lives in my hands is no different to yours.

My job keeps me down here in the nastiest (most active part of the atmosphere), bit of air to fly in, yours quite rightly takes you quite a way above. Granted, you have many other factors and possible outcomes of problems relating to higher altitude flying, and some of those would be are quite a large danger to the lives you have on board under your care. What my questions are here, is necessarily why would your job at altitude be more difficult than mine down here? Terrain is only a factor for the most part in the take-off and landing phase of your operations, while mine is a reasonably constant consideration.

We both use auto pilots, but mine can't land the damned thing for me.

You've got more than just yourself sitting in the cockpit there with you, so if a decision has to made at least you've got some form of other input to fix/find the problem. Me, I've just got me to rely upon and I'm just a human who makes his fair share of mistakes. Granted, you fly a much more complex machine than I do.

If one, and if you're in a 74', then you've still got three spare, of your propulsion units goes quiet then you still have a degree of guaranteed performance. I'm dreading the day that something may grenade on one of my wings, and with GA's prolific use of a much more flammable fuel than Jet A1/Avtur, then my risk of fire is something that I guess I'll have to try and manage in the mean time, and control the panic on board if something untoward happens in flight along those lines.

Even our regulator seems to have taken the view that my operation must provide the same level of passenger safety to what yours does. The fact that my passengers don't pay an airfare, they actually hire the whole aircraft/pilot/fuel combination makes no difference to CASA. The focus is on safety, and I'll add that my company has just as stringent a flight testing/checking policy as most airlines. I too, can lose my job if I fail a couple of times.

I guess what I'm getting at is why is your job more "responsible" than mine (and the other guys flying all around the country), in weather conditions and situations that are certainly more physically and mentally demanding, all by themselves?

As I said, 404, I'm not chucking rocks, just discussing the issues. It isn't my intention to get into a bunfight with anybody about it.

Have a good one,

OpsN. :)

[Sheep Guts]

All comes down to Supply and Demand. Aviation there has allways been an oversupply of Pilots especially abinitio ones.
like other industries, people ten d to accept lower standards and pay to get there experience past certain margins, to get better employment in that particular field

I worked for a Parachute Mob for around 150 Hours at 10 dollars a load thats the cheapest I ve worked for.

Now it also depends in what part of the world you in. Here in the Carib Pilots do Right seat time, to get experience for Left seat. They do this for free. Sometimes for umpteen months, with no end in sight. Alot different from Australia, but that much.


Its tough out there to get a break, and sometimes, dare I say its necessary

Regards
sheep

p.s. I thought Id never say that but, after being out of oz seeing other places, thats my new stand on this matter :)

[borg]

O T C,

I am afraid I don't believe my comments are to harsh !!

It may be easy for the single guys and gals to parade around offering to work for nothing, but spare a thought for the many who are married, are parents or have been flying in GA for 20-30 years who choose to stay there.

One of my first jobs in this industry was lost after one of these scumbags offered to do my run for nothing !! My wife was 5 months pregnant with our first child at the time. He had no regard for my family or myself, he just wanted the hours and was prepared to do anything to get them.

These people are the sort who would sell a lifejacket to a drowning man. They are vermin.

But as the point was made earlier my boss was equally at fault for accepting his pathetic offer.

Just for the record most of the pilots I have met over the years haven't had to work for nothing. It always amazes me though, that the ones who scream and complain the most in my company when the new EBA comes out are the ones who flew for nothing.

Doesn't it make you laugh !!

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

747 captains sacrificing wages so a 200 hours pilot gets a salary commensurate to his expectations, what a feed of crap.

you should slap yourself.

[404 Titan]

OpsNormal

You have misinterpreted what I was trying to say. The intent of my post was never to devalue your job or any G.A. driver. It was the complete opposite. Have a look at my handle and it is quite clear where my roots lie. I too did it hard in G.A. I did my time in the bush, PNG and FNQ. I have worked for some employers that I wouldn’t spit on if I came across them in the street and I have also worked for some great companies. My point was that trying to flatten the salary structure between G.A. and the airlines is pie in the sky stuff. It is purely supply and demand. Maybe when you get yourself into my position you will understand where I am coming from. By the way, the responsibility that goes with this job could be argued in the context that if I stuffed up, how much the insurance companies would have to pay out to the families of the victims and how much my employer would be sued.

:rolleyes:

[Winstun]

but spare a thought for the many who are married, are parents or have been flying in GA for 20-30 years who choose to stay there. :ooh: Give me a friggin bone. He had no regard for my family or myself, he just wanted the hours and was prepared to do anything to get them. :{ I'm gonna friggin cry... Doesn't it make you laugh !! Yeah...like the laughing of the 11 million children that die of malnutrition and disease every year..:rolleyes: and I'm sure you really care:hmm: 404 finally got something right. It is supply and demand and what the market accepts, period. Unions are only collective self interest. Any pilot that wants to make it should utilize whatever assets they have, and do whatever it takes. Frankly I find some of these prentend socialist types rather nauseating.....and boring. On the one hand they say not work for free, and the other they work for peanuts (in my book). Life is all about self interest and looking out for number 1. Anybody that prentends otherwise is a liar. Its not hard to pole a 747, Polar pilots are in the LHS after 1-2 years on first and only jet type. Pax market demands some more experience for insurance and bad publicity position if screw up occurs with 'lower' timer (mass media ignorance). You mainly get paid on whether you will make the front page and how bad its gonna look / company can bear from market and its mostly the type of load not the amount, why US F500 corporate is good coin and middle eastern hajj charter is not.

[Kaptin M]

Aha, my old old friend, wise Winstun. I do agree with one of your quips - "Unions are only collective self interest." - and as one who espouses that " Life is all about self interest and looking out for number 1.", I assume that YOU would agree the best way for each and every one of us to COLLECTIVELY further promote ourselves would be to join a union. :ok:

However you show yourself (once again, Winnie) to be something of an enigma :eek: when you state on the one hand Any pilot that wants to make it should utilize whatever assets they have, and do whatever it takes. but then counter that withOn the one hand they say not work for free, and the other they work for peanuts (in my book).
Make your mind up, Winstun..."utilize whatever assets they have".....but then demand a high salary!!??

If I may draw an analogy or two, as to why some pilots are paid more than others.
Looking to buy a used car, there are thousands on the market - as a matter of fact, you probably could pick one up for nothing, but then you know what you can expect when you get it for FREE, and its reliability probability.
As another example, you decide to eat out...now the chance of getting a free meal is pretty remote, but at the lower end of the food chain there is always McDonalds.

