CIVAIR - Information please

[George Tower]

Just been doing some reserach on the web about them and I have to say I'm not really any the wiser. May be anyone could share their knowledge and any experience of them.

Their website (www.civair.co.za) is not very informative. Another site (www.civairairways.com) even claims they fly to Athens and Madrid?????

Having asked around the fying clubs of Cape Town no one seems to have much knowledge of these guys, so any info would be appreciated.

GT

[Gunship]

Hallo GT,

Civair as per there web - site has not realized ... I have never seen a CIVAIR red and white airline or am I blind.

I do not know about any other operation other than their Red Allouette II ? and III (s?) buzzing on the Cape West Coast while I am diving and buzzing me in the Cape Mountains while doing an off road trip with my legal wife and kids .. :E

They do these picnic runs to the mountains in the Cape - that is a fact and do recue work.

I do not know if you followed the Francois Marais / Huey saga .. it came from Civair as far as I know.

Do a search here and you will find quite a few links, mostly about "the fight for THE WATERFRONT :ooh:

Can we not start up THAT thread again .. ROTORHEAD and FRANCOIS MARAIS has been awfully quite ... ok it is winter in the Cape and the aircraft are parked .. I pressume .. :rolleyes:

[francois marais]

Ja GUNNSSS, I don't think you want to start the HUEY saga again. Fact of the matter is the Huey is still flying. Has done 208 hours now incident & accident free. So the accident waiting to happen, fortunately did not happen. (Yet) Still flies most days from the Waterfront.

There are still a lot of politics in the Waterfront, and the Waterfront helipad is still occupied by the 4 operators. WIN Helicopters, Civair, Sport Helicopters & NAC/MAKANA.

Civair are our neighbours, but I unfortunately can not tell you much about them. All I know is that Marc Perkins is the Chief Pilot & Operations Manager.

George Tower, if you want to contact them, do it via email to Marc Perkins. His email address is [email protected]

He will be able to tell you everything you want to know.

Regards to you all. (Hoe's die skouer GUNS?)

François

[Gunship]

:p :ok: :p Ahaaa Francois Long time. So we can not discuss that beautiful Huey of yours. Well I have news for you. A friend flew in it and I think the report MUST be published on PPRUNE as :mad: happened .... :p

Great to hear you guys are still accident free.

Keep it that way !

Was it not a Civair Heli (Alouette ?) that "lost" a door over Cpae Town ?

I looked on the web sit and saw a Lear parked in front of a Civair hangar but not in Civair colours ?

If you like at their fleet it says nothing ?

Cheers and best to the best of CAPE WINE :ouch:

Shoulder is fine tx FM !

[Goffel]

Civair:Well they are the most professional bunch out there.They pay there pilots on time and NEVER have doors flying off,they also always fly with floats on their choppers AND they never slate the opposition.
Also they have a route to West Africa going at the moment in a 747 to Nigeria.
It is called the Nigerian 419 route.
By the way,they are also hiring pilots at the moment.
Starting salary is in the region of $5000.0 for a 1st officer.
Their entry requirements are very basic.
Give thenm a call.
There number is in the Cape Town directory.
The picture of slick Andy having dinner with Liz,baby was excellent.
By the way I was at the same dinner and we each paid a nominal sum to have our picture taken with her.That was in aid of charity.
The more you paid the more daring the photo.
Andy could only afford R100.00.
You must see mine.

[clipboard]

I have also never heard of Civair operating any jets to Europe. I am aware that they applied to the Air Service Licencing Council for a route to Europe, but I don't think anything has come of that yet.

Their website is rather misleading. CIVAIR.COM. What next? You can't book online, and there are no further information on the airline or airplanes. If you click on the fleet, there is nothing. I doubt if they own any big hardware. All they have on their site are a couple of promotional photos of a Lear Jet that had someting to do with some Johnny Walker promotion, and of the Boss with some celebrity.

