Why didn't the RAF approve flicking the Bulldog?

[hugh flung_dung]

It's always struck me as odd that civilian Bulldogs are cleared for flick rolls but that they were banned when the aircraft were owned by HRH.
Anyone know why? Was it just an FI issue or something more interesting?

[212man]

My understanding, from the period I was flying them as a student (1985-87), was that it was a qusetion of excessive fatigue on the empenage assembly/rear tail boom. Given the relatively high GH sortie use these a/c had compare to the civillian market, it seems sensible. The g limits were lower too for the same reason.

Ever the by the book student, I tried it a few times and in reality it wasn't worth it. Although the a/c was a good basic aeros machine (I won the 87 Reid trophy in one, so am particularly fond of it), it can't really be considere as a truly aerobatic one. You couldn't really do much in it by pushing forward either: if inverted you couldn't get it to climb (it just mushed and then you ran out of your 8 seconds inverted time). I tried pushing out from a stall turn recovery and had a "I learned about flying from that" experience.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I looked after the type at BDN for a few years, but well after it was certified and I don't recall the question ever being asked. My best guess is that probably it was never asked for, so BDN never assessed it and thus it was never cleared.

G

[Feck]

I always thought it was because the fatigue monitor didn't measure rotational velocity, just +/-Gz (think I got that bit right!). Therefore any flicking led to an unquantifiable fatigue increase, particularly in the wing roots.

There probably isn't such a fatigue meter for light aircraft (at RAF budgets anyway), so it's all a bit academic.

We managed to break a wing spar doing the Cooper Trophy, must have been my slow roll recovery!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Interesting point. Certainly the Bloodknot's g-recording meter only recorded Nz (correct term), but whether that is the chicken or the egg is anybody's guess this many years down the line.

I'm still in touch socially with the RAF Engineer who brought the type online in the 70s, although he wasn't on the certification side. I'll pick his brains next we cross paths and see if he's any idea.

Bending a mainspar during Cooper Trophy competitions is arguable a way to lose lots of points! I take it that you didn't win.

G

[Bigears]

My moons ago, I was fortunate to be an Air Cadet 'Staff Cadet' at one of the AEF's. The Boss (and others) told very interesting stories. If I recollect correctly (this was a long time ago), the Boss was the RAF pilot who wrote the Handling Notes. He was subsequently asked to take up a Bulldog and try and replicate the actions of a pilot who got the aircraft into a position where he couldn't regain control and had to bail out, with the loss of the airframe (some job, eh!). He tried numerous times, but couldn't.
Now this might be a huge red herring, but perhaps the loss of control followed a flick, and the RAF were never happy with the unexplained loss, so never cleared it it for flicking?
Just a thought.........perhaps others will clarify/confirm.

[Feck]

G,

Nz, Nz, Nz, Nz. Got it.

We didn't bend the spar, it just developed some interesting cracks. Allegedly we were supposed to spread the load over the whole fleet, but erm, didn't. Oops.