Some operators would probably love to pay their employees more, IF they had the revenue to allow them to do so - which airlines DO have.
I worked for a G.A. operator - Hazeltons - who successfully ran a business of more than 23 aircraft with a management and combined office staff of no more than 10 people for over 35 years, but now work for an airline with only 9 aircraft and an office staff of 3 times that number, because the revenue supports them.
Wasteful? Yes. But then again, this is a "low cost" airline, where the plethora of "management" are continually trying to further reduce other staffs conditions to support their (unnecessary) employment.

[Winstun]

Assume wrong Kaptin. Got your blinkers on again I see. :rolleyes:
Yes, I say do whatever it takes, whether that mean getting a mama and working for free, working peanuts, etc.. to get experience, ratings. Unions are for pussies and kind of NOT relevant in Australia these days. :hmm: Reason I am at the top and get the big bucks is cause I have struggled, I have moved up, I get to know the right people, the right people like me, and I know how to sell myself. I don't demand a high salary, I get given it cause thats the price today between said buyer and said seller. I have been in the gutter many times in life and it is character building and good for you. Kind of fun too....;) Fortune 500 CEOs pay top dollar and don't want no union wus up front goin into Cali on dark stormy night. Kaptin, your anologies are ridiculous:ooh: Snap out of it and stop trying to hold back the ambitious. :ok:

[TurboOtter]

I have never and will never work for free!!

Any person that has worked for free should be black listed for future jobs.

Low income is allright to gain your experience but NEVER NEVER for free.

I have meet a couple of pilots that do and have worked for free and I found them to be the most unreliable back stabbing bunch out there, I am sure that doens't apply to all but that's my experience.

I almost had a job Bank running but the boss admitted he would love to hire me but the unwritten company policy was to pay nothing for a while then you get a small pay packet, in fact people paided the company for to be able to fly co-joe!

:confused:

So if they can get a pilot with no time to pay the company 10-20 bucks an hour to be balast in the aircraft then why would they hire me.

He did agree that if you pay with bananas you get monkeys.
So to all you operators out there not paying, or paying below what the dole would pay, pull your head in and get with the program.
If you don't pay the pilot you get some dimwit that wrecks your machine, is only interested in furthering his/her carreer with no interest in helping the company, will leave at the slightest sniff of another job, and would be the most likely person to give CASA a call when he left to stick in your ribs for treating you like ****.

This problem needs to be resolved by CASA and the Government, sure we can do trainee ships, where you get paid stuff all, but at the end of the term the comany must be obligated to pay and pay big time.


Just my two cents, I am sure I steps on a few toes out there, but hey tht's what forums are all about!!
;)

[Torres]

We’ve come a long way in a page and a half in PPRuNe – and as usual, mostly lost the original plot!

From…………
Ang 737: ….happy to work for free….:{

To……………
404 Titan: ….$250,000.00 a year for a B747 skipper…:bored:

We’ve had the odd ancient history and political lesson….
Kaptin M: …is through a strong pilots' union…:mad:

And the odd economics lesson……
Winstun: ….why US F500 corporate is good coin…..:*

With only two factual statements:

404 Titan: “It is purely supply and demand”. Never a truer word was spoke!:ok:

And:
Winstun: I have been in the gutter many times in life….:yuk:

Me too mate, but I’ve always been able to at least crawl home! And I don’t brag about it!:eek:

:8

[plear crop]

As Torres said, funny how the original question has been overlooked and we've become sidetracked.... Nothing unusual I guess.

Back to the original post. To each his/her own, let's look at it from both sides.

1. New CPL- sits at home, drives taxis, works at McDonalds etc and sends out 100 resumes to each and every operator. Has to spend money to stay current hoping that Mr GA will call one day.

2. New CPL- becomes proactive and offers to do occasional aircraft ferrying, local scenics etc and may not get paid. He/she too is sending resumes, but importantly gains experience outside that gained from flying training (which falls short of the mark required in the big bad world)

The Pilot described in point 2 is proactive, dedicated and has perserverance. They both spent 40K plus to get their basic CPL, but rather than be self righteous and too high and mighty, pilot number 2 is making something for themselves.

As an operator, I would rather hire Pilot number 2 any day. Pilot 1 tends to become bitter as they have spent money and expects the red carpet treatment and to a certain extend think that the sun shines out of their a#se.

I don't condone operators who take advantage of this, I for one don't. What does make a difference is when i recieve resumes, I look carefully at what the person did after they got their CPL.

Fancy degrees and colourful 20 page resumes don't say much for a person. As someone said in a previous post, it is the work ethic and loyalty which are the qualities I look for.

[404 Titan]

Some may think working for nothing will give them that foot in the door they need. It may in the short term. Others including myself think that in the long run it has the potential of being more of a hindrance than anything else. There are many companies out there that frown on people and companies that participate in this type of practice. There are two main reasons why they do:

1. Reputable companies realize that for most people that work in the aviation industry it is a career not a hobby. As such they need to earn an income to support themselves and their families. If someone is going to offer their services for free this just erodes the conditions for everyone in the industry.

2. Reputable companies realize they often can’t compete with companies that have employees working for nothing or worse paying to gain hours. They miss out on contracts and jobs, which in turn threatens their very survival.

In my previous job as Chief Pilot of a charter company I use to ask aspiring new pilots how they got their first piloting job and if they had ever worked for nothing. If they had they were shown the door. At my own interview with my current employer (CX) I was asked the same question. I have since become good friends with one of the guys that interviewed me and I asked him why that question. His reply was that he (not the company) doesn’t like people that work for nothing. It was his view and many on the interview panel that one should be paid fairly for a fair days work. Remember that those that conduct the interviews are mostly line pilots, not management, and as such may be very opinionated about pilots that work for nothing and those companies that exploit them.
:rolleyes:

[Ang737]

Torres are you suggesting that I am happy to work for? If you read back I was the one to start this thread because of the increasing amount of scabs in this industry.

I totally agree that the low lifes of the industry that will eventually come undone should be black listed. I also think that the operators that employ them should be black listed.

Wasn't this one of the reasons the crash happened at Lake Evalla last year. I believe that one of the reasons the accident happened was that the pilots were not entering issues in the MR as this would have grounded their aircraft and they wouldnt be paid. Lets get fair dinkum this is a safety issue...

Ang ;)

[Kaptin M]

O.K. guys (and ladies) - IF you agree to fly for free, WHEN will it stop?
After you get 1,000 hours command on a B744?

Winstun, you're a [email protected] then I didn't need to tell you that!!
And btw, I get my home accomodation and transport to/from work PLUS a BIG salary as a fully paid up union pussy....while you sit around on a 24-7 callout basis with NO free time, for a LOT less!