I do recall though that they had one or two small fixed wing airplanes at CPT International. I think a King Air 90 and a Baron 55 that do the odd charter now and again. I have never ever seen any of them fly though. On each of my visits to CPT, the King Air was always spotted in the Maintenance Hangar at ABC. Either on jacks, or cowlings removed.

Latest rumour is that they are vacating their hangar rented from Falcon Air (Rembrandt Group) and that they will be moving to a smaller hangar which they intend erecting on the West side of the Airport next to the Red Cross & opposite CHC. One can only but speculate as to why they are vacating the big hangar. Maybe its to small for the hardware on order to fly the European routes???

[George Tower]

Francois,

Many thanks - I'll drop them a mail. According the what I have heard (this is a rumour network after all) a lot of their operations are in wet-leased aircraft although I have heard they own/operate a Kingair 90 and a Baron - apparently both are not in the best condition.

[Carnivor]

George Tower

What is your interest in Civair? Are you looking for a job? If you are, don't waste your time.

[Gunship]

As this is a rumour network (and while on the topic) .. back in SA a friend who works for Rembrandt group said they HAD to move a company out of their hangers.

I am sure it was Civ-Air ? Sorry if I am wrong :{ I hope not as I wish all the best .. to all ..

:ok:

[George Tower]

You obviously have a pretty poor opinion of them - care to give us the details. I should finish my CPL/IR by the end of October so I do have a slight interest in the smaller operators. Andy Cluver (Civair CEO) is a friend of an acquaintance of mine.

Flying for Civair is definitely not my ambition but most us have to do cr@ppy jobs at first to build the hours/experience to something which would be considered suitable for the big boys.

So my questions really are - where do they fly to, how frequently, in what a/c do they fly and do they use their own crews on their own a/c or are all their operations on wet-leased a/c?

Cheers

GT

[Deanw]

According to the current SA ZS- register:

Civair (Pty) Ltd
ZS-KSV Cessna 172RG

Civair Helicopters CC
ZS-HVH Hughs 369E
ZS-MUM Beech B90
ZS-NAZ Beech 58
ZS-RGG MBB BO-105-CBS

[George Tower]

Thanks Deanw

I've actually flown ZS-KSV before (and I didn't get paid for it either). Their fleet hardly suggests that they are serious about flying to Madrid and Athens as per one of their websites. It kind of reminds me of another famous Pprune character who was going to buy a shed-load of L1011s from Delta:p

[Carnivor]

ZS-HVH is unservicable. M/R Gearbox US.
ZS-RGG is unservicable. Its been parted out.

They operate two Alouette 3's that they dry lease from Denel.
ZS-RJW (Who lost a door in flight & based in Cape Town)
ZS-RJZ based somewhere near the Victoria Falls

ZS-RGH a Jetranger based in KZN (for the moment. Not doing much though)

ZS-HGO a Jetranger based in the Waterfront.

The King Air is Model 90, and in very poor condition. Lots of maintenance hassles.

The Baron I don't know about. (ZS-NAZ)
There is also a 55 Baron somewhere out there. ZS- Foxtrot something)

GT, with regards to where they fly and how frequently, I would'nt know. You need to establish that yourself. Its a known fact that their fixed wing business is dead, and that they don't do much out of Cape Town. They had a King Air 200 here on lease at some stage (end of last year) but that went back to its owners in JHB.

A friend of mine spoke to one of their AME's some time ago, and according to my friend, he said that the business was bad on the fixed wing side, that the airplanes were giving a lot of problems, and that it was a total waste of time.

GT, I also applied for a job there a few years ago. Big action at the time. Scheduled flights, Merlin's, King Air's, the whole toot. Big plans. It all died away pretty soon, and my CV probably ended up in file 13.

The last time I was near their hangar, was when Netcare 911 operated a Conquest out of CPT International, and one of the Civair pilots used to fly P2 on that. That is also some time ago. Apparently the Netcare pilots were not too happy with the Civair pilots, and there were some head bangings I believe. (Rumours, rumours, rumours!!!!)

