Whats changed about the RAF in the last thirty yrs??

[Mooney12]

Reading these forums and listening to past and senior presenet RAF officers and NCO's, all I ever hear is that the RAF is not what it used to be? What has changed? Is it less professional/less effective? Is the problem caused by cuts in defense funding over the years? Im v.interested in hearing these views. I personally think it is just that society is one now in which the military is seen as a much less attractive career option.

Also is the RAF the best af in the world? What does everyone think of the USAF monkeys?

[1.3VStall]

What's changed in 30 years? How about the following for starters:

1. Withdrawal from east of Suez, so FEAF, NEAF and AFME disappeared.

2. Withdrawal from Germany, so no more RAFG.

3. Reduction in uniformed personnel from c150,000 to c50,000.

4. Closures of so many RAF stations at home that there are only about 12 runways left, so no more delights like postings to Bassingbourn, Little Rissington, Thorney Island et al.

5. Swingeing reductions in the numbers of combat aircraft such that there are now more Air Officers than flying machines.

6. Mass civilianisation and contractorisation, followed by PFIs and PPIs.

7. Commanders and Leaders replaced by Executives, Managers and Budget Holders.

8. Re-equipment programmes that provide kit that is late, way over budget and doesn't work.

I could go on, but....

Is the RAF still the best? You'll have to ask the top-rate guys who are still in - I bailed out a few years ago!

[Tourist]

1) Little
2) God No!
3) Monkeys with great kit


:D

[The Gorilla]

The biggest change is the people!

We used to have leaders who were men of honour with integrity.

Not any more. Now we have useless yes men who are frightened of their own shadows.

:mad:

[nutmeg]

We don't have Vulcans anymore.

[mutleyfour]

Its got smaller...:ok:

Mind you

One thing that hasn't changed is the uniform....yak:yuk:

[bigley]

The WRAFs are better looking!:ok:

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

Investors in People / Human Rights, its gone all pink & fluffy, what happened to discipline. To many namby pamby's joining up. What ever happened to the chief taking you round the back of the hanger and giving you a thick ear.

I don't think that the WRAF have got better looking, we've all got older and less choosy!

Penny pinching, can't get kit until after the punch up most of the time. Have to buy our own kit.

To Many rules to protect the hierarchy.

To many fun police.

Drink driving laws (not a bad thing) reducing the size of gatherings at happy hours / functions.

[Mooney12]

Obviously its got smaller, but what I really want to know is: are the people still of the highest quality? The RAF has been upping the pay stakes to attract the best and OASC is an amazing set-up. Used by lots of airlines including Virgin at.

The reason im asking is because I'm considering joining myself but my dad rekons getting a commission (pilot) is the same as a 16 yr prison sentence????????????????

[mutleyfour]

Well then mooney, your Dad's an Arse!

Best thing I ever did! There is a caveat to that though...I joined the Army.

[adrian mole]

1.3V

Well said Sir....

We had a transport fleet of nearly 300 aircraft.

You could travel the world.

There were no women in any of the 'front line' trades.

Airmen/Airwomen/Airpersons did as they were told without question.

You knew you were guaranteed an overseas posting every 3 years.

People were pleased to see a man in uniform and we used to receive perks in the form of 'Forces Rates' etc.

Before the 'Irish' Problem you could safely hitch hike and carrying a RAF holdall guranteed you a lift!

We do seem to have more Donkeys leading Lions these days.

The officer/Airman ratio has greatly increased over the years, why?

I now see several appointments being filled by Flt Lt's which 30 years ago were Cpl's. (On the ground I may add!)

We had SNCO pilots.....

Enough of this prattle, yes, things have changed over the last 30 years and not many for the better. the bottom line is though the calibre of the individuals is overall as good as ever. For years because of cuts I've done the work of 3 men, if only I was given their wages as well!

[soddim]

I think the people coming in are just as good if not better than we were. What has changed is what the RAF makes of them during their careers. It seems nowadays that we treat them poorly, reward them badly, overwork them remorselessly, promote them unfairly and, apparently, are surprised when they leave too early.

The RAF needs leaders who can change this.

[Mooney12]

Yeah deffo-there are many more officers now than there were a number of yrs ago. I think this is because more and more people are getting more and more qualifications. The RAF has just last year addressed this issue by upping the requirements from 2 or more A-Levels to a degree or better. This may have some impact. But I do agree that NCO's need to be recruited in greater numbers, paid and treated better. Interesting here is that you have to be an officer to be a pilot, same goes for the Army air core. 75% of RAF pilots are graduates and the RAF wants to lower this. Hmmm seems a bit contradicting to me.