But then that's probably because you can qualify for only (a miserable) 5 ATP's........and as an f/o at that!! Oh yes, someone has spilled the beans about you, Winsie. :{

[Wing Root]

plear crop,

I find it hard to understand your logic. Let me give you my impression of the two pilots you have just described.

Pilot number one has probably just spent upward of $40k and realises that the only way he is going to make some money to pay for the necessities in life while he looks around for the GOOD operator that will pay him what he is worth (WHICH ISN'T $0) decides to go out and do some hard yards in the Taxi or McDonalds, Night Fill etc. to get some money together to go off and hunt for that first flying job. He has made a commitment not to be screwed by employers that are more than happy to take advantage of him.

While Pilot number two somehow has no need for money - probably he's just living off credit. He walks up to an operator with the offer of working for nothing - the operator sees a way to lower his costs and hey presto pilot 2 has taken the easy way out while at the same time ripping a possible paid job from under a pilot that deserves it more. :suspect:

"it is the work ethic and loyalty which are the qualities I look for."

How many "ethics" with regard to work does someone has who works for free? And LOYALTY???????

[Kaptin M]

Simply put, working for ZILCH is a cop out........it's the EASY way out!!
It's easy to undercut your competiton when you feel that you can't compete with them on an EQUAL basis, by offering to work for FREE!!

You have now put a realistic price on YOUR OWN true worth! ZILCH......ZERO.............NADA.
Can anyone have any lower self-esteem??!!!
...What do YOU think you are worth?? -----NOTHING!!

Ahh, Winstun..yes son, well we REALLY like YOU...and NOW'S the chance for YOU to fly for US - this'll pay BIG dividends years from now :rolleyes: ...'cause you'll be able to say that YOU flew for FORTUNE 500 execs for peanuts, to get to where you are (crawling around the gutter!!).
Winnie - ol' chum - airlines don't give a rat's (arse) about WHOM you flew aound, only WHAT (aircraft type, and for how many hours!!). I flew exec charter for a while, but quite frankly it cut too much into my social life, for too little reward - "too little reward" being a comparative thing, as my final target was airlines, and not a notch on a sapling that really meant nothing in the forest of aviation, which is where you are at right now. :{

"Dark, stormy nights into Cali"...a piece of p!ss, and hardly worth mentioning in the overall worldwide scheme of aviation in most cases - unless YOU found it particularly testing, Winnie, which you most OBVIOUSLY did!! :(
Hang in there son - if only just!

[Winstun]

Kaptin as normal, you are desperately clutching at the shadows.....:ooh: Your ridiculous assumptions are amusement to the viewers.........however you are an embarassment to the industry. Your dellusion that corporate is a 24-7 on call deal is not uncommon but not correct. Exec charter is the dregs of corporate (for people that have low hours or dont cut the big time). Kind of similar to geting some airline hajj time. I know a lot of airline pilots and very few would have as good coin, schedule, and free time as my bizjet buddies. In fact, many airline pilots aspire to get onto a F500 piece, but mostly don't cut the mustard cause they got their head up ass and can't think quick enough in 'rocketships' goin into unfamiliar ports. Unless they had previous bizjet time, then they know the deal.If you don't pay the pilot you get some dimwit that wrecks your machine, is only interested in furthering his/her carreer with no interest in helping the company, will leave at the slightest sniff of another job, and would be the most likely person to give CASA a call when he left to stick in your ribs for treating you like ****. So you are saying after all these years, operators comin back over and over to get machines wrecked, disinterested pilots, and CASA squealers......:hmm: Kaptin, your BIG salary I would likely consider peanuts, it's all relative. Now, I don't whine about people like you lowering the standards. Plus I don't think you are really qualified to be giving employment advice after your historical bo-bo :rolleyes: And look where it got you...mundane driving living overpopulated concrete jungle, while I fly the latest and live it up in top class resort style, never on call. :p Get tired of this 'ethics' drivel being pushed onto aspiring aviators. Many that espout such, have rich dada and in no hurry to get job and hours with future trust account accumulating interest. Others are already in cushy job or envious of seeing people move up a lot faster than they did...."cause I did it tough, you gotta too...:zzz: WR, your stories are cute but you don't get what you deserve in life. (please ask the 30,000 kids that die daily). where are your ethics? "Dark, stormy nights into Cali"...a piece of p!ss, and hardly worth mentioning Agreed. But maybe you would like to mention that to relatives of dead pax killed by airline pilots discussing union issues on descent into mountain - instead of monitoring radio nav aids and situational awareness. And there was no weather.

[Boney]

Umm, intersting points.

When are KaptainM and Winstun going to have a live debate about ..... everything on the net. Would make great viewing!

Winstun, the unions are the only thing that has protected what little there is left of the conditions of drivers. The downturn in union strength in this country and the world over combined with supply and demand factors recently is why the profession is now, paywise, more like a trade. Our union fore fathers would turn in their graves.

I admit, the action of unions everywhere, often leaves a lot to be desired, but hey, it is all we have got.

And no, I am not a member, being a casual GA driver at the bottom of the heap, there is not much point.

As far as introducing a flatter pay system between Airline/GA-never going to happen!

I remember being in a pub one time with a good mate who is also a driver. We were chatting up a couple of lovelies and they asked what we do for a crust.

My mate said, "I am unemployed".

She asked, "What do you do all day then?"

He replied, "OH, I have a full time hobby that makes me almost enough money to live on".

Time to forget about the hobby and get a real job, me thinks??

Boney

[Torres]

Ang, I was not suggesting you condone working for free. I was simply adding a little humour by extracting from posts, out of context, to demonstrate how threads wander way off line.:}

My opinion is posted early in the thread. I don't criticise the newbie CPL holder considering, in frustration after many job knock backs, working for free.

But I consider it appalling that any operator would take advantage of a newbie CPL by expecting they (or any employee) should work for free, or amongst remote area operators, expect "freebie" pilots to live in run down caravans or even one case I know, in the back of a utility.

I could understand it if that operator maybe pocketed his ill gotten bonus (or bought the troops a carton of p!ss on Fridays), but what always happens is that unscrupulous operator cuts his prices to below economically viable rates and forces the legitimate operator down the road, out of business.

Seen that scenario far, far too often! And if I could name operators with impunity to PPRuNe I would.

And if a few operators, past and present in the Torres Strait and Cape York (and elsewhere) feel uncomfortable at my words, I don't believe you deserve the right to employ hard working Australians.

[borg]

Winstun you are a impostor, grow up.

[Torres]

From another thread:

Lead Balloon
Still just another number

Click here to order your Personal Title

posted 24th June 2003 19:26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Winstun is Creampuff
Winstun is Creampuff's alter-ego.

I mean Creampuff hasn't posted since Winstun turned up....

And I happen to know that a "Winstun" is an old Celtic word for Profiterole.


Interesting theory. Interesting indeed.......... Similar ego, similar intelligence. And by my calculations, there is a strong chance that Creamie has actually met a real astronaught! :ok:

But we are wandering off the thread again........

[Creampuff]

Now I’m confused. I thought I was Lead Balloon.

Throw me a friggin’ bone here.

Or should I say: get a life.

What’s an “astronaught” Torres? If it means a student pilot who’s been trained not to touch the controls of a space shuttle, then I have indeed met a number.

And where on earth are you at the moment Lead?

[Lead Balloon]

I'm, in sunny Boxborough Massachusettes at the moment Creampuff. Just up the road, a way, from SLC Utah, I'll drop in on my way back to Oz next week.

BTW - beach house purchased - beers on me.

And Torres... everyone knows that Creampuff/Winstun would never give up his/her true identity as Lead Balloon/LeadSled

Tottle Pip!

[Winstun]

the unions are the only thing that has protected what little there is left of the conditions of drivers Actually pilot unions are irrelevant in Australia today, thanks to Kaptin and his mates....Our union fore fathers would turn in their graves. Actually I would guess most would have been, or still are alive and witnessed our good friends above screw it up for future generations...:hmm: expect "freebie" pilots to live in run down caravans or even one case I know, in the back of a utility. :rolleyes: Big deal, its character building... but what always happens is that unscrupulous operator cuts his prices to below economically viable rates and forces the legitimate operator down the road, out of business. :zzz: Its called capitalism , like it or leave it. We all know the sob stories and hardships that many pilots have to go through to get work and we have all been there and done that. :{ I'm gonna friggin cry...:p Working for free is not a hardship that you have to endure to climb the ladder :oh: No, not something you have to endure. But it might be something you want to do as an invesment in your future earnings. Just like most of you would jump at a shiny bizjet seat start on low coin. Or self typing on 737 for Virgin seat. To me, that is doing it for "free"...but I don't whine bout it...:rolleyes: People need to make a living from doing work Clearly some people can make a living doing it, even free. respect and recognition and just need to make a decent living. :ooh: Friigin serious? In the wrong business....:rolleyes: Unless you one of the accomplished few that make big time like me. :ok:

[404 Titan]

You know Winnie the Poo you would have to be the biggest windup merchant I have ever come across. A1 professional in my opinion. No one even comes close. :ok: :p

[Torres]

"Unless you one of the accomplished few that make big time f:mad:wits like me."


Sheesh! Winstun Many Dicks, you're an egotistical, serial w@nker! No one could be that stupid w@nking just one. Now I know why there's a knob on the end - stops you hitting yourself on the head! :yuk:

(With apologies to Woomera for the language! I'm usually so placid and never, ever use language like that!:\)

[Kaptin M]

"serial [email protected] it Torres - of all the things Winnie hadn't claimed to be, it was actually another PPRuNer who picked him in one.

What I love about the guy, is the way he invariably contradicts himself - an ENIGMA.
Several posts back he was blowing his own horn :ooh: (or serial w@nking) about the huge $$$'s he earns flying the rhs - or is he REALLY a steward?? - of corporate charter aircraft.
However in his latest posting he now admitsJust like most of you would jump at a shiny bizjet seat start on low coin...To me, that is doing it for "free"...but I don't whine bout it... I guess you just look at your "low coin" as an "invesment"(sic), Winnie.

BTW, do you speak the way you spell?
I doubt that the F500 execs wouldn't be too impressed if ya did.

Looking forward to the next installment in Winstun's Serial W@nk.

[Torres]

Probably a wannabe dreaming of being a trainee trolley dolley in a Link trainer!:}

[Winstun]

404, not even trying. It is just when I state the facts on any particular matter, some here get woundup when their self-dellusional fantasy of their 'ethical', 'knowledgeable' good selves comes crashing back to reality......:rolleyes: As usual, these simple types have no comeback....just a comedown to their level of fickle abuse. However in his latest posting he now admits Kaptin, are you also not paying attention on flightdeck? I said: ..dont whine bout it....pilots working for free or low coin like yourself... :rolleyes: I am only guessing but I am quite confident to suggest the quarterly interest on my tax free bank account exceeds your annual nett income. :hmm: Good old bitter Aussie envy prevails. :zzz:

[Torres]

"I am only guessing but I am quite confident to suggest the quarterly interest on my tax free bank account exceeds your annual nett income."

Kaptin, I just worked out who Winstun is:

BILL CLINTON! :}

[Kaptin M]

You may well be right, Winnie - "I am only guessing but I am quite confident to suggest the quarterly interest on my tax free bank account exceeds your annual nett income." - but does your tax free bank account have any relativity to your income (or lack of) paid to you as a pilot/assassin/doctor/lawyer/astronaut (or whatever you purport to be this week), Winstun?
Or does it subsidise your "mission" to be one of the above?

You're right, 404, although I think the spring might be a little too tightly wound with Winnie/Walter.
When he's finally exposed, we'll probably find he doesn't have one hour of actual flight time - except the poling (aka "serial w@nking") he's done here.
A good example of what happens to you when you fly for free!!

[404 Titan]

So Winnie the Poo what aircraft do you actually fly for a F500 company. You brag about all your accomplishments in life but you have failed to tell us what aircraft you fly except that you like cruising at FL510. So Winnie be a man and tell us what you fly or are you just a sissy because in reality it’s all in your mind.
:* :yuk:

[Onan the Clumsy]

This is great. I usally hang out in Jet Blast which they say is "Not for the faint of heart". But let me say it's waaaaaaaaaay more 'interesting' in here.

Lots of good replies here. I would have to agree that working without pay arguably hurts other pilots and operators and I understand the idea of collective bargaining, but I don't think it's that simple.

I'll have to reread the thread to get the names to match the quotes, but whoever said they'd never worked for free, I'd respond that they'd been quite lucky/well positioned/good at negotiating, whatever. I suspect that's more of an exception than the norm. Maybe that would make an interesting poll.

I also think the idea of looking on it as further/advanced training is a valid one that will put the discussion in a different light.

As for myself, as I said, I haul checks for free, but I do it part time, once a week in the evening - after 8 hours at my real job. If I don't want to go one week, I can just tell them and it's ok, though there's probably some kind of limit on that. Do I take someone else's job? Quite the opposite in fact. All the 'real' pilots are on salary, so when I fly, it means they get the evening off, which I imagine they appreciate.

Any money they save by not paying me, I'm foolish enough to believe they put into the maintenance of the a/c, which along with insurance, requalification etc is, if not payment to me, then at least payment on my behalf. I look on it as a form of symbiosis.

[Kaptin M]

Do I take someone else's job? Quite the opposite in fact. All the 'real' pilots are on salary, so when I fly, it means they get the evening off, which I imagine they appreciate.

.....and that's what the guy who flies for free on Saturdays says, too. ;)

Come to think of it, so does the one who does it for nicks, on Sundays. :ok:

So now, all the "real" pilots can have nights and week-ends off.

But hey, hang on, the Boss is helping another couple of inexperienced guys fly his expensive machinery, at no cost to them, on weekdays................so that the "real" pilots can have time off during the week to spend with their kids.

As a matter of fact, the Boss is soooo generous that he's told ALL of the pilots who want to work for him for a salary, that he'd rather see them spending ALL their time at home.

Until you guys who work for free, and who offer to work for less than the award realise that it is YOU who is *#@king this industry - not only for the incumbents, but for YOURSELVES, by the time you have decided that you're worth something - flying for a living will eventually become a short term "hobby job" - something you do for a couple of years, to get it "out of your system", until you realise that it doesn't pay the bills, let alone give you the return on the MASSIVE outlay (in dollar and time terms) you made to get your licence(s).

[404 Titan]

My point exactly Kaptin. I’m sure the massive number of recently unemployed American pilot’s really appreciate the likes of Onan the Clumsy or is that Onan the Foolish coming over from Limey Land and stealing their jobs but worse doing it for nothing. When will the likes of Onan the idiot realize that what they are doing today will come back and haunt them tomorrow in piss poor working conditions for everyone.
:mad: :( :yuk: :*

[borg]

So how would you pay your bills clumsy if someone offered to do your "real" job for free and your boss gave you the arse?

Go and tell a hospital intern he doesn't need to get paid beacause its "further/advanced training".

[bigflyingrob]

Well this is very popular with employers! I had it a while ago when I was asked if I was busy on a particular day. When I said no they said they wanted me to go and fix a load of gear for them. When I asked how much they were paying they said as I was not doing anything else they thought I would do it for free! They were a little shocked at my reply!

[currawong]

Any pilot that has -
cleaned their windscreen
swiped a card and pumped fuel
helped out during maintenance
loaded bags
etc etc etc
Has done the unthinkable and taken someone elses job by doing it for nothing. (yes, I have worked somewhere that hires people to clean windscreens )
How many somewhat indignant people that have posted on this thread can honestly say they have not done any of these at some time in their career?
I can remember "demarkation disputes". You know, strike action because some idiot picked up a broom who wasn't a cleaner. How many here, at some stage, as a pilot, have swept out a hanger?
I do not believe Onan is working for free. His remuneration is keeping current and not paying for it. Like the flying schools that have youngsters doing odd jobs for an hours flying a week, that type of thing.
My point is, this is quite a grey/contentious issue. It is not as clear cut as "working for nothing" in many cases. Many many aviators are obliged to work for peanuts (or less) these days for their first few hours.
Just in case you are curious -
No, I am not working for free.(award +, I believe)
Yes, the existence of my employment is under threat by someone independently wealthy dabbling in aviation.:*
No, I am not WINSTUN. :ok:

[Balthazar]

Sorry guys, but every response to winstun gives hin credit.

Ignore the ignoramis. We all know the persona is not a pilot

Kaptin M, you should know better.

[404 Titan]

currawong

I think it is you that has a misunderstanding about this whole work for nothing scenario. You seem to have a problem differentiating between the automation and progress of some types of work and working for nothing. If I have to clean my windscreen or pump my own gas it’s not because I have stolen someone’s job, it’s because most of the service stations these days are self-service.

Now you might argue “what about the young kid who is working in the office of the flying school or in the hangar sweeping the floors for free flying hours”. Well guess what he isn’t working for nothing. He may not be paid in cash but the flying school is still having to make a cash provision in the books for the hours the aircraft will fly. When the person eventually cashes in the hours they are private not charter. Oh and the youngster still has to pay tax on it if he or she is over the tax-free threshold.

The fact of the matter is that if Onan the Clumsy didn’t work for free his employer would have to pay someone to do the job. It is a copout to use the excuse that he only does it to keep current. We all had that problem when we were first starting out but there are some of us out there that still have some moral backbone and didn’t stoop to working for nothing. I personally worked as an accountant in a full time job and paid for my fixes on the weekend until a flying job came up. At first it was only part time, which meant that I had to retain my full time job during the week. Later the part time flying position turned into a full time position and I left the accounting job for good.

It isn’t a grey issue at all. It is very black and white. It is only the likes of you and others like Onan the Clumsy that are self centered and immoral that seem to think it is grey.

:mad: :yuk: :*

[currawong]

404 Titan,

If the issue was black and white this would have been a very short thread indeed.

I do not/have not worked for nothing. Nor would I employ same.

"Most of the service stations these days are self service"

Why?

Where have all the forecourt attendents gone? Kunnanara looking for flying jobs, perhaps?

Automation and progress? "Self service" is doing something for nothing and putting someone else out of a job but you refuse to see it that way. Seems progress includes more people working for nothing.

Re youngsters at flying schools - last time I looked training was "aerial work", not private as you suggest.

If Onan was to actually displace a payed employee or affect someones pay/condx then I agree with you completely.

However, the job description "pilot" seems to be getting bigger and more varied day by day. What I mean is we often undertake many duties outside the job description in order to keep our jobs. Arguably, working for nothing.

For example, I had an employer who rather than sack and rehire during quiet periods, kept his people on and found odd jobs to do to keep the crew together.
How does this sit with your moralistic high horse?

I am in the same boat as you 404. I had to ease into aviation as I could not afford to do it any other way. I was gutted when I saw people turning up for flying lessons in their BMW's etc who could afford the right type ratings etc to get the best jobs, and did. People who would have been better off staying with Daddy's company.

In many ways I agree with what you say.

It is the "shop steward" approach of many years ago that I find offensive.

So, I think like you and am self centered and immoral...

[404 Titan]

currawong

Automation and progress? "Self service" is doing something for nothing and putting someone else out of a job but you refuse to see it that way. Seems progress includes more people working for nothing.

I am and neither are you putting someone out of work because we use a Self Service petrol station. In this industry and in most others increased competition has resulted in lower margins being made by employers. Lower margins means less profit. Less profit means fewer employees. On the other hand increased competition means more jobs because there are more employers i.e. more service stations. The point is though that the people that do work in the petrol stations are paid a wage. They don’t do it for nothing

Re youngsters at flying schools - last time I looked training was "aerial work", not private as you suggest.

I'm sorry but you are wrong. If the youngster is taking the aircraft out by himself to keep current it is “Private Hire”. It is only “Aerial Work” if it is a training flight, which in this case it isn’t.

If Onan was to actually displace a payed employee or affect someones pay/condx then I agree with you completely.

Good because that is exactly what he has done. If two companies had to compete for this work, the one that doesn’t pay the pilot has an unfair advantage over the one that does. This then causes the margin for the company that does pay his pilot to be squeezed, which in turn means there are fewer jobs for paid pilots. There maybe the same number of total pilot jobs but a large proportion of them are doing it for nothing. This is totally different to the Service Station scenario.

However, the job description "pilot" seems to be getting bigger and more varied day by day. What I mean is we often undertake many duties outside the job description in order to keep our jobs. Arguably, working for nothing.

As for the job description of GA pilot. I have been in this industry a long time and worked for a number of different employers and it has always included as well as flying, answering the phone, doing quotes, washing aircraft, fueling the aircraft, loading the aircraft, doing the document amendments for the chief pilot and making the coffee for him as well. If you don’t want to do all these things then you will have to work for a large airline, as even in some regionals you will have to do some of them. Again the point is I am being paid to do the job.

It is the "shop steward" approach of many years ago that I find offensive.

If you really want to know my political view, I’m very right wing. I have generally never liked unions but in some cases think they are a necessity, especially in this day of enterprise bargaining. You have a much better chance of getting the conditions you want if you bargan as a group rather than as an individual.

:*

[currawong]

404

Once again we are very nearly in agreement.

But why do you claim to know more about situations that you have not seen than the people actually there?

The "ramp rats" I refered to were doing it for training, therefore aerial work applies. I was there, I know. You were not.
Why would you claim any different?

Onan gave us some pretty scant details. For all we know the crews got together and asked the employer to get Onan on the job to cover them for a night off or something.
Perhaps a temp is beyond this employer so it is a win/win for all. For all we know this operater does not have opposition to undercut.
We just don't know.
Why would you jump to the conclusion he/she is some kind of scab or something?

I fear if you continue to assume you know more than everybody else here you will be pigeon-holed with Winstun.

[404 Titan]

currawong

The "ramp rats" I refered to were doing it for training, therefore aerial work applies. I was there, I know. You were not.
What’s the difference if these guys were being paid cashto sweep the hangar and refueling aircraft and having a credit put aside for future training. Both ways the flying school has to make the same allowance in the books and in both incidences the kid spends the money on his training keeping someone employed. This isn’t working for nothing, it's bartering. Still taxable by the ATO as well. If the kid was doing the work and getting absolutely nothing for it, then I would have a problem.

Onan gave us some pretty scant details. For all we know the crews got together and asked the employer to get Onan on the job to cover them for a night off or something. Perhaps a temp is beyond this employer so it is a win/win for all. For all we know this operater does not have opposition to undercut. We just don't know. Why would you jump to the conclusion he/she is some kind of scab or something?
As for Onan, he did tell us that he was working for free. So what if his employer couldn’t afford another pilot. If he couldn’t and none of the paid pilots would do the job, another company would do it and hopefully that pilot would be paid. It is the big picture I am looking at, not just the small one. This type of thing effects us all if you look at the big picture, and if more employers do it, it will come and bight us all in the b*m because in the end this industry won’t be worth working in because everyone will be working for nothing.


:{

PS: I'll ignore the Winstun comment for what it worth and pretend you didn’t say it. OK:ok:

[currawong]

404

Agreement again.

Although I thought Onan was bartering too.

And I shall disregard you calling me self centered and immoral.

(for what it is worth)

:ooh:

[404 Titan]

currawong

We agree.

Truce
:hmm: :ok: ;) :)

[Winstun]

Lordy have mercy....thought these two were turning this topic into a queer fest.....:rolleyes: Fact is, 404 is nothing more than your average transparent hypocrite with a pathetic case of self dellusional morality. If he ever had half the chance, I don't doubt he would be grovelling and undercuttting me for a seat in one of the many shiny VVIP jet positions I have held. For coin I consider nothing - but to he would consider good, much more bucks and good jet time. :zzz: So if the kid was getting absolutely near to nothing, it would be ok? What is something good for him is nothing to you............its all relative.;)

[404 Titan]

Oh my God, the Messiah has returned. The bringer of all wisdom and truth to Pprune. He who knows everything. Let me get down on my knees and pray to the almighty “WINSTUN”.

So “Winnie the Poo”, are you going to tell us exactly what you fly at FL510. Let us all see what you are really made of? I’m guessing though it is just hot air.
:suspect:

[Spotlight]

Winstun does make me chuckle. And he's smart you would have to admit. My first guess (the attitude) was Sydney, the intelligence he occasionally shows says Melbourne.

[Kaptin M]

...and the sophistry - Canberra!!

[Winstun]

uhhh....wrong. Would not do time in any cold smelly cities.... I prefer sunny upmarket VIP worldwide resorts. My Aussie passport is merely for convenience (one of many). Only used for tropical vacations, property ownership, first class free medical care, and in case of northern hem. nuclear fallout. :D

[jib]

I haven’t looked a Pprune for a couple of days and this is great, what an amazing wind up! Winstun as a Corporate Driver myself I think you may be expanding your position a little or a BIG package means you are easy to satisfy. RHS and FL510 limits your types quiet quickly. And the Pro Pilot salary survey and common knowledge would indicate that you may be pushing the truth a little. Most of us do Corporate for the life style not the Dollars, If I am wrong good luck to you but I am not convinced.
Also a long way from the original question guys and Gals.

jib

[tenke]

The only route to where? To do what? Have a good look at the industry and do the righty where you are, chances are there might then be somewhere to progress to.

[Chocks Away]

To get back on the track...:p

Working for nothing is a disgrace and this industry has seen nothing but each other undercutting "their mates", for many years.

I too, was struggling for a leg up into the industry, in the "Top End" back in 1990, with many an "89 pilot around in GA.

Ah, a challenge!

How do I maintain my drive and flair for what I love, while being "on the spot" ready for that off chance offer of a (proving) flight/charter... (hopefully under quote! :\ )?

We (3) started an aircraft cleaning, degreasing, wax & polish company... and mate, it took off!

Employers saw us there eager and keen, while showing some initiative! :D

It kept us at the airport ready for that off-chance job offer... and it did come.

Show some flair and initiative instead of stooping to the gutter and undermining our profession.

YOU/WE ARE ALL PROFESSIONALS AND ARE WORTH SOMETHING!:ok:

[1723KG]

We must take a step back and consider what a new CPL is actually worth to a charter company.

EG: John Doe has an aviation degree and 150 hours. He left school, went straight to uni and hasn't paid a cent for any of his training. He has never had a part time job before and got a car for his birthday. He did all of his training at a large institution where flying trianing comprises 99% of the organisations business and very few instructors have actually flown charter.

His best mate now flys for the red rat after going through the cadet scheme and tells our friend John how good it is to fly as a S/O and how he will be a Captn soon.

What we have is a person with not many life skills, no business skills, no sales skills, no real work ethic, has illusions about the industry and thinks it owes him a huge salary.

I dont condone working for free. I can see the merits in putting on newbies, as they need a start somewhere. For all the guys and girls out there that think your doing it tough, think of it as a learning process, and if youve just got a job, think of it as your OWN business and think of ways that YOU can earn your company more money and in turn, YOURSELF.

Come into the industry with some experience in other fields (like sales) and realize that you will be doing it tough for a while. Show your CP why you are worth x amount of dollars per hour and make a name for yourself.

If you cant hack it, then you have just seen how `only the toughest survive' works. Its all one big culling process which is there for the dedicated only.



1723kg

[Ski Guru]

ooooooooooooooook.

[puff]

Interesting thoughts 1723KG, but you must remember not EVERY pilot comes from the sausage factories and lot everyone has 'nothing' to offer. To a retail situation a day one 21 year old checkout chick isn't trained in the role, starts on a hourly rate equal to someone who has been doing the job for months......yet there is this 'constant' smattering that commercial operators are doing pilots a favour for letting them fly their planes for 'free'. Your not expected to work for free waving barcodes over a reader, however it's ok to do this in aviation because it's always been that way...the question is why?

[poteroo]

Supply and Demand - or Job 'Attractiveness' ?

This thread is back where it started -why are so many people attracted to aviation? You can earn heaps more just driving a truck in the Pilbara. Cleaners on the new NW Shelf projects make more than a Skywest F/O.

I think it has much to do with being a 'clean' job - sort of outside office if you like. Sure, there's the fact that flight schools are promoting aviation, and it looks like a glam job from the bottom looking up. I don't think that anyone ever thinks that they'll reach heavy captaincy, and so, they are not really looking at the future money.

Have a look at professional sport, and the entertainment industry if you want parallels to aviation. In both of those industries, it's dog eat dog. There are no minimums, no levels to which people won't stoop to succeed, and no associations or unions helping anyone except those who've already made it. The potential rewards are staggering - far beyond what you will ever make from flying. But the success rate is very,very,very,very low. And lots of people are used up along the way.

Aviation isn't the only industry where the inexperienced have to trim their price to what the market will pay. When I started in agricultural consulting, it was very new, and I reckon that I worked 2 hrs for every 1 that I charged out. Only when clients gained confidence in my advice was I able to increase my charging, and begin to make half a living. Those at the top make a good crust, and deserve to.

What's really different in aviation?

Rather than be infighting amongst ourselves as pilots, maybe it's time to challenge the 'rosy future' advertising of the flying training industry - on the basis of truth in advertising?

cheers,

[U2]

If pilots were like contractors then this thread would be point less, but pilots are generally employees, or free lancers(pun not intended).

If you want to work for free, then you are more competitive for the hours than the next bloke.

However, there are some moral employer obligations that you must force you employer to provide. If you are out bush where jobs are scarce and rent is expensive and you spend all day out at the airport then your employer has a moral obligation (My opinion) to provide accomodation and transport. The basics. Maybe even provide food. If you work in population centres and work for free your employer should help out with public transport and on the job provisions. At least in the city you can get after hours jobs!

It is down right immoral for a company to not provide anything to its employee, to take and not to give, especially in remote area or places of little community support. Some of this companies have rich owners who can afford expensive personal items. If you work for free you must atleast get by. Even if your employer wants to pay your but can't then they should use or provide what ever is in there inventory, whatever they can. Accomodation, food, transport, internet access, phone, washing machine etc. It doesn't matter.

The worst of employers are the onces who pay you nothing or next to nothing for working all-day, all week out bush and charge you for peanut expenses.

This is the basic law of charity!!!!!!!!


All those employers who fit into the above category need an ethics check.

U2

[Continental-520]

Well, well, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Amongst the high negativity surrounding our industry these days, I'm pleased to be able to shed a bit of positive light on it.

Today, my Chief Pilot told me that I will be given a pay rise. And, we're not talking just 10 or so %, but try 70%!!! Quite a change indeed. Whilst the pilots in my company don't generally complain about the below award pay, the boss claims it is merely to "help keep his operating costs down just while he builds up the business", and that eventually better days will come both for him and his pilots. I never thought I'd see the day, but hey, I have!

He also said it was derserved for my "extra efforts of late" whatever that means, but I can't say I've done anything lately which has been beyond the norm, nor have any of the other guys. We (the line pilots) came to the conclusion later that perhaps the boss was just showing his appreciation towards us, which is nice to see.

I really wish that every employer in GA could be as good as mine sometimes. Although, I am aware there are still decent ones in operation, thankfully. And not just cause of the pay rise, believe it or not. It is one of the few companies around who are willing to give first timers a go, teach them lots in the process yet not expect them to have experience beyond their years.

Hope this boosts the meagre opinions that some of you may (so rightly) have on the industry right now.

Keep at it!


520.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

520:

Well Done, you and your colleagues obviously have what it takes and will go far.

It sounds like you guys have worked real hard to help develop a business.

Over the years, I have worked with, and had Pilot's work for me with a similar positive outlook - and you know what, they are all now driving Boeings or similar.

Your attitude makes you very employable and the rewards will surely follow. Keep it up and spread it around.



:ok:

[Aussierotor]

On a general overview there is no where you work for free.
A greedy operator or one who wants to give a low hour pilot a go for nothing just happens to be giving the kid a financial bonus.
Travel all around Australia doing odd jobs here and there and at the end of the year your broke anyway.Get a "no pay" job and after a year your still broke,but have in actual fact saved a fortune in hour building and have the hours up to get a payed job..
Some people arent born lucky or were born with the silver spoon in their mouth.They just want to fly because they love it.They arent the guys who role up to flight training in a BMW.
My son tried for years after getting a chopper licence,but with minimum hours found it impossible,but luck came his way after 5 when his old instructor contacted him with a job.
Yes ,he would have flown for free if he had the chance.
Just imagine on a station with free board and say 500 hours in the year.Enough hours to get a paid job (maybe) and $150,000 worth of flying time---not a bad deal really

[Chocks Away]

... and just where, tell me, is the line drawn?:suspect:

Where does an attitude like that, finally wake up and decide his/her experience is NOW worthy of PAY?

:hmm:


A greedy operator or one who wants to give a low hour pilot a go for nothing just happens to be giving the kid a financial bonus ???:yuk:


You are right, not all of us rock(ed) up in BMWs with silver spoons in our mouth! I can tell you I earnt my place and it wasn't by working free of charge!

I said it before and it looks like it's gotta be said again :
YOU/WE ARE ALL PROFESSIONALS AND ARE WORTH SOMETHING!

[Captain Sand Dune]

"A greedy operator or one who wants to give a low hour pilot a go for nothing just happens to be giving the kid a financial bonus."

And the "greedy operators" will continue not to pay low hour pilots because they know they can now get away with it!:* :*

As far as I'm concerned the only time I should be paying for hours is for training, endorsements and to fly Mum and the kids around on weekends.

If you are performing you are entitled to be paid for it.

[getmeoutovga]

Reading through these post its just amazes me how little self esteem many of my fellow pilots have. To think you are worth nothing, that your time or skill isn't worth a cent really says something about how you see yourself. If you think that you are so worthless or that your skills as a pilot are so underdeveloped then maybee you need to go back and do more training??

Or maybee I'm just being cynical, because as we all know its common practice in just about every other profession to work for free/peanuts for the first couple of years. I've lost count of the number of accountants/doctors/whatever working down at the 7/11 to supplement their income. (just a hint of sarcasm)

[404 Titan]

Aussierotor

Your attitude amazes me. You obviously can’t see that this affects us all. If you just for one minute looked at the big picture you would hopefully realize that pilots working for nothing have a flow on effect for the whole aviation industry.

Lets look at it in a different way. I assume you are flying R22’s in the NW of Australia, as your profile would lead us to believe. I also assume that you are getting paid for that job. Now lets assume an opposition company is also competing for the same work that your company is. They though have an advantage in that they don’t pay their pilots. Their boss has the attitude that he is giving the new kids a “financial bonus” in that they are getting free flying hours. The result of all this is your company can’t compete because their costs are too high. Your boss then calls a meeting with all his pilots and tells you he is going to have to lower all your wages and lay off some pilots. You are one of the pilots he is going to have to lay off. I wonder what your attitude would be now to the pilots that are working for nothing for the opposition. They have just cost you your job and your lively hood.

Now this isn’t an isolated case. It is happening throughout the aviation industry. People are loosing their jobs because companies can’t afford them anymore because of unscrupulous operators who refuse to pay their pilots. The more this happens the higher up the food chain this type of thing will occur.
:yuk: :mad: :*

[Spotlight]

I cannot claim to have read or reread all of the posts on this topic, however I have followed it and I think understand the general gist of it.

What I get from the general gist does not surprise me. There are Commercial Pilots galore willing and offering to prostitute themselves to gain hours.

What I do not get from the general gist is that there is this phalanx of operators slavering at the bit to get some of this free labour.

[Aussierotor]

404 TITAN,

Dont get me wrong,i totally agree with your comments.
No one wants to work for nothing.I was saying that low hour guys find it hard to get a start.They ponder the future and realize they need more hours but have no money.Someone mentions where they can build the hours up for free--------its only human to give it a thought ,right or wrong.
Fixed wing may be easier but son did a fixed wing/chopper combined which gave him 70 hours in a chopper.When he rented one he couldnt even take his old man for a ride because of insurance reasons--100 hours minimum,but could fly solo under the flying school on navigation training..
Tell me a place that hires 70 hour pilots.Sh1t,i even offered to pay half his wage(unbeknown to him) to a few places to no avail,and no one said he could fly with them for B-All.
Think those days have gone in the chopper industry.
The amusing thing ,he applied for a job thinking it was a heli ,but guy rang him an said it was fixed wing on a station and wanted him as he his was the only application.
He was fresh off the block then and only wanted heli,s.Dont know the pay rates ,it may have been one of those guys not prepared to pay.
Looking back he was a D-Head as he could have got mustering experience but thats life.

But yes ,now after 5 years ,out of the blue when he was doing the backpacker thing overseas,he gets an offer.Quick trip home and he starts next month.

Maybe age has something to do with it--he was only 17 when he got his licence.

All i referred to in the first place was that all you guys out there if in the same boat,love flying for the sake of flying,cant get a job because of low hours etc and get offered free hours ,who honestly would knock it back.

[currawong]

Everyone here seems to have some pretty valid opinions based on their own experiences.

It would be interesting to see where/when it all started.

Has to be some history there. Anyone?

[Transition Layer]

Aussierotor:

Sh1t,i even offered to pay half his wage(unbeknown to him) to a few places to no avail,

It is people like you, with attitudes like that, which are the problem with this industry. I am still finding it hard to believe I just read that.

:mad:
TL

[Boney]

At the last place I worked up north, we constantly had rich kids from Syd/Mel who's Daddy was topping up the account every week and they would walk in offering to work for free. From mates that are still working there, I believe it is still going on. The boss was also constantly reminding us of these guys.

I had one of these guys say to me, consider myself lucky - imagine how much it would cost to pay for these hours myself.

If that is your attitude, why did you bother getting a Comical Licence? These w@ankers are thinking like a PPL.

These mongrels that do offer, and subsequently work for free, I hope don't get into an airline due to a medical issue or something. Then they will be stuck in an industry for life that they helped to destroy.

I love flying for a living, repeat, FOR A LIVING!

If there is no living to be made, sorry - not interested!

[404 Titan]

Aussierotor

You know too many people think this world owes them something. Well guess what, it doesn’t. It reminds me of a famous saying from an ex Australian Prime Minister. “Life wasn’t meant to be easy”. We have all been through the problem of getting our first flying job, but there are some of us that had some moral backbone and wouldn’t work for free. It is a complete cop out to say it is my only way of getting the hours to be really employable. Where do you think all our hours came from? The tooth fairy? They have taken the easy road and screwed everyone else trying to make a living, out of a paying flying job. It took me three years to get my first job flying after doing my CPL. I consider this pretty quick compared to other people I know. One in particular who took six years.
:*

[Aussierotor]

Geez ,ducking for cover.

Actually i dont know a single person who has worked for nothing.
Have heard a few stories but have never encounted such practices.
My attitude,the way i phrase things,i dont know,but i was stating what a few would do and the reasons.The world is full of people who only look after Number 1 these days.
How can you work for nothing anyway----i thought there was a minimum wage law.
Underpaid is common ,but that is usually through job description,as in a ringer doing mustering and only getting paid station hand wage,or a guy getting classified as general handyman and doing heaps of flying.

Until something is done about human nature rules right or wrong.

Surely some of you have done free flying ,not as in a permanent job but in a ferry or someone paying for the plane hire for a flight.Not the same i know but its along the same lines--free hours.

I apologize to everyone,especially about the comment of paying half his wage ,but i just wanted to get him a start after another company sh@t on him with promises and only used him--he was getting paid though.

But in the end it all worked out so im on your side now.

Once again ,sorry,im a bad man ,but at least it gave the keyboards a workout.