GT, good luck with your CPL/IF. I can assure you, that if you need to start at the bottom, there are much better outfits in SA to start with. Try & get your Grade 3 Instructors, join a reputable school, and build your hours instructing. Most airlines prefer to employ pilots with training experience. Cheers.

[SHARALUMI]

Hey Goffel!!!

What stuff you're on boet? Is it only available in Slaapstad? Don't be shy and send some up to Johies. We need to get spaced out here too you know! ;)

SHARALUMI

[George Tower]

Carnivor,

Many thanks mate for candid and thorough observations. It seems to pretty much confirm the snippets of information I have heard from around the Cape re. Civair. I really do want my Grade lll instructors ASAP as well as I really do fancy instructing for a while although I also fancy flying something like a Baron whilst building up my experience for the airlines.

If you have any interesting info on charter operators based in CT I'd be grateful to know about it - admittedly it does seem that CT isn't the ideal place to look for work especially with low time/experience.

Cheer

GT

[Gunship]

GT,

My experience and what this board has taught me (not Inglish) is that J'burg / Pta is by far the best for training and possibilities of work.

43 Air and CPF and the likes are purely flying schools and I do not think you will find more than training in those areas (PE / George area).

Cheers and good luck !

Gunnss

[Gunship]

Lo Oke's,

Was this a Civair "rescue" ?



Rescue rangers: A member of the Melkbos NSRI is "rescued" after spending 96 hours on a raft in Canal Walk's Half Moon Bay, Cape Town, to raise funds for a new rescue base.



http://www.iol.co.za/data/picdb/7/3/picdb3eed7d3debde9

[George Tower]

Thanks Guns

I'm sure you will agree that Cape Town is the best place to live but pity it's not the aviation hub of SA. My last few posts have really been to test the water and see whats out there as I'm close to landing my CPL.

Thanks to every one for their advice, and opinions and I dare say I'll have more to ask you guys as time goes on.

Cheers

GT

[Gunship]

yes .. marc perkins ... seeing that you are a registered member of PPRUNE .. why do you not post here rather than hide behind your username and write cr@p little sobby stories on a Private Message to me ... why do you not say your say ....

When Francois Marais was attcked he did the same as you ... he registered under his own name and YES he did make his statements ... why are you hiding ?

Due to the fact that I do have b@lls ... I will not post your PM here .. but just a quick reminder.

Yes we know each other. If you are uncertain who I am - ask some of your fellow oke's working for you ! They all know me !

They have previousy asked to post stuff on their behalf .. which I did not by the way.

Why do you not rather deny all the rumours and make the facts known than mailing me a slanderous PM ? I pressume goffel aslo got one ... :E



You might find me surprisingly honest, up front and open to criticism!



Could have fooled me ... :yuk:

Those wanting Marc's username : marc perkins :yuk:

[Goffel]

:cool: Hi GT.
By now you will have realised that Civair is not the place to be.
Besides their doors are very very near to being shut completely.(mind you do they have any door,I think the last one is in the forest somewhere),anyways as I was saying,they are rumoured to be battling to pay a lot of bills.

They are in the process of a full on fight with a very high profile charter company with one of it's branches in Cape Town.
This "other" aviation company has it's lawyers talking to the man in charge of the Red and White Airline about it's money.
Apparently they have said "they cannot pay as there is no money"

Also a long line of others behind them also asking for money.
I have heard from certain people at the company that they are having difficulty in getting their salaries.(???).

But then again these are the same okies that tried to shut down the Huey extreme club.(Mind you that Huey is still flying.(How do I know.-- Well I saw my wife flashing her boobs at a helicopter in the back garden again this evening,so I knew it was the Huey flying by).

Their 90 is on blocks in the maitenance hanger at the mo.No money no fix.Simple.

As far as the head banging between their pilots and other pilots.Well that is not even debateable.
My one mate has first hand knowledge of that.

Gunns,I probably did receive something,but must admit to being rather stupid when it comes to computers.I have no idea how to open the private mail.
By the way I want to post my picture with Liz Hurley at that same dinner.See what my bucks bought me.Oooooooooh

So there GT.Time to consider your verdict.
But then again forget flying the chicks in Cape Town make up for the no flying.

