AIPA's lack of Representation

[balance]

A thread that is mainly aimed at the QF readers, however others with sensible input please feel free to add your 10c. For obvious reasons, I don't feel that this thread could safely be put on Qrewroom without some kind of recrimination, so guys make your presence felt here first, then we can start saying things in another forum.

It seems that every QF pilot I talk to is dissatisfied with the performance of our association. Of course - that is apart from 744 drivers who would be relatively pleased with their lot. It would also seem that resignation en-mass is only prevented by our need to remain in the Loss of Licence insurance offered through AIPA.

Our representatives clearly aren't listening to us, ie the Jetconnect problem; or if they are, they certainly aren't providing us with any feedback.

Someone once said to me - if you don't like whats happenning at AIPA, get voted in and fix it. Thats a pretty silly response, I have no industrial experience or training, and regardless I pay people at AIPA who do have this experience a substantial amount of my pay.

So, are we as a pilot body getting what we pay for? Our association is learly a joke, and the people laughing the hardest are the QF management and the bean counters. How long do we let this go on for? Why are we being treated like mushrooms by GD and his pals?

What the!?$#@$!

[Draculas Teabag]

er, bring back bill?

[Longhauler]

For someone called "Balance", you are not showing much of it in your post.

Firstly, let me say that I am not happy about the situation with Jetconnect - far from it. I am also not happy about the level of communication (or lack thereof) from AIPA . For the record - I am on the 744 fleet.

1. "I don't feel that this thread could safely be put on Qrewroom".

I agree but could it also be that you do not wish to state your argument using your real name lest you show a level of ignorance about the industrial state of play?

2. "then we can start saying things in another forum"

If you have something to say then say it - you don't need the rest of us to group think it for you.

3. "It seems that every QF pilot I talk to is dissatisfied with the performance of our association"

Not on the 744 but yes, we do have a much better "lot" than some others.

4. "It would also seem that resignation en-mass is only prevented by our need to remain in the Loss of Licence insurance offered through AIPA"

Say what? I believe that the "silent majority" would be watching you and your sympathisers walk away from what is arguably the best job in Australian aviation.

5. "Our representatives clearly... ... aren't providing us with any feedback"

Couldn't agree more. The level of communication from AIPA is sub-standard and normally far too late to deflate the rumours doing the rounds.


Perhaps one needs to consider the "big picture" here. The forces of economic reform are upon us. They cannot be stopped. The only decision is whether we igonore them and bury our head in the sand or navigate our way through them whilst obtaining the best possible conditions and pay. If you don't like what's happening then put pen to paper and send it to the union. Complaining here is like banging the table at Fatties - might feel good but achieves very little.


LH

[Keg]

Whilst I have certain opinions that may not necessarily agree with balance' point of view Longhauler, I will point out that he isn't talking about quitting the job- just the association!

I dissatisfied with certain aspects but on toto, pretty happy with how my union performs. It is after all, only as good as we make it. I make a habit of sending emails about issues I feel strongly about and happen to make sure that the COM members get my thoughts on whatever issues are coming up at the moment. I had an initial panic over the Jet Connect stuff until I remembered that it was telegraphed at the meeting in March (??). Still not happy about it but at least it's not like it was unexpected.

As for the confidentiality of this forum as opposed to Qrewroom, well I guess that is a given in this day and age- not that this forum is any more confidential than the other one, it just has a smaller reading! :D

As Bryan said on Qrewroom. Some things aren't for publication via a Public Forum. Still, the AIPA web site could be used more effectively for this sort of stuff.

We will see what we will see.

[fartsock]

Hey keg, nice number of posts - appropriate......

Balance - I agree 100%. We are at a turning point at the moment. Either the association (ie the pilot body) stands up for whats fair and resonable or we concede defeat.

After 15 years of piss-poor representation I have had a gutful. I too am only a member because of the LOL insurance and as that has gone down the toilet as well I am considering my options in detail at present.

Longhauler - come to the B767 for 12 months and see if your perspective hasn't changed by the end of it. Frankly, the second biggest problem of the inability of the COM to make a decision is the fantasy land the -400 pilots live in.

One day you will be over 60 or will take promotion, but by then it will be too late.

[balance]

Longhauler, thanks for your reply. It figures that you are on the 744 though. Perhaps you should talk to some short haul pilots, or 767, or even some classic drivers and guage their level of dissatisfaction with AIPA. It is extreme.

Firstly, I believe that Keg has probably cleared up one point that you made. There are a couple of others that you made though.

I am ignorant of our industrial state of play, yes. That is because AIPA will not tell us what the state of play is. All we get is from the Fin Review and the Australian. And the state of play annunciated by them is unacceptable to a majority of our membership. Yet not a peep from AIPA.

You make a very interesting point about "group think". For the uninitiated, this term refers to a bad situation in the cockpit whereby the crew reach a majority decision, as opposed to a reasoned command decision. "Group Think" is not acceptable in the cockpit, but it is a requirement of a democracy. And AIPA fits that scenario. We should be discussing matters, and group think is a good idea. Talk about it, make others aware, let people know where we stand. And yes, then perhaps we can move on to other forums.

The "big picture" as you put it is a little difficult to figure. The story we receive is one sided propaganda put to us by bean counters. AIPA don't even appear to know about the Jetconnect issue.

I'm not saying for an instant that the current situation in aviation is rosy. But there is a line to be drawn here, and AIPA haven't even got a pen to draw it with. And, we have to get it together here. The company will continue to divide and conquer if we let them. And that is exactly what they are currently doing.

And Bill? Well, I believe he is too busy chasing the fairer sex.

[Longhauler]

Balance,

I misunderstood your point re: leaving AIPA - my mistake (thanks Keg!)

As I read your second post you seem to articulate your argument a lot better. I interpreted your first post as a table thumping exercise (was it not?) and - to be honest - I am sick to death of hearing crew venting their spleens at bars but not making any approaches to AIPA. I think we are on pretty much the same wavelength here.

Fartsock, I am aware that I live in a "fantasy land" on the -400 but I like to think that I keep perspective of the bigger picture. I don't for a second doubt that life on the 767 is very different. Also, do you think I am happy about my promotional opportunities being shafted by the current situation?

Surely, however you must agree with the last paragraph of my first post?! If not then you are being unrealistic.

In any case, this is probably not a discussion that should continue in great depth on a public forum such as this.

LH

[balance]

Quite right LH, with most issues AIPA needs some prodding. And thats fine.

But with some recent issues, such as Jetconnect; the issue is "in your face". I'm quite sure we don't need 2250 pilots to ring AIPA to advise them that the situation is not acceptable.

They should realise, comprehend, get feedback, communicate their intentions to us and the company, and then act. All without us hassling them. After all, that is what we pay them for.

At this point in time they don't communicate, act or comprehend. And feedback is likely to result in recriminations when your email arrives on WK's desk.

A cynic may wonder whether GD doesn't wish to act because it may compromise his chances of becoming management, or even dare I say it, Chief Pilot????? Shock horror!

[Teknoslug]

What do you want to do about Jet Connect?
Stop Qantas forming an overseas subsidiary company?,
Demand mainline pilots operate those aircraft (Scope?)
What power do you have to enforce your solutions?.

Do you want to indulge in illegal industrial action and be personally liable under law for the losses suffered by Qantas as a result of your illegal action?

Wake up to the reality of current Aust. Industrial relations law and what the Howard govt is doing by stealth.

The ability of a union to get a result is a direct relationship with the perception of what actions they will take. The actions the union will take are directly influenced by member committment and expressions of desired outcomes. Giving YOUR union some "expressions of committment" and desired course of action would be a help. i.e Write to your local member!

Sitting back and cowardly carping via an anonymous forum is just another way of waiting for other people to fix things for you. go direct to the source of your discontent. Dont poison the well with your uninformed opinion.

Qantas will continue to effect change to lower their costs, that is a priority task of a corporate animal. It will happen!

Managing that change is the challenge, hoping to stop it dead is pie in the sky.

Qrewroom posts feature a couple of AIPA Com members who seem to know but cant publicly communicate the jetconnect scenario? Ever thought of giving them a call, their contact details are on the newsletter and AIPA website I believe.

Be pro-active.

[Three Bars]

As I said on the Jetconnect thread - altruism does not pay the mortgage or the bills.

I think I would be representative of the silent majority who would be extremely loath to consider any industrial action in the current political and aviation climate. I remember watching a finance show on TV once, that said that most of us are three paypackets short of bankruptcy - in other words, lose three paypackets and you're out. Personally, I'm usually about one paypacket away - or it seems that way!

The upheaval of the last two years is unprecedented and, while AIPA does not communicate very well - and maybe it can't show its hand on many of these sensitive issues - I would hope and expect that they have our best interests at heart.

Think back to 1989 - dare I mention that date here on this forum!! A labour Government did everything it could to break a union organsiation. Many who resigned enmasse are still not working in Australia, or are now doing so under drastically reduced conditions. The stakes in industrial disputes are always very high and, as far as I'm concerned, I have one loyalty - and that is to my family. Any action that I may, or may not take, will only be made after carefully considering the affect on my family first.

Hopefully, the aviation climate will improve, SARS will disappear into history, QF will return a good profit next year, and things will get back to a more even keel.

[balance]

Thanks slug, I appreciate your comments, and most importantly I understand your sentiment. I wish that we simply could follow your recommendations, because they are the best approach.

Alas, with the current AIPA, it is impossible. That is my point and the entire reason for the thread. Read back to my original post, and you will note this quote:

"Someone once said to me - if you don't like whats happenning at AIPA, get voted in and fix it. Thats a pretty silly response, I have no industrial experience or training, and regardless I pay people at AIPA who do have this experience a substantial amount of my pay."

My "cowardly carping" as you put it (and thanks for that!), is simply in response to a situation developing whereby our association is a joke. It is a toothless tiger which can barely raise a "meow".

Three bars, I like your idea, but I'm afraid that the ostrich approach may not pan out in the way that we want. I believe that the company will take advantage of us in every way that they can (ie the bean counters), and if we put up no resistance then we will lose out. I don't advocate strike action by any means, but there are other very effective means of gaining the company's attention.

My aim here is to stimulate discussion, something which cannot be done on Qrewroom, or indeed directly to the source yet. But in time, perhaps we will.

Comments like yours, slug and three bars, are adding to the discussion, and are very healthy. Keep it up!

[MoFo]

The Jet Connect issue has finally got the troops fired up.
But look at how they all sat back and copped Impulses taking over much short haul flying without a whimper.
Dixon said at the time the 717s would only be used on "holiday" destinations. What crap. Hobart is a Capital city. Melbourne Coolangatta has a high proportion of business travellers also.
Try getting a seat to Hobart out of Melbourne some days. The 717s are full but Dixon won't put larger aircraft on the route.
These routes are operated by a low cost fully owned QF subsidiary, whose staff work for peanuts.
AIPA must be happy with this arrangement judging by the lack of protest.

[GT-R]

When the LOI insurance goes, which of course it will, I can't see any point in being an AIPA member anymore.

[Hugh Jarse]

After 15 years of piss-poor representation I have had a gutful. I too am only a member because of the LOL insurance and as that has gone down the toilet as well I am considering my options in detail at present.
When the LOI insurance goes, which of course it will, I can't see any point in being an AIPA member anymore.

I can see a parallel here with the sentiment of many QF regional pilots and their dealings with the AFAP. Many feel their needs are being bypassed in the interest of other things. Many are considering alternative representation. But not AIPA.

A union is supposed to provide a service to it's clients. As I've written many times before, if you're not happy with the service, find another provider that will give you the service you deserve.

But what are our options as pilots? The TWU? Not as silly as it sounds, considering the QF porters (which are covered by the TWU) are virtually "untouchable".

Food for thought.

[Sonny Hammond]

Divide and conquer....

Qf pilots with no representation will not last 2 minutes in the wilderness.

Then what?

[Capt Claret]

as an aside to your comments about AFAP, I was quite disappointed to see Lawrie Cox, I think, on the 7:30 report recently, claim that NJS pilot's were "scared" to write up defects.

For me, this statement was all inclusive even though in 8 years I've not once been questioned about writing up a defect, nor have I ever had to worry about, or been scared to do so!

I find it somewhat difficult to reconcile that this organisation is supposed to look after my interests too! :hmm:

[The Spin Doctor]

MoFo,
I didn't expect that response from you.