Too many chiefs and too few Indians

[Huron Topp]

Mooney: correction, Army Air Corps still has NCO pilots.

[pr00ne]

1.3VStall,

Nitpicking I know, and not wishing to detract from the general gist of your post, but it's 30 runways not 12.

Mooney12,

What Air Force are you in?

"many more Offficers now than there were a number of years ago"


If by "a number of years ago" you are referring to 1924 then I would perhaps agree, it's been a down hill slope since 1952.


Biggest change in 30 years?

Happy hour and social life in general.

[Mooney12]

I was meaning more Officers in relation to NCO's, not numerically.

I'm not in any airforce, but I want to join the RAF I think, but I keep getting told not to. I want some views specifically on the modern RAF, social wise and operational. Regarding the Army, I was told they were phasing out NCO pilots? If any of my facts are wrong feel free to tell me, half the stuff I hear is probably bollocks anyway.

[1.3VStall]

pr00ne,

I'm sorry, but you can't count 08/26 as two runways!

One thing I didn't say on my original post was that one thing that hasn't changed in the last 30 years is the aircraft inventory: Canberra, Hercules, VC10, Nimrod, Puma...

[pr00ne]

1.3VStall,

If I was to count 08/26 as 2 then that would make it 60 not 12. More if you count those few airfields with more than the one active.

Mooney12

More officers in relation to SNCO's? No still way out I'm afraid.
Now, if you had said 'more contractors/MoD Civilians or full time reservists vs regulars, ' then you'd have been spot on.

That for me is the largest single operational change, we do far less for ourselves than we used to. I know we have always had contractors, 7 Sqn groundcrew in the 70's, Manby engineers for instance, but now it is simply barmy!

I see in the latest weekly propaganda rag that FR Aviation are advertising for E-3 ground engineers for Waddington...................

[Blacksheep]

If you want to know what's changed, check out the 'kipper fleet macho tribalist' thread. Just a reflection of society generally, but its definitely different when a military officer 'refuses' a posting on the grounds that they would have to serve abroad etc. Thirty years ago that would have resulted in severe disciplinary measures with a court martial and worse to follow...

If you ask me, the modern military isn't macho, chauvinist and tribal enough, but then what would a father of four feisty young women know anyway? In the event daring young men and women in their flying machines continue to courageously put themselves in harms way in a thoroughly professional and competent way.

My advice is to bear in mind that nothing ever stays the same and those 'Good Old Days' are always right now.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[opso]

I could be missing something here Mooney12, but if you're thinking of joining, then how the RAF was 30 years ago is completely irrelevant.

Apart from maybe when the founding members left, there hasn't ever been a time when someone leaving has said "The RAF is better now than when I joined", instead they say "It's gone downhill." Part of it is based on fact, part on age and cynicism. I can't stay up drinking all night and survive to fly in the morning, therefore route flying "isn't what it used to be". But that's me changing that's taken that party away. (Although it's also a fact that the crew duty days have become fuller and the nightstops fewer.)

Ask the guys who have joined in the last 5 years and are newish on sqns and many of them will tell you, honestly, that they are having the time of their lives. If you are thinking of joining you should be looking to your future and not the RAF's past. Compare flying in the RAF to working in a bank and there is still no comparison - fly or die!

By the way, I agree with all of the posts above about how it has changed - I just don't believe they are relevant to you. I would add to the list that there is less of a sense of duty amongst entrants than 30 years ago and so it is more frequently viewed as a 9-5 job (which we all know it isn't).

[Mooney12]

Yep totally, not point in looking to the past. The comparision with the bank job puts things into perspective, plus Eurofighter should be coming in soon(hopefully)-which will give the RAF much greater capability. The only bit tht worries me is 12 yrs min for a pilot. If it was 6, I would have already joined.

[soddim]

The most enjoyable part of your flying would probably be after you had served 6 years - up until then you would probably be working hard at it to become really useful operationally.

Even a 12-year engagement is a bit short.

[WokkaCrewman]

The main thing I have noticed over the last few years to the detrement of the service is the amount of Morale Prevention Officers now being employed. Remember the good old days when you could organise a skiing/drinking exped without having to justify every single penny and without having to take the fun prevention officer with you?! And there was a time when you could paint your ar*e blue and cycle up the out of use r/way singing 'Tipperary' after a beer call without ending up in front of Staish, but sadly these days are long gone. Perhaps RAF should now stand for 'Rules Against Fun'

Any thoughts?

[blaireau]

Changes? A few.
On joining in 64, my starting pay was 1 STG/day.
In 66 at CFS, my salary was 75 STG/month, but for 50P, I could borrow a JP for the weekend and visit friends around the country.
In the mid 70's, I borrowed a Navy F4K for the weekend to attend the Chivenor closing down bash. That was a weekend to remember!
Good old days. There like will not come again I think.
I continue to fly, but my recent request for a weekend B777 has been turned down.

[Stan Bydike]

The Fun Prevention Officers are really in the ascendancy. Recently tried to organise an Exped to the States as a low cost option. The pre-booked and paid for trooper seats to DC wouldn't go to waste then.

Only to be told that it was no longer permitted for those seats to be used for sports teams, expeds etc

[Mooney12]

The RAF still knows how to have fun though. I was in a UAS for two years and the amount of drinking that went on during a friday night was phenomenol! Plus if you live at RAF kinloss, I heard the Nimrod crews strip out the inside of the craft, go to France and pile it full off booze-nice and cheap. It's the yearly booze run and it's the officers that take the orders-haha!

[Spot 4]

30 years agi I wanted to be in the Air Force but wasnt.

30 years on, I am in the Air Force but dont want to be.

Has a lot to do with Investors in paper, no promotion even when critically undermanned with FS & MACR ranks. H&S at W deleting any `Can do` attitude. Civilianisation ensuring that fewer people do more, without a respite tour option. Good guys leaving resulting in plonkers leading. 85% first tourists! and that is before you start on being a US side kick pawn member of Tonys private Air Farce.


Yes at long last I too now have a full blown chip on the shoulder, and it is time to go whilst I still have a pension to leave with!

[reynoldsno1]

It all went wrong as soon as the woolie pullie was introduced ... luckily my No.2's lasted until I got out...

[Mooney12]

I don't understand half these messages fully, simply because of the amount of code people use to keep the message shorter!!

[Spot 4]

So in summary, what we all need is some TLC, which itself is a TLA, and you should not be CR if you dont know what a REMF, JAFFA and PONTI are:O

Im off for a bit of A cat NVG, TTFN

[mutleyfour]

Shouldnt that be QSY to some A cat NVG!

TTFN :ok:

[Bo Nalls]

Found this on http://www.gashbag.com which helps sum up the military over the last 1/2 century:


How the military has changed over the years:


1945 - Sgt's had a typewriter on their desks for doing daily reports.
2000 - Everyone has an internet access computer, and they wonder why no work is getting done.

1945 - We painted pictures of girls on airplanes to remind us of home.
2000 - They put the real thing in the cockpit.

1945 - You were taught to aim at your enemy and shoot him.
2000 - You spray 500 bullets into the brush, don't hit anything, and retreat because you're out of ammo.

1945 - Canteens were made of steel, and you could heat coffee or hot chocolate in them.
2000 - Canteens are made of plastic, you can't heat anything in them, and they always taste like plastic.

1945 - They collected enemy intelligence and analyzed it.
2000 - They collect your pee and analyze it.

1945 - Medals were awarded to heroes who saved lives at the risk of their own.
2000 - Medals are awarded to people who work at headquarters.

1945 - You slept in barracks like a soldier.
2000 - You sleep in a dormitory like a student.

1945 - We defeated powerful countries like Germany and Japan.
2000 - We come up short against Iraq and Yugoslavia.

1945 - The NAAFI had bargains for soldiers who didn't make much money.
2000 - You can get better and cheaper merchandise at the Co-op.

1945 - Mouth off to your sergeant and get pounded.
2000 - Do it now and get handed a 'time-out' card.

1945 - We could recognize the enemy by their Nazi helmets.
2000 - We are wearing the Nazi helmets.

1945 - We called the enemy names like 'Krauts' and 'Japs' because we didn't like them.
2000 - We call the enemy the 'opposing force' or 'aggressor' because we don't want to offend them.

1945 - Victory was declared when the enemy was defeated and he was broken.
2000 - Victory is declared when the enemy says he is sorry.

1945 - A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people.
2000 - A commander will put his people on the line to protect his butt.

1945 - Wars were planned and run by generals with lots of important victories.
2000 - Wars are planned by politicians with lots of equivocating.

1945 - We were fighting for freedom, and the country was committed to winning.
2000 - We don't know what we're fighting for, and the government is committed to social programs.

1945 - All you could think about was getting out and becoming a civilian again.
2000 - All you can think about is getting out and becoming a civilian.
:O :O :O :O

[bluntie]

That is absolutely spot on. Time to PVR!

[RubiC Cube]

The first 6 stations I served at have closed, another is rumoured to be closing soon.

All those nice overseas stations that I wanted to serve on have also closed.

We used to have sports afternoons (and Saturday morning parades).

We used to have collar studs not nose studs.

Having fun used to mean just that most of the time, not just getting pissed on a Friday night.

Most people were'nt bothered about promotion, now its the be all and end all for a lot of youngsters. (refer to para above about fun)

The Flying Order Book was a fraction of its current size.

We used to go on detachments and talk to people not drop bombs on them.

I was 30 years younger, infinitely poorer, not worried about pensions, could comfortably wear my number one uniform and looked forward to the next day's flying. Alas I am a lot richer, the pension should be adeqaute, don't have to bother about No 1 any more, and alas I am grounded.

[Mooney12]

Too true, I was just in a UAS and the FOB was massive and we were forced to read it many times. When it comes to lack of rules regarding flying then we should take a major leaf out of the USAF book.

On our summer camp last year in RAF conningsby, there were two F-15 pilots there, who were telling us how they do what they want most of the time, like fly low-level over lans end and generally have a laugh. We dared them to undertake a vertical climb after take-off and to our immense surprise they both did it. Charged down the run-way then climed vertical-amazing sight. They were back a few days later arguing about who did the best one!

Try getting an RAF pilot to do that-no chance!-lack of disoposible income- our pilots get 12 hours a month if their lucky!

[ShyTorque]

The most significant thing for me is that I'm no longer a member.

Judging by comments so far, the concerns I had and the reasons I left were completely justified. The decline, as far as I see it, began with "New Management Strategy". This was a way of making Squadron Commanders lead their men into battle by memo whilst deperately trying to make the accounts books balance, something for which they had no training and few admin staff to assist them.

Bo Nalls comment about commanders putting their people on the line to protect their butts sums it up nicely.

Read the Chinook Accident thread, a classic case in point.

[Scud-U-Like]

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. :hmm:

[mcdhu]

Slightly off thread, but marginally interesting nevertheless, if you are interested in how things were during WW2, have a read of 'The Right of the Line - The RAF in the European War 1939-1945' by John Terraine.

He starts with the staggering fact that, at its peak in WW2, the RAF had over one million officers and men and over 9000 aircraft.

Today's figures, anybody?

Cheers,
mcdhu

[Wholigan]

I was once asked a very similar question to the thread title at a garden party/BBQ at the home of an air commodore in HQ RAF Germany. He was sat at his table (in the garden) with a large collection of senior wheels from all sorts of NATO air forces. I happened to be passing his table with a large tray of drinks (no surprise there then), when he called me over and asked the question "Harrumph - now then Roger - harrumph - you've been in the RAF for quite a while. We were just talking about changes over the last couple of decades. What have you noticed that has changed significantly then?"

My reply was: "Well sir, in 1966 when you were my sqn cdr as a sqn ldr, you and your 2 flt lt flt cdrs could authorise me as a first tourist down to 50 feet low level anywhere in the UK low flying system and to 250 feet full combat -- not low-level evasion but full combat! Now - 20 years later - as a one-star - you are 2 ranks too low to even authorise me as a senior sqn ldr flt cdr to allow my pilots to fly down to 100 feet and nobody can authorise full combat down to 250 feet!"

The response was: "Harrumph - thank you Roger!" (the implied now f&&k off and don't cause any more trouble was easy to read).

(Hmmmmmm - wonder why my promotion stopped at the next level??? ;) :E :ok: ;) )

[reynoldsno1]

Charged down the run-way then climed vertical-amazing sight. They were back a few days later arguing about who did the best one!

ISTR 5 Sqn in Malta c.1976 having a rotation competition along similar lines... my only ride ever in a T5... awesome, despite the ergonomic nightmare in the cockpit!!

[Arkroyal]

Bo Nalls said
1945 - A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people.
2000 - A commander will put his people on the line to protect his butt.

The essence of change everywhere in that time period.

As ShyTorque says, read the Chinook thread and see if you still want to serve the Lion-leading Donkeys

[Mooney12]

The RAF has around 50,000 personnell now, not sure how many aircraft. I do know that they are ordering 232 Eurofighters though. Cuts need to stop. I say elect a conservative government!-haha

[ChrisEmpey]

Doubtful a conservative government would do the RAF any good.