[Goffel]

Eeeesch.
Whose just had their helicopter reposessed.Ow shame.All gone.
I suppose this is a quiz.
The wekest link. No more helicopter.
Guns even you can enter.:E

[clipboard]

This is after all a rumour network, and people express their thoughts and opinions as they desire.

QUOTE:
____________________________________________________

"You might find me surprisingly honest, up front and open to crticism"
____________________________________________________

Boy oh boy, you could have fooled me.

This boy does not like criticism! He is always right, and always know better.

Both him and his master are sadly driven by their egos.

I am not in the least bit surprised that he expressed his thoughts in a PM to GUNNS. Probably to defend his master. Boy would we love to see this mail. Come on GUNNS, post it!!!!

It is common knowledge in the aviation markets of CPT, JHB & KZN that Civair are experiencing some "temporary" cash flow restraints, that they are awaiting a big government cheque, and that their inconvenience will be resolved soon. Hopefully it will be resolved soon, for their sake and for the sake of all the good people that are employed by them.

The issue here though are; "If you want to give yourself out as toffee, you must expect to get chewed like a toffee".

If you want to be high profile, you must be able to keep up with the high profilers.

The Civair Master has never been good and dealing with issues himself, and have the habit of getting his "knights" to fend for him. (Remember the Rotorhead Huey saga & others to numerous to mention?) Therefore one can understand that Marc Perkins(MP) have been put up to dowse the rumours currently appearing on this forum, but instead of doing it on this forum, he chooses to attack a fellow pprune member by private message. This I find to be in poor taste and very immature, as instead of putting the record straight, he has now probably p1ssed the man off.

As fellow aviators, we are all keen to know what goes on in the aviation world, and rumours there will always be. So come on MP, tell us what's the gaff. (No emotions, no aggro's, just as it is.)

[marc perkins]

"The Gaff", Goffell, Gunship and Clipboard is as follows:

This thread was initiated through a query by George Tower regarding Civair. Quite obviously my "Master" (come on guys, get serious), has made some enemies in the industry in the past and obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions and responses!

Francois Marais was kind enough to refer any queries relating to Civair to me. This was done in a civil manner and respectfully so. Unfortunately Gunship posted a thread on the 11 June in response to the Francois thread where he had a dig at me! Talk about slander!!!

Quote "M :mad: c P:mad: ns- that is just a name- lets rather leave that out!" This just a part of the quote to which I was quite obviously surprised. There was no provocation or slander aimed at Gunship; in fact no posting on this thread by myself whatsoever.

For those observant enough, check page 1 of this thread, posting by Gunship 11 June 2003 13h19. Strange how this piece was last edited on the 5 July 2003 22h32 after his latest response which was sent on the 5 July 2003 17h50. No mention of the original dig at my name. Why would Gunship remove this?

This now mysteriously missing, unwarranted and unprovoked dig at my name, did offend me and hence the private message to Gunship. Gunship who's identity I now do know, but still don't ever recall meeting!

The private message was quite simply an appeal to Gunship to "Put up" the issues he has with me in person or "shut up"! I still see no need to slander my name on this website. Who's really hiding behind namesakes' and who's really hiding behind some clearly pent up personal issues?

Quite simply, if Gunship has a personal problem with me (for whatever reason I might have offended him), then take it up with me and not all over this website.

Furthermore Bear this in mind:

Whoever my so-called "Master" might have offended, this should not reflect poorly on myself or any of his employees. We depend on Civair to make our living, and all of us take our work seriously, and try our best to do it in the most professional manner possible.

Any comment I have ever made on this forum has always been in my name and reflects my opinions and not Civairs. I have always stuck to the facts, and have never taken a dig at any individual. Unlike others, I am prepared to stand by my name and defend it if necessary.

Hence the decision to keep the issue between Gunship and myself with the private message to hopefully resolve whatever grievances he might have had with me.

"Sob story; slander; attack on a fellow ppruner!!!"

Please Gentlemen, who's fooling who? See Gunships sudden editing of the thread in question! Is this the true nature of ppruning or just Gunship stirring the pot again!

As for the rumours, well, once again get serious gentlemen. It has been common knowledge that Civair has been cash-strapped, like so many others, at this time of the year. No surprises I'm afraid. Speak to any of the helicopter and fixed-wing charters in the Cape Town area who are all taking some form of strain, some even scaling down.

Exactly how serious Civair's situation is is my "Master's" business and none of mine. I am only his Operations Manager, and not his Financial Advisor. However for the sake of all the employees at Civair, I hope and trust that he pulls the business through this difficult period.

PS. And Goffel, to my knowledge, no repossessions yet and no Private, slanderous attacks on You to date either. Oh yes and Gunship Civair only operates red Alouette's, not white one's.

[clipboard]

The boy's out the box!! Good wun MP.

As the Operations Manager of Civair it is very noble of you to defend your master, as you rightly indicated that you are dependent on him for your livelyhood. Does that mean because you are dependent on him, that he can bullsh1t you, indoctrinate you, manipulate you, and through all of that you choose to remain loyal? Would it not be better to demand the truth from the master, as with the truth you can defend your company so much better. People will have a great deal more respect for you if you defend your company in a truthful manner, rather than cover up for Mr. C. A lot of people in the aviation industry has been done by this man, and not many people have kind words for him. Now that your little dilemma has become public knowledge, how do you feel? Do you not feel a little bit betrayed after all you have done for the company? Watch out boy, you're going to get bitten!

A lot of people will now wish harm upon Civair, and a lot of people will smile and think that the man got what he deserved. Where does that leave you? It is my information from various sources close to you in FACT that things have not been well for a long time. It is also rumoured that Mr. C informed a public meeting that he owns all the aircraft that he operates, and that you endorsed that, in spite of the fact that your Alo's are leased from Denel? Do you guys really own them? I mean is such a statement credible? What's he trying to prove? More BS?

Lets face it Marc, this little saga is going to continue for a long time, and at the end of the day, a lot of harm has been done. Cluver can threaten whoever he likes, its not going to get him anywhere. This is serious stuff, and you're going to have to do a lot of damage control. Are you aware of the fact that temporary insolvency may affect your AOC?

I wish you well in your dark hour, but you should wind your neck in a bit and not take your frustrations out on Guns. Good luck!

[Gunship]

Oh yes and Gunship Civair only operates red Alouette's, not white one's.

Tx MP, I will update my black book. Condolences. :sad:

[Goffel]

Thanks Mr MP for the vote of confidence of no personal slanderous attacks on me yet.
Yes it looks like you are in the middel of a full on war.
The problem comes is your boss (or whatever you would like him to be called) has quite happily shafted so many people up the you know what hole with a pine-apple and no cream to soothe it.
I for one still have that acheing feeling.It was enlarged to a great proportion that I shall never forget.
It also cost my family a great deal of financial heartache and was done to me with a great smile.(and behind my back)
So yes my part in this glee is wholley (excuse the pun) personal.
I have seen many a pilot,rotary and fixed wing and engineer walk away only to have to cut losses just to keep sane.
I know you are also sitting in a predicament,not only personal but also financially.
Maybe it is time you did what a couple of your fellow aviators have done and knock on doors quickly before the market closes it's doors again.
My CV pile gets bigger every day.
I am sure your boss might just weather some of the storm this time,he does have other intrests (balloon and chopper) out of the country.
But really when the noose starts getting this tight,I have seen many a ring open and the fluid flowing.
At the end of it you have to look your family in the eye and say,"no money to pay the bond"
The boss has already said,"no money to pay salaries".
Put your hand out in front of you and watch whether it shakes or not.
Thats the test.

[clipboard]

:confused: Some of Civair's major creditors met today to discuss the plan of action next Tuesday, the 22nd of July to see what can be done, whether the company must be liquidated, or whether there will be a fair chance to get paid. Good luck guys